It's truly amazing how many ppl who have no idea how the Protection paladin class works and have never played one are screaming no, I agree that 20 seconds was way to long and that it degraded people's ability to properly run dungeons, and in pvp we were immortal but why destroy a class that so many like myself have put so much time and effort into building a close to BIS pally and not offer a rework or an alternative power or mechanic to replace the one that was nerfed, it's not just Divine Protector that was taken away binding oath was nerfed echoes was nerfed and we have broken threat generation that was not addressed and all that was given in return, a free respec token for your troubles! A total rework of the class from top to bottom is in order, Devotion is really the only viable path at this point for new Pallys and that is just sad. It will truly be interesting to see the next set of class reworks and how ppl feel when what they have worked so hard for is taken away.
null Exactly, what people need is less whining and more experimenting to adapt to the new changes, that is, to slighty or completely change their builds and rotations. They also need to experiment with the other classes to learn what ways are effective to complete epic content... the other day I joined a cn run (pug) and the team was at orcus fight. The gwf tried to kick the cw out but the team didn't let him (myself included) to do such a thing, I suggested we gave it a few tries and a few minutes after... Orcus got killed. The cw turned out to be a regenade build that kep ny guardian healed well enough in absence of a cleric/healadin and the gwfs helped by staying behind the boss. By the way, I do not use steel defence, dropped it months ago and I'm glad I did that.
Other things I have done in absence of healers is asking hunter rangers to use fox cunning and it works pretty well.
null The only thing I agree you on is that Paladin's threat generation needs some love but that's it. I have a prot Paladin myself, stopped using it because it was brain dead easy and took absolutely no skill, hence why I started a gf almost 6 months ago or so. (built it myself, didn't copy anyone's toon). Sure, my gf isn't the best but is improving and gets the job done, I'm glad because of what I done with it, even got congratulated by people from the top guilds (xb1) after running with them.
Are you seriously complaining about binding oath's changes? That encounter is blatantly overpowered and it's hilariously broken as you can spam it with Justice tree which 99.99% of Paladins are, it makes you almost unkillable in most situations, it does render your shield a mere cosmetic item in most case (I'm looking at you too, crazy op, spammable templar's wrath).
Echoes of light was ridiculous, it needed to get fixed, the chance to recharge powers was really high.
Prot Paladin wasn't destroyed, they still tank like gods and good ones can surive Orcus' dps, is that an issue for you? The way you guys made these posts shows a evident bubble-dependency, it's like you cannot conceive a prot paladin without permabubble/semi-permabubble, it just proves how much damage that daily has done to this community.
You decided to try to flavor of the year bubble, you should have considered that maybe, maybe that extremely overpowered daily would eventually get nerfed, especially because everyone and their brother was running one and you do know that in those cases, is not a matter or if but when, the holy nerfing hammer will hit these broken builds with all its might, then people will move on to the next flavor of the month/mod/year and the cycle starts all over again.
Test new builds to see what you can achieve, you may find something really good, you'll see that if you stop seeing the bubble as the centre of the universe, you'll learn more about your toon.
Devotion path is not the only one viable, you just need to see how protection can work... it has plenty of non-permabubble stuff you can try out.
1. completely remove the bubble altogether 2. add a 100% forced threat daily to replace it - everything in aura range is forced to go for the pally 3. boost Shield of Faith a bit 4. Increase the group buff from Aura of Courage to get on a more even footing with GF's.
That's about all they need.
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1. completely remove the bubble altogether 2. add a 100% forced threat daily to replace it - everything in aura range is forced to go for the pally 3. boost Shield of Faith a bit 4. Increase the group buff from Aura of Courage to get on a more even footing with GF's.
That's about all they need.
Never happen requires thought and insight, sadly here they just do knee jerk reactions to whining and hit the nerf button. Its sad that they keep making character investment pointless, new characters are supposed to be on the way, who in their right mind will invest in them knowing if they prove to be any good they will just render them unplayable?
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zephyriahMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,980Arc User
new characters are supposed to be on the way, who in their right mind will invest in them knowing if they prove to be any good they will just render them unplayable?
Just about anyone who has played this game for a long time. I know I certainly will. It's always fun to play the new overpowered class, at first. I will temporarily move my enchants and only upgrade artifacts/equipment with junk drops until I see how it plays out.
Every time they have introduced a new class it has been initially overpowered, then brought somewhat in line. Sometimes takes a few cycles, like with the OP. Xbox hasn't seen all this, but it happened with the HR, SW and OP on PC and it will likely happen when the next new class is added.
The bubble is not the real issue. The issue is are there 2 viable paths for an OP? Of course for other classes that is not necessarily yes but it should be (in my opinion).
The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.
Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.
The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.
Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.
As for my vote, I abstain
Thanks for commenting. Where you say you like the choices that the change has forced you to consider my opinion is there are not enough choices there. The Protection side does not have enough because threat generation is not that great no matter how you build. It is tough to get anything worthwhile out of the Protection path now.
Yes threat generation is the main thing that currently needs some type of fix, oath strike seems to be the only thing we have to make the boss notice us. Binding oath aggro doesn't seem to work at all.
The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.
Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.
As for my vote, I abstain
As a Pally player, what do you feel a protection pally offers a group that isn't equaled or bettered by a GF?
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It's not about the bubble. It's about nerfing it without exploring changes to the rest of the class. It's about having no role in a well rounded party, and about how no matter what you want to do (tank, support, heal, buff) there's another class that straight-up does it better.
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new characters are supposed to be on the way, who in their right mind will invest in them knowing if they prove to be any good they will just render them unplayable?
Just about anyone who has played this game for a long time. I know I certainly will. It's always fun to play the new overpowered class, at first. I will temporarily move my enchants and only upgrade artifacts/equipment with junk drops until I see how it plays out.
Every time they have introduced a new class it has been initially overpowered, then brought somewhat in line. Sometimes takes a few cycles, like with the OP. Xbox hasn't seen all this, but it happened with the HR, SW and OP on PC and it will likely happen when the next new class is added. </blockquoture
Not sure many would agree, 127 days in game and at a stroke 3 of my characters have been hit, Gwf, Palladin and Haste Cleric. I know there will be many others like me who invested massive amounts of time and resources on such toons only to see them rendered pointless as built (the Gwf less so but still). Why would I or anyone else do this again? I doubt many will. Almost feels like bait and switch, here these are cool look what they can do, six months later oops they are OP or not WAI so have a nerf (or three).
Pallies are pointless right now as others have indicated and with all due respect to the Dev (great to see one of you show up on here so KUDOS for that). That is of no help to the numerous Pallies being kicked from dungeons now.
The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.
Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.
As for my vote, I abstain
Thanks for the feedback bbas and I agree with you. The Pally does however need to stand on an equal footing with the GF in terms of attractiveness for groups as I'm sure you understand.
The defensive capability for self survival is great but because it can't hold threat properly it cannot help lower geared players & because it's group buffs are inferior to that of the GF it isn't attractive to higher end groups either.
This leaves it in a no-mans land of being neither one thing or another. As I've suggested on a previous post I believe two dailies that do the same thing but to differing degrees is a little pointless. We should have one group defence daily (Shield of Faith) and one forced aggro/threat daily that compels all enemies within aura range to attack the pally. Having both dailies last for 12 seconds should be sufficient.
Increasing the group buff for Aura of Courage to match similar buffs from the GF should wrap it up nicely and provide a balanced class that would be an asset to a party.
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Everything I'm reading in favor of keeping bubble as is seems to add the desire of making an OP more like a GF. The GF will always be a better GF then an OP, that's why it's a GF. The bubble nerf hit on too many sides, it should have been a shortened duration, or a lessened amount of damage mitigation. Instead we got both. We should fix one or the other.
That's because the GF can be built as either a proper aggro tank or party buffer, that's what a tank class is for.
Providing total damage immunity was a terrible idea in the first place and is a bad premise to build a class on. We have 5 different DPS classes - they all do the same job but with different mechanics & you choose the one that suits your play style - I have no issue with there being 2 tank classes but as where a DPS class deals DPS, a tank class has to deal threat and/or buffs.
The pally does have buffs, they just aren't on the same level as the GF, but swapping that for total damage immunity makes the class popular but turns dungeon runs into nothing but a timer exercise.
They need to be good without doing that. The GF is better now but it's wrong to say they will always be better. At one point the CW was the best DPS class, in mod 5 the GWF was the worst. What we need is a situation where both classes are equally popular.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.
Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.
The/your ring of ambush/invisibility also "trivializes" content also making it pointless .. any plans on making it in line with other cool downs/ inactive while in combat etc ? when you attack from stealth with the ring it should make you visible and " in combat"
What dungeon master would let his party go thru the whole dungeon invisible and "trivialize" all the planing programing and hard work ? this is also not creating a "positive" experience
why cant the monster hear you or smell you lol ?
P.S at least the ring of natural order was removed as a broken coding nightmare with class abilities ..
I voted raise the time because other people I trust have that opinion.
Right now it seems the GF (in terms of pre 3k GS) is better tanking then the OP but that is based on a small sample size at this point. The examples I have seen have better geared OP and only partially geared GF at this time.
Maybe people will figure things out and it will settle down but you would think anything to be figured out would have already been done in the PC which has been at this for some time.
The permabubble of the past trivialized all content and rendered every boss mechanic pointless. It wasn't creating a positive experience for players. We will be looking at OPs again but we want to look at the whole package, not just a single spell.
Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.
As for my vote, I abstain
The more I think about the changes made the more I think the change should have been the stuff that has happened plus other changes maybe along the lines of what armadeonx says.
So rather than just taking stuff away add something back to replace it.
The bubble was a cancer and I'm glad it is gone. The problem is that people want to compare the pally to the GF. That's just silly. The GF is a 'leader/controller' that tanks. The pally is a healer class. You gotta think of it as a different take on a cleric rather than a competing tank type toon.
Thats why you can't generate threat. That.....and it's probably broken. But I wanna see a pally built for damage with 60% armor pen prove this true or false. There is a companion that adds a threat generation buff btw.
The only thing pallys won't do is give up on the bubble. Stop that!!! Come up with new builds. You were given a free respec, use it and utilize some ingenuity. Come up with something no one else has. Think about how you can contribute so that you don't "compete" with the GF or cleric.
Before I hit 70 on my pally the bubble was already a thing. So I just stripped my pally and never touched that toon again. Why? Because I will not build a one trick pony for the benefit of others and not myself.
Still running Oath of Protection on my previously perm-bubble (at ~2580) paladin. At -50 ArmP I hold aggro fairly well (3700+ GWF/SW or other very high dps can still pull away from me, particularly if they unload before I engage.) I run perma-SoF now instead, and with my current setup I heal the entire group (within 30') for 50-200k (depending on crit, at 30% chance with my low i-level) every 12 seconds with a HoT aspect (unintentionally) which lasts about 6 seconds (for another ~50-200k total). I've run PuG CN with only myself as tank/healer (although with a high turn-over rate until we find quality players who won't stand in the red.)
Long story short - the paladin is "pseudo-viable" as is. I stumbled across my set up, and it is "successful" only due to specific use of insignias, boons, sub-optimal (otherwise) arti-powers, flail snail + burning artifact set, previously un-used (by me) feats, "broken" powers, and 80+ power points. If I did not have all these in place prior to the change I could not successfully aid my group as a tank (aka, new paladins are screwed or go devotion, imo.)
All that said - my paladin is nearly invincible, heals well enough to cover that job while tanking, does passing off-dps, and is still second-tier to any fresh T2 GF (which I know for a fact, because my 2500 GF does everything a tank should do, better than my paladin.) All things considered, in CN if all other group members are static and only I flop between my GF and my OP ... my personal survivability is much higher on the OP, but the group finishes the zone significantly faster and safer on the GF.
I still don't want bubble time increased. Bubble should be removed, or reworked completely - not increased. Make paladins able to do their job more effectively, NOT just a GF-clone, or an invincibility button for the group.
The bubble should be removed entirely. It makes people lazy and removes any need for thought or skill. I will not run anything with a bubble. I'd rather wipe 1000 times. It ruined an already broken PVP system. Death to the bubble.
The bubble was a cancer and I'm glad it is gone. The problem is that people want to compare the pally to the GF. That's just silly. The GF is a 'leader/controller' that tanks. The pally is a healer class. You gotta think of it as a different take on a cleric rather than a competing tank type toon.
You are completely wrong there. Clerics have feats that reduce threat whilst the Oath of Protection Paladin receives a x5 threat multiplier and has several At Wills, Encounters and Auras specifically designed to increase threat whilst increasing the Pallys Health and Defence.
That is a tank. It's other skills are based around Control & Damage Reflection.
In other words, the Protection Paladin is also a Leader/controller class.
The Devotion path is for healing and that's why it doesn't have the threat multipliers.
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I concede the point. One path garners the pally control, threat and protection. Thusly making it a full blown tank. But you've gotta admit that it feels like a hybrid. Somewhere in between a cleric and a GF.
It's positioning within teams is weird atm but I'm hoping when they finally fix threat output it'll start to shine for all the right reasons. If it can act as a true threat magnet then people will appreciate it again.
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Comments
Exactly, what people need is less whining and more experimenting to adapt to the new changes, that is, to slighty or completely change their builds and rotations. They also need to experiment with the other classes to learn what ways are effective to complete epic content... the other day I joined a cn run (pug) and the team was at orcus fight. The gwf tried to kick the cw out but the team didn't let him (myself included) to do such a thing, I suggested we gave it a few tries and a few minutes after... Orcus got killed. The cw turned out to be a regenade build that kep ny guardian healed well enough in absence of a cleric/healadin and the gwfs helped by staying behind the boss. By the way, I do not use steel defence, dropped it months ago and I'm glad I did that.
Other things I have done in absence of healers is asking hunter rangers to use fox cunning and it works pretty well.
The only thing I agree you on is that Paladin's threat generation needs some love but that's it. I have a prot Paladin myself, stopped using it because it was brain dead easy and took absolutely no skill, hence why I started a gf almost 6 months ago or so. (built it myself, didn't copy anyone's toon). Sure, my gf isn't the best but is improving and gets the job done, I'm glad because of what I done with it, even got congratulated by people from the top guilds (xb1) after running with them.
Are you seriously complaining about binding oath's changes? That encounter is blatantly overpowered and it's hilariously broken as you can spam it with Justice tree which 99.99% of Paladins are, it makes you almost unkillable in most situations, it does render your shield a mere cosmetic item in most case (I'm looking at you too, crazy op, spammable templar's wrath).
Echoes of light was ridiculous, it needed to get fixed, the chance to recharge powers was really high.
Prot Paladin wasn't destroyed, they still tank like gods and good ones can surive Orcus' dps, is that an issue for you? The way you guys made these posts shows a evident bubble-dependency, it's like you cannot conceive a prot paladin without permabubble/semi-permabubble, it just proves how much damage that daily has done to this community.
You decided to try to flavor of the year bubble, you should have considered that maybe, maybe that extremely overpowered daily would eventually get nerfed, especially because everyone and their brother was running one and you do know that in those cases, is not a matter or if but when, the holy nerfing hammer will hit these broken builds with all its might, then people will move on to the next flavor of the month/mod/year and the cycle starts all over again.
Test new builds to see what you can achieve, you may find something really good, you'll see that if you stop seeing the bubble as the centre of the universe, you'll learn more about your toon.
Devotion path is not the only one viable, you just need to see how protection can work... it has plenty of non-permabubble stuff you can try out.
1. completely remove the bubble altogether
2. add a 100% forced threat daily to replace it - everything in aura range is forced to go for the pally
3. boost Shield of Faith a bit
4. Increase the group buff from Aura of Courage to get on a more even footing with GF's.
That's about all they need.
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Zen De Armadeon: OP
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Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
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Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
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Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Every time they have introduced a new class it has been initially overpowered, then brought somewhat in line. Sometimes takes a few cycles, like with the OP. Xbox hasn't seen all this, but it happened with the HR, SW and OP on PC and it will likely happen when the next new class is added.
Speaking as an Oathbound Paladin who has finally recovered from permabubble withdrawal, I like the choices that the change has forced me to consider. I can opt to pop my daily to mitigate a bad situation for my team or I even feel like I can spend my AP on something other than keeping my bubble up.
As for my vote, I abstain
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It's about having no role in a well rounded party, and about how no matter what you want to do (tank, support, heal, buff) there's another class that straight-up does it better.
Join us brothers and sisters and distant relations and confused onlookers.
Join us in the shadows where we stand mostly vigilant... although slightly distracted by our inventories.
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JOIN US.
The defensive capability for self survival is great but because it can't hold threat properly it cannot help lower geared players & because it's group buffs are inferior to that of the GF it isn't attractive to higher end groups either.
This leaves it in a no-mans land of being neither one thing or another. As I've suggested on a previous post I believe two dailies that do the same thing but to differing degrees is a little pointless. We should have one group defence daily (Shield of Faith) and one forced aggro/threat daily that compels all enemies within aura range to attack the pally. Having both dailies last for 12 seconds should be sufficient.
Increasing the group buff for Aura of Courage to match similar buffs from the GF should wrap it up nicely and provide a balanced class that would be an asset to a party.
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Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Providing total damage immunity was a terrible idea in the first place and is a bad premise to build a class on. We have 5 different DPS classes - they all do the same job but with different mechanics & you choose the one that suits your play style - I have no issue with there being 2 tank classes but as where a DPS class deals DPS, a tank class has to deal threat and/or buffs.
The pally does have buffs, they just aren't on the same level as the GF, but swapping that for total damage immunity makes the class popular but turns dungeon runs into nothing but a timer exercise.
They need to be good without doing that. The GF is better now but it's wrong to say they will always be better. At one point the CW was the best DPS class, in mod 5 the GWF was the worst. What we need is a situation where both classes are equally popular.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
The/your ring of ambush/invisibility also "trivializes" content also making it pointless .. any plans on making it in line with other cool downs/ inactive while in combat etc ? when you attack from stealth with the ring it should make you visible and " in combat"
What dungeon master would let his party go thru the whole dungeon invisible and "trivialize" all the planing programing and hard work ?
this is also not creating a "positive" experience
why cant the monster hear you or smell you lol ?
P.S at least the ring of natural order was removed as a broken coding nightmare with class abilities ..
Right now it seems the GF (in terms of pre 3k GS) is better tanking then the OP but that is based on a small sample size at this point. The examples I have seen have better geared OP and only partially geared GF at this time.
Maybe people will figure things out and it will settle down but you would think anything to be figured out would have already been done in the PC which has been at this for some time.
So rather than just taking stuff away add something back to replace it.
Thats why you can't generate threat. That.....and it's probably broken. But I wanna see a pally built for damage with 60% armor pen prove this true or false. There is a companion that adds a threat generation buff btw.
The only thing pallys won't do is give up on the bubble. Stop that!!! Come up with new builds. You were given a free respec, use it and utilize some ingenuity. Come up with something no one else has. Think about how you can contribute so that you don't "compete" with the GF or cleric.
Before I hit 70 on my pally the bubble was already a thing. So I just stripped my pally and never touched that toon again. Why? Because I will not build a one trick pony for the benefit of others and not myself.
Still running Oath of Protection on my previously perm-bubble (at ~2580) paladin. At -50 ArmP I hold aggro fairly well (3700+ GWF/SW or other very high dps can still pull away from me, particularly if they unload before I engage.) I run perma-SoF now instead, and with my current setup I heal the entire group (within 30') for 50-200k (depending on crit, at 30% chance with my low i-level) every 12 seconds with a HoT aspect (unintentionally) which lasts about 6 seconds (for another ~50-200k total). I've run PuG CN with only myself as tank/healer (although with a high turn-over rate until we find quality players who won't stand in the red.)
Long story short - the paladin is "pseudo-viable" as is. I stumbled across my set up, and it is "successful" only due to specific use of insignias, boons, sub-optimal (otherwise) arti-powers, flail snail + burning artifact set, previously un-used (by me) feats, "broken" powers, and 80+ power points. If I did not have all these in place prior to the change I could not successfully aid my group as a tank (aka, new paladins are screwed or go devotion, imo.)
All that said - my paladin is nearly invincible, heals well enough to cover that job while tanking, does passing off-dps, and is still second-tier to any fresh T2 GF (which I know for a fact, because my 2500 GF does everything a tank should do, better than my paladin.) All things considered, in CN if all other group members are static and only I flop between my GF and my OP ... my personal survivability is much higher on the OP, but the group finishes the zone significantly faster and safer on the GF.
I still don't want bubble time increased. Bubble should be removed, or reworked completely - not increased. Make paladins able to do their job more effectively, NOT just a GF-clone, or an invincibility button for the group.
That is a tank. It's other skills are based around Control & Damage Reflection.
In other words, the Protection Paladin is also a Leader/controller class.
The Devotion path is for healing and that's why it doesn't have the threat multipliers.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox