Personally I always check the group during this run, if the other two players are lvl70 then it becomes a race, if however there are lower lvl characters I take my time and let them get most of the kills and only stepping in when I think they need help. I guess it is down to the individual and their personality. Society is full of pariahs, being online is the best evidence for this. For the record I agree with the OP - be a decent human being, it is only an extra couple of minutes of your life and remember it is just a game.
Personally I always check the group during this run, if the other two players are lvl70 then it becomes a race, if however there are lower lvl characters I take my time and let them get most of the kills and only stepping in when I think they need help. I guess it is down to the individual and their personality. Society is full of pariahs, being online is the best evidence for this. For the record I agree with the OP - be a decent human being, it is only an extra couple of minutes of your life and remember it is just a game.
I think most of the salient points have been at least touched upon, just about everyone has a different play style, run these quests for different purposes, have different speeds inherent to their characters either by skill or buffs, but most importantly everyone starts off at the same point and no one can progress to the final conflict until all party members are together...
That being said those who prefer to try to run through the Cloak Tower to get to the boss gate as quickly as possible have little choice but to either abide at the final gate (do their nails or whatever) and await slower players or they can stay with the group and assist some of the slower less powerful players as everyone progress through the dungeon. If they have to wait at the boss gate and try to complain for having to do so, they only have themselves to blame. Perhaps if they would have not run so far ahead of the slower less capable players, they wouldn't have to wait so long and they'd have less to complain about.
Personally I try to take note of who the party leader is and attempt to match their style of progression when at all possible. Most of these areas are repeatable and anyone who felt they've had a less than satisfying run previously can always re-queue to run the dungeon at a later time or when at the end when other players are exiting, can always backtrack through the dungeon and explore at their leisure (hopefully without having to fight all the way to the front door).
just my two cents
Again, there is no excuse for not making it to the end in a timely manner. I'm not saying that new players are going to be running right next to a player with gear but they shouldn't be too far behind. My 5 characters mentioned above had no issue with this at all.
Congratulations on your 5 characters having no issue with this, but no one player's experience translates universally for every other player in the game. Just because your characters have "no issue" doesn't mean no one else's characters wouldn't.
Actually there is an excuse, if higher level players run through the dungeon they don't always kill the bad guys along the way and the lower level player has to fight their way to the end instead of just running by the bad guys...
It takes even longer if the lower level players are killed and have to resurrect at the campfire and start over again.
Your connection issues aren't considered "normal player activity". If your connection is so bad that a small amount of bytes per second or KB/s are causing lag you should fix that issue because it really is your own problem, not the problem of other players. Barely any throughput is required when loading into a map.
In the end, we don't need any players inventing what they believe is etiquette for a dungeon. That's how we got in the mess we're in with the whole "gg" thing in PvP. It's unnecessary and pointless.
My connection issues begin and end where the cable demarcation is. Outside of the house my connection issues are at the mercy of Comcast, Cogent, etc.
You are close enough to being accurate that I understand what you're trying to say. However, it doesn't make it not your connection issue. I didn't say "it's your fault/your modem's fault/exclusively your ISP's fault". I said it's your connection issue, and that's what it is. If you have an issue with your connection to the server, no matter who's fault it is, it's still an issue that you're experiencing. Hopefully a picture isn't necessary now.
Personally I always check the group during this run, if the other two players are lvl70 then it becomes a race, if however there are lower lvl characters I take my time and let them get most of the kills and only stepping in when I think they need help. I guess it is down to the individual and their personality. Society is full of pariahs, being online is the best evidence for this. For the record I agree with the OP - be a decent human being, it is only an extra couple of minutes of your life and remember it is just a game.
Why it it all about that player who "can't keep up"? What about the lives and time of the people who run this dungeon very frequently so they can make a decent amount of AD? Maybe the "decent human being" is the low level who doesn't make whining threads for minute things that aren't real issues. Maybe the people who are running it through fast should be mad at the other people for not keeping up. Who are you to decide what is considered "decent" when you aren't paying anyone else's bills? If people don't like it they shouldn't queue or learn to keep up instead of mess around and not pull their weight.
Congratulations on your 5 characters having no issue with this, but no one player's experience translates universally for every other player in the game. Just because your characters have "no issue" doesn't mean no one else's characters wouldn't.
Actually there is an excuse, if higher level players run through the dungeon they don't always kill the bad guys along the way and the lower level player has to fight their way to the end instead of just running by the bad guys...
It takes even longer if the lower level players are killed and have to resurrect at the campfire and start over again.
Way to take things out of context. I guess you conveniently overlooked this part?
"I wouldn't call that fortunate, considering I leveled 5 characters from 12 to 70 in cloak tower with gear from the tutorial island. You talking hypothetical isn't really helping at this point."
And yeah, everyone in the game plays the same characters so it actually does universally translate. The game is the game, for every player. If a player has the inability to achieve the basic task of following a line on the ground with the rest of the group that's their own problem.
Lower level players choose to sit there in the back and fight mobs for hours instead of stay with the group. Nobody is forcing them to do this so they don't "have to" as you claim. In-fact, the game actually tells you to run via the line on the ground and tells you on the side of the screen what your objective is which is to defeat a boss. If anything (according to the game), the people who are dragging behind spending forever fighting 2 monsters are the ones doing it wrong.
Congratulations on your 5 characters having no issue with this, but no one player's experience translates universally for every other player in the game. Just because your characters have "no issue" doesn't mean no one else's characters wouldn't.
Actually there is an excuse, if higher level players run through the dungeon they don't always kill the bad guys along the way and the lower level player has to fight their way to the end instead of just running by the bad guys...
It takes even longer if the lower level players are killed and have to resurrect at the campfire and start over again.
Way to take things out of context. I guess you conveniently overlooked this part?
"I wouldn't call that fortunate, considering I leveled 5 characters from 12 to 70 in cloak tower with gear from the tutorial island. You talking hypothetical isn't really helping at this point."
And yeah, everyone in the game plays the same characters so it actually does universally translate. The game is the game, for every player. If a player has the inability to achieve the basic task of following a line on the ground with the rest of the group that's their own problem.
Lower level players choose to sit there in the back and fight mobs for hours instead of stay with the group. Nobody is forcing them to do this so they don't "have to" as you claim. In-fact, the game actually tells you to run via the line on the ground and tells you on the side of the screen what your objective is which is to defeat a boss. If anything (according to the game), the people who are dragging behind spending forever fighting 2 monsters are the ones doing it wrong.
First of all every player in the game plays the "same characters", that doesn't mean every player is going to have the same "experience", which is what I specifically said and the origional topic was about people running through the CT just to get to the end and often leaving opponents behind that less experienced or slower players to have to fight through (it's not always a matter of "choice") - or maybe those players who haven't run through the CT a dozen or more times just to farm the boss and want to actually look around at all the hard work someone did to design the graphics for the tower.
But I think I see the disparity here, you are speaking about people just grinding away in the CT to get to the end and I'm saying not everyone in the CT is there to simply farm the Tower, some people are there as part of their ongoing quest line, so a person's experience is often dictated by why they are in the tower to begin with.
So I don't see how anyone who takes their time because they lack experience or goes through the Cloak Tower like they are supposed to (explore, fight the bad guys, and loot if you need to) is "doing it wrong"... IMO those people who are at a higher level and have greater experience who are just there to farm a level 12 dungeon and run away from their party or even a single less experienced player just to get to the end are the ones "doing it wrong".
Congratulations on your 5 characters having no issue with this, but no one player's experience translates universally for every other player in the game. Just because your characters have "no issue" doesn't mean no one else's characters wouldn't.
Actually there is an excuse, if higher level players run through the dungeon they don't always kill the bad guys along the way and the lower level player has to fight their way to the end instead of just running by the bad guys...
It takes even longer if the lower level players are killed and have to resurrect at the campfire and start over again.
Way to take things out of context. I guess you conveniently overlooked this part?
"I wouldn't call that fortunate, considering I leveled 5 characters from 12 to 70 in cloak tower with gear from the tutorial island. You talking hypothetical isn't really helping at this point."
And yeah, everyone in the game plays the same characters so it actually does universally translate. The game is the game, for every player. If a player has the inability to achieve the basic task of following a line on the ground with the rest of the group that's their own problem.
Lower level players choose to sit there in the back and fight mobs for hours instead of stay with the group. Nobody is forcing them to do this so they don't "have to" as you claim. In-fact, the game actually tells you to run via the line on the ground and tells you on the side of the screen what your objective is which is to defeat a boss. If anything (according to the game), the people who are dragging behind spending forever fighting 2 monsters are the ones doing it wrong.
First of all every player in the game plays the "same characters", that doesn't mean every player is going to have the same "experience", which is what I specifically said and the origional topic was about people running through the CT just to get to the end and often leaving opponents behind that less experienced or slower players to have to fight through (it's not always a matter of "choice") - or maybe those players who haven't run through the CT a dozen or more times just to farm the boss and want to actually look around at all the hard work someone did to design the graphics for the tower.
But I think I see the disparity here, you are speaking about people just grinding away in the CT to get to the end and I'm saying not everyone in the CT is there to simply farm the Tower, some people are there as part of their ongoing quest line, so a person's experience is often dictated by why they are in the tower to begin with.
So I don't see how anyone who takes their time because they lack experience or goes through the Cloak Tower like they are supposed to (explore, fight the bad guys, and loot if you need to) is "doing it wrong"... IMO those people who are at a higher level and have greater experience who are just there to farm a level 12 dungeon and run away from their party or even a single less experienced player just to get to the end are the ones "doing it wrong".
But that's just my opinion.
If everyone has the same opportunities beause the characters are exactly the same they have the same experience. Anything beyond this in which they lack something in the experience can only be blamed on them. For example, if I can create a character and do cloak tower while keeping up enough to not die with only gear from the tutorial then other players can do it as well. If they are unable to do this they have serious skill deficiency or are not putting in effort, in which case they don't really deserve to not die. Players should give effort if they expect positive results.
Regarding players wanting to look I again bring up the issue that players are basically forced to find alternative AD farming techniques such as cloak tower due to the silly restriction of 36k AD per day per character and AD being so harshly limited on dungeons and skirmishes.
You again seem to be cherry-picking the conversation for your favor. You completely ignored the fact that the people following the line and killing the boss are playing the game the way it's meant to be played. Again, why are you claiming that level 70 players are "running away from their party" instead of saying the lower/newer players "aren't keeping up with their party"?
So, stupid newbie question here - I've run through this dungeon on several low alts in the natural progression of the solo questline for this zone.
Is there any other way to get a chest at the end for a low level if you aren't high enough level to get the daily dungeon chest key? It's beyond annoying to do the zone at 16, chase after someone sprinting through, just to get to the end and not get any kind of reward. As a work around my husband and I have started waiting to do CT for the first time until we are 19 so we can at least get some blue gear and some seals (we are altaholics). Just wondering if there's anything else we can do. At 16 we don't have 4k AD to buy a key off the Wondrous Bazaar.
So, stupid newbie question here - I've run through this dungeon on several low alts in the natural progression of the solo questline for this zone.
Is there any other way to get a chest at the end for a low level if you aren't high enough level to get the daily dungeon chest key? It's beyond annoying to do the zone at 16, chase after someone sprinting through, just to get to the end and not get any kind of reward. As a work around my husband and I have started waiting to do CT for the first time until we are 19 so we can at least get some blue gear and some seals (we are altaholics). Just wondering if there's anything else we can do. At 16 we don't have 4k AD to buy a key off the Wondrous Bazaar.
You get a reward for completion called Astral Diamonds. It's the main reason people do the dungeon; not the chest. Originally I had a sentence here explaining the Wonderous Bazaar is a way to get a key but it's a waste of money. By the time I got to the end of your reply you ended up making it clear you aren't completely new.
If you want seals simply keep up with your group members. It's pretty easy to do and will guarantee that you get seals. The gear drops you will receive regardless of someone being ahead of you beause when they pick it up it will ask the group to roll on the items. If they don't pick it up you can pick it up and the same will happen.
Atodaso@sneak#6191 Tornado Of Souls
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
Not always. There is some gear that drops specifically for one individual and if they aren't there for the fight, there is no drop for them.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
If everyone has the same opportunities beause the characters are exactly the same they have the same experience. Anything beyond this in which they lack something in the experience can only be blamed on them. For example, if I can create a character and do cloak tower while keeping up enough to not die with only gear from the tutorial then other players can do it as well. If they are unable to do this they have serious skill deficiency or are not putting in effort, in which case they don't really deserve to not die. Players should give effort if they expect positive results.
Regarding players wanting to look I again bring up the issue that players are basically forced to find alternative AD farming techniques such as cloak tower due to the silly restriction of 36k AD per day per character and AD being so harshly limited on dungeons and skirmishes.
You again seem to be cherry-picking the conversation for your favor. You completely ignored the fact that the people following the line and killing the boss are playing the game the way it's meant to be played. Again, why are you claiming that level 70 players are "running away from their party" instead of saying the lower/newer players "aren't keeping up with their party"?
Clearly we will have to agree to disagree.
It's true that everyone will have the same opportunities, but clearly not every player has had the same opportunities as every other player.
For instance not every player will have had the experience (there's that word again) of running through the Cloak Tower on numerous prior occasions and by the very nature of leveling up even minus the higher level gear, the survivability and ability to kill opponents is better for higher level characters than it is for lower level characters.
I'm saying higher level players are running away from their party instead of lower level characters fail to keep up for one simple reason, that's exactly what happens in many ocassions. Higher level players with their greater experience and in most cases better gear have the ability to run the dungeon more easily and not every other player, particularly those players with less experience or less effective gear can keep up with the higher level players - even if they want to.
And again I'm speaking generically about he origional thread topic, players running away from other party members in the CT leaving behind opponents for the slower and less experienced players to have to wade through.
You might consider that "cherry picking" but I consider it trying to keep with the topic.
Players are forced to find alternative methods for obtaining AD's because of recent changes, but I still consider it a matter of common courtesy perhaps fom my previous real life experiences, that no member of the party should be left behind and personally I can't justify runing through the bad guys, just because I can, leaving people benind who don't or can't keep up simply because I want to improve my bank account...
1. Everyone has the same opportunities 2. Not every player has had the same opportunities.
These are literally direct contradictions to each-other.
Yes, it's easier to play low level dungeons with highly-geared characters. This doesn't change the ability to run through while your group destroys things. If anything a player is better off with a highly-geared player in their group since they have the ability to survive and kill things easily, leaving the low-geared player with no issues.
You saying that higher level players are running away from the party can once again be contrasted with the statement that low players are not keeping up with higher players. This again falls back to the point that I have been doing cloak tower on my alts since level 12 with the basic gear you get at the island (because I was power-leveled to 12 in SH) without issue. This means the average player experience provides them with even better items than I had so they should have an easier time than I did surviving.
Many people (including myself) were running CT before the invoke changes which I happen to agree with. I don't think people should be able to run bots to get free AD while I work hard running dungeons. Maybe I consider it common courtesy for players to not make me wait at the end of the dungeon because they choose not to keep up? Again why is it all about the new players? I'm playing the game the way it allows me to play it and the way it tells me to but it's somehow on me that random players choose not to keep up? Nah..
You guys keep talking about running past the mobs and leaving them for the low levels.. but the reality is this:
1. We kill the mobs when we get to a choke point or the furthest possible place you can access while in combat. 2. Even if it were true that mobs are losing aggro, there wouldn't be many and the player can just run past those. If they're unable to do anything about 1 or 2 monsters they are doing something seriously wrong considering they are 12+. Players should be capable of handling a couple monsters. It's not as if we are running to the end and the mobs just stand there in a group of 20 and all attack the new guy. It simply doesn't work this way...
Sorry so much of the inane back and forth seems to have put a few of my brain cells to sleep...
My confusing reference to opportunity would probably be better explained that while everyone has the same opportunity for something to happen - that opportunity, the set of circumstances that affords that opportunity may present itself for some players and it may not occur for other players.
For instance one player may run through an area and have the ability to outrun their opponents and quickly pass through areas so they do so - while another player may not have the ability or desire to run through the area... The opportunity is the same for both players but the circumstances that trigger that opportunity is not always the same for every player.
There is an advantage to having a higher level player in the party, SO LONG AS THAT HIGHER LEVEL PLAYER DOES NOT RUN AWAY FROM OTHER PEOPLE IN THE GROUP WHICH IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT and what I have been repeatedly referencing while you have been all over the map.
But the entire matter is moot IMO, no one can enter the last area till all party members are together.
If someone wants to run through a dungeon and cool their heels for a slower player to get there so be it...
But to complain that you have to wait on them when you could avoid that wait by sticking with the group, helping out less experienced or lower level players navigate the dungeon so that everyone can arrive at the gate at the same time - just seems silly and totally self serving to me.
This conversation reminds me of a story;
Two men are walking through the woods and one asks the other: "What if we see a bear?"
The second man replies "Simple, we run."
The first man thinks about it for a bit and asks: "Can we outrun a bear?"
And the second man says: "All I have to do is outrun you."
If everyone runs along, the run takes 5-7 minutes. With bonus AD a run generates 8k RAD. That is up to 96k RAD/ hour, if you switch chars after 2 runs. With 10 chars you can generate 160k AD/day. Thats more than 1kk AD/week. Now you know, why ppl run CT or TOS with miserable geared alts and complain, when the other players dont carry them, claiming, that new players get griefed by those other player running CT for AD (as they do, too).
Whats the idea of doing low lvl dungeons at 70? Do they count toward daily ad reward? Do they drop something that can be turned into AD?
There used to be a limit restriction where players over a certain level were not allowed to run low level dungeons, with one of the recent updates there is now a campaign tree that lists some of the quests a player must complete to conclude that level, including for some higher level players low level dungeons that were for a time unavailable to anyone...
After I time I do hope they reintroduce the level restrictions where higher level players (level 70) are not allowed to run lower level dungeons (level 12) - at least unless that higher level player is in a party with a low level player that actually qualifies for that level dungeon. {Yeah I know that's probably going to tick a bunch of high level - low dungeon grinders off} but with the game so deleteriously reducing the opportunities for players to earn AD's, even I can see the logic and sensibility of farming for AD's in the quickest and easiest manner available.
IMO that would keep higher level players from farming lower level dungeons, then complaining that people don't keep up.
End game players could always run low level dungeons by going to the door. The change was only that the level limit was removed from the queue. Well, also now you can't enter a dungeon solo by going to the door (which was an silly thing to remove in my opinion).
1. Everyone has the same opportunities 2. Not every player has had the same opportunities.
These are literally direct contradictions to each-other.
Yes, it's easier to play low level dungeons with highly-geared characters. This doesn't change the ability to run through while your group destroys things. If anything a player is better off with a highly-geared player in their group since they have the ability to survive and kill things easily, leaving the low-geared player with no issues.
You saying that higher level players are running away from the party can once again be contrasted with the statement that low players are not keeping up with higher players. This again falls back to the point that I have been doing cloak tower on my alts since level 12 with the basic gear you get at the island (because I was power-leveled to 12 in SH) without issue. This means the average player experience provides them with even better items than I had so they should have an easier time than I did surviving.
Many people (including myself) were running CT before the invoke changes which I happen to agree with. I don't think people should be able to run bots to get free AD while I work hard running dungeons. Maybe I consider it common courtesy for players to not make me wait at the end of the dungeon because they choose not to keep up? Again why is it all about the new players? I'm playing the game the way it allows me to play it and the way it tells me to but it's somehow on me that random players choose not to keep up? Nah..
You guys keep talking about running past the mobs and leaving them for the low levels.. but the reality is this:
1. We kill the mobs when we get to a choke point or the furthest possible place you can access while in combat. 2. Even if it were true that mobs are losing aggro, there wouldn't be many and the player can just run past those. If they're unable to do anything about 1 or 2 monsters they are doing something seriously wrong considering they are 12+. Players should be capable of handling a couple monsters. It's not as if we are running to the end and the mobs just stand there in a group of 20 and all attack the new guy. It simply doesn't work this way...
Sorry so much of the inane back and forth seems to have put a few of my brain cells to sleep...
My confusing reference to opportunity would probably be better explained that while everyone has the same opportunity for something to happen - that opportunity, the set of circumstances that affords that opportunity may present itself for some players and it may not occur for other players.
For instance one player may run through an area and have the ability to outrun their opponents and quickly pass through areas so they do so - while another player may not have the ability or desire to run through the area... The opportunity is the same for both players but the circumstances that trigger that opportunity is not always the same for every player.
There is an advantage to having a higher level player in the party, SO LONG AS THAT HIGHER LEVEL PLAYER DOES NOT RUN AWAY FROM OTHER PEOPLE IN THE GROUP WHICH IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT and what I have been repeatedly referencing while you have been all over the map.
But the entire matter is moot IMO, no one can enter the last area till all party members are together.
If someone wants to run through a dungeon and cool their heels for a slower player to get there so be it...
But to complain that you have to wait on them when you could avoid that wait by sticking with the group, helping out less experienced or lower level players navigate the dungeon so that everyone can arrive at the gate at the same time - just seems silly and totally self serving to me.
This conversation reminds me of a story;
Two men are walking through the woods and one asks the other: "What if we see a bear?"
The second man replies "Simple, we run."
The first man thinks about it for a bit and asks: "Can we outrun a bear?"
And the second man says: "All I have to do is outrun you."
In this hypothetical reality where "some bad things may happen to certain people but not to others" there's a saying for this.. it's called "HAMSTER happens". It doesn't really make sense to urge players to go out of their way to change the normal expected play behavior instilled by the game just because of the tiny possibility something may go wrong for a few people now and then.
Why would one player not be able to outrun the mobs quickly? And if they don't have the desire to contribute to the dungeon they don't deserve the rewards of the dungeon which I've already covered.
Once again (and for the final time in this thread) the higher level players are doing the dungeon and the lower players are refusing to stick with their group members. Stop trying to turn this around on the people who are playing to the objective the way it's intended.
The "complaint that I have to wait on slow players" was a hypothetical advocacy complaint in opposition to the complaint that players are running through the dungeon to actually complete it. I'm basically turning the tables, where a bunch of people are blaming others who successfully run the dungeon for being "HAMSTER" just because some players refuse to keep up. If anything, this complaint is more legitimate than the former for reasons already mentioned several times.
The "story" analogy is a poor one considering the bulk of the mobs (in the worst-case scenario that not every single monster is killed) are what could potentially kill a player and these mobs are already gone by the time the player reaches the areas they spawned at originally. It's not as if 0 monsters are being killed and they are all just piling up and standing there waiting for the low level guy to come along so they can all jump him. You guys are painting the picture this way but this isn't reality at all.
Whats the idea of doing low lvl dungeons at 70? Do they count toward daily ad reward? Do they drop something that can be turned into AD?
There used to be a limit restriction where players over a certain level were not allowed to run low level dungeons, with one of the recent updates there is now a campaign tree that lists some of the quests a player must complete to conclude that level, including for some higher level players low level dungeons that were for a time unavailable to anyone...
After I time I do hope they reintroduce the level restrictions where higher level players (level 70) are not allowed to run lower level dungeons (level 12) - at least unless that higher level player is in a party with a low level player that actually qualifies for that level dungeon. {Yeah I know that's probably going to tick a bunch of high level - low dungeon grinders off} but with the game so deleteriously reducing the opportunities for players to earn AD's, even I can see the logic and sensibility of farming for AD's in the quickest and easiest manner available.
IMO that would keep higher level players from farming lower level dungeons, then complaining that people don't keep up.
Once again, the thread is people complaining that higher level players exist, basically.. considering the complaint is illegitimate from the start because they way they are claiming things go down in CT are not in-fact the way they go down.
I challenge you to roll a new toon (use a new account if you don't have open slots), level it normally and run CT at a level around 15 +/- 3, which is the level intended or CT. Use only standard gear normally available to it at that level for a new player (meaning no higher end mounts, insignias, enchants, gear) and just TRY to keep up with me if I don't kill everything along the way for you.
We'll make a video of it and post it on this thread. Should only take you a couple hours max to level up to 12. Let me know when you have a toon ready, and we'll see if your position still holds.
I challenge you to roll a new toon (use a new account if you don't have open slots), level it normally and run CT at a level around 15 +/- 3, which is the level intended or CT. Use only standard gear normally available to it at that level for a new player (meaning no higher end mounts, insignias, enchants, gear) and just TRY to keep up with me if I don't kill everything along the way for you.
We'll make a video of it and post it on this thread. Should only take you a couple hours max to level up to 12. Let me know when you have a toon ready, and we'll see if your position still holds.
I've actually been thinking about making a new character and levelling it manually (through missions instead of powerlevelling to 12) then running CT and having it all on video (or at least show the items and do the ct). I was going to find someone from the CT channel to go with and do it.
I have a lot of work to do, I do a lot of things every day to make money so things like this are really at the bottom of my list.
The complaints seem to be that the low player dies as a result of not being able to keep up rather than simply not being able to keep up.
Also the 5 alts I have all did cloak tower without special insignias or anything like that.
I run CT with the lvl 15ish alt of a friend and he never had problems surviving it. I pull and kill most of the mobs and clear the mobs at the door. He catches up, while I do the trash clearing.
I use gladiators guile on my chars and 2k movement mount bonus. He uses nothing like that. It works.
So, stupid newbie question here - I've run through this dungeon on several low alts in the natural progression of the solo questline for this zone.
Is there any other way to get a chest at the end for a low level if you aren't high enough level to get the daily dungeon chest key? It's beyond annoying to do the zone at 16, chase after someone sprinting through, just to get to the end and not get any kind of reward. As a work around my husband and I have started waiting to do CT for the first time until we are 19 so we can at least get some blue gear and some seals (we are altaholics). Just wondering if there's anything else we can do. At 16 we don't have 4k AD to buy a key off the Wondrous Bazaar.
You can actually get two bonus chests if you get the extra items to place at them. The first is located in one of the first areas where you can go left but the shiny line on the ground says to go right. Also almost every run I have been in no one even bothers to go into that room. If I remember correctly the next two are at the boss on tables to either side and the rest are on the floors of various rooms as you go along.
Before the rework some of them dropped from the bonus boss that has been removed and other bosses along the way. Now they are just scattered on the floor. If someone picks up an item and does not place it on chest before leaving you are screwed. If you get a max level speed run to chest and leave AD farming me me me type you are screwed.
About the only way to get the two bonus chests are if you manage to pick up all the items yourself and place them on the two bonus chests at the end of the run.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,154Arc User
And those chests, from what I have seen, gives items for the expected level. Not for the level of the character as the actual end chest will.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
The mushroom still drops from the big Ogre boss (Mog the Mashable? Stinky the Clown? Whatever is name is), but that boss is along the way now rather than a tucked away secret-ish/optional boss. The other 5 items you need to open the chests are in the same places as they always were.
Wait, what?!? There is etiquette involved while doing dungeons? From most of the posts I gather that most groups want to zip through dungeons as quickly as possible and each player has a role (tank, DPS, healing, etc..) according to what class they are playing. I am as green as one can be in MMORPG's. I played Guild Wars 2 for a couple months before coming to Neverwinter. Obviously I have very little experience. I thought games like this are meant to be explored with different story lines to follow to gain rewards. I like to take my time and discover NPC's looking for help, deep unexplored lizard man lairs and cults of savage cannibals. It looks like the best way to accomplish these things is with friends and guild mates.
Wait, what?!? There is etiquette involved while doing dungeons? From most of the posts I gather that most groups want to zip through dungeons as quickly as possible and each player has a role (tank, DPS, healing, etc..) according to what class they are playing. I am as green as one can be in MMORPG's. I played Guild Wars 2 for a couple months before coming to Neverwinter. Obviously I have very little experience. I thought games like this are meant to be explored with different story lines to follow to gain rewards. I like to take my time and discover NPC's looking for help, deep unexplored lizard man lairs and cults of savage cannibals. It looks like the best way to accomplish these things is with friends and guild mates.
What in the nine hells is this? Adventurer's with friends & guild mates? Why I have a companion and a stable of mounts, this Great Weapon Fighter grabs his sword with both hands and charges solo into battle..........if only this dungeon door would open and let me in..........
I'm lvl 70 but still not geared fully to run some reg dungeons and epic dungeons without needing a hand in some encounters. I played VT the other night and 3 out of the 5 ran ahead each time to the next camp with their super speed and left me and another less experienced player in the dust. Then they had the gall to complain in chat cause me and other guy were "taking too long". Now because I'm still fairly new to lvl 70, one of them bone heads thought I was an idiot and told me he couldn't come back to help, the game doesn't let ya. Yeah...ok.
In this hypothetical reality where "some bad things may happen to certain people but not to others" there's a saying for this.. it's called "HAMSTER happens". It doesn't really make sense to urge players to go out of their way to change the normal expected play behavior instilled by the game just because of the tiny possibility something may go wrong for a few people now and then.
Why would one player not be able to outrun the mobs quickly? And if they don't have the desire to contribute to the dungeon they don't deserve the rewards of the dungeon which I've already covered.
Once again (and for the final time in this thread) the higher level players are doing the dungeon and the lower players are refusing to stick with their group members. Stop trying to turn this around on the people who are playing to the objective the way it's intended.
The "complaint that I have to wait on slow players" was a hypothetical advocacy complaint in opposition to the complaint that players are running through the dungeon to actually complete it. I'm basically turning the tables, where a bunch of people are blaming others who successfully run the dungeon for being "HAMSTER" just because some players refuse to keep up. If anything, this complaint is more legitimate than the former for reasons already mentioned several times.
The "story" analogy is a poor one considering the bulk of the mobs (in the worst-case scenario that not every single monster is killed) are what could potentially kill a player and these mobs are already gone by the time the player reaches the areas they spawned at originally. It's not as if 0 monsters are being killed and they are all just piling up and standing there waiting for the low level guy to come along so they can all jump him. You guys are painting the picture this way but this isn't reality at all.
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Once again, the thread is people complaining that higher level players exist, basically.. considering the complaint is illegitimate from the start because they way they are claiming things go down in CT are not in-fact the way they go down.
Actually if you go back to the very first post in this thread, the intent and purpose of this discussion seems to me to be about "why do some people run ahead of other players and not kill the opponents as they are doing so" and I think the reference there was that the author of the thread considered those who ran ahead and didn't kill the opponents along the way are being, less than "polite".
Just Because you jumped in and try to change the subject of the thread to "why don't people keep up", or erroneously attempt to claim; "this thread is people complaining that higher level players exist" doesn't change actual and intended purpose of this thread as far as I'm concerned.
There seems to be a purpose for the game requiring a number of players before anyone can run a dungeon, it's called "forming a party", and the purpose of a party is to quest together to give support to other players when and where necessary or just arrive at the end at the same time NOT for one or two players to run off to do their own thing and leave other members of the party to catch up. I agree with the origional posted that those who run off from the rest of the party and particularly those who do so and do not kill the opponents along the way are impolite and inconsiderate to say the very least.
And again you attempt to put the onus of not keeping the party together on the slower player who may not have the ability or experience to do so just tends to show quite a bit of ignorance, arrogance or possibly both on your part as does your suggestion that any low level player should be able to handle mobs of remaining opponents (remember the origional premise was that the run away character did not kill the opponents as they ran through) or even a few remaining opponents as far as I'm concerned.
The next time you're in the game press your "C" button and look at your character attributes, particularly your "run speed" - "defense" - "deflection" - "power" - CRIT and AP...
Now if you have more than one character open up the character attributes of a couple more characters, or better yet make a new character and run it up to around level 15 - the appropriate level for questing in the Cloak Tower - and compare that player's stats with the first higher level player you created.
Are the stats identical?
Probably not - THAT's why some players do not have the "ability to outrun mobs quickly", it has sometimes (often times IMO, as I think few people want to lag behind in a dungeon with opponents in their path) nothing to do with "desire" or "choice", even though you might have the ability, again its not always a matter of "choice" or "desire" despite your attempting to repeatedly claim it is.
And it is not a complaint that you have to wait for slower players... it's been pointed out that it is the "polite" and considerate thing to do, but that you don't and don't think you should have to, again speaks to your character IMO...
And still the fact remains that regardless of whether or not you want to wait at the final gate for the entire party to arrive, you have to wait for the slower or less experienced, or "just wanted to look around" player to arrive - you have to wait for that player to arrive before you can so through that last gate...
And if I happen to be the slow member in the party who can't - or as you say "won't" keep up - I just might take a little longer than I normally would have to, just to return the consideration, or more accurately the lack of consideration that I've been shown. I hope to see you in a CT quest party real soon...
DD~
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myles08807Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 409Arc User
I started this thread, and I'm glad to have done so. There are a few IDs among the replies for which I'll be looking in the future in any dungeon or skirmish PUG, and leaving if I see them. I'll continue to kill everything along the way with my alts fast and slow, and I will not listen to the complainers.
I usually do the fast run. Sometime i group everything up and kill them all at certain point. As for low level player, i leave them to themselves not because i didnt want to help but because there are many type of people playing this game. Some player just wants to kill stuff to enjoy the game. Some wants other player to help. Some are curious and wants to explore. Some are really lost. Some are smart and they tag along. So i dont bother them much and willing to wait till they do what they wants to do. If i see them died back there, only will i go back and look for them to lead the path. Else, i just leave them be. The last time i help them, they quit the dungeon saying i spoiled their fun.
But i really hate some bad manners people with elitist attitude that trying to dictate how others play this game. I once got told by the other lvl70 player, not to do fast run and telling me i m making it difficult for the other low lvl. While he, himself is standing next to me right before the final boss instead of fighting beside the low lvl guy. I mean if he feel the low level guy needed the help he could turn back to help him instead of waiting with me at the campfire and complaining? I will only turn back if the low level died or something convince me he is really having difficulty. Else i wont judge or intrude his fun for exploring or killing mob. So guys, before u judge or dictating how others play the game, please be respectful of other player that play the game. Its ok to create awareness but please do not dictate others how to play the game. Its just rude.
Lastly, i felt abit pity for cloak tower that level 70 are able do it with lvl14 difficulty. Its a well design dungeon that got turn into AD grinding zone. I still remember how fun it is back in mod3 when i m doing it for the 1st time at lvl18 with other similar level player. Now its all about lvl70 one shotting everything.
Comments
This is how I play as well.
Actually there is an excuse, if higher level players run through the dungeon they don't always kill the bad guys along the way and the lower level player has to fight their way to the end instead of just running by the bad guys...
It takes even longer if the lower level players are killed and have to resurrect at the campfire and start over again.
Why it it all about that player who "can't keep up"? What about the lives and time of the people who run this dungeon very frequently so they can make a decent amount of AD? Maybe the "decent human being" is the low level who doesn't make whining threads for minute things that aren't real issues. Maybe the people who are running it through fast should be mad at the other people for not keeping up. Who are you to decide what is considered "decent" when you aren't paying anyone else's bills? If people don't like it they shouldn't queue or learn to keep up instead of mess around and not pull their weight. Way to take things out of context. I guess you conveniently overlooked this part?
"I wouldn't call that fortunate, considering I leveled 5 characters from 12 to 70 in cloak tower with gear from the tutorial island. You talking hypothetical isn't really helping at this point."
And yeah, everyone in the game plays the same characters so it actually does universally translate. The game is the game, for every player. If a player has the inability to achieve the basic task of following a line on the ground with the rest of the group that's their own problem.
Lower level players choose to sit there in the back and fight mobs for hours instead of stay with the group. Nobody is forcing them to do this so they don't "have to" as you claim. In-fact, the game actually tells you to run via the line on the ground and tells you on the side of the screen what your objective is which is to defeat a boss. If anything (according to the game), the people who are dragging behind spending forever fighting 2 monsters are the ones doing it wrong.
Tornado Of Souls
But I think I see the disparity here, you are speaking about people just grinding away in the CT to get to the end and I'm saying not everyone in the CT is there to simply farm the Tower, some people are there as part of their ongoing quest line, so a person's experience is often dictated by why they are in the tower to begin with.
So I don't see how anyone who takes their time because they lack experience or goes through the Cloak Tower like they are supposed to (explore, fight the bad guys, and loot if you need to) is "doing it wrong"... IMO those people who are at a higher level and have greater experience who are just there to farm a level 12 dungeon and run away from their party or even a single less experienced player just to get to the end are the ones "doing it wrong".
But that's just my opinion.
Regarding players wanting to look I again bring up the issue that players are basically forced to find alternative AD farming techniques such as cloak tower due to the silly restriction of 36k AD per day per character and AD being so harshly limited on dungeons and skirmishes.
You again seem to be cherry-picking the conversation for your favor. You completely ignored the fact that the people following the line and killing the boss are playing the game the way it's meant to be played. Again, why are you claiming that level 70 players are "running away from their party" instead of saying the lower/newer players "aren't keeping up with their party"?
Tornado Of Souls
Is there any other way to get a chest at the end for a low level if you aren't high enough level to get the daily dungeon chest key? It's beyond annoying to do the zone at 16, chase after someone sprinting through, just to get to the end and not get any kind of reward. As a work around my husband and I have started waiting to do CT for the first time until we are 19 so we can at least get some blue gear and some seals (we are altaholics). Just wondering if there's anything else we can do.
If you want seals simply keep up with your group members. It's pretty easy to do and will guarantee that you get seals. The gear drops you will receive regardless of someone being ahead of you beause when they pick it up it will ask the group to roll on the items. If they don't pick it up you can pick it up and the same will happen.
Tornado Of Souls
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
It's true that everyone will have the same opportunities, but clearly not every player has had the same opportunities as every other player.
For instance not every player will have had the experience (there's that word again) of running through the Cloak Tower on numerous prior occasions and by the very nature of leveling up even minus the higher level gear, the survivability and ability to kill opponents is better for higher level characters than it is for lower level characters.
I'm saying higher level players are running away from their party instead of lower level characters fail to keep up for one simple reason, that's exactly what happens in many ocassions. Higher level players with their greater experience and in most cases better gear have the ability to run the dungeon more easily and not every other player, particularly those players with less experience or less effective gear can keep up with the higher level players - even if they want to.
And again I'm speaking generically about he origional thread topic, players running away from other party members in the CT leaving behind opponents for the slower and less experienced players to have to wade through.
You might consider that "cherry picking" but I consider it trying to keep with the topic.
Players are forced to find alternative methods for obtaining AD's because of recent changes, but I still consider it a matter of common courtesy perhaps fom my previous real life experiences, that no member of the party should be left behind and personally I can't justify runing through the bad guys, just because I can, leaving people benind who don't or can't keep up simply because I want to improve my bank account...
But maybe that's just me.
My confusing reference to opportunity would probably be better explained that while everyone has the same opportunity for something to happen - that opportunity, the set of circumstances that affords that opportunity may present itself for some players and it may not occur for other players.
For instance one player may run through an area and have the ability to outrun their opponents and quickly pass through areas so they do so - while another player may not have the ability or desire to run through the area... The opportunity is the same for both players but the circumstances that trigger that opportunity is not always the same for every player.
There is an advantage to having a higher level player in the party, SO LONG AS THAT HIGHER LEVEL PLAYER DOES NOT RUN AWAY FROM OTHER PEOPLE IN THE GROUP WHICH IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT and what I have been repeatedly referencing while you have been all over the map.
But the entire matter is moot IMO, no one can enter the last area till all party members are together.
If someone wants to run through a dungeon and cool their heels for a slower player to get there so be it...
But to complain that you have to wait on them when you could avoid that wait by sticking with the group, helping out less experienced or lower level players navigate the dungeon so that everyone can arrive at the gate at the same time - just seems silly and totally self serving to me.
This conversation reminds me of a story;
Two men are walking through the woods and one asks the other: "What if we see a bear?"
The second man replies "Simple, we run."
The first man thinks about it for a bit and asks: "Can we outrun a bear?"
And the second man says: "All I have to do is outrun you."
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
After I time I do hope they reintroduce the level restrictions where higher level players (level 70) are not allowed to run lower level dungeons (level 12) - at least unless that higher level player is in a party with a low level player that actually qualifies for that level dungeon. {Yeah I know that's probably going to tick a bunch of high level - low dungeon grinders off} but with the game so deleteriously reducing the opportunities for players to earn AD's, even I can see the logic and sensibility of farming for AD's in the quickest and easiest manner available.
IMO that would keep higher level players from farming lower level dungeons,
then complaining that people don't keep up.Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
In this hypothetical reality where "some bad things may happen to certain people but not to others" there's a saying for this.. it's called "HAMSTER happens". It doesn't really make sense to urge players to go out of their way to change the normal expected play behavior instilled by the game just because of the tiny possibility something may go wrong for a few people now and then.
Why would one player not be able to outrun the mobs quickly? And if they don't have the desire to contribute to the dungeon they don't deserve the rewards of the dungeon which I've already covered.
Once again (and for the final time in this thread) the higher level players are doing the dungeon and the lower players are refusing to stick with their group members. Stop trying to turn this around on the people who are playing to the objective the way it's intended.
The "complaint that I have to wait on slow players" was a hypothetical advocacy complaint in opposition to the complaint that players are running through the dungeon to actually complete it. I'm basically turning the tables, where a bunch of people are blaming others who successfully run the dungeon for being "HAMSTER" just because some players refuse to keep up. If anything, this complaint is more legitimate than the former for reasons already mentioned several times.
The "story" analogy is a poor one considering the bulk of the mobs (in the worst-case scenario that not every single monster is killed) are what could potentially kill a player and these mobs are already gone by the time the player reaches the areas they spawned at originally. It's not as if 0 monsters are being killed and they are all just piling up and standing there waiting for the low level guy to come along so they can all jump him. You guys are painting the picture this way but this isn't reality at all. sometimes artifacts drop that are worth 100-150k AD in the AH. Once again, the thread is people complaining that higher level players exist, basically.. considering the complaint is illegitimate from the start because they way they are claiming things go down in CT are not in-fact the way they go down.
Tornado Of Souls
I challenge you to roll a new toon (use a new account if you don't have open slots), level it normally and run CT at a level around 15 +/- 3, which is the level intended or CT. Use only standard gear normally available to it at that level for a new player (meaning no higher end mounts, insignias, enchants, gear) and just TRY to keep up with me if I don't kill everything along the way for you.
We'll make a video of it and post it on this thread. Should only take you a couple hours max to level up to 12. Let me know when you have a toon ready, and we'll see if your position still holds.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
I have a lot of work to do, I do a lot of things every day to make money so things like this are really at the bottom of my list.
The complaints seem to be that the low player dies as a result of not being able to keep up rather than simply not being able to keep up.
Also the 5 alts I have all did cloak tower without special insignias or anything like that.
Tornado Of Souls
I use gladiators guile on my chars and 2k movement mount bonus. He uses nothing like that. It works.
Before the rework some of them dropped from the bonus boss that has been removed and other bosses along the way. Now they are just scattered on the floor. If someone picks up an item and does not place it on chest before leaving you are screwed. If you get a max level speed run to chest and leave AD farming me me me type you are screwed.
About the only way to get the two bonus chests are if you manage to pick up all the items yourself and place them on the two bonus chests at the end of the run.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
Just Because you jumped in and try to change the subject of the thread to "why don't people keep up", or erroneously attempt to claim; "this thread is people complaining that higher level players exist" doesn't change actual and intended purpose of this thread as far as I'm concerned.
There seems to be a purpose for the game requiring a number of players before anyone can run a dungeon, it's called "forming a party", and the purpose of a party is to quest together to give support to other players when and where necessary or just arrive at the end at the same time NOT for one or two players to run off to do their own thing and leave other members of the party to catch up. I agree with the origional posted that those who run off from the rest of the party and particularly those who do so and do not kill the opponents along the way are impolite and inconsiderate to say the very least.
And again you attempt to put the onus of not keeping the party together on the slower player who may not have the ability or experience to do so just tends to show quite a bit of ignorance, arrogance or possibly both on your part as does your suggestion that any low level player should be able to handle mobs of remaining opponents (remember the origional premise was that the run away character did not kill the opponents as they ran through) or even a few remaining opponents as far as I'm concerned.
The next time you're in the game press your "C" button and look at your character attributes, particularly your "run speed" - "defense" - "deflection" - "power" - CRIT and AP...
Now if you have more than one character open up the character attributes of a couple more characters, orbetter yet make a new character and run it up to around level 15 - the appropriate level for questing in the Cloak Tower - and compare that player's stats with the first higher level player you created.Are the stats identical?
Probably not - THAT's why some players do not have the "ability to outrun mobs quickly", it has sometimes (often times IMO, as I think few people want to lag behind in a dungeon with opponents in their path) nothing to do with "desire" or "choice", even though you might have the ability, again its not always a matter of "choice" or "desire" despite your attempting to repeatedly claim it is.
And it is not a complaint that you have to wait for slower players... it's been pointed out that it is the "polite" and considerate thing to do, but that you don't and don't think you should have to, again speaks to your character IMO...
And still the fact remains that regardless of whether or not you want to wait at the final gate for the entire party to arrive, you have to wait for the slower or less experienced, or "just wanted to look around" player to arrive - you have to wait for that player to arrive before you can so through that last gate...
And if I happen to be the slow member in the party who can't - or as you say "won't" keep up - I just might take a little longer than I normally would have to, just to return the consideration, or more accurately the lack of consideration that I've been shown.
I hope to see you in a CT quest party real soon...
But i really hate some bad manners people with elitist attitude that trying to dictate how others play this game. I once got told by the other lvl70 player, not to do fast run and telling me i m making it difficult for the other low lvl. While he, himself is standing next to me right before the final boss instead of fighting beside the low lvl guy. I mean if he feel the low level guy needed the help he could turn back to help him instead of waiting with me at the campfire and complaining? I will only turn back if the low level died or something convince me he is really having difficulty. Else i wont judge or intrude his fun for exploring or killing mob. So guys, before u judge or dictating how others play the game, please be respectful of other player that play the game. Its ok to create awareness but please do not dictate others how to play the game. Its just rude.
Lastly, i felt abit pity for cloak tower that level 70 are able do it with lvl14 difficulty. Its a well design dungeon that got turn into AD grinding zone. I still remember how fun it is back in mod3 when i m doing it for the 1st time at lvl18 with other similar level player. Now its all about lvl70 one shotting everything.