Aura of Courage vs Aura of Wrath

soonergm

First let me explain what I am doing, which will help people understand why I am curious about the two Aura's mentioned in the title.

I am currently experimenting with a protection build in the justice tree that utilizes life steal with prism. Why? To be different, for fun, and because this is a secondary character that can not get a bubble back quickly enough to keep squishier toons most of the time. What I can do is use Shield of Faith, which is pretty decent still, especially if I am healing everyone with lifesteal. This means that the traditional rotation of Binding Oath, Burning Light, and Templar's Wrath has to be changed. Obviously I can still use those encounters when needed, but there won't be any healing unless I am running with another healer.

Back to the title.

I want to know if Aura of Courage is actually mathematically better than Aura of Wrath, or if we have always just accepted it as such because using BO, and Templar's our HP rarely diminishes, so the buff from Wrath is wildly inconsistent. However with the build I am playing around with, my HP is constantly diminishing and replenishing. Wrath should be giving out at 35% buff to damage at 4 points, plus throw in 3 stacks of Bane on bosses for 30% more buff to damage(and damage reduction for party) + Aura of Gifts. All of a sudden this protection pally is a pretty decent buffer, tank, and healer, that can deal a bit of damage as well with the right set up at higher IL.

I'm also interested in knowing of Wrath functions while we have temporary HP from Templar's Wrath. They are hitpoints, and they will diminish. However, does that count for the Aura?

Finally, I imagine Aura of Courage is nice with a group of lower IL players, where it takes longer to kill things and it can proc repeatedly over time. But with a more explosive team, getting that 35% buff at onset of battle seems like it would be more beneficial to me.

I am hoping @thefabricant , @kolatmaster or anyone else that has done some testing and experimenting will put their 2 cents in on this thread. It's been pretty dead in the citadel lately, LOL.

thefabricant

If you have low enough HP, then yes, wrath has the potential to be better.

soonergm

Thank you for the response.

I'm actually impressed that Courage is that good... better than 35% for the party. This means to me that depending upon the makeup of the party, it could be very beneficial to run with both Courage and Wrath and become a monster damage buffer for the party.

marnival

Make a party that will be to your liking for test, run through some instance Throne room or simular with the different set ups until you find out what you want. Run ACT if you can to for a better result.

armadeonx

I never thought of combining prism with lifesteal - interesting. I'm guessing if you added a trans lightning, it'll be triggering almost 100% of the time in mobs...

Unknown

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treesclimber

theslotharmy#3268 said:

soonergm said:

Bane on bosses for 30% more buff to damage(

I am 100% sure that's not how bane works. . .

It is.

slappdaniel

treesclimber said:

theslotharmy#3268 said:

soonergm said:

Bane on bosses for 30% more buff to damage(

I am 100% sure that's not how bane works. . .

It is.

BUT he is 100% sure

thefabricant

treesclimber said:

theslotharmy#3268 said:

soonergm said:

Bane on bosses for 30% more buff to damage(

I am 100% sure that's not how bane works. . .

It is.

It isn't.

slappdaniel said:

treesclimber said:

theslotharmy#3268 said:

soonergm said:

Bane on bosses for 30% more buff to damage(

I am 100% sure that's not how bane works. . .

It is.

BUT he is 100% sure

Bane is a 30% DR debuff (the category most debuffs fall into) which means it adds with other DR debuffs and multiplies with Defense debuffs/multiplier debuffs. This means that bane is only a 30% dps boost assuming there are no other DR debuffs. My average party has 350-400% effectiveness without a pally from DR debuffs, a pally would take that to 380-430% effectiveness with bane, which is is a 7.5-8.5% party dps increase.

However, if you use bane on a single ally (assuming devotion), it then functions as a buff. The difference between buffs and debuffs is buffs are always multiplicative where as debuffs are sometimes additive and sometimes multiplicative. This means that for that single ally, it is a 30% dps increase, but you would need to multiply that DPS increase by the percentage of the parties DPS that individual was making up without bane, to work out how much of a party dps increase it is.

rubytrue

I find using lifesteal to proc prism really interesting. Could be the basis for a "Dark Paladin" theme. Can anyone tell me if you can proc lifesteal if you have either 1)full health, or 2)Temp HPs over full HP.

I know at full health it wouldn't show if you proc'ed lifesteal, but that doesn't mean it didn't proc....

I don't have enough respec tokens to find out on my own, so if anyone can fill me in on lifesteal mechanics, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Fat E

Unknown

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soonergm

theslotharmy#3268 said:

rubytrue said:

Can anyone tell me if you can proc lifesteal if you have either 1)full health, or 2)Temp HPs over full HP.

Fat E

No and No

It will only proc if your health has drained, but it will proc over TEMP HP if your true health has been changed.

i agree with this from my observations.

i am really interested to see how things go after i do a lot of upgrading after this next double refinement point. as it stands, for most mobs i can go in without using templar's wrath and there is a lot of healing going on. however for most bosses i have to revert to using templar's wrath, or binding oath, for survival purposes, which practically nullifies prism.

if i have a GF in party, i can let them act as tank and let prism proc.

arcanjo86

i like the idea ur going to, have u ever thought about switching TW for CT maybe, im not sure about my words.

rubytrue

TW should still be fine for a lifesteal/prism build, and I would argue, almost a necessity. TW lets you really dip into your hitpoints because the temp HPs act as a buffer; you can take a lot more damage and have a sliver of your regular HPs while, at the same time, have an almost full yellow bar. As long as your regular hitpoint (red bar) is low, lifesteal, and I would imagine, Aura of Wrath will proc as well. I may be mistaken about this, however.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

soonergm

theslotharmy#3268 said:

OH did I also mention this idea was terrible?

Ya it's not going to work well and for the effort you put in it will end up being worse than just using aura of courage.
Also the duration your HP will be low is too short for it to be useful.

Love,
TheSlothArmy

the other idea is to run both courage and wrath at the same time, if the situation is right. because the other go to aura tends to be wisdom, which doesn't even benefit some classes.

just to experiment for now, i slapped a sudden life steal ring on my companion, and this is where the majority of lifesteal is coming from at the moment. i don't know the hard numbers of wrath... but if it works as HP is diminishing, then you are incorrect. because without TW, my HP are constantly diminishing, and healing. there is also healing coming from insignia bonuses.

also, as @rubytrue mentioned, you can still use TW for an "oh HAMSTER" moment encounter, letting your HP drop and then hitting TW to keep from going down. but, it is situational based on the amount of damage you are taking. if the damage is low then your temporary HP from wrath will last too long and you will heal up completely.

anyone that happens to be have Prism can play around and see what i am talking about with a lifesteal ring.

armadeonx said:

I never thought of combining prism with lifesteal - interesting. I'm guessing if you added a trans lightning, it'll be triggering almost 100% of the time in mobs...

is it a certainty that the lightning chains can proc lifesteal?

thefabricant said:

treesclimber said:

theslotharmy#3268 said:

soonergm said:

Bane on bosses for 30% more buff to damage(

I am 100% sure that's not how bane works. . .

It is.

It isn't.

slappdaniel said:

treesclimber said:

theslotharmy#3268 said:

soonergm said:

Bane on bosses for 30% more buff to damage(

I am 100% sure that's not how bane works. . .

It is.

BUT he is 100% sure

Bane is a 30% DR debuff (the category most debuffs fall into) which means it adds with other DR debuffs and multiplies with Defense debuffs/multiplier debuffs. This means that bane is only a 30% dps boost assuming there are no other DR debuffs. My average party has 350-400% effectiveness without a pally from DR debuffs, a pally would take that to 380-430% effectiveness with bane, which is is a 7.5-8.5% party dps increase.

However, if you use bane on a single ally (assuming devotion), it then functions as a buff. The difference between buffs and debuffs is buffs are always multiplicative where as debuffs are sometimes additive and sometimes multiplicative. This means that for that single ally, it is a 30% dps increase, but you would need to multiply that DPS increase by the percentage of the parties DPS that individual was making up without bane, to work out how much of a party dps increase it is.

you mentioned how bane works in another thread, since my original post in this one. it's unfortunate because the tool tip is misleading. is it safe to say that any damage bonus in the game that is applied to an enemy acts as a debuff, and any damage bonus that is applied to allies act as a buff?

thefabricant

soonergm said:

theslotharmy#3268 said:

OH did I also mention this idea was terrible?

Ya it's not going to work well and for the effort you put in it will end up being worse than just using aura of courage.
Also the duration your HP will be low is too short for it to be useful.

Love,
TheSlothArmy

the other idea is to run both courage and wrath at the same time, if the situation is right. because the other go to aura tends to be wisdom, which doesn't even benefit some classes.

just to experiment for now, i slapped a sudden life steal ring on my companion, and this is where the majority of lifesteal is coming from at the moment. i don't know the hard numbers of wrath... but if it works as HP is diminishing, then you are incorrect. because without TW, my HP are constantly diminishing, and healing. there is also healing coming from insignia bonuses.

also, as @rubytrue mentioned, you can still use TW for an "oh ****" moment encounter, letting your HP drop and then hitting TW to keep from going down. but, it is situational based on the amount of damage you are taking. if the damage is low then your temporary HP from wrath will last too long and you will heal up completely.

anyone that happens to be have Prism can play around and see what i am talking about with a lifesteal ring.

armadeonx said:

I never thought of combining prism with lifesteal - interesting. I'm guessing if you added a trans lightning, it'll be triggering almost 100% of the time in mobs...

is it a certainty that the lightning chains can proc lifesteal?

thefabricant said:

treesclimber said:

theslotharmy#3268 said:

soonergm said:

Bane on bosses for 30% more buff to damage(

I am 100% sure that's not how bane works. . .

It is.

It isn't.

slappdaniel said:

treesclimber said:

theslotharmy#3268 said:

soonergm said:

Bane on bosses for 30% more buff to damage(

I am 100% sure that's not how bane works. . .

It is.

BUT he is 100% sure

Bane is a 30% DR debuff (the category most debuffs fall into) which means it adds with other DR debuffs and multiplies with Defense debuffs/multiplier debuffs. This means that bane is only a 30% dps boost assuming there are no other DR debuffs. My average party has 350-400% effectiveness without a pally from DR debuffs, a pally would take that to 380-430% effectiveness with bane, which is is a 7.5-8.5% party dps increase.

However, if you use bane on a single ally (assuming devotion), it then functions as a buff. The difference between buffs and debuffs is buffs are always multiplicative where as debuffs are sometimes additive and sometimes multiplicative. This means that for that single ally, it is a 30% dps increase, but you would need to multiply that DPS increase by the percentage of the parties DPS that individual was making up without bane, to work out how much of a party dps increase it is.

you mentioned how bane works in another thread, since my original post in this one. it's unfortunate because the tool tip is misleading. is it safe to say that any damage bonus in the game that is applied to an enemy acts as a debuff, and any damage bonus that is applied to allies act as a buff?

Yes.

rubytrue

Just out of curiosity, if you went with a courage/wrath build, could the lightning weapon enchants help with the loss of recharge from dropping Aura of Wisdom? How exactly does the recharge bonus from lightning enchants work with AoEs like Burning Guidance?

Thanks.

Fat E