test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
My P2W button is missing, please fix!
kwsapphire
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 671 Arc User
I see a lot of people on the forums and in other online arenas discussing how Neverwinter is a Pay-To- Win game. However my client must be faulty, because I can't find a P2W button anywhere! I spend plenty of money on NW and would be happy to have a P2W button, but I just don't see it! Devs, please fix!
... In all seriousness, I'm curious how people define P2W. As far as I can tell, most items in the Zen store are BoP, and those that aren't, and can be sold on the AH, sell for less than you would get if you just use the Zen Exchange to convert money to AD.
And even still, having loads of AD doesn't win me the game. I still have to grind dungeons for gear, and for seals to buy more gear. All the gear is BoP, so I can't buy it on the AH. So no amount of AD is going to help me gear up.
The only arguments for P2W that I can even fathom are around Rank 12 Enchantments, and refining up artifacts. In both cases you could (in theory) spend an extraordinary amount of money on these items. Doing the math, that's $620 in Blood Rubies ($310 during 2xRP weekends) to get an Artifact Weapon from Rank 1 to legendary. It's almost $1400 to get an artifact to Transcendent via Blood Rubies. While that's absurd, I don't know that anyone actually does that.
In fact, I could argue that the very existence of all the third party websites that sell stuff (completely against the rules) are an indicator that there is no way to P2W in Neverwinter. If there were a way to do it, people would be doing it, and the market for these third party sites would dry up.
Rather than P2W, I see NW as P4C and P4S: Pay for Convenience and Pay for Shiny. I want a mount that looks cooler than the regular horses? I can buy one. I want a mount that runs faster? I can buy that. I want outfits and dye bottles to make my character look unique? I can buy those too. I want my profession tasks to go faster and end with a better result? I can buy profession packs and hopefully get good assets, though this still doesn't help me "win the game" any better or faster.
The only thing in this game that money appears to "win" is to refine artifacts up faster and get higher ranked Enchantments faster than is otherwise possible. However no amount of money can buy the best gear, and leveling up to 70 still takes a long time (even with an Experience Booster).
And no amount of gear can make up for a bad player. Item Level is not an indicator of character effectiveness. A well-specced player with a lower gear score who knows what they're doing is a far better addition to my team than someone with a high gear score and no idea how to play their character. Yes, it's better to have a well-specced player who knows what they're doing who also has good gear, but the gear is only a small part of the equation.
I spend money on this game, and yet I still have to grind. I'm not complaining! I just don't see the P2W button at all. I wouldn't mind one being added to the game, I'd pay to push that button all day! Unfortunately there just isn't such a button.
... In all seriousness, I'm curious how people define P2W. As far as I can tell, most items in the Zen store are BoP, and those that aren't, and can be sold on the AH, sell for less than you would get if you just use the Zen Exchange to convert money to AD.
And even still, having loads of AD doesn't win me the game. I still have to grind dungeons for gear, and for seals to buy more gear. All the gear is BoP, so I can't buy it on the AH. So no amount of AD is going to help me gear up.
The only arguments for P2W that I can even fathom are around Rank 12 Enchantments, and refining up artifacts. In both cases you could (in theory) spend an extraordinary amount of money on these items. Doing the math, that's $620 in Blood Rubies ($310 during 2xRP weekends) to get an Artifact Weapon from Rank 1 to legendary. It's almost $1400 to get an artifact to Transcendent via Blood Rubies. While that's absurd, I don't know that anyone actually does that.
In fact, I could argue that the very existence of all the third party websites that sell stuff (completely against the rules) are an indicator that there is no way to P2W in Neverwinter. If there were a way to do it, people would be doing it, and the market for these third party sites would dry up.
Rather than P2W, I see NW as P4C and P4S: Pay for Convenience and Pay for Shiny. I want a mount that looks cooler than the regular horses? I can buy one. I want a mount that runs faster? I can buy that. I want outfits and dye bottles to make my character look unique? I can buy those too. I want my profession tasks to go faster and end with a better result? I can buy profession packs and hopefully get good assets, though this still doesn't help me "win the game" any better or faster.
The only thing in this game that money appears to "win" is to refine artifacts up faster and get higher ranked Enchantments faster than is otherwise possible. However no amount of money can buy the best gear, and leveling up to 70 still takes a long time (even with an Experience Booster).
And no amount of gear can make up for a bad player. Item Level is not an indicator of character effectiveness. A well-specced player with a lower gear score who knows what they're doing is a far better addition to my team than someone with a high gear score and no idea how to play their character. Yes, it's better to have a well-specced player who knows what they're doing who also has good gear, but the gear is only a small part of the equation.
I spend money on this game, and yet I still have to grind. I'm not complaining! I just don't see the P2W button at all. I wouldn't mind one being added to the game, I'd pay to push that button all day! Unfortunately there just isn't such a button.
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I met one dude, when I was just starting to play this game, who had millions in Zen. At that time I had no idea what Zen was... since I was just playing.
Then there are players who spend the amounts of money that you are talking about. Some of them can't play their characters very well... but that is rapidly changing.
I will say this much... I was the second person in my guild to hit 70 and it took me about 5 days. A few days before I hit 70 I went back to PE because I was told that a guildie was standing next to someone with Mythic artis, Legendary weapons and Trans Enchants slotted everywhere. This toon already had the Lostmauth set maxed out. I believe that I may max out my Black Ice Shaping around the same time I will get Mythic artis, Legendary weapons and Trans enchants.
But then again, I don't PvP at all. I can't comment on the culture, nor the necessity of max level enchantments there.
They locked gear upgrades behind a ten dollar pay-wall with the coal wards ffs. That's the very definition of pay to win. And just because the wards have a minute chance of dropping through invoking doesn't negate the fact that you will need to buy those wards at some point if you want to get the best artifacts and enchantments. I mean a 1% chance of success? Ridiculous.
The other myth that no matter how good your gear is you need to have skill to win is complete bs. A 4k toon going against a 2k toon will smash him every time even if played by a monkey.
I put a little into this game, but would never "spend plenty of money" on it because I disagree with locking gear and upgrades behind a pay-wall. It's a really low blow and something that seems to be trending in some MMOs. This game would be a lot better if they kept the sales to convenience, fashion, and mounts. Gear should never be sold. It's tacky.
Even though you were being snarky, I believe you already knew it was P2W, and you are just bored with the downtime so you wanted to stir up the pot.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
I've bought maybe 2 Coalescent Wards with direct cash. I've bought a couple with AD. I buy some of them with Tarmalune Trade Bars, because I open a few lockboxes now and then.
I have no idea regarding PvP, however what you say makes sense. I've seen people talking about a better pairing system, matching people up by gear score. That also makes sense to me. But again, I can't comment on PvP in general, as I have no experience.
You are certainly entitled to take that stance, and I thank you for sharing your insight.
In all honestly, I was not trying to stir up a pot. My husband and I both feel this game isn't truly P2W, and would both gladly P2W if it were possible. I was hoping to get an informative and interesting discussion going, and that's indeed what has happened. :]
Exactly how I feel, and I like the phrase "paymound"!
This is false. The game is completely P2W. You can't get a coal ward without spending money. And those wards are an essential part of upgrading your equipment. There is the paywall. A very sturdy one at that. Someone has to buy the wards, and just because those people are willing to trade it for in-game currency doesn't change the fact that it had to be purchased with real money. The trade bars count as real money purchases also because they can't be obtained without paying for a key to open a box.
Just because there is a zen exchange doesn't mean the zen appears out of nowhere. Cryptic certainly isn't putting it there for free. That's such an invalid excuse for the game being "pay-to-grind-less" rather than what it really is, P2W.
But I'm not complaining. Funny how much that word is tossed around because someone has a different opinion than yours just to try to invalidate their view. It's a lame tactic and rather quite childish.
As to the OP, you admit you don't PVP, but that is where the P2W comes into play, and that's what people are talking about when they say it is P2W. I don't care if people want to spend hundreds and thousands on the game to be the most powerful, just keep the macthmaking fair like they do with dungeons and they can pay to smash either other in the face all day long. Putting best in slot toons against people just starting their PVP journey is asinine.
At the end of the day, it is what it is and they will continue to bring out more P2W. They just added an item in zen to build up your stronghold faster and the mod isn't even live yet.
NWO just has the honor of being a game where the marginal productivity of a dollar is very low.
It costs 100,000 AD for a GMOP. You can sell 100 zen (or 1 dollar) for 50000 AD. Ergo, each GMOP costs 2 dollars. So the 5 GMOPs for upgrading an artifact to mythic is 10 bucks, before accounting for refining costs.
But that 10 dollars right there? You can get that instead through just playing the game. 21 days worth of rough AD refining, or of course you can play the AH to get it.
What are you talking about? I did not spend a penny. I have C-ward and I have surplus. I am G2W. I have enough Zen to buy 6 month VIP. I have enough AD to buy another 6 month if I choose to.
Again, I did not spend a penny, no real money.
I have 8 characters as I mentioned in the post above. I could have more as I have 4 unused character slots stayed unused for over half a year.
at the most extreme example, p2w is simply this: progression is locked behind a pay wall. But, if that pay wall has methods in game to get around (a.k.a make the currency by playing the game, and use that instead), it really turns it into what some people would call the "p2c" or Pay to Convenience.
But that's a really grey area. suppose I am a developer, I'll call myself sneaky joe. and sneaky joe decide to take a game that is moderately popular, and stretch out the "grind" to about 100x more then most other games in that category do. It takes Months and Months to progress, whereas in many other MMO's of the same category have similar progression in a few weeks to a month max. then they offer cash shop boosts at outrageous prices that bring your grind down to what most the other MMO's have as average.
Is Sneaky Joe's MMO a p2w? by the strictest term no. But at that point its so far beyond the acceptable realms of what most players would do many would consider it p2w.
Now...is NWO there? depends on your point of view. For people that have spare cash, or those that had used certain processes to obtain huge amounts of AD that aren't available any more, or for those who simply don't care to have those high levels of gear (and subsequently be gated out of certain parts of the game due to lack of GS to compete), they may think it isn't.
For those who want to progress to those tougher tiers of gameplay...without artificial additions to their AD pools, those dreams may be much farther out then most people consider acceptable. And they would consider it p2w, as at that point it's crossed that threshold that most other decent MMO's don't cross.
For me...any time a company puts progression behind a wall of either literally being blocked, or making the games grind far beyond what's acceptable for most UNLESS you spend $$, to me it is p2w, whether it meets the strictest definition or not. But it's a slippery slope that Developers can either choose to be decent about...or stretch the acceptable boundaries of "grey".
EDIT: Now that I think about it more (going to wax philosophical at this point), Really a f2p concept is p2p remarketed. In spite of the fact that no one thinks that companies exist on Air alone, and we all know that companies need to make money to remain afloat...we tend to get defensive when we think they are being extreme or gouging people. But I have found that most MMO's tend to have certain thresholds that they use to motivate players to buy. They have to get money somehow, and most of them have a plan to needle their audience for a few coins here and there. This is outside of a pure p2w of course.
As an example, I play Marvel Heroes, which has an amazing f2p model (and a great design for gear...botting is almost nonexistent in that game solely for that reason...but I digress). However, the one area where they probably push things a bit is acquisition of new heroes. outside the store purchase, new heroes are random drops in the game, and very rare. you can build tokens of a certain type to purchase heroes in the game, but this is a slow go as well, as they are also rare drops, and you need a pretty decent amount to pick the hero of your choice (or pick a random hero for less).
So the threshold in Marvel heroes was variety of heroes to play (although the base heroes you could start with were pretty cool, so there wasn't a strong feeling that you "had to have" purchasable heroes. so they balanced their threshold somewhat equitably. That and bags....bags seem to be the staple for most MMO's to get their cash, but even this varies game to game. compare the cost of an upgrade to storage in Marvel (about 2-3 usd for a stash upgrade of about 40 slots), with even the smaller available bag in the NWO store. big difference. I believe this is the kind of stuff that people are talking about...But, it will eventually boil down to tolerance. what are people willing to tolerate as a threshold level.
back when you could run 50 toons through the leadership grind in the gateway...people probably had a higher tolerance. We'll see what that tolerance level is like with that option closed out, and strongholds (a.k.a. AD sink part deux) on the horizon.
After a while... it would get extremely frustrating to get 'one-hit' when you have a 4.2k iL.
I have been accused of being p2w, which I have a huge laugh at. If I was p2w, my TRs iL would be higher than 2.3k.
And for those who believe that any player with a 4k iL could beat any player with a 2k iL... I will say not true. Yes... it does give you a marked advantage, but that is it. Skill... beats iL every time. If the "monkey" does not know the synergies behind powers, feats and combos... they drop fast. If they do not know HOW to fight a class... they drop fast.
I have to disagree here, since you can buy Coalescent Wards on the AH with AD, and you can get AD without spending money. It takes longer, but it's totally possible to get wards without spending real money. Even if someone is willing to spend real money on the wards and then list them on the AH, others who don't want to spend real money can then make the purchase.
I may be mistaken, but I thought I've seen people complaining about P2W in the PvE game as well. If I'm wrong, I apologize. And I agree that if there's such a huge gulf among PvPers, a better match-making system seems a must.
Thank you for this well-written reply!
I totally agree with your comparison. A game that requires an insanely long time or excessive grinding just to make the game playable, that's just wrong. A couple weeks ago I heard that it takes 900M AD to rank up a Stronghold once. Maybe I was misinformed (I am not on the preview shard), but that does seem far too high. If I am converting correctly, that's $18,000 of AD? That seems ridiculous even for a large guild. But maybe that number was an exaggeration.
Also I'm not sure that it's the Developers who set the thresholds, that might be passed down from PWE. At least, the people generally in charge of creating content for the game are usually not the ones in charge of setting the prices.
My perspective is clearly very heavily biased by the fact that I stick to PvE. I don't care to compete with the top-geared competitors in PvP. Sure, I will work towards Transcendent items where I can, but I don't need to get there "RIGHT NAO" just to stand a chance in competitive play.
I've never bought any ward (green or blue).. ever. Not with AD not with Zen, they come from the invoke boxes for free. Sorry, no paywall there. Next incorrect notion you'd like me to mythbust for you?
The existence of a player economy to trade cash currency for in-game currency doesn't mean P2W. It means if you choose to pay money, you can get AD for it. If you have AD and choose not to pay money, you can get Zen for it. That's grinding, not p2w.
Yes you are. Explaining why you're incorrect is neither lame or childish.
Key phrase here: "build up your stronghold faster" You make my point for me - you don't NEED this to build up your stronghold, but you can get it done faster. paymound, not paywall.
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
While I can certainly see how being able to buy coalescent wards and refining points would qualify as pay to win having paid your way up does not really make up for experience any more. Additionally, you could get lucky (slim chance, I know) and get a ward from Celestial Coins, and you can stubbornly farm drops to refine. It is faster if you pay but if you are the type who would spend their time then you have probably already accepted that people who choose to spend money are going to get their faster.
Yes, I would rather run someone who has high item level and is experienced but when it comes down to picking just one I am going to pick the player who knows their stuff.
Additionally, while I have spent money on this game, it has always been for convenience items like a faster mounts. And the occasional vanity items: fashion, and dyes.
I 100% agree with your points, but let's please keep the discussion respectful. This post could be taken as a bit of an attack because of the language, and this conversation has been so civilized so far. (I still totally agree with the content of what you're saying though.)
I'm sorry the discussion turned that way for you. I am hoping this doesn't become an argument, and instead remains an intelligent discussion on a heated topic. There have been some great points made here, from people of varied opinions!