Combat - How should it be played?

soonergm

I don't play combat tree, I probably never will. But I am curious... I see posts from people that want the combat tree fixed, and generally they want to be able to do more damage. From what I understand, the combat tree has always been more of a tanky build. Why should a tanky build need significant DPS boosting? Trapper is already the crowd control\dps build. Archery probably should be more of a heavy hitter to single targets.

But yeah, how do you guys feel combat should be played?

ghoulz66

The only way you can do combat atm is go combat archery hybrid. Using rain of arrows buffed by long shot along with the ranged at-wills, making use of plant growth or whichever. The at-wills should not be used, despite the flurry capstone!

You can do all of this as trapper anyway so there's no reason to go combat aside from being a total nerd for it. Hybrid trapper with longshot is vastly superior to combat with longshot.

jaymadiv

The Combat Capstone only affects Melee At-wills. this insinuates a focus on at-will damage for the Combat tree, especially since Combat does not get encounter cooldown feats.

the problem with this, is that the melee at-wills do far less damage than they should.

"tanky" or not, HRs are not a tank class. they are DPS, their job is to do damage. and should do competitive damage regardless of spec. the specs dictate HOW this damage is done. archers at range, combat in melee, trapper a mix of the two. this does not mean that one spec should purposely do far less damage than the others.

@ghoulz66 has a better handle on it than I do, so I'll let him explain the main issues.

marnival

But yeah, how do you guys feel combat should be played?

Atm not at all would be the answer am afraid......

lirithiel

Want to know how a Combat HR should be played? Read a fight from an R.A. Salvatore novel involving Drizzt. He is brutal with Twinkle and Icingdeath. Lightning-fast, agile and deadly. I still don't see why OH damage has to be lower than MH damage. Combat has 2 swords FFS. Combat needs that movement we had in Mods 2 and 3 with the speed bonus from the pvp set. It's embarrassing that even GFs move faster than us. Combat should be in-your-face but survivable enough to stay in melee for the most part.

ghoulz66

Amenar is being too stubborn to go on the facts. A trapper can do more damage at a distance with the safety of roots, where combat fails both ways in melee. Whatever logic that is. Combat is the reverse GWF, a mod 1 GWF with no DPS.

An oppressor is better DPS. A scoundrel is better DPS. A DPS DC is better DPS. A conqueror is better DPS. Even a DPS spec OP tank is better DPS FFS!

This whole class balance is a total joke. They can't even get all 3 trees to be viable. Well I guess the GWF is going to be screwed too then if they couldn't even get the HR or even SW trees all functional.

soonergm

lirithiel said:

Want to know how a Combat HR should be played? Read a fight from an R.A. Salvatore novel involving Drizzt. He is brutal with Twinkle and Icingdeath. Lightning-fast, agile and deadly. I still don't see why OH damage has to be lower than MH damage. Combat has 2 swords FFS. Combat needs that movement we had in Mods 2 and 3 with the speed bonus from the pvp set. It's embarrassing that even GFs move faster than us. Combat should be in-your-face but survivable enough to stay in melee for the most part.

that actually does sound fun. fast play style sounds like trapper, although i understand the mechanics themselves differ. but it's the quick pace that attracts me to trapper.

armwald

lirithiel said:

Want to know how a Combat HR should be played? Read a fight from an R.A. Salvatore novel involving Drizzt. He is brutal with Twinkle and Icingdeath. Lightning-fast, agile and deadly. I still don't see why OH damage has to be lower than MH damage. Combat has 2 swords FFS. Combat needs that movement we had in Mods 2 and 3 with the speed bonus from the pvp set. It's embarrassing that even GFs move faster than us. Combat should be in-your-face but survivable enough to stay in melee for the most part.

EVERYTHING MOVES FASTER THAN A HR !!!!

In battle speed buffs help

Getting to the next fight is painful (I am VIP 12 but I still have to check if I have injured legs it is terrible)

wdj40

armwald said:

lirithiel said:

Want to know how a Combat HR should be played? Read a fight from an R.A. Salvatore novel involving Drizzt. He is brutal with Twinkle and Icingdeath. Lightning-fast, agile and deadly. I still don't see why OH damage has to be lower than MH damage. Combat has 2 swords FFS. Combat needs that movement we had in Mods 2 and 3 with the speed bonus from the pvp set. It's embarrassing that even GFs move faster than us. Combat should be in-your-face but survivable enough to stay in melee for the most part.

EVERYTHING MOVES FASTER THAN A HR !!!!

In battle speed buffs help

Getting to the next fight is painful (I am VIP 12 but I still have to check if I have injured legs it is terrible)

Get 800 Movement and then equip Gladiator's Guile Mount Bonus... very little moves faster than me when I am running through dungeons or whatever. In battle Longstrider increases this as well for very large movement gains... also equip Shepherd's Devotion Mount bonus... In battle I get my power up pretty darn high and I buff myself and my allies around me with around 4k Movement, Defence and Deflect when I use a Daily.

lirithiel

wdj40 said:

armwald said:

lirithiel said:

Want to know how a Combat HR should be played? Read a fight from an R.A. Salvatore novel involving Drizzt. He is brutal with Twinkle and Icingdeath. Lightning-fast, agile and deadly. I still don't see why OH damage has to be lower than MH damage. Combat has 2 swords FFS. Combat needs that movement we had in Mods 2 and 3 with the speed bonus from the pvp set. It's embarrassing that even GFs move faster than us. Combat should be in-your-face but survivable enough to stay in melee for the most part.

EVERYTHING MOVES FASTER THAN A HR !!!!

In battle speed buffs help

Getting to the next fight is painful (I am VIP 12 but I still have to check if I have injured legs it is terrible)

Get 800 Movement and then equip Gladiator's Guile Mount Bonus... very little moves faster than me when I am running through dungeons or whatever. In battle Longstrider increases this as well for very large movement gains... also equip Shepherd's Devotion Mount bonus... In battle I get my power up pretty darn high and I buff myself and my allies around me with around 4k Movement, Defence and Deflect when I use a Daily.

We shouldn't have to rely on mount bonuses and insignias just to keep up with the Jones'.

About Combat: How are the testers finding the playsyle? On live I'm using Rain of Swords, Fox Shift and Plant Growth, along with their ranged counterparts, which is okay. But with the change to Gushing Wound I tried a different set-up with Marauder's, GW and Plant Growth but the CDs are so long that I battle to make it feel as fluid as my usual playstyle.

aaramis75

Also, 800 movement + Gladiator's = what, 17% movement?
TRs can run at that speed with just Skillful Infiltrator alone. Throw in Gladiator's and they have an innate +35% runspeed. +60% every few seconds if Dying Breath (Exe tree).

We're still quite slow comparatively.

As I pointed out in the preview section, both Archery and Trapper have a feat with some movement tied in. Combat, for some reason, doesn't. I don't see why it couldn't have either a base innate movement boost or a burst movement tied in to a feat, so that people don't feel forced to run Gladiator's and/or go Pathfinder and slot Pathfinder's Action and spam a low-cost daily.

armwald

EVERYTHING MOVES FASTER THAN A HR !!!!

In battle speed buffs help

Getting to the next fight is painful (I am VIP 12 but I still have to check if I have injured legs it is terrible)

Get 800 Movement and then equip Gladiator's Guile Mount Bonus... very little moves faster than me when I am running through dungeons or whatever. In battle Longstrider increases this as well for very large movement gains... also equip Shepherd's Devotion Mount bonus... In battle I get my power up pretty darn high and I buff myself and my allies around me with around 4k Movement, Defence and Deflect when I use a Daily.

In battle speed is fine I have 900 movement it is getting to the next battle that is a pain see stairs in CN I am always last to the 2nd boss que.

rayrdan

if you are interested im proposing to change dodges into a sprint that can offer HRs the mobility and DR they need.
Image to move as fast as a gwf getting the goodie of the new shadow slip from SW.
Our dodges just suck compared to that.
go check the feedback thread and bump me up

@armwald

armwald

rayrdan said:

if you are interested im proposing to change dodges into a sprint that can offer HRs the mobility and DR they need.
Image to move as fast as a gwf getting the goodie of the new shadow slip from SW.
Our dodges just suck compared to that.
go check the feedback thread and bump me up

@armwald

Will do

soonergm

i don't know if i like a sprint over some kind of dodge. i know the dodge distance is trash, but there are nice things about it. for example, timing your dodge right to avoid AoE damage.

wdj40

armwald said:

EVERYTHING MOVES FASTER THAN A HR !!!!

In battle speed buffs help

Getting to the next fight is painful (I am VIP 12 but I still have to check if I have injured legs it is terrible)

Get 800 Movement and then equip Gladiator's Guile Mount Bonus... very little moves faster than me when I am running through dungeons or whatever. In battle Longstrider increases this as well for very large movement gains... also equip Shepherd's Devotion Mount bonus... In battle I get my power up pretty darn high and I buff myself and my allies around me with around 4k Movement, Defence and Deflect when I use a Daily.

In battle speed is fine I have 900 movement it is getting to the next battle that is a pain see stairs in CN I am always last to the 2nd boss que.



Which is totally weird dude, I am generally 1st to the next door in whatever dungeon. Usually GWF's Sprint off and I end up catching up to them... SW also have that shift which makes them faster for a while and GF's ITF sometimes boosts everyone or misses a couple of people.

I usually end up catching up to the sprinters and shifters etc... There are 1 or 2 characters that do beat me to the next door and they are usually DC's for some reason lol.

wdj40

rayrdan said:

if you are interested im proposing to change dodges into a sprint that can offer HRs the mobility and DR they need.
Image to move as fast as a gwf getting the goodie of the new shadow slip from SW.
Our dodges just suck compared to that.
go check the feedback thread and bump me up

@armwald

See I disagree with you here, I absolutely love our shift mechanism and would not want to change it much. Just a bigger distance and less Stamina consumption/regen delay would be nice.

rayrdan

wdj40 said:

rayrdan said:

if you are interested im proposing to change dodges into a sprint that can offer HRs the mobility and DR they need.
Image to move as fast as a gwf getting the goodie of the new shadow slip from SW.
Our dodges just suck compared to that.
go check the feedback thread and bump me up

@armwald

See I disagree with you here, I absolutely love our shift mechanism and would not want to change it much. Just a bigger distance and less Stamina consumption/regen delay would be nice.

@wdj40 when reading my posts you should not see my as a HR advocate.
i m just a player that saw the whole HR evolution in 3 and so years playing in great pvp guild (synergy/absolute/chocolate shop) and great full pve ones (gravityxgame the one im actually in) . Using ACT as it was bread and butter.
Of course my opinions may be biased ( at least for you, but of course they are a bit) but act gave me numbers for 3 years....
i m pretty much known by everyone that plays this game (not like this is important) but this brings to talk with them and known what they really want and complain about.
Right now i feel my comments are fitting a great number of HRs' desires.
Your feedback for devs is valuable as much as mine, the only difference is that in 3 years i stockpiled 4k posts more than you (and this again for devs makes no difference).
just take in mind, i act for the good of everyone.
Archery is almost playable, trapper kept its playstlye, combat is a fighter at least in pvp.
i would call them good results.
i m sure sprint over dodges would make them even better. The things you are able to dodge right now, are 10x times easier to handle with sw sprint to name one.
Im not one of those happy american players with low ping sadly.

lirithiel

Thinking about how I envision HR, a sprint would be better suited to the class, with GWF getting our short dodges instead. Realistically it makes much more sense. We should be quickly in and out of combat. If not a sprint we should have a lot more innate movement speed. Combat is just too slow since we lost the speed bonus from the old pvp sets. Someone else noted that HR sometimes sprint forward ninja syle (my Combat HR does that and I have no idea why myself)and it would be cool if we got that type of sprint animation and not something silly like GWF or annoying as SW.

thefabricant

armwald said:

lirithiel said:

Want to know how a Combat HR should be played? Read a fight from an R.A. Salvatore novel involving Drizzt. He is brutal with Twinkle and Icingdeath. Lightning-fast, agile and deadly. I still don't see why OH damage has to be lower than MH damage. Combat has 2 swords FFS. Combat needs that movement we had in Mods 2 and 3 with the speed bonus from the pvp set. It's embarrassing that even GFs move faster than us. Combat should be in-your-face but survivable enough to stay in melee for the most part.

EVERYTHING MOVES FASTER THAN A HR !!!!

In battle speed buffs help

Getting to the next fight is painful (I am VIP 12 but I still have to check if I have injured legs it is terrible)

I play a CW. Your HR does NOT move slower than my CW. No need for exaggerations.

lirithiel

thefabricant said:

armwald said:

lirithiel said:

Want to know how a Combat HR should be played? Read a fight from an R.A. Salvatore novel involving Drizzt. He is brutal with Twinkle and Icingdeath. Lightning-fast, agile and deadly. I still don't see why OH damage has to be lower than MH damage. Combat has 2 swords FFS. Combat needs that movement we had in Mods 2 and 3 with the speed bonus from the pvp set. It's embarrassing that even GFs move faster than us. Combat should be in-your-face but survivable enough to stay in melee for the most part.

EVERYTHING MOVES FASTER THAN A HR !!!!

In battle speed buffs help

Getting to the next fight is painful (I am VIP 12 but I still have to check if I have injured legs it is terrible)

I play a CW. Your HR does NOT move slower than my CW. No need for exaggerations.

Dude I have to dodge 3 times for every one you do!

jaymadiv

I would be incredibly disappointed if we lost the ability to shift around in combat, just because a few people have GWF envy and want to be able to rush ahead of everyone.

Shifting around mobs and out of red in combat is incredibly useful, not to mention fun and cool, it's one of the things I really like about the class. during fights I shift constantly. I'd absolutely hate to lose this.

then again, I see shifting as a combat mechanism, not as a way to finish a dungeon 20 seconds faster.

rayrdan

this console servers are really that better than ours????

wdj40

rayrdan said:

wdj40 said:

rayrdan said:

if you are interested im proposing to change dodges into a sprint that can offer HRs the mobility and DR they need.
Image to move as fast as a gwf getting the goodie of the new shadow slip from SW.
Our dodges just suck compared to that.
go check the feedback thread and bump me up

@armwald

See I disagree with you here, I absolutely love our shift mechanism and would not want to change it much. Just a bigger distance and less Stamina consumption/regen delay would be nice.

@wdj40 when reading my posts you should not see my as a HR advocate.
i m just a player that saw the whole HR evolution in 3 and so years playing in great pvp guild (synergy/absolute/chocolate shop) and great full pve ones (gravityxgame the one im actually in) . Using ACT as it was bread and butter.
Of course my opinions may be biased ( at least for you, but of course they are a bit) but act gave me numbers for 3 years....
i m pretty much known by everyone that plays this game (not like this is important) but this brings to talk with them and known what they really want and complain about.
Right now i feel my comments are fitting a great number of HRs' desires.
Your feedback for devs is valuable as much as mine, the only difference is that in 3 years i stockpiled 4k posts more than you (and this again for devs makes no difference).
just take in mind, i act for the good of everyone.
Archery is almost playable, trapper kept its playstlye, combat is a fighter at least in pvp.
i would call them good results.
i m sure sprint over dodges would make them even better. The things you are able to dodge right now, are 10x times easier to handle with sw sprint to name one.
Im not one of those happy american players with low ping sadly.

Wow, ok dude I was only saying I like the HR Shift Mechanism... no biggy

feanor70118

In pve, playing on preview I was easily staying alive soloing the Remorhaz HE using ambush/rain/cordon with lone wolf and pathfinder's action aspects. I was, however, using all my pvp heal insignia bonuses and didn't test with my more aggressive pve bonuses. Open with ambush, hit anything in your way with rain and cordon, sneak up and kill it with rain of swords and plant growth, throw in an aimed strike if you feel like it. I also fooled around a bit with longstrider's instead of rain, but given the behavior of NW mobs all rushing the player, I feel like the AoE from rain is probably more useful. I didn't have any trouble melting things short of the big remorhaz but (HE level young remorhazes, 10-man HEs and so one were no problem at all) haven't run an epic dungeon in preview yet.

In pvp I pretty easily tore down a BiS SW who was even wearing an ambush ring, even though I was clumsily using a rotation I had never used before (ambush/boar/cordon), but I suspect that was all due to piercing blade being overpowered (hey, it's like playing a no-skill class like TR or GF now!). Tomorrow I'll test a combat+longshot build just for fun.

aaramis75

feanor70118 said:

I also fooled around a bit with longstrider's instead of rain, but given the behavior of NW mobs all rushing the player, I feel like the AoE from rain is probably more useful.

Same experience here. Not an issue as Archery or Trapper (due to movement bonuses, or CC, respectively), but as Combat has neither, once you're in the thick of things there's no getting out easily - especially if solo.

On the plus side, though, the Piercing Blades feat is working incredibly well with things such as Plant Growth - almost too well, unfortunately, as several people are suggesting nerfing it. Hopefully that doesn't happen, as it's the one and only really good burst Combat has. Blade Hurricane spam, as nice as it is, isn't accounting for a huge % of damage dealth - Piercing Blades is doing that, for the most part.

Ambush is certainly nice, but the counterpart Bear Trap still sucks unfortunately. Fingers crossed for a last minute buff to it to give Pathfinders something useful, since the draw to go Stormwarden and have CtG, Blade Storm, and CSH is still pretty big.

lirithiel

I've started using Throw Caution, along with Split the Sky, on live and left out Rain. The damage buff (don't know how much) lasts for 10 seconds so I can get in extra damage from more sources during that time. Thinking of weening myself off Plant Growth, though, for something that is more single-target orientated - maybe Gushing Wound, but it means I won't be using Longstrider's Shot much - just as an opener. I've got AoE pretty much covered and the debuff to me from Throw Caution is covered by Lifesteal.

armwald

thefabricant said:

armwald said:

lirithiel said:

Want to know how a Combat HR should be played? Read a fight from an R.A. Salvatore novel involving Drizzt. He is brutal with Twinkle and Icingdeath. Lightning-fast, agile and deadly. I still don't see why OH damage has to be lower than MH damage. Combat has 2 swords FFS. Combat needs that movement we had in Mods 2 and 3 with the speed bonus from the pvp set. It's embarrassing that even GFs move faster than us. Combat should be in-your-face but survivable enough to stay in melee for the most part.

EVERYTHING MOVES FASTER THAN A HR !!!!

In battle speed buffs help

Getting to the next fight is painful (I am VIP 12 but I still have to check if I have injured legs it is terrible)

I play a CW. Your HR does NOT move slower than my CW. No need for exaggerations.

No exaggerations OUT of Combat it is not close because your dodge which speeds you up travels 4-5 further than a HR (4' now wow)

soonergm

i have a CW, and the dodge for it is not that good, mainly because the delay from the animation. takes a bit for the dodge to actually happen, and then takes a little longer to be able to start moving again after you have dodged. what ends up happening most of the time that i noticed is i will dodge, and that puts me ahead of someone, and then the person catches back up to me when i can start running again. overall it seems like a net 0 gain. also the CW waddles along awkwardly and slowly. i like the play the CW, but ultimately decided to stop playing on it because the movement is that slow. seems slower than HR.

but... HR base speed should be very fast, much faster than we are currently.

gabrieldourden

For PVE I would echo @rayrdan . I'd love to get the SW sprint (my second toon is an SW) especially when you see monsters with AoE as big as a swimming pool. The only way to get out is dodge spamming three dodges (sometimes four) and hoping for the best. The change to the dodge length going live today is helping (in my testing I'm down to 2-3 dodges vs. 3-4 before).
I tried Combat for a few hours last weekend and in solo it seems that Rain/PG/Fox is still the way to go, but had good results with Ambush/PG/Fox too. Unfortunately I couldn't test combat in FBI (too many guildies on holiday to get a group).

rayrdan

gabrieldourden said:

For PVE I would echo @rayrdan . I'd love to get the SW sprint (my second toon is an SW) especially when you see monsters with AoE as big as a swimming pool. The only way to get out is dodge spamming three dodges (sometimes four) and hoping for the best. The change to the dodge length going live today is helping (in my testing I'm down to 2-3 dodges vs. 3-4 before).

I tried Combat for a few hours last weekend and in solo it seems that Rain/PG/Fox is still the way to go, but had good results with Ambush/PG/Fox too. Unfortunately I couldn't test combat in FBI (too many guildies on holiday to get a group).

i m going to play combat for a while, the idea is thorn ward plant growth and fox
i hope to not get bored fast for those cooldowns.

trapper with hawk eye is going to rock