My understanding is that you're allowed a maximum of two, but basically, if you ever transfer millions of AD from one account to another, expect to get banned.
Okay, that's reassuring.
If you want robofarming, go play farmville or something.
IMHO, it should work like: people do stuff, they get AD. AD earned = effort spent x time taken. "Low Effort" things, like professions, should not reward AD, but instead whatever one of a zillion currencies they pick that can then be used for whatever NPC thing they correspond to. There should be no AD cap. If people want to play and earn AD all day, then fine. How can we have an effort-based economy that puts a hard cap on effort returns?
This economy is much closer to communism than free market or barter. With bartering there's no currency at all aside from goods produced (hence where salary came from). Since not all goods are created by players, there must be a universal currency. The government (cryptic), for example, determines all storefront prices, which affects AH prices. They are controlling the money supply by capping max income for the rich and effectively lowering minimum wage for the poor. Neverwinter is a heavily regulated commune. In essence, after this economic lag catches up, we will experience trickle-down poverty because no one will have significant quantities of AD anymore.
3.5k HB Temptation -- Dread Legion Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok My Guide
If you want robofarming, go play farmville or something.
Why do you assume you can tell everyone else what they should want to do in a game?
'Farming' is - or can be - a perfectly valid playstyle that you'll find to be surprisingly popular. Otherwise games like Farmville wouldn't fly and pretty much all other MMOs wouldn't be adding building/harvesting/collecting minigames to their content. As a previous poster has pointed out, there's been some good recent studies done on the rewards people get from videogames. Crafting or harvesting an item actually works very similarly to killing a mob in terms of how the human brain reacts to it. Why have you decided doing these things is somehow 'invalid', whereas swinging your sword through a gazillion orcs is somehow 'work' that deserves reward?
However, it appears that the Decree has gone out: You Must Run Dungeons. There Is No Other Playstyle.
Well meh. I'd rather roll in a field of manure than play Advanced Simon Says with 4 judgemental strangers every day, for a reward I probably won't do anything with anyway. I was on the edge of quitting the game anyway, this will probably push me out of the door for good.
My opinion is this, they should have reduced the number of characters that could run leadership on an account to say like say like 4. Just leave in the regular chores. set them to 24 hours, and take out the extra ones that changed every hour. That way, you could still make a set amount of rad doing leadership to supplement what you get by doing everything else. The little guy would still make a few AD that way to help off set the massive amount of AD needed in the game. And at least there would be a glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel. As is, without spending THOUSANDS, you won't get anywhere. Some people might have it, but most don't and wouldn't even if they did.
If you want robofarming, go play farmville or something.
Why do you assume you can tell everyone else what they should want to do in a game?
'Farming' is - or can be - a perfectly valid playstyle that you'll find to be surprisingly popular. Otherwise games like Farmville wouldn't fly and pretty much all other MMOs wouldn't be adding building/harvesting/collecting minigames to their content. As a previous poster has pointed out, there's been some good recent studies done on the rewards people get from videogames. Crafting or harvesting an item actually works very similarly to killing a mob in terms of how the human brain reacts to it. Why have you decided doing these things is somehow 'invalid', whereas swinging your sword through a gazillion orcs is somehow 'work' that deserves reward?
However, it appears that the Decree has gone out: You Must Run Dungeons. There Is No Other Playstyle.
Well meh. I'd rather roll in a field of manure than play Advanced Simon Says with 4 judgemental strangers every day, for a reward I probably won't do anything with anyway. I was on the edge of quitting the game anyway, this will probably push me out of the door for good.
I apparently cannot repeat this enough for it to sink in; it's an RPG. Roleplaying should be the focus, and, thus, the most rewarding part; not managing unseen little gremlins. I find it baffling that this point is apparently too fine and too subtle for too many people to comprehend; it seems quite salient to me. Maybe that's a "toxic" comment, but I'm tired of repeating the point.
And I did ask that we not debate the leadership nerf here, as it's being pounded in the main AD changes thread. Sadly, many have seen fit to ignore this, and the forum structure does not provide me the power to delete comments - even my own, curiously.
If you want robofarming, go play farmville or something.
IMO you're missing the main point. They don't want you to get ADs at all. ADs are a way to enhance fast your toon without spending $$$.
They are forcing you to spend real $$ on this game and if you don't, you have to grind ADs for years.
You will not get any improvement.
It's not difficult to understand...all the decisions taken in the last 6 months go in this direction.
Petitions, complains and forum posts will not change anything.
You have just 1 chance: hit them where it hurts....keep on playing without spending any $. If all players do it, things may change at the next PWE financial report. But i don't think it will happen...
Or may be yes: a lot of players are quitting. Yesterday evening in Europe it was a desert: enclave empty and just 3 lfg to run dgn. Solo players are gone...
This statement is 100% correct. They even STATED that either you play for hrs and hrs and hrs and hrs, OR you spend real money to get AD. The unemployed and retired players can still get some good AD (they can play all day) but the rest of us who work... your toon will be at what ever IL you are currently at for a VERY VERY VERY long time (unless you spend real money)
I have 8 toons and I love to play them all. In Mods 3, 4 and 5, I spent money on them because I LOVED this game and the return on my investment was SOOO worth it. Now... I struggle to even play one due to having to spend so much time just grinding for the few AD's I can get. I can now delete most of them as they serve no purpose anymore. Yes, they did Leadership for AD BUT... I could play them for a bit, make some AD and off the the others.
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callofkutuluMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 56Arc User
I apparently cannot repeat this enough for it to sink in; it's an RPG. Roleplaying should be the focus, and, thus, the most rewarding part; not managing unseen little gremlins. I find it baffling that this point is apparently too fine and too subtle for too many people to comprehend; it seems quite salient to me. Maybe that's a "toxic" comment, but I'm tired of repeating the point.
Just because you repeat it doesn't make it true. You are not the arbiter of what "role" we should be playing in this RPG nor what should and should not be most rewarding. That is the point, people should be able to play the game within the rules of the world as best suits them.
Just because you repeat it doesn't make it true. You are not the arbiter of what "role" we should be playing in this RPG nor what should and should not be most rewarding. That is the point, people should be able to play the game within the rules of the world as best suits them.
If you really feel popping open a little window, pressing a few buttons and moving on is playing a role, frankly your aspirations are quite dull. I'm sorry.
In any case, the reward ought to be linked to the expenditure of effort required to earn it. That's how real life works. That's how a healthy economy works. This isn't just me being some grumpy old crumudgin. It's simple, logical, reasonable, and fair. One cannot endeavor to change the fundamental laws of how reality functions because "it works for them." Consequences are inevitable, and the developers decided that the consequences of that system were too great and too detrimental overall.
I realize they felt other systems were as well, and most would feel that that is not the case, and it would seem that for me to say we should argue for one and not the other may seem inconsistent, but I say again, the leadership question is getting more than plenty of airtime on the official AD changes thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss other concerns which some of us may feel are being drowned out.
If you want robofarming, go play farmville or something.
ARE WE PERFECTLY CLEAR?
Rage against the zeitgeist.
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
The concept of the ZAX, for instance, is hiring other players to run dungeons/skirmishes for you.
There should have been an account wide rAD cap that just lets people earn the AD anyway they choose up to the cap. The account wide cap should be meaningful as well 24k AD / day is a joke, it should be 100k /day / account.
Actually: account wide rAD cap + bot hunting by designated Game Masters was possibly one of the earliest ideas proposed. Thing's which are for sure:
-Economy would be much more stable and no one would feel left out. No matter what playstyle they prefer. -Many more bots would get wiped and have much much harder time to earn anything
Also 100k rAD day seems reasonable max count I must say.
I think such decision would surely make almost everyone (besides botters) happy and no one would be seriously bitter about it. After all even making 100k on LS due to server pacing would mean about 80min on 2 logins daily.
On the roll I would surely also improve active play rewards which... most of us agree are way too low. Also the slight price reduction would be needed on fixed price items. Only small since cap is reasonable and idea practically eliminates botting with enough man-power put into it.
Sadly this idea haves but a one big flaw: there is no big push for players to buy currency with real money. Least that's how it seems. A Player would (correctly) argue since if game is sane, is fun, then even if no money is needed to play: they still would pay some to: let's say 'have a fancy hat'. Yet Management seemed to omit such conclusion.
"You stand as inspiration. You are practically the Avatar of Buttkicking." -Quote towards Minsc "I choose You Jymaru!" ~for there are times when more than words need to do the talk
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
In any case, the reward ought to be linked to the expenditure of effort required to earn it. That's how real life works. That's how a healthy economy works. This isn't just me being some grumpy old crumudgin. It's simple, logical, reasonable, and fair. One cannot endeavor to change the fundamental laws of how reality functions because "it works for them." Consequences are inevitable, and the developers decided that the consequences of that system were too great and too detrimental overall.
Hahahaha, well @sylkrode. As much as I like you and as much as I did agree with You on many posts, here I must say You're bit delusional
Allow me to explain:
Good thing or not: most of worlds economy actually works now pretty much like leadership did. If you put enough effort, investment over the time you might create a 'business' (it's bit loose word here but let's go with it). With enough assets, skills, knowledge and luck you improve and expand it. With time business generate more and more income (if successful) and your role in management actually requires less and effort as you're centralized part of company. With time you'll be till able to increase the income with some effort but as long as you don't make a BIG mistake in decision making you can actually practically do nothing and earn much more than your line workers (who work their a- off).
Basically the principles of modern economy state that the higher your rank is, the less you actually need to do and the more you earn.
Whether it's fair or not capitalistic: world works this way. This way a 'grand family fortunes', 'world wide corporations' and alike things are born.
"You stand as inspiration. You are practically the Avatar of Buttkicking." -Quote towards Minsc "I choose You Jymaru!" ~for there are times when more than words need to do the talk
Hahahaha, well @sylkrode. As much as I like you and as much as I did agree with You on many posts, here I must say You're bit delusional
Allow me to explain:
Good thing or not: most of worlds economy actually works now pretty much like leadership did. If you put enough effort, investment over the time you might create a 'business' (it's bit loose word here but let's go with it). With enough assets, skills, knowledge and luck you improve and expand it. With time business generate more and more income (if successful) and your role in management actually requires less and effort as you're centralized part of company. With time you'll be till able to increase the income with some effort but as long as you don't make a BIG mistake in decision making you can actually practically do nothing and earn much more than your line workers (who work their a- off).
Basically the principles of modern economy state that the higher your rank is, the less you actually need to do and the more you earn.
Whether it's fair or not capitalistic: world works this way. This way a 'grand family fortunes', 'world wide corporations' and alike things are born.
I stand corrected. It is perhaps more complicated than I have in places suggested, but as the french I keep quoting goes, c'est la vie.
However, my points on this being a roleplaying game and, more importantly, that this is not the place for such discussion stands. I might start reporting comments.
If you want robofarming, go play farmville or something.
I stand corrected. It is perhaps more complicated than I have in places suggested, but as the french I keep quoting goes, c'est la vie.
However, my points on this being a roleplaying game and, more importantly, that this is not the place for such discussion stands. I might start reporting comments.
It's been a long day and no need to feel edgy
I agree it's not place for to much 'irl' discussion and surely not wanna say 'the way world works is right' just got bit derailed by false statement you made. Especially since almost all what You said so far seemed about 95% correct. We surely should avoid "it's how real life is" statements. They're not anything constructive for 'in game' world.
"You stand as inspiration. You are practically the Avatar of Buttkicking." -Quote towards Minsc "I choose You Jymaru!" ~for there are times when more than words need to do the talk
I think it would be helpful if we all post our OLD NW Gameplay vs NEW Gameplay here. That way the Devs can see what the new player experience is, and hopefully react accordingly.
Old routine (Immediately after reset of quests and invoke).
Minute 1-15 : Invoke + tyranny of dragons campaign outside of Well of dragons Minute 15-45: Invoke -> Acquire SH Quests ->Dead Ring Campaign (Complete) -> Sharandar (Complete) Minute 45-90: Invoke ->Icewindale -> Well of Dragons. Minute 90-150: Invoke -> SH Quests -> Usually by this time I either do 1 epic dungeon or 3x Kessels/SoT Minute 150 : Invoke - Rest After 8 hours ( I will no longer detail the minutes) 1.)Invoke 2.)Chat with guildies, help with their SH Quests. 3.)Elemental Evil Quests 4.)Either Kessels/SoT or Epic Dungeons Depending on which I have not finished from my dailies. 5.)PVP (this is not fixed since I usually end up helping someone in game) 6.)Check AH for cheap items for reselling. The above mentioned takes me about 3 hours. All in all my old routine took me 5 hours and 30 minutes to complete.
New routine
Minute 1-15: Invoke -> Tyranny of dragons outside WoD Minute 15-45: Invoke -> Dead ring (Dungeon only) -> Sharandar (3rd area only) Minute 45-90: Invoke -> Temple of Spider normal x 2 runs with 2 alts. Minute 90-150: Invoke -> Temple of Spider normal x 2 runs with Main + alt. Minute 150: Rest. After 8 hours 1.)Invoke 2.) 3 Tier 1 or 2 dungeon delv with Main. 4.) 3-4 Epic Skirmish runs with Main. 5.) Temple of Spider normal x 2 runs with my other 6 alts. Above mentions takes 5 hours to finish. Total new routine takes me 7 hours and 30 minutes to finish.
Result is that new routine is to run Temple of spider 20 times a day. I am no longer doing WoD. I am no longer looking to interact with guildmates (Well most are no longer logging in anyway). Basically NW for me is running ToS 20 times a day just so I can keep my dream of getting rank 9 enchants reachable. I really don't care how the devs Plan on fixing the current situation, all I want back is the time to be social in-game, not have to run one content 20 times (which will take 4 hours BTW) everyday.
I really hope people show the Devs what their new day in Neverwinter is like now, so they know what to fix. I mean we can already assume that they probably don't do the daily grinds we do, but at least if we narrate to them how our daily grind looks like, they might have some idea as to how to address the current issue.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
Again to the OP: it astounds me that you seem to feel able to dictate to people that your preferred playstyle is the only one that deserves any reward in-game. That sort of inflexibility (and arrogance) is sterile and, you'll find, also ultimately self-destructive. There are lots of different types of players, the most succesful games are those who provide a variety of activities so that people can pick and choose what they want to do.
The important thing is this, that the game should follow what the players want to do, not try to dictate to them. It isn't the real world, nor should it try to be. It's a game, the activities should actually be self-rewarding. Once it starts to become 'work' it doesn't matter what in-game rewards are offered, people will just stop playing regardless.
On a side note, dungeoneering isn't roleplay. Don't try and pretend it is or justify your stance with the claim. Join a PuG and the most dialogue you'll get are occasional terse, heavily abbreviated instructions, concluded at the end (if you're lucky) by a 'gg' before the group fragments, or perhaps the obligatory 'LTP NOOB' or similar when things fail. Even 'roleplay runs' that I've done in the past inevitably end up dissolving into game mechanics almost as soon as you start meeting encounters.
Roleplay happens - if it ever does - during the slow game. When people are just hanging out, or if they're just ticking over some activity that doesn't take all that much attention. The type of game that the developers have clearly decided they no longer want to cater to.
For People who think that RPG should only entail actually moving around and killing stuff:
1.) All/most MMO's have an aspect of the game where we invest something and wait for return. In ragnarok online we have vending, crafting, and passive agit quests. In WOW we have our investment dailies. In lingeage we our castle investments. Heck in Neverwinter nights we have our trading caravans. All are ways to acquire currency without having to pick it up off the ground. Heck even in Final Fantasy we had the golden saucer, and Chocobo quests.
2.) It's always positive to have multiple dimensions to a game. Some like to use brawn, other brains. Remember the true core of DnD. You can gain experience and wealth through different things. You may dive dungeons, you can disable traps for experience, you may robs merchants, you may read books and sell scrolls. This is the way DnD is played, this is also the way the best MMORPG's are played. Not everyone is hacking and slashing or Killing other players. Isn't the best game the game where you can play a game through different perspectives?
I understand that Leadership has been corrupted/exploited in Neverwinter, but to say that it is not playing RPG's is WRONG! ROLE PLAYING GAME, you play the game according to the ROLE you desire. It's NOT HACK AND SLASH EXCLUSIVE GAME LIKE DIABLO!
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
Leadership by itself was not the problem. And its getting real annoying to see people being vilified for using it.
I'm sure most people arn't even aware that STO has a similar system in place and it has not killed their economy. It fact, their duty officer system was pretty much the blue print for Neverwinters entire crafting system.
To illustrate, here are some of the pay outs you can get from simply clicking buttons and assigning workers...err, crew members on tasks...err, missions.
Also keep in mind that STOs daily refine cap is only 8000. So for the daily ratio to equal ours, multiply all rewards by 3.
There are, however, two significant differences between STOs system and ours. And adding them to our system would of been a much better option then simply gutting leadership. In STO, there is a measure of risk, you have a chance for a mission to fail, earning you nothing. You can even have a chance for critical failure, that can cost you valuable crew members or assets. This randomness can be mitigated by using high level and skilled crew members. The better the crew assigned the less chance of failure. Players are therefore rewarded for investing in the system and building up the skills and levels of their crew.
The other major difference is missions are far more random, and tied to game areas. So if you cant find a mission you like in the Eta Eridani sector, you can head over to the Pi Canis sector and see another set of missions. This means, in order to find the rare missions you want you might have to patrol around the game a bit. Encouraging a bit active participation and rewarding players willing to put in the extra effort to uncover rarer missions.
Had they offered us something like this, they would not of needed to gut the entire profession. We could of been left with something that still allowed solo players to maintain supplemental income. And would of not been a change that punished those players who invested considerably in the system. There was nothing wrong with leadership as a concept, after all it was born from a crafting system like any other. You click buttons, you make stuff, with stuff you make money. The problem was it had no risk, it was all reward. The system didn't need to be gutted, it just needed a few adjustments.
Again to the OP: it astounds me that you seem to feel able to dictate to people that your preferred playstyle is the only one that deserves any reward in-game. That sort of inflexibility (and arrogance) is sterile and, you'll find, also ultimately self-destructive. There are lots of different types of players, the most succesful games are those who provide a variety of activities so that people can pick and choose what they want to do.
The important thing is this, that the game should follow what the players want to do, not try to dictate to them. It isn't the real world, nor should it try to be. It's a game, the activities should actually be self-rewarding. Once it starts to become 'work' it doesn't matter what in-game rewards are offered, people will just stop playing regardless.
On a side note, dungeoneering isn't roleplay. Don't try and pretend it is or justify your stance with the claim. Join a PuG and the most dialogue you'll get are occasional terse, heavily abbreviated instructions, concluded at the end (if you're lucky) by a 'gg' before the group fragments, or perhaps the obligatory 'LTP NOOB' or similar when things fail. Even 'roleplay runs' that I've done in the past inevitably end up dissolving into game mechanics almost as soon as you start meeting encounters.
Roleplay happens - if it ever does - during the slow game. When people are just hanging out, or if they're just ticking over some activity that doesn't take all that much attention. The type of game that the developers have clearly decided they no longer want to cater to.
You deserve a cookie!
Yep, game was meant to be Internet based Role Playing Game. And as much as it is crazy: it did work perfectly till about Mod 3.
As said Role Play requires a bit of theme, mindset and proper people. It's not a sharp paced run but rather a hanging out with people in social manner. If anyone ever played table top or tried RP forum storytelling: you probably get my idea.
I admit leadership was in no mean Role Play. But with some small time put into it: it gave you "time for a Role Play". I never met anyone whose main income was Leadership and who did not do at least 1 Dungeon and 2 Skirmishes a day. Might be my good luck for people but I without doubt consider all Role Players.
Grind most certainly is no different than leadership in terms of not being Role Play. Speed runs? Exploit runs? (to avoid time loss) all of it is... very disheartening.
I fear that most of us really seek for a true role-play experience. No matter whether we were tenacious enough to deal with LS before or we lacked that twisted and not entirely right in the head drive.
What is indeed mostly currently wrong is Money>>Time unbalance.
"You stand as inspiration. You are practically the Avatar of Buttkicking." -Quote towards Minsc "I choose You Jymaru!" ~for there are times when more than words need to do the talk
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
The fundamental problem with NWO has always been that no one wants to pay cash for the amount of time they can get with that cash, and no one wants to pay time for the amount of cash they can get with that time.
Imagine a downward sloping demand curve, and an upward sloping supply curve, but there's no intersection between them. Well that's an exaggeration, but even so.
And I did ask that we not debate the leadership nerf here, as it's being pounded in the main AD changes thread. Sadly, many have seen fit to ignore this, and the forum structure does not provide me the power to delete comments - even my own, curiously.
Perhaps if you had been more neutral about Leadership in your OP, it could have been muted a little bit. But you chose to make a big deal of your opinion.
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
I really hope people show the Devs what their new day in Neverwinter is like now, so they know what to fix. I mean we can already assume that they probably don't do the daily grinds we do, but at least if we narrate to them how our daily grind looks like, they might have some idea as to how to address the current issue.
I don't think the management team is really concerned, based on the way they rolled all this out. I think they want/need more money--due to quarterlies/directive from PWE/whatever and are simply trying to starve gameplayers into spending money. They notified everybody that AD was going to be scarce right before x2RP weekend to get maximum effect.
Not spending a penny on Zen, whether that means playing and not buying, or simply not playing, are the only ways I see to combat this.
If they had legitimate financial concerns that the playerbase might help with, they could float that out there.
If you're tired of repeating something wrong, it benefits both you and everyone else if you stop doing so.
The focus of this game isn't roleplaying. It's acquisition of stuff and character progression. You can roleplay completely independently of your stuff.
And if I want to roleplay a great leader or a slavedriver or a business manager and get rich that way, that's my concern and not yours.
…Then maybe you shouldn't have mentioned [leadership at all, and just made a thread clearly focused on ways to increase rewards going forward rather than trying to defecate on other players' legitimate concerns while "refocusing." You should just issue an apology for that and close your thread, then start a new one with an emphasis solely on increasing rewards, not talking about badwrongfun.
Perhaps you're right, but the game is at least marketed as an MMORPG, and thus personally leads me to believe that is where the emphasis should be. But, I digress - despite seeking to be a well-spoken gentleman, I am not always able to convey my thoughts in an understandable fashion, which can lead to frustration in all parties involved. While it was certainly not my intent to create another firestorm, it seems my failure to effectively communicate has quickly done so. In seeking to create a discussion of a different focus, I have infused too much of my own opinions - resulting in commentary on the exact topic I had hoped to avoid. Additionally, much of this was supposition, as I had not played since the patch and after realizing the old system of play reward had been removed in favor of a system I was reading was broken. But, since yesterday, I have been playing, and it does not seem quite so bad as the main thread would seem to indicate. I suppose that should teach me never to trust anyone's opinion before I form my own. Obvious, I realize, but I can sometimes be rather skittish of "newness" - part of the reason I held onto STO despite my frustrations for as long as I did. Part of being a gentleman is to admit your mistakes and shortcomings, while striving to overcome them - a quest of a lifetime, though the latter may be.
In any case, some of the much-desired economy adjustments have today been announced, and cooler heads may yet prevail. That being said, I still feel the so-called "per-time rewards" are "particularly unrewarding," but as it is not yet functioning as-promised, I am willing to reserve judgement. This faff might yet blow over, and we'll all settle into the new system. Let's allow the better angels of our nature take hold before we start assaulting the fortress with pitch-forks and torches. Though, it would have been better if they had stuck their fingers in the wind before setting sail for a brave, new world. But, that may be a different story to tell entirely.
If you want robofarming, go play farmville or something.
If you want robofarming, go play farmville or something.
Why do you assume you can tell everyone else what they should want to do in a game?
'Farming' is - or can be - a perfectly valid playstyle that you'll find to be surprisingly popular. Otherwise games like Farmville wouldn't fly and pretty much all other MMOs wouldn't be adding building/harvesting/collecting minigames to their content. As a previous poster has pointed out, there's been some good recent studies done on the rewards people get from videogames. Crafting or harvesting an item actually works very similarly to killing a mob in terms of how the human brain reacts to it. Why have you decided doing these things is somehow 'invalid', whereas swinging your sword through a gazillion orcs is somehow 'work' that deserves reward?
However, it appears that the Decree has gone out: You Must Run Dungeons. There Is No Other Playstyle.
Well meh. I'd rather roll in a field of manure than play Advanced Simon Says with 4 judgemental strangers every day, for a reward I probably won't do anything with anyway. I was on the edge of quitting the game anyway, this will probably push me out of the door for good.
I apparently cannot repeat this enough for it to sink in; it's an RPG. Roleplaying should be the focus, and, thus, the most rewarding part; not managing unseen little gremlins. I find it baffling that this point is apparently too fine and too subtle for too many people to comprehend; it seems quite salient to me. Maybe that's a "toxic" comment, but I'm tired of repeating the point.
And I did ask that we not debate the leadership nerf here, as it's being pounded in the main AD changes thread. Sadly, many have seen fit to ignore this, and the forum structure does not provide me the power to delete comments - even my own, curiously.
1. Return Rhix and Neverember dailies on top on existing AD per dungeon run. 2. Reward AD instantly into the packs of characters after a successful run (much like Seals of Protector/Elements are rewarded) not as multiple mini-drops on the floor! 3. Return DD/Skirmish/Foundry hour with 50% additional AD rewarded if completed during this time 4. Reduce costs of Boons, Mount upgrades, Companion upgrades, Transmutation, Stronghold AD requirements (did I miss anything here?) etc to keep in line with AD supply
1. Return Rhix and Neverember dailies on top on existing AD per dungeon run. 2. Reward AD instantly into the packs of characters after a successful run (much like Seals of Protector/Elements are rewarded) not as multiple mini-drops on the floor! 3. Return DD/Skirmish/Foundry hour with 50% additional AD rewarded if completed during this time 4. Reduce costs of Boons, Mount upgrades, Companion upgrades, Transmutation, Stronghold AD requirements (did I miss anything here?) etc to keep in line with AD supply
Multiple minidrops on floor, TOOLTIP -says it awarded per run, why again solution where writen text and game content are different (false information)?
Comments
Rage against the zeitgeist.
This economy is much closer to communism than free market or barter. With bartering there's no currency at all aside from goods produced (hence where salary came from). Since not all goods are created by players, there must be a universal currency. The government (cryptic), for example, determines all storefront prices, which affects AH prices. They are controlling the money supply by capping max income for the rich and effectively lowering minimum wage for the poor. Neverwinter is a heavily regulated commune. In essence, after this economic lag catches up, we will experience trickle-down poverty because no one will have significant quantities of AD anymore.
Xbox GT -- Mr Shabok
My Guide
'Farming' is - or can be - a perfectly valid playstyle that you'll find to be surprisingly popular. Otherwise games like Farmville wouldn't fly and pretty much all other MMOs wouldn't be adding building/harvesting/collecting minigames to their content. As a previous poster has pointed out, there's been some good recent studies done on the rewards people get from videogames. Crafting or harvesting an item actually works very similarly to killing a mob in terms of how the human brain reacts to it. Why have you decided doing these things is somehow 'invalid', whereas swinging your sword through a gazillion orcs is somehow 'work' that deserves reward?
However, it appears that the Decree has gone out: You Must Run Dungeons. There Is No Other Playstyle.
Well meh. I'd rather roll in a field of manure than play Advanced Simon Says with 4 judgemental strangers every day, for a reward I probably won't do anything with anyway. I was on the edge of quitting the game anyway, this will probably push me out of the door for good.
And I did ask that we not debate the leadership nerf here, as it's being pounded in the main AD changes thread. Sadly, many have seen fit to ignore this, and the forum structure does not provide me the power to delete comments - even my own, curiously.
Rage against the zeitgeist.
I have 8 toons and I love to play them all. In Mods 3, 4 and 5, I spent money on them because I LOVED this game and the return on my investment was SOOO worth it. Now... I struggle to even play one due to having to spend so much time just grinding for the few AD's I can get. I can now delete most of them as they serve no purpose anymore. Yes, they did Leadership for AD BUT... I could play them for a bit, make some AD and off the the others.
In any case, the reward ought to be linked to the expenditure of effort required to earn it. That's how real life works. That's how a healthy economy works. This isn't just me being some grumpy old crumudgin. It's simple, logical, reasonable, and fair. One cannot endeavor to change the fundamental laws of how reality functions because "it works for them." Consequences are inevitable, and the developers decided that the consequences of that system were too great and too detrimental overall.
I realize they felt other systems were as well, and most would feel that that is not the case, and it would seem that for me to say we should argue for one and not the other may seem inconsistent, but I say again, the leadership question is getting more than plenty of airtime on the official AD changes thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss other concerns which some of us may feel are being drowned out.
Rage against the zeitgeist.
-Economy would be much more stable and no one would feel left out. No matter what playstyle they prefer.
-Many more bots would get wiped and have much much harder time to earn anything
Also 100k rAD day seems reasonable max count I must say.
I think such decision would surely make almost everyone (besides botters) happy and no one would be seriously bitter about it. After all even making 100k on LS due to server pacing would mean about 80min on 2 logins daily.
On the roll I would surely also improve active play rewards which... most of us agree are way too low.
Also the slight price reduction would be needed on fixed price items. Only small since cap is reasonable and idea practically eliminates botting with enough man-power put into it.
Sadly this idea haves but a one big flaw: there is no big push for players to buy currency with real money. Least that's how it seems. A Player would (correctly) argue since if game is sane, is fun, then even if no money is needed to play: they still would pay some to: let's say 'have a fancy hat'. Yet Management seemed to omit such conclusion.
WELCOME TO MY ART CORNER!
"I choose You Jymaru!" ~for there are times when more than words need to do the talk
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Allow me to explain:
Good thing or not: most of worlds economy actually works now pretty much like leadership did. If you put enough effort, investment over the time you might create a 'business' (it's bit loose word here but let's go with it). With enough assets, skills, knowledge and luck you improve and expand it. With time business generate more and more income (if successful) and your role in management actually requires less and effort as you're centralized part of company. With time you'll be till able to increase the income with some effort but as long as you don't make a BIG mistake in decision making you can actually practically do nothing and earn much more than your line workers (who work their a- off).
Basically the principles of modern economy state that the higher your rank is, the less you actually need to do and the more you earn.
Whether it's fair or not capitalistic: world works this way. This way a 'grand family fortunes', 'world wide corporations' and alike things are born.
WELCOME TO MY ART CORNER!
"I choose You Jymaru!" ~for there are times when more than words need to do the talk
However, my points on this being a roleplaying game and, more importantly, that this is not the place for such discussion stands. I might start reporting comments.
Rage against the zeitgeist.
I agree it's not place for to much 'irl' discussion and surely not wanna say 'the way world works is right' just got bit derailed by false statement you made. Especially since almost all what You said so far seemed about 95% correct. We surely should avoid "it's how real life is" statements. They're not anything constructive for 'in game' world.
WELCOME TO MY ART CORNER!
"I choose You Jymaru!" ~for there are times when more than words need to do the talk
Old routine (Immediately after reset of quests and invoke).
Minute 1-15 : Invoke + tyranny of dragons campaign outside of Well of dragons
Minute 15-45: Invoke -> Acquire SH Quests ->Dead Ring Campaign (Complete) -> Sharandar (Complete)
Minute 45-90: Invoke ->Icewindale -> Well of Dragons.
Minute 90-150: Invoke -> SH Quests -> Usually by this time I either do 1 epic dungeon or 3x Kessels/SoT
Minute 150 : Invoke - Rest
After 8 hours ( I will no longer detail the minutes)
1.)Invoke
2.)Chat with guildies, help with their SH Quests.
3.)Elemental Evil Quests
4.)Either Kessels/SoT or Epic Dungeons Depending on which I have not finished from my dailies.
5.)PVP (this is not fixed since I usually end up helping someone in game)
6.)Check AH for cheap items for reselling.
The above mentioned takes me about 3 hours.
All in all my old routine took me 5 hours and 30 minutes to complete.
New routine
Minute 1-15: Invoke -> Tyranny of dragons outside WoD
Minute 15-45: Invoke -> Dead ring (Dungeon only) -> Sharandar (3rd area only)
Minute 45-90: Invoke -> Temple of Spider normal x 2 runs with 2 alts.
Minute 90-150: Invoke -> Temple of Spider normal x 2 runs with Main + alt.
Minute 150: Rest.
After 8 hours
1.)Invoke
2.) 3 Tier 1 or 2 dungeon delv with Main.
4.) 3-4 Epic Skirmish runs with Main.
5.) Temple of Spider normal x 2 runs with my other 6 alts.
Above mentions takes 5 hours to finish.
Total new routine takes me 7 hours and 30 minutes to finish.
Result is that new routine is to run Temple of spider 20 times a day. I am no longer doing WoD. I am no longer looking to interact with guildmates (Well most are no longer logging in anyway). Basically NW for me is running ToS 20 times a day just so I can keep my dream of getting rank 9 enchants reachable. I really don't care how the devs Plan on fixing the current situation, all I want back is the time to be social in-game, not have to run one content 20 times (which will take 4 hours BTW) everyday.
I really hope people show the Devs what their new day in Neverwinter is like now, so they know what to fix. I mean we can already assume that they probably don't do the daily grinds we do, but at least if we narrate to them how our daily grind looks like, they might have some idea as to how to address the current issue.
The important thing is this, that the game should follow what the players want to do, not try to dictate to them. It isn't the real world, nor should it try to be. It's a game, the activities should actually be self-rewarding. Once it starts to become 'work' it doesn't matter what in-game rewards are offered, people will just stop playing regardless.
On a side note, dungeoneering isn't roleplay. Don't try and pretend it is or justify your stance with the claim. Join a PuG and the most dialogue you'll get are occasional terse, heavily abbreviated instructions, concluded at the end (if you're lucky) by a 'gg' before the group fragments, or perhaps the obligatory 'LTP NOOB' or similar when things fail. Even 'roleplay runs' that I've done in the past inevitably end up dissolving into game mechanics almost as soon as you start meeting encounters.
Roleplay happens - if it ever does - during the slow game. When people are just hanging out, or if they're just ticking over some activity that doesn't take all that much attention. The type of game that the developers have clearly decided they no longer want to cater to.
1.) All/most MMO's have an aspect of the game where we invest something and wait for return. In ragnarok online we have vending, crafting, and passive agit quests. In WOW we have our investment dailies. In lingeage we our castle investments. Heck in Neverwinter nights we have our trading caravans. All are ways to acquire currency without having to pick it up off the ground. Heck even in Final Fantasy we had the golden saucer, and Chocobo quests.
2.) It's always positive to have multiple dimensions to a game. Some like to use brawn, other brains. Remember the true core of DnD. You can gain experience and wealth through different things. You may dive dungeons, you can disable traps for experience, you may robs merchants, you may read books and sell scrolls. This is the way DnD is played, this is also the way the best MMORPG's are played. Not everyone is hacking and slashing or Killing other players. Isn't the best game the game where you can play a game through different perspectives?
I understand that Leadership has been corrupted/exploited in Neverwinter, but to say that it is not playing RPG's is WRONG! ROLE PLAYING GAME, you play the game according to the ROLE you desire. It's NOT HACK AND SLASH EXCLUSIVE GAME LIKE DIABLO!
I'm sure most people arn't even aware that STO has a similar system in place and it has not killed their economy. It fact, their duty officer system was pretty much the blue print for Neverwinters entire crafting system.
To illustrate, here are some of the pay outs you can get from simply clicking buttons and assigning workers...err, crew members on tasks...err, missions.
Faction FedRomKDF “Turn Over Confiscated Contraband” - 2000 Dilithium Ore
Faction Klingon “Experiment with Feasibility of Assassination Utilizing Telekinesis” - 1000 Dilithium Ore
Faction Klingon “Execute Mutineers” - 750 Dilithium Ore
Faction FedRomKDF “Relocate Colonists” - 500 Dilithium Ore
Faction FedRomKDF “Transport Settlers” - 500 Dilithium Ore
Faction FedRomKDF “Grant Passage To Colonists” - 500 Dilithium Ore icon.png (1500 Dilithium Ore icon. Critical Success)
Faction Klingon “Execute Changeling Spy” - 500 Dilithium Ore
Faction Klingon “Consign Prisoners to Colonial Labor Battalion” - 1000 Dilithium Ore
Faction FedRomKDF “Deliver Prototype Technology to Allies in Gamma Quadrant” - 1000 Dilithium Ore (4000 Dilithium Ore on Critical Success)
Also keep in mind that STOs daily refine cap is only 8000. So for the daily ratio to equal ours, multiply all rewards by 3.
There are, however, two significant differences between STOs system and ours. And adding them to our system would of been a much better option then simply gutting leadership. In STO, there is a measure of risk, you have a chance for a mission to fail, earning you nothing. You can even have a chance for critical failure, that can cost you valuable crew members or assets. This randomness can be mitigated by using high level and skilled crew members. The better the crew assigned the less chance of failure. Players are therefore rewarded for investing in the system and building up the skills and levels of their crew.
The other major difference is missions are far more random, and tied to game areas. So if you cant find a mission you like in the Eta Eridani sector, you can head over to the Pi Canis sector and see another set of missions. This means, in order to find the rare missions you want you might have to patrol around the game a bit. Encouraging a bit active participation and rewarding players willing to put in the extra effort to uncover rarer missions.
Had they offered us something like this, they would not of needed to gut the entire profession. We could of been left with something that still allowed solo players to maintain supplemental income. And would of not been a change that punished those players who invested considerably in the system. There was nothing wrong with leadership as a concept, after all it was born from a crafting system like any other. You click buttons, you make stuff, with stuff you make money. The problem was it had no risk, it was all reward. The system didn't need to be gutted, it just needed a few adjustments.
Yep, game was meant to be Internet based Role Playing Game. And as much as it is crazy: it did work perfectly till about Mod 3.
As said Role Play requires a bit of theme, mindset and proper people. It's not a sharp paced run but rather a hanging out with people in social manner. If anyone ever played table top or tried RP forum storytelling: you probably get my idea.
I admit leadership was in no mean Role Play. But with some small time put into it: it gave you "time for a Role Play". I never met anyone whose main income was Leadership and who did not do at least 1 Dungeon and 2 Skirmishes a day. Might be my good luck for people but I without doubt consider all Role Players.
Grind most certainly is no different than leadership in terms of not being Role Play. Speed runs? Exploit runs? (to avoid time loss) all of it is... very disheartening.
I fear that most of us really seek for a true role-play experience. No matter whether we were tenacious enough to deal with LS before or we lacked that twisted and not entirely right in the head drive.
What is indeed mostly currently wrong is Money>>Time unbalance.
WELCOME TO MY ART CORNER!
"I choose You Jymaru!" ~for there are times when more than words need to do the talk
Imagine a downward sloping demand curve, and an upward sloping supply curve, but there's no intersection between them. Well that's an exaggeration, but even so.
Not spending a penny on Zen, whether that means playing and not buying, or simply not playing, are the only ways I see to combat this.
If they had legitimate financial concerns that the playerbase might help with, they could float that out there.
In any case, some of the much-desired economy adjustments have today been announced, and cooler heads may yet prevail. That being said, I still feel the so-called "per-time rewards" are "particularly unrewarding," but as it is not yet functioning as-promised, I am willing to reserve judgement. This faff might yet blow over, and we'll all settle into the new system. Let's allow the better angels of our nature take hold before we start assaulting the fortress with pitch-forks and torches. Though, it would have been better if they had stuck their fingers in the wind before setting sail for a brave, new world. But, that may be a different story to tell entirely.
Rage against the zeitgeist.
2. Reward AD instantly into the packs of characters after a successful run (much like Seals of Protector/Elements are rewarded) not as multiple mini-drops on the floor!
3. Return DD/Skirmish/Foundry hour with 50% additional AD rewarded if completed during this time
4. Reduce costs of Boons, Mount upgrades, Companion upgrades, Transmutation, Stronghold AD requirements (did I miss anything here?) etc to keep in line with AD supply
oooh, They Fight Against Botts... ???