You know, ill bet you guys complaining are the same people ho never finished epic dread vault. You know, the dungeon thaat actually required skill and player coordination to beat and that being highly geared didn't just let you roflstomp it. Its the end game pve content, it should be hard and it can be done, contrary to some people belief, with a 2k group without a paladin on tank.
Hard doesn't equate to being dead every time you slip up i.e. not dodging in time to avoid a red aoe. But, really the thing about it is being dead when you are fully alert and paying attention. I mean the melee classes that have to get in the enemy face in order to even strike it are suffering the most. I mean come on dude....what are we supposed to do playing as a gwf...run up and smack an ad once then run away from him waiting until he has dispensed his one hit kill attack then rinse and repeat? Just lame. Not to mention your just going to run out of stamina to avoid the aoe plus even doing the above someone else is probably going to get hit by him instead since the agro will shift while the gwf is running away. It's become a lose lose situation.
When I play other mmo's I don't die as much as I do in this one.
Oh and when epic Dread Vault was around...my cw which is the one I play the most...would smash right on thru there even with the worst of pugs. Here comes the mindflayer out of nowhere with the stunning aoe...quick...throw down icy terrain and dodge away. Not that it was that simple it was just more avoidable. The different between then and now has moved away from skillful anticipation of your enemy while using fast reaction speed to just random luck, 4k gear, and divine protector with gift of haste spamming.
If major injury kits were a zen store only item that was BoA....there would be no one left playing the dungeons in this dungeons & dragons game.
You know, ill bet you guys complaining are the same people ho never finished epic dread vault. You know, the dungeon thaat actually required skill and player coordination to beat and that being highly geared didn't just let you roflstomp it. Its the end game pve content, it should be hard and it can be done, contrary to some people belief, with a 2k group without a paladin on tank.
You know, i'll bet you use any bug and exploit available ingame to get through dungeons and skirmishes...
Not really helpfull, and btw. it's about normal/regular attacks, that will just flatline you without a chance. But all of this so easy for you, how about joining a real 2k IL PuG and streaming the whole run.
Or even better, try to get a handfull of Devs to run with you on the recommended IL... should be fun to watch that run.
[Combat (Self)] Enforcer deals 182534 (153829) Physical Damage to you with Sweep.
[Combat (Self)] Cutthroat deals 107558 (70719) Physical Damage to you with Melee Attack.
[Combat (Self)] Cutthroat deals 110573 (72702) Physical Damage to you with Melee Attack.
This one has a red zone, but doesn't it strike anyone as still extreme?
[Combat (Self)] Traven Blackdagger deals 505298 (827399) Fire Damage to you with Fire Bomb.
Oh, thefabricant is totally right. I mean, these are all doable... yknow, if your Devoted Cleric isn't Faithful AC he's just unskilled, and if your Guardian Fighter isn't a protector, he just sucks too. Oh, the Great Weapon Fighter didn't spec detroyer? Don't they know the other 2 paths are just for decoration?
And traven's attack? Just dodge it! I mean.... everyone has a dodge and stamina always available right? I mean... dodging the 70k archer hit doesn't use stamina right? Oh... you don't have a dodge? just block or unstoppable to make sure you have max damage resistance (80%). 20% of 800k damage only leaves 160k damage. you have the HP to withstand that right? I mean... it's not like epic mobs have Armour Penetration at all.... um....
Yeah... sarcasm aside...
Oh... guess what.... thinking that this is all okay and this is good game design is utter trash. Games are meant to be playable. You shouldn't be dead every time because of one mistake. You can't even learn the patterns of everything if one mistake wipes you every time. Other games also let you pick up your teammates indefinitely, health pots which give you more than 10% of your hp with lower cooldowns, or give you more mobility than mobs so you can actually manoeuvre.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
You know, ill bet you guys complaining are the same people ho never finished epic dread vault. You know, the dungeon thaat actually required skill and player coordination to beat and that being highly geared didn't just let you roflstomp it. Its the end game pve content, it should be hard and it can be done, contrary to some people belief, with a 2k group without a paladin on tank.
You know, i'll bet you use any bug and exploit available ingame to get through dungeons and skirmishes...
Not really helpfull, and btw. it's about normal/regular attacks, that will just flatline you without a chance. But all of this so easy for you, how about joining a real 2k IL PuG and streaming the whole run.
Or even better, try to get a handfull of Devs to run with you on the recommended IL... should be fun to watch that run.
You can find me in the Team Fencebane guild, no I do not approve of or use exploits, I report them when I see them and the same is true if I discover them. At the same time, I never said a pug group could finish Ecc, but a premade group definitely can. I have cleared the entire thing, including the last boss, with a group where 3 players had 2k (less then 2.1k) item level, I had 2.3k item level and the tank had 2.4k item level. No exploits were used, at the same though, we all knew what we were doing and co-ordinated well. We may have wiped approximately 8 times, however, it was due to errors on our part and it is possible to do it without wiping at all. If I can arrange it, I will reform the group and see if we can video a legit 2k run for you to make you happy, to prove it can be done. The group composition also had no paladins, hosting 1 TR, 1 DC, 1 HR, 1 CW and 1 GF.
The dungeon is definitely not puggable, but then, should it be? Should there not be some content aimed at players who work well and co-ordinate together, rather then at random players. The easy tier 2 is eToS, it does not require much in terms of player skill, you should be able to complete it with minimal fuss. The intermediate one, eGWD is more challenging and eCC, should be, and is, completely unpuggable. Maybe eGWD should be made slightly easier so that a good random group can do it, but, eCC should remain as is.
As for running with the devs, just because they developed the game doesn't make them the best players in the game. eCC is the only content that exists to challenge players in this game, don't take it away simply because you do not like a challenge.
If you want advice on running the dungeon, you can ask me, if you want class specific advice on how to fill your roll in eCC, I can point you to someone who can help you.
@lilhamlet There are plenty of well developed games where 1 mistake will kill you, if you want a quick example, path of exile, an online arpg where people play hardcore (as in, if you die once, your char is gone) where there are plenty of 1 shot mechanics and guess what, making 1 mistake will kill you. In a good group, you don't look at the problem of those 70k hits as an individual, if you do, you will wipe, you look at them from the perspective of a group. The tank runs things like KV to reduce damage, the DC uses astral shield, the HR uses fox, all of these mechanics help to deal with the damage.
As for dps, well, if instead of everyone building more personal dps build if you work together and focus on debuffs, say the tank uses ITF, the dc uses DG and wears HP(this set is still amazing and if you play properly, you don't get hit), the CW plays MoF and uses PF (IKR, wow, you can actually play something other then SS) and the TR uses wicked reminder stuff will burn. The period of time the HR and the CW can control adds for will be enough time for the dps to kill all the adds, because after heavy debuffs, the monsters will melt like butter. Righteous dc instead of faithful might in fact be better for a strong party in eCC, although I cannot confirm as I haven't tested with a righteous in a 2k party.
As for only 1 viable way to play each class, well I can't really fault you there, but that is true in most games. look at other MMO's or ARPG's, normally, there is 1 ideal way to play a class and others are inferior. You can either accept that, play the most ideal build for a particular class and clear content, or play an inferior build, then whine and complain that the content is too hard, when you didn't build your character in a way that can effectively deal with the content. Also, when I say build a character, I am referring not to the gear, but to the feats, boons and stat allocations as well as choice of powers, gear on your character doesn't need to be amazing so long as whatever gear you wearing has its stats distributed properly per how many stats you have to allocate.
The dungeon is definitely not puggable, but then, should it be? Should there not be some content aimed at players who work well and co-ordinate together, rather then at random players?
You can clearly see in that log that Syndrith wasn't debuffed.
Every class in the game have at least 1 encounter/daily/at-will that will reduce the damage of the enemies (either AoE or single target) which is the biggest issue in the dungeons but everyone loves to be damage dealer. Have you guys seen the damage reduction done by Courage Breaker with 4 ranks? but the TRs don't use it, they prefer to use Skilless Execution (CB works great btw, tested several times). CWs can use Ray of Enfeeblement but most of them are using Disintegrate. GWFs using Crescendo or Spinning Strike instead of Slam and others not even using Daring Shout which boost a lot the DR. Commanding Shot - HRs... So many DCs running around using only shield and they don't even know what BTS means. Dead players can't deal damage, so focus first in debuffing your opponents.
The damage done by the enemies would be insane only if even debuffed, they are still able to one hit kill players.
The debuffs aren't affected by the gear, in case someone decides to say anything about i.lvl.
?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!?? GWFs not using daring shout?!, im playing NW what game are you playing?
@lilhamlet There are plenty of well developed games where 1 mistake will kill you, if you want a quick example, path of exile, an online arpg where people play hardcore (as in, if you die once, your char is gone) where there are plenty of 1 shot mechanics and guess what, making 1 mistake will kill you. In a good group, you don't look at the problem of those 70k hits as an individual, if you do, you will wipe, you look at them from the perspective of a group. The tank runs things like KV to reduce damage, the DC uses astral shield, the HR uses fox, all of these mechanics help to deal with the damage.
PoE is more akin to a bullethell game and in the entire design of the game it was meant to be Dark Souls hard. There are no required classes, because they all have pretty balanced Damage/Mitigation/Utility depending on how you build on the map. It's not a congruent comparison.
As for Astral Shield, it doesn't have a 100% uptime. The limitation of how many powers one can slot seems to have been completely forgotten in the design of these dungeons. A DC always has Astral Shield, Bastion of Health, and a 3rd encounter (often Divine Glow, but sometimes Break the Spirit due to damage reduction and the empowered buff, or alternately, some AC power (don't know them, not my thing). HR's should run fox, but that class (not really mained as much anymore) class isn't (and shouldn't be) a requirement of a dungeon.
As for dps, well, if instead of everyone building more personal dps build if you work together and focus on debuffs, say the tank uses ITF, the dc uses DG and wears HP(this set is still amazing and if you play properly, you don't get hit), the CW plays MoF and uses PF (IKR, wow, you can actually play something other then SS) and the TR uses wicked reminder stuff will burn. The period of time the HR and the CW can control adds for will be enough time for the dps to kill all the adds, because after heavy debuffs, the monsters will melt like butter. Righteous dc instead of faithful might in fact be better for a strong party in eCC, although I cannot confirm as I haven't tested with a righteous in a 2k party.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your contention about the perfect loadout of a party to beat it, advising people, but even what you're stating here is not entirely a legit run based on the gear. Part of the reasoning behind the mod 6 stat scaling and the removal of the sets like High Prophet, was the idea that their set bonuses were too strong. It's why mod 6 was introduced without set bonuses and those legacy items are no longer available. The HP set improves dps of the entire party by more, with a perfect uptime, than any current power set can do. A legit run would be using items that are available in the current game. The available items in the current game should be all that is required to complete the current content.
Just because the high prophet and high vizier sets are grandfathered in that they weren't deleted from people's inventories, does not make using them an example of the content being balanced. It's like playing a Magic: The Gathering deck using banned, or 4 of the same restricted card and then patting yourself on the back for how amazing you did. These things are removed for a reason, and if they become one of the few reasonable ways to fight the boss battles, then the design is trash and imbalanced. When Guardian Fighters are dying to a single hit with their block up and standing in an Astral Shield, the game is horribly broken.
Frankly, any player saying they beat T2 dungeons fairly with 2k iLevel ranges are being disingenuous when using sets like High Prophet or other legacy sets. High Prophet is a level 60 Tier 1 armour so the iLevel for each piece may be 72. No amount of armour penetration and critical chance is going to match the bonus of "When striking a foe you shred 10% of their armor. This effect stacks up to 3 times. Lasts 4 seconds" which is a 30% damage bonus for ALL players to the effected mob. So the use of these sets is actually artificially deflating the iLevel of those players who are probably using Greater/Rank 9 enchantments (minimum) and Legendary artifacts to make up that difference, hitting 2400 iLevel.
Players doing this and posting that they completed things legitimately should be explaining that this is the gear they were using, rather than misleading players, and the developers, into thinking that all is well with the design.
A true 2-2.4k iLevel in the current game would be Blue Alliance sets, rank 7 enchantments, Blue/Purple artifact items and artifacts.
P.S. as to PoE deaths, my first ever was getting my Ethereal Knives build into the 3rd tier of difficulty and running into a large group of damage reflecting mobs. One button press, instadeath... oh man that hurt...
Comments
Hard doesn't equate to being dead every time you slip up i.e. not dodging in time to avoid a red aoe. But, really the thing about it is being dead when you are fully alert and paying attention. I mean the melee classes that have to get in the enemy face in order to even strike it are suffering the most. I mean come on dude....what are we supposed to do playing as a gwf...run up and smack an ad once then run away from him waiting until he has dispensed his one hit kill attack then rinse and repeat? Just lame. Not to mention your just going to run out of stamina to avoid the aoe plus even doing the above someone else is probably going to get hit by him instead since the agro will shift while the gwf is running away. It's become a lose lose situation.
When I play other mmo's I don't die as much as I do in this one.
Oh and when epic Dread Vault was around...my cw which is the one I play the most...would smash right on thru there even with the worst of pugs. Here comes the mindflayer out of nowhere with the stunning aoe...quick...throw down icy terrain and dodge away. Not that it was that simple it was just more avoidable. The different between then and now has moved away from skillful anticipation of your enemy while using fast reaction speed to just random luck, 4k gear, and divine protector with gift of haste spamming.
If major injury kits were a zen store only item that was BoA....there would be no one left playing the dungeons in this dungeons & dragons game.
Not really helpfull, and btw. it's about normal/regular attacks, that will just flatline you without a chance. But all of this so easy for you, how about joining a real 2k IL PuG and streaming the whole run.
Or even better, try to get a handfull of Devs to run with you on the recommended IL... should be fun to watch that run.
Oh, thefabricant is totally right. I mean, these are all doable... yknow, if your Devoted Cleric isn't Faithful AC he's just unskilled, and if your Guardian Fighter isn't a protector, he just sucks too. Oh, the Great Weapon Fighter didn't spec detroyer? Don't they know the other 2 paths are just for decoration?
And traven's attack? Just dodge it! I mean.... everyone has a dodge and stamina always available right? I mean... dodging the 70k archer hit doesn't use stamina right? Oh... you don't have a dodge? just block or unstoppable to make sure you have max damage resistance (80%). 20% of 800k damage only leaves 160k damage. you have the HP to withstand that right? I mean... it's not like epic mobs have Armour Penetration at all.... um....
Yeah... sarcasm aside...
Oh... guess what.... thinking that this is all okay and this is good game design is utter trash. Games are meant to be playable. You shouldn't be dead every time because of one mistake. You can't even learn the patterns of everything if one mistake wipes you every time. Other games also let you pick up your teammates indefinitely, health pots which give you more than 10% of your hp with lower cooldowns, or give you more mobility than mobs so you can actually manoeuvre.
You can find me in the Team Fencebane guild, no I do not approve of or use exploits, I report them when I see them and the same is true if I discover them. At the same time, I never said a pug group could finish Ecc, but a premade group definitely can. I have cleared the entire thing, including the last boss, with a group where 3 players had 2k (less then 2.1k) item level, I had 2.3k item level and the tank had 2.4k item level. No exploits were used, at the same though, we all knew what we were doing and co-ordinated well. We may have wiped approximately 8 times, however, it was due to errors on our part and it is possible to do it without wiping at all. If I can arrange it, I will reform the group and see if we can video a legit 2k run for you to make you happy, to prove it can be done. The group composition also had no paladins, hosting 1 TR, 1 DC, 1 HR, 1 CW and 1 GF.
The dungeon is definitely not puggable, but then, should it be? Should there not be some content aimed at players who work well and co-ordinate together, rather then at random players. The easy tier 2 is eToS, it does not require much in terms of player skill, you should be able to complete it with minimal fuss. The intermediate one, eGWD is more challenging and eCC, should be, and is, completely unpuggable. Maybe eGWD should be made slightly easier so that a good random group can do it, but, eCC should remain as is.
As for running with the devs, just because they developed the game doesn't make them the best players in the game. eCC is the only content that exists to challenge players in this game, don't take it away simply because you do not like a challenge.
If you want advice on running the dungeon, you can ask me, if you want class specific advice on how to fill your roll in eCC, I can point you to someone who can help you.
@lilhamlet There are plenty of well developed games where 1 mistake will kill you, if you want a quick example, path of exile, an online arpg where people play hardcore (as in, if you die once, your char is gone) where there are plenty of 1 shot mechanics and guess what, making 1 mistake will kill you. In a good group, you don't look at the problem of those 70k hits as an individual, if you do, you will wipe, you look at them from the perspective of a group. The tank runs things like KV to reduce damage, the DC uses astral shield, the HR uses fox, all of these mechanics help to deal with the damage.
As for dps, well, if instead of everyone building more personal dps build if you work together and focus on debuffs, say the tank uses ITF, the dc uses DG and wears HP(this set is still amazing and if you play properly, you don't get hit), the CW plays MoF and uses PF (IKR, wow, you can actually play something other then SS) and the TR uses wicked reminder stuff will burn. The period of time the HR and the CW can control adds for will be enough time for the dps to kill all the adds, because after heavy debuffs, the monsters will melt like butter. Righteous dc instead of faithful might in fact be better for a strong party in eCC, although I cannot confirm as I haven't tested with a righteous in a 2k party.
As for only 1 viable way to play each class, well I can't really fault you there, but that is true in most games. look at other MMO's or ARPG's, normally, there is 1 ideal way to play a class and others are inferior. You can either accept that, play the most ideal build for a particular class and clear content, or play an inferior build, then whine and complain that the content is too hard, when you didn't build your character in a way that can effectively deal with the content. Also, when I say build a character, I am referring not to the gear, but to the feats, boons and stat allocations as well as choice of powers, gear on your character doesn't need to be amazing so long as whatever gear you wearing has its stats distributed properly per how many stats you have to allocate.
Yes there should be - it was called Castle Never
?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!?? GWFs not using daring shout?!, im playing NW what game are you playing?
PoE is more akin to a bullethell game and in the entire design of the game it was meant to be Dark Souls hard. There are no required classes, because they all have pretty balanced Damage/Mitigation/Utility depending on how you build on the map. It's not a congruent comparison.
As for Astral Shield, it doesn't have a 100% uptime. The limitation of how many powers one can slot seems to have been completely forgotten in the design of these dungeons. A DC always has Astral Shield, Bastion of Health, and a 3rd encounter (often Divine Glow, but sometimes Break the Spirit due to damage reduction and the empowered buff, or alternately, some AC power (don't know them, not my thing). HR's should run fox, but that class (not really mained as much anymore) class isn't (and shouldn't be) a requirement of a dungeon.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your contention about the perfect loadout of a party to beat it, advising people, but even what you're stating here is not entirely a legit run based on the gear. Part of the reasoning behind the mod 6 stat scaling and the removal of the sets like High Prophet, was the idea that their set bonuses were too strong. It's why mod 6 was introduced without set bonuses and those legacy items are no longer available. The HP set improves dps of the entire party by more, with a perfect uptime, than any current power set can do. A legit run would be using items that are available in the current game. The available items in the current game should be all that is required to complete the current content.
Just because the high prophet and high vizier sets are grandfathered in that they weren't deleted from people's inventories, does not make using them an example of the content being balanced. It's like playing a Magic: The Gathering deck using banned, or 4 of the same restricted card and then patting yourself on the back for how amazing you did. These things are removed for a reason, and if they become one of the few reasonable ways to fight the boss battles, then the design is trash and imbalanced. When Guardian Fighters are dying to a single hit with their block up and standing in an Astral Shield, the game is horribly broken.
Frankly, any player saying they beat T2 dungeons fairly with 2k iLevel ranges are being disingenuous when using sets like High Prophet or other legacy sets. High Prophet is a level 60 Tier 1 armour so the iLevel for each piece may be 72. No amount of armour penetration and critical chance is going to match the bonus of "When striking a foe you shred 10% of their armor. This effect stacks up to 3 times. Lasts 4 seconds" which is a 30% damage bonus for ALL players to the effected mob. So the use of these sets is actually artificially deflating the iLevel of those players who are probably using Greater/Rank 9 enchantments (minimum) and Legendary artifacts to make up that difference, hitting 2400 iLevel.
Players doing this and posting that they completed things legitimately should be explaining that this is the gear they were using, rather than misleading players, and the developers, into thinking that all is well with the design.
A true 2-2.4k iLevel in the current game would be Blue Alliance sets, rank 7 enchantments, Blue/Purple artifact items and artifacts.
P.S. as to PoE deaths, my first ever was getting my Ethereal Knives build into the 3rd tier of difficulty and running into a large group of damage reflecting mobs. One button press, instadeath... oh man that hurt...