Just coming to realize what you meant by 75% is stacked from 50% ranged buff + RA hits faster? so if multiplicative which i guess it is, will be more like 60% on all ranged. It shouldn't affect anything melee. Initial numbers taken from melee MI and melee WK where dagger threat don't apply. We still have to see how it compares on a ranged WK vs melee MI dps, but that's harder to work with in theory mainly because we've never seen a ranged dps built WK to base anything on.
Will need test CoS spam + DHS runs vs DF runs, log completion times, in solo, party, buffed and unbuffed with current state of the game, maybe at least have a % clue how far apart ranged WK is from melee MI. Then we can properly work out if 60-75% increase in that area is too much or if barely sufficient.
It is actually the same, in PvE you always have CA so you dont need that passive for that and in PvP MI doesnt use IA either. I can check with others who are better with numbers to give a more balanced numbers suggestions. MI has 25% for 5 secs in PvE and 20% for 5 secs in PvP. RA alone needs to be lower than that due to buff from DT or RA+VP can be around same as that (20-25%). Edit: As you can see it is complicated if we make it in a different way to get the buffs and hard to find the fitting numbers. That's why i suggested in beginning 10% for 10 secs from RA and 10% for 5 secs from VP and nothing from DT but since we made DT buff which is quite a big number we have to struggle now to find a fitting number for RA or RA+VP, whatever is preferred more.
How would a VP buff work? I think now it's debuff is per target, very mark-like. Does that increase personal damage on one target marked, or increase your damage in general like GWF hidden daggers? Single target personal buff is too weak in an AoE environment, but can be overpowered if the multistacking glitch of VP is not fixed.
Edit: As you can see it is complicated if we make it in a different way to get the buffs and hard to find the fitting numbers. That's why i suggested in beginning 10% for 10 secs from RA and 10% for 5 secs from VP and nothing from DT but since we made DT buff which is quite a big number we have to struggle now to find a fitting number for RA or RA+VP, whatever is preferred more.
Adding flat damage buffs to random powers like 10% VP + 10% RA + etc etc is a bad idea, just stating from well known reworks what a random +% here +% there did to GWF and again to PvP GF. You risk stacking all the right buffs together which either falls short or overshoots balance.
Besides players should all agree that adding plain buffs like that is basically buying pink sleeves instead of brown. Why bother with WK when its just a campfire away to switch loadouts, let us all be Master Infiltrators with an original II+IA than be WK wearing a different-colored shirt.
But well, then if you overshoot that balance which is another possibility, you'll be the MI wearing the different colored shirt.
@rustlord same as II works on daily activation just this works on first VP activation which is marking. Marking the target for vengeance increases all your damage by 10% for 5 secs. RA to equal to 10% as well, that is 20% boost for 5 secs and 5 secs after it is 10% boost, balanced imo since MI is 25% for 5 sec and rest is 5% increase. Plus VP+RA can be paired with DT as well. Ranged attacks are weaker so i guess DT suggestion is fine but still should be checked if 50% is the right number.
I have a major concern with VP involving a longstanding bug that it multiprocs things. The better your latency (in other words less lag) the more times it multiprocs. I've tested it to;
proc Shadowy Opportunity 3-4 x Loastmauth 4-8 x Oppressive 4-6 x and various enchants way more than it should. I worry that it will also multi stack that buff, giving WK 10% x (how ever many stacks) and saying that "it can't stack with itself" is easier said than done, because see feats Cunning Ambusher + One with the Shadows. They stack on themselves resulting in unprecedented boost too. judging from how long VP multiproc has been around tells me it's not an easy bug to tackle down
@rustlord Yes, i was suggesting with idea that VP multiprocing is fixed. If it stays as is its dangerous giving any buff to it. Maybe staying with DT and RA as only buffs is better. RA attack speed increase to equal 15% buff for 10 secs and DT to be missing buff which is needed to be on pair with MI? Also need to sleep lol, we will continue this discussion later and i hope we reached some point where we can wrap this up, if not maybe a right suggestion comes in the meantime.
Yep, and thanks for bouncing off some really cool ideas! Sounds like a wrap for me with this thread as well. Will be a lot of fun testing whatever goes through
Concluding for Whisperknife, only two things! Slow clunky cast times, behind on general dps -> Razor Action: attack speed up Weak ranged damage -> Dagger Threat: ranged damage up
Duration on proposed RA be brought down to 5 seconds to be more in line with Invisible Infiltrator buff; no other damage buffs needed. Consider double bleeds from DT/DhS + DF and then RA buff, that's all good and satisfactory
I dont know if Bleed stack skipping can be compared to PotB but lets not bother with that anymore and lets try to wrap it up. If everyone agrees for DF to be changed so any hit of the 6 Flurry hits can apply Bleed effect, a single Bleed equal in damage to current 10 (11) to remove the problematic stacking, we are done with DF. Are we in agreement for VP marking to increase damage by 10% for 5secs?
p.s. Dev's have no idea what all the abbreviations mean (according to the livestream) so you might want to at least mention it fully once at the start of your posts (higher succes rate of them understanding the suggestion, especially when the thread gets longer and longer)
I was worried about the abbreviations as well, I've also heard before that the devs aren't as familar with TR partly because fewer of them play one. If this is true, this is likely one of the contributing reasons why the TR has gone so long without a rework in the first place. A poor understanding of the TR would lead to the devs being more hesitant to touch this class than others and more likely to mess something up when they do try something. Whatever goes into the simplified version of our requests will need to be explained as though we are talking to members of a different class.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
I'm glad y'all pointed out the problems with the earlier suggestion of making the bleeds proc on the last DF flurry hit. If you have to cancel your DF part way though, if your opponent shifts away before the flurry completes, or if the final flurry hit skips, you don't get any bleeds. These issues never crossed my mind so thank you for pointing that out.
I like the idea of giving WK a feature that speeds up their attacks, that's a really cool mechanic and as @rustlord pointed out, would help WK a lot if we can make it work. I also liked the idea of giving the attack speed increase to the scoundrel tree but we probably can only do one or the other without causing problems.
Regardless of which kind of TR gets this attack speed increase, there will still be some attacks that need speed increases doled out on a case by case basis. The problem of delayed damage/slow attacks is a universal issue for all TRs and not all TRs will get the feature you two are working on. Gloaming cut is an MI only power and it needs a big speed increase applied to it directly. The universally available powers that have had speed increases sugested include impact shot, shadow strike, sly flourish, and courage breaker (its not vital that these ones get individual speed increases but worth mentioning). If scoundrel got the speed increase then disheartening strike and possibly other whisperknife powers will probably need speed increases. Unfortunately, this means the attack speed increase you two are working on would not save the devs the trouble of needing to speed up individual attacks. It would however be a great way to help tackle the issues with WK or scoundrel not dishing out enough damage so the devs still have a good reason to consider implementing this.
DF has had many sugestions pitched for it including increasing the speed of the flurry. As mentioned earlyer, increasing the flurry speed may result in more skipped hits. This means that in order to prevent the speed increase from messing up DF, some other ajustment needs to be made. I see two possible solutions to this: Idea 1: exempt DF from the speed increase feature altogether. Idea 2: Fix the DF skipping problem or at least change DF in a way that keeps the skipping from causing too much trouble.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
Like you said @rustlord , i assumed stealthed ITC is more a PvP thing Also can you tell us from your PvP perspective what is considered as main problem of TR class? Question goes to all PvP TR's. Maybe we can offer a solid suggestion. What would take to fix it?
Your question appears to be very general and I doubt the answer will be new information for you, but here it goes as promised:
Our #1 PVP problems in a nutshell:
Our lack of build variety is a huge problem. We only have a narrow selection of powers that are still potent enough to keep using in PVP. Almost all TRs are built to gain their daily powers as often as possible and the most efficient ways to play TR in PVP are as CC team support, one shot killer, or both. We stack almost the same stats as eachother with only minor differences. Whisperknife is weaker than master infiltrator and saboteur and executioner are stronger than scoundrel. Any other way you try to play ends up weaker and less efficient than this meta.
Currently, TR overall damage is very watered down in PVP. 99% of TR powers cannot dish out enough damage for TRs to rely on so they have to turn to shocking execution in order to kill efficiently. Many opponents a TR would struggle to make a dent in and often aren't able to kill at all without SE can be killed by their peers in other classes, often in only a few hits. GFs, HRs, GWFs, CWs, and SWs are all better damage dealers than TRs.
Courage breaker and shocking execution are the only two powers in the TR arsenal that are too strong in PVP. These two powers are problematic but they are also our life support right now. The TR class must be stabilized in the form of sufficient buffs/reworks to our other powers/feats before CB and SE can be nerfed.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
No nerfs.....
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
SE does not need a nerf applied to it directly though that is an option. An indirect way to make SE reasonable is to go with an expanded version of your earlyer sugestion and make it so certain buffs cannot apply to SE. Your own sugestion is still techically a nerf since it tones down SE, its just not a direct nerf to the power.
Unfortunatly CB will probably need something more direct applied to it in pvp. The effects of CB are fine but the durration means you can keep it up against a single target 100% of the time if you build for cooldown reduction/AP gain. I am less sure of the exact fix CB should get but some decent proposals have been put fowards for it.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited May 2017
No nerfs.... pvp is a team based thing... If you are getting dominated by a cc setup tr then your team is not helping properly... or you like to stand in smoke.
Boost your deflection and no cc skill can hinder you Boost hp and your hp gain from boons will make you damn near unkillable.
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
My last experiences with Df and Bosses in FBI and eSP, good (sure not excellent but still good) buff/debuff group with DoDc, AcDc, Gf, Trapper Hr and me as Tr....
Lets say it more nicely...it was tedious.
Hatti 6 Bleeding Stacks....8 Stacks...C'mon give me an 10 now...do it.... Hatti interrupts me or flies up to the sky..so again 2 stacks...6....Hatti is taking a break on his rock..next try 6 stacks...8stacks....10stacks "Hooray i can go all out"....Hattis is taking a break on the rock.... Me: This cannot be *smashin head against the desk constantly*
Trötel i mean Turtle
4stacks...6stacks...interrupt through slam...next try....4 stacks...8 stacks...10 stacks Hoora....wait Turtle is going to a swimbreak maybe springbreak next try 6 stacks...8 stacks aaaaand grandslam.....next try 8 stacks...yes yes omg i get an orgas... Turtle is going swimming maybe she is hungry and needs some fishes who knows...next try Turtle... comes up and died instantly maybe some of the fishes were not healthy for her. Me: *Smashes head again against the desk* Meanwhile i have a feeling of an nice headache..but i am fine.
Drufi Long story short...constantly interrupted because of her "i smash everything away from me" "call of winter" attack "Cat at 4am mode". My desk looks a little bit as if an lunatic Lumberjack had some sort of "adult time" with them...
eSP second Boss: 4 stacks..6 stacks...Me constantly pressing my mouse button..give me an 10 now god please... oh i am stoned (giggle) bc i was to aware to get an 10 (i know it sounds like an Gambler on an Table in Las Vegas) and overlooked the attack. So he throws me away an i was dead.... After the (dunno exactly) 10th or 12th try i left very frustrated (and my headache was as high as the Mount Everest) our party replacing me with an allie member so that my guildmates could finish the run.. So i made for me the decission that i am refuse to run eSP with my Tr as long as if i only have an "Hamster" Chance to build up Bleeding stacks...i am that kind of tired and frustrated about that!
Also i would not read or hear the uproar in the community if you the devs made the decission to give (some examples) other classes only a "chance" like chilling stacks for Cw, only a "chance" for debuff to Dc, a "chance" to IBS for Gwf, a "chance" to mark to Gf, a "chance" to curse to SW and so on... Why..please tell me why..you gave us Tr for one of our main attacks some kind of an "chance"?
@silktrocity 1. We already have a tool to remove stealth loss from incoming damage, its part of the SoD package. That being said I wouldn't mind seeing that aspect put somewhere where any spec can utilize it. A heroic feat perhaps? The removal of stealth loss from incoming damage being taken away from SoD would require something else b added. I think adding a removal of stealth loss from 'outgoing' damage would work well. As you said, and I also touched on in an earlier post, Stealth - when compared to other class tab-powers - is vastly under-performing.
2. I feel the cool-down on Lashing would be justified if it actually hit hard. I've done many tests on dummies and such to figure things out and I have a pretty good idea how much dmg a well executed Lashing can do, in my case 500-750k on average. The problem arises when in a group with all those extra buffs my Lashing's rarely break 1.5mil (more often than not doing less than 1mil for some reason), while other classes seem to get single target hits for 3-5 times more than Lashing. Occasionally Lashing will hit for more, 2-3mil; but it still falls short compared to other classes single target nukes. I've gone on record many times saying that something feels 'wrong' with Lashing, that the damage it does just falls completely flat. Especially when you consider that long cool-down and the high base damage.
3. I always came to the conclusion that the logical reason why TR didn't have an AOE at-will was because they were designed to be a single target focused class. A boss-killer. Most signs point to this except the fact that most of the other classes equal or out-perform TR in single target DPS while being much more efficient in AOE's as well. I see no reason to try to re-focus TR's into being a jack of all trades, I would much rather see TR have a significant advantage in single target DPS while being less effective in AOE DPS.
4. Any change to how SoD works can't have a cool-down built into it. With the correct rotation under ideal circumstances it is possible to maintain 90-100% uptime on SoD. Anything that adds a cool-down would result in a net-loss. I think removing the trigger would simplify everything. Rather than a debuff being applied then 50% of dmg done over 6 seconds being applied at the end one could simply turn it into a buff. When you deal damage from stealth, for the next 6 seconds you deal an extra 50% of damage dealt as piercing damage. This should in theory equal the same amount of damage we can currently get under ideal circumstances but is less punishing in practice. It would take away from the 'feel' of SoD, which I actually like, but would make it more viable in the current state of the game.
5. Indeed sir, indeed.
1. No. We do not have anything in place to prevent the loss of stealth when we take damage. I'd be more then happy to create video footage showcasing huge chunks of stealth depleting while I'm being attacked if you'd like? Farming the AoE heavy River district makes this far more blatent and annoying then any other content in the game. 2. You make a good point. There are numerous directions they could take regarding this encounter. They could incorporate a debuff to it that lingers on enemies, they could also give it a bleed effect to act as another DoT. The simplest thing they could do at the very least is increase the base damage of the encounter and keep the cool down the same (I'd be fine with that.) 3. Good point. I have to agree. 4. Another good idea. Excited to see what the developers choose to do given the vast amount of feedback.
Lady Vayo TR - Silky OP - Lord Reven DC (retired) - Lady Luck HR (retired)
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Too much feedback = bible of feedback.. Very few of us have time or interest to read the entire bible.
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Very few of us have time or interest to read the entire bible.
We are aware that this thread is very dense and very lengthy. @blur mentioned that a shortened version of our feedback is in the works to help the devs figure out what to prioritize. Here is his exact wording:
@rustlord A new thread will be made as a summary of all helpful ideas and to help the devs to easier find what they need. A lot of discussion is going on here which for them is not useful and its hard to navigate through 10+ pages of comments and spot things which would help.
Please do continue to discuss here in this thread and lets try to keep the new thread clean (when it is posted).
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
@talon1970 I always love your colorful descriptions of frustrating situations which follow TR class I agree with everything you said, every single one of those bosses is frustrating to fight as a TR because they are not bleed-friendly, especially 2nd mSP boss. Simply game moves in one direction while TR moves in the opposite direction.
@trgluestickz I dont know about Stealth loss thing. It seems unfair for PvP since there are perma-Stealth builds. Opponents cant see you and if they cant get you out of Stealth even by damaging you its unbalanced mechanic. It totally makes sense if you take damage to lose Stealth. To make it more balanced it could be done in form of Tenacious Concealment. It would at least force us to use one Passive slot to gain that ability. Currently from what i saw TC doesnt prevent complete Stealth loss so it could be adjusted to do so.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Betawinter.... (getting stressed out about changes to come)
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Make it so that "stealth loss" still happens when taking damage IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY IN STEALTH, even more so than it does now, because ticks of 100 damage or AoE damage barely does anything to unstealth rogues in PvP. But the stealth regeneration while you are OUT OF stealth should be at a regular pace despite taking damage. Say, how does it feel if taking damage drained your Determination / Divinity / Soul Sparks? Ask a TR, we know!
Feats and passives like TenCon could be made to increase the regeneration speed, but no more being unable to resteatlh during combat because you're constantly being bombarded.
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @rustlord said: > Back at this thread it seems! > > @blur@trgluestickz > > Make it so that "stealth loss" still happens when taking damage IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY IN STEALTH, even more so than it does now, because ticks of 100 damage or AoE damage barely does anything to unstealth rogues in PvP. But the stealth regeneration while you are OUT OF stealth should be at a regular pace despite taking damage. Say, how does it feel if taking damage drained your Determination / Divinity / Soul Sparks? Ask a TR, we know! > > Feats and passives like TenCon could be made to increase the regeneration speed, but no more being unable to resteatlh during combat because you're constantly being bombarded. > > Quick thought, pretty drafty, any thoughts?
This is why I chose sab path
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
@silktrocity 1. We already have a tool to remove stealth loss from incoming damage, its part of the SoD package. That being said I wouldn't mind seeing that aspect put somewhere where any spec can utilize it. A heroic feat perhaps? The removal of stealth loss from incoming damage being taken away from SoD would require something else b added. I think adding a removal of stealth loss from 'outgoing' damage would work well. As you said, and I also touched on in an earlier post, Stealth - when compared to other class tab-powers - is vastly under-performing.
1. No. We do not have anything in place to prevent the loss of stealth when we take damage. I'd be more then happy to create video footage showcasing huge chunks of stealth depleting while I'm being attacked if you'd like? Farming the AoE heavy River district makes this far more blatent and annoying then any other content in the game.
Part of the Shadow of Demise package removes stealth regen interruption due to incoming damage. Spec into MI Exec and play for a bit, then spec out of it and you'll immediately notice the difference. It would be nice to have that function placed somewhere where it is useful to a variety of spec's, but saying it's not there at all is false.
Semantics aside, we can all agree that we need more tools to minimize/remove loss of stealth and stealth regen interuption from both incoming and outgoing damage.
Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
We have feats that regeneration stealth as we dodge/roll.. I use this feat and others in combination to maximize my stealth, because even shadow strike and sab capstone don't fill stealth bar if you are taking damage
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I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
@trgluestickz I dont know about Stealth loss thing. It seems unfair for PvP since there are perma-Stealth builds. Opponents cant see you and if they cant get you out of Stealth even by damaging you its unbalanced mechanic. It totally makes sense if you take damage to lose Stealth. To make it more balanced it could be done in form of Tenacious Concealment. It would at least force us to use one Passive slot to gain that ability. Currently from what i saw TC doesn't prevent complete Stealth loss so it could be adjusted to do so.
@blur , I just took another look at @silktrocity 's original suggestion. I think we partially misunderstood the suggestion @silktrocity put forwards, it looks like we forgot to distinguish stealth "loss" and stealth "regeneration" from each other when analyzing his suggestion. He did not say to make it so taking damage can no longer knock you out of stealth, only that taking damage no longer stalls your stealth regen. Here is his original wording:
1. I'd really like to see our stealth regeneration stop being penalized when taking damage and instead have a more consistent regeneration even if the speed itself has to be lowered to balance this out. The introduction of the riverfront zone and the numerous AoE spamming enemies has really brought this ongoing issue out of the darkness and into the light. I do not think any other class mechanic is hampered in such a way and ours should be no different.
That said, I just checked and tenacious concealment and shadow of demise have more differences in their wording than I realized: Tenacious Concealment: "reduce stealth "loss" from incomming damage." Shadow of Demise: "your stealth "regeneration" is no longer interrupted when taking damage" As mentioned in previous posts, both of these do not do exactly what their tooltips say they are suposed to. If the actual mechanics of these 2 powers matched their tooltips exactly, then these 2 powers would differ from each other considerably.
@silktrocity 's suggestion is basically SOD's literal tooltip applied to all TR stealth instead of just executioner TR stealth.
After taking a closer look at his suggestion, I stand by what I said before, his suggestion will not be unfair in PVP.
Make it so that "stealth loss" still happens when taking damage IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY IN STEALTH, even more so than it does now, because ticks of 100 damage or AoE damage barely does anything to unstealth rogues in PvP. But the stealth regeneration while you are OUT OF stealth should be at a regular pace despite taking damage. Say, how does it feel if taking damage drained your Determination / Divinity / Soul Sparks? Ask a TR, we know!
Feats and passives like TenCon could be made to increase the regeneration speed, but no more being unable to resteatlh during combat because you're constantly being bombarded.
Quick thought, pretty drafty, any thoughts?
As explained above, it appears your suggestion matches what @silktrocity said all along and I agree with you. Making it so stealth regen is no longer interrupted when taking damage is an excellent idea as long as you do still lose stealth from taking damage while in stealth.
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
That said, I just checked and tenacious concealment and shadow of demise have more differences in their wording than I realized: Tenacious Concealment: "reduce stealth "loss" from incomming damage." Shadow of Demise: "your stealth "regeneration" is no longer interrupted when taking damage" As mentioned in previous posts, both of these do not do exactly what their tooltips say they are suposed to. If the actual mechanics of these 2 powers matched their tooltips exactly, then these 2 powers would differ from each other considerably.
CORRECTION TO SOME OF MY PAST POSTS:
In a previous post, I said Shadow of Demise currently works the same way Tenacious Consealment does instead of Shadow of Demise doing what it's tooltip says it does. This turned out to be incorrect, I just tested the differences between Tenacious Consealment and Shadow of Demise on preview server. These were my findings:
Normally, when your stealth gage is recharging, and you take damage, two things happen to your stealth gage simultaneously: #1 your stealth regeneration is interrupted (your stealth stops recharging for a few seconds) #2 You lose a chunk of your stealth regeneration progress (your stealth recharge progress jumps down a little)
When I tested Shadow of Demise, #2 still occurs when you take damage but #1 does not. This means that SOD does in fact do exactly what the tooltip says it does, your stealth regeneration is no longer interrupted when taking damage. The reason SOD is underwhelming enough that we thought it didn't match the tooltip is because SOD doesn't stop your stealth recharge progress from being depleted by incomming damage.
Tenacious Concealment when I tested it, appears to not work at all. Even after a couple hours of testing, I could not tell the difference between slotting it and unslotting it. I will need to test it again later with some more precise stuff to be sure. Theoretically, when you take damage, #1 and #2 should still occur but #2's effects should be reduced. It should also reduce how much stealth you lose when you take damage while stealthed.
Now that the true cause of TC and SOD's lameness has been diagnosed, here is an update to @silktrocity 's idea: Your stealth meter will take a little longer to recharge than it does currently. Your stealth regeneration will no longer be interrupted when you take damage. When your stealth bar is recharging, taking damage no will longer deplete your stealth regeneration progress. Taking damage while stealthed will still deplete your stealth the way it does currently.
Post edited by trgluestickz on
-- PVP Rogue, --[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]-- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin) Ingame Handle: trgluestickz Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563 Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud Platform: PC
We have feats that regeneration stealth as we dodge/roll.. I use this feat and others in combination to maximize my stealth, because even shadow strike and sab capstone don't fill stealth bar if you are taking damage
That's what I do with my EXE. Not the biggest fan of internal cooldowns and certainly not having my stealth refresh on a timer. Several mods back I ended up building for unlimited dodges, stealth gain + uninterrupted regen, that bit works but maybe cus I'm just dodging like hell I barely take damage to deplete my bar.
Now that the true cause of TC and SOD's lameness has been diagnosed, here is an update to @silktrocity 's idea: Your stealth meter will take a little longer to recharge than it does currently. Your stealth regeneration will no longer be interrupted when you take damage. When your stealth bar is recharging, taking damage no will longer deplete your stealth regeneration progress. Taking damage while stealthed will still deplete your stealth the way it does currently.
Comments
Will need test CoS spam + DHS runs vs DF runs, log completion times, in solo, party, buffed and unbuffed with current state of the game, maybe at least have a % clue how far apart ranged WK is from melee MI. Then we can properly work out if 60-75% increase in that area is too much or if barely sufficient.
I can check with others who are better with numbers to give a more balanced numbers suggestions. MI has 25% for 5 secs in PvE and 20% for 5 secs in PvP. RA alone needs to be lower than that due to buff from DT or RA+VP can be around same as that (20-25%).
Edit: As you can see it is complicated if we make it in a different way to get the buffs and hard to find the fitting numbers. That's why i suggested in beginning 10% for 10 secs from RA and 10% for 5 secs from VP and nothing from DT but since we made DT buff which is quite a big number we have to struggle now to find a fitting number for RA or RA+VP, whatever is preferred more.
Besides players should all agree that adding plain buffs like that is basically buying pink sleeves instead of brown. Why bother with WK when its just a campfire away to switch loadouts, let us all be Master Infiltrators with an original II+IA than be WK wearing a different-colored shirt.
But well, then if you overshoot that balance which is another possibility, you'll be the MI wearing the different colored shirt.
Ranged attacks are weaker so i guess DT suggestion is fine but still should be checked if 50% is the right number.
I have a major concern with VP involving a longstanding bug that it multiprocs things. The better your latency (in other words less lag) the more times it multiprocs. I've tested it to;
proc Shadowy Opportunity 3-4 x
Loastmauth 4-8 x
Oppressive 4-6 x
and various enchants way more than it should. I worry that it will also multi stack that buff, giving WK 10% x (how ever many stacks) and saying that "it can't stack with itself" is easier said than done, because see feats Cunning Ambusher + One with the Shadows. They stack on themselves resulting in unprecedented boost too. judging from how long VP multiproc has been around tells me it's not an easy bug to tackle down
Maybe staying with DT and RA as only buffs is better. RA attack speed increase to equal 15% buff for 10 secs and DT to be missing buff which is needed to be on pair with MI? Also need to sleep lol, we will continue this discussion later and i hope we reached some point where we can wrap this up, if not maybe a right suggestion comes in the meantime.
Concluding for Whisperknife, only two things!
Slow clunky cast times, behind on general dps -> Razor Action: attack speed up
Weak ranged damage -> Dagger Threat: ranged damage up
Duration on proposed RA be brought down to 5 seconds to be more in line with Invisible Infiltrator buff; no other damage buffs needed. Consider double bleeds from DT/DhS + DF and then RA buff, that's all good and satisfactory
Whatever goes into the simplified version of our requests will need to be explained as though we are talking to members of a different class.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
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Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
I'm glad y'all pointed out the problems with the earlier suggestion of making the bleeds proc on the last DF flurry hit. If you have to cancel your DF part way though, if your opponent shifts away before the flurry completes, or if the final flurry hit skips, you don't get any bleeds. These issues never crossed my mind so thank you for pointing that out.
I like the idea of giving WK a feature that speeds up their attacks, that's a really cool mechanic and as @rustlord pointed out, would help WK a lot if we can make it work. I also liked the idea of giving the attack speed increase to the scoundrel tree but we probably can only do one or the other without causing problems.
Regardless of which kind of TR gets this attack speed increase, there will still be some attacks that need speed increases doled out on a case by case basis. The problem of delayed damage/slow attacks is a universal issue for all TRs and not all TRs will get the feature you two are working on.
Gloaming cut is an MI only power and it needs a big speed increase applied to it directly.
The universally available powers that have had speed increases sugested include impact shot, shadow strike, sly flourish, and courage breaker (its not vital that these ones get individual speed increases but worth mentioning).
If scoundrel got the speed increase then disheartening strike and possibly other whisperknife powers will probably need speed increases.
Unfortunately, this means the attack speed increase you two are working on would not save the devs the trouble of needing to speed up individual attacks. It would however be a great way to help tackle the issues with WK or scoundrel not dishing out enough damage so the devs still have a good reason to consider implementing this.
DF has had many sugestions pitched for it including increasing the speed of the flurry. As mentioned earlyer, increasing the flurry speed may result in more skipped hits. This means that in order to prevent the speed increase from messing up DF, some other ajustment needs to be made. I see two possible solutions to this:
Idea 1: exempt DF from the speed increase feature altogether.
Idea 2: Fix the DF skipping problem or at least change DF in a way that keeps the skipping from causing too much trouble.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Our #1 PVP problems in a nutshell:
Our lack of build variety is a huge problem. We only have a narrow selection of powers that are still potent enough to keep using in PVP. Almost all TRs are built to gain their daily powers as often as possible and the most efficient ways to play TR in PVP are as CC team support, one shot killer, or both. We stack almost the same stats as eachother with only minor differences. Whisperknife is weaker than master infiltrator and saboteur and executioner are stronger than scoundrel. Any other way you try to play ends up weaker and less efficient than this meta.
Currently, TR overall damage is very watered down in PVP. 99% of TR powers cannot dish out enough damage for TRs to rely on so they have to turn to shocking execution in order to kill efficiently. Many opponents a TR would struggle to make a dent in and often aren't able to kill at all without SE can be killed by their peers in other classes, often in only a few hits. GFs, HRs, GWFs, CWs, and SWs are all better damage dealers than TRs.
Courage breaker and shocking execution are the only two powers in the TR arsenal that are too strong in PVP. These two powers are problematic but they are also our life support right now. The TR class must be stabilized in the form of sufficient buffs/reworks to our other powers/feats before CB and SE can be nerfed.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Unfortunatly CB will probably need something more direct applied to it in pvp. The effects of CB are fine but the durration means you can keep it up against a single target 100% of the time if you build for cooldown reduction/AP gain. I am less sure of the exact fix CB should get but some decent proposals have been put fowards for it.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
If you are getting dominated by a cc setup tr then your team is not helping properly... or you like to stand in smoke.
Boost your deflection and no cc skill can hinder you
Boost hp and your hp gain from boons will make you damn near unkillable.
My last experiences with Df and Bosses in FBI and eSP, good (sure not excellent but still good) buff/debuff group with DoDc, AcDc, Gf, Trapper Hr and me as Tr....
Lets say it more nicely...it was tedious.
Hatti
6 Bleeding Stacks....8 Stacks...C'mon give me an 10 now...do it.... Hatti interrupts me or flies up to the sky..so again 2 stacks...6....Hatti is taking a break on his rock..next try 6 stacks...8stacks....10stacks "Hooray i can go all out"....Hattis is taking a break on the rock.... Me: This cannot be *smashin head against the desk constantly*
Trötel i mean Turtle
4stacks...6stacks...interrupt through slam...next try....4 stacks...8 stacks...10 stacks Hoora....wait Turtle is going to a swimbreak maybe springbreak next try 6 stacks...8 stacks aaaaand grandslam.....next try 8 stacks...yes yes omg i get an orgas... Turtle is going swimming maybe she is hungry and needs some fishes who knows...next try Turtle... comes up and died instantly maybe some of the fishes were not healthy for her. Me: *Smashes head again against the desk* Meanwhile i have a feeling of an nice headache..but i am fine.
Drufi
Long story short...constantly interrupted because of her "i smash everything away from me" "call of winter" attack "Cat at 4am mode".
My desk looks a little bit as if an lunatic Lumberjack had some sort of "adult time" with them...
eSP second Boss:
4 stacks..6 stacks...Me constantly pressing my mouse button..give me an 10 now god please... oh i am stoned (giggle) bc i was to aware to get an 10 (i know it sounds like an Gambler on an Table in Las Vegas) and overlooked the attack. So he throws me away an i was dead....
After the (dunno exactly) 10th or 12th try i left very frustrated (and my headache was as high as the Mount Everest) our party replacing me with an allie member so that my guildmates could finish the run..
So i made for me the decission that i am refuse to run eSP with my Tr as long as if i only have an "Hamster" Chance to build up Bleeding stacks...i am that kind of tired and frustrated about that!
Also i would not read or hear the uproar in the community if you the devs made the decission to give (some examples) other classes only a "chance" like chilling stacks for Cw, only a "chance" for debuff to Dc, a "chance" to IBS for Gwf, a "chance" to mark to Gf, a "chance" to curse to SW and so on...
Why..please tell me why..you gave us Tr for one of our main attacks some kind of an "chance"?
2. You make a good point. There are numerous directions they could take regarding this encounter. They could incorporate a debuff to it that lingers on enemies, they could also give it a bleed effect to act as another DoT. The simplest thing they could do at the very least is increase the base damage of the encounter and keep the cool down the same (I'd be fine with that.)
3. Good point. I have to agree.
4. Another good idea. Excited to see what the developers choose to do given the vast amount of feedback.
Very few of us have time or interest to read the entire bible.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
Simply game moves in one direction while TR moves in the opposite direction.
@trgluestickz I dont know about Stealth loss thing. It seems unfair for PvP since there are perma-Stealth builds. Opponents cant see you and if they cant get you out of Stealth even by damaging you its unbalanced mechanic. It totally makes sense if you take damage to lose Stealth. To make it more balanced it could be done in form of Tenacious Concealment. It would at least force us to use one Passive slot to gain that ability. Currently from what i saw TC doesnt prevent complete Stealth loss so it could be adjusted to do so.
@blur @trgluestickz
Make it so that "stealth loss" still happens when taking damage IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY IN STEALTH, even more so than it does now, because ticks of 100 damage or AoE damage barely does anything to unstealth rogues in PvP. But the stealth regeneration while you are OUT OF stealth should be at a regular pace despite taking damage. Say, how does it feel if taking damage drained your Determination / Divinity / Soul Sparks? Ask a TR, we know!
Feats and passives like TenCon could be made to increase the regeneration speed, but no more being unable to resteatlh during combat because you're constantly being bombarded.
Quick thought, pretty drafty, any thoughts?
> Back at this thread it seems!
>
> @blur @trgluestickz
>
> Make it so that "stealth loss" still happens when taking damage IF YOU ARE ACTUALLY IN STEALTH, even more so than it does now, because ticks of 100 damage or AoE damage barely does anything to unstealth rogues in PvP. But the stealth regeneration while you are OUT OF stealth should be at a regular pace despite taking damage. Say, how does it feel if taking damage drained your Determination / Divinity / Soul Sparks? Ask a TR, we know!
>
> Feats and passives like TenCon could be made to increase the regeneration speed, but no more being unable to resteatlh during combat because you're constantly being bombarded.
>
> Quick thought, pretty drafty, any thoughts?
This is why I chose sab path
Semantics aside, we can all agree that we need more tools to minimize/remove loss of stealth and stealth regen interuption from both incoming and outgoing damage.
Tenacious Concealment: "reduce stealth "loss" from incomming damage."
Shadow of Demise: "your stealth "regeneration" is no longer interrupted when taking damage"
As mentioned in previous posts, both of these do not do exactly what their tooltips say they are suposed to. If the actual mechanics of these 2 powers matched their tooltips exactly, then these 2 powers would differ from each other considerably.
@silktrocity 's suggestion is basically SOD's literal tooltip applied to all TR stealth instead of just executioner TR stealth.
After taking a closer look at his suggestion, I stand by what I said before, his suggestion will not be unfair in PVP. As explained above, it appears your suggestion matches what @silktrocity said all along and I agree with you. Making it so stealth regen is no longer interrupted when taking damage is an excellent idea as long as you do still lose stealth from taking damage while in stealth.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC
In a previous post, I said Shadow of Demise currently works the same way Tenacious Consealment does instead of Shadow of Demise doing what it's tooltip says it does. This turned out to be incorrect, I just tested the differences between Tenacious Consealment and Shadow of Demise on preview server. These were my findings:
Normally, when your stealth gage is recharging, and you take damage, two things happen to your stealth gage simultaneously:
#1 your stealth regeneration is interrupted (your stealth stops recharging for a few seconds)
#2 You lose a chunk of your stealth regeneration progress (your stealth recharge progress jumps down a little)
When I tested Shadow of Demise, #2 still occurs when you take damage but #1 does not. This means that SOD does in fact do exactly what the tooltip says it does, your stealth regeneration is no longer interrupted when taking damage. The reason SOD is underwhelming enough that we thought it didn't match the tooltip is because SOD doesn't stop your stealth recharge progress from being depleted by incomming damage.
Tenacious Concealment when I tested it, appears to not work at all. Even after a couple hours of testing, I could not tell the difference between slotting it and unslotting it. I will need to test it again later with some more precise stuff to be sure. Theoretically, when you take damage, #1 and #2 should still occur but #2's effects should be reduced. It should also reduce how much stealth you lose when you take damage while stealthed.
Now that the true cause of TC and SOD's lameness has been diagnosed, here is an update to @silktrocity 's idea:
Your stealth meter will take a little longer to recharge than it does currently.
Your stealth regeneration will no longer be interrupted when you take damage.
When your stealth bar is recharging, taking damage no will longer deplete your stealth regeneration progress.
Taking damage while stealthed will still deplete your stealth the way it does currently.
PVP Rogue,
--[----- "Your friendly neighborhood spawn of Satan." -----]--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Main Character: Hurricane Marigolds (Rogue WK & Assassin)
Ingame Handle: trgluestickz
Discord Name: Hurricane🌀Marigolds#2563
Guilds: She Looked LVL 18 & Essence of Aggression
Alliances: Imperium & Order of the Silent Shroud
Platform: PC