People who turn it into a Casual vs. Hardcore "us vs. them" argument will never understand the value of a death penalty, regardless of which side you fall on. The above post is so full of generalized nonsense, I wouldn't know where to begin.
the avlue of a death penalty is to add a time sink of some kind which inhibits the flow of gameplay, resulting in what's known as downtime. people spend this time alt tabbing, chatting in shout/zone/guild chat, or bio/coffee/smoke breaks. it is time spent not playing the game.
when you only have a couple hours a day to play, it CAN SEVERELY IMPACT YOUR PLAY TIME AND THE AMOUNT OF FUN YOU HAVE PLAYING A GAME. oops caps. when you have many hours a day to play a game, death peanlty has less of an impact.
in past mmo's i have played, i have reduced downtime as much as possible, by paying for a second account, or by buying consumables, and even by RMT. i also had a lot of time per day to play those games, so death penalty didn't affect me that much, where as other players who i played with and spent more time in downtime either due to downtime or death penalty quit the games rather than deal with the frustration fo spending even more time regaining lost progress, grinding 300 hours to regain lost gear, or spending their precious in game currency on items to mitigate downtime/exp loss or buying and subbing a second third or fourth account.
the trend in teh past five years, since and including wow, has been to mitigate and reduce downtime wether from death penalties or otherwise more and more. even downtime from things like forming a group or traveling across the map have been reduced severely. some revcent games have had severe death penalties, such as potbs or darkfall, but the people who play those games are few and far between, and in the case of darkfall, they are advertised as features for those gamers that want them.
i have played games that took a year plus to reach high-max level with grinding every day for 4-8+ hours a day, had a severe death penalty, hardcore pvp, impossible raid encounters, % chance crafting, massive player driven economies etc, and whileii have done may things that worthy of bragging about in those games, i ahve never felt a particular sense of accomplishment. i got felt more accomplishment from certains ituations in counterstrike than i ever have in any mmo.
no mmo has ever been "hard"or "challenging" at worst they are a endurance challenge. or a frustration challenge. how many times can you deal with wiping a night in wow before you finally bring it together as araid group and beat that boss and put it on farm? how many hours can you camp a single spot of 5-10 mobs that you kill as quickly as possible per day, how many millions of gold can you spend on attempts to craft a sword with 60% success rate.
the rewards in mmo's are not real, the only thing you really risk no matter how weak or severe the death penalty is time. if you have lots of time to play you have already made it easy mode for yourself and reduced the risk involved considerably for very little if any reward.
the only people who gain any real reward from playing mmo's are RMT farmers, and they reduce risk in every possible way, from zerging with full parties of botted or real players, to 24/7 players on shifts, to buying 10-50 accounts at a time. they are the only ones who take any risk, since they risk losing their real money investment in buying and subbing the game and being banned for RMT botting.
if youa re a thrill seeker then you're really not getting the best high for your time by playing mmo's and should look into extreme snowboarding/skiiing or sky diving.
Here's an idea: Make the DP an option. Those who want it get better rewards and access to more risky missions; those who don't can fly around in easy-mode with their whites and greens. Everybody wins.
Doesn't that just make all those claiming to want a DP for the "challenge" a bunch of liars? Sounds more like a way to get more loot over any real satisfaction of beating a challenge.
Because we want a challenge, and I'm sorry but "dying" and then respawning a few km away UNSCATHED from being ****ing BLOWN UP makes no sense whatsoever and just isn't fun.
Yet nothing short of showing a funeral scene and then the create new character screen would make sense after "dying" in game.
Great tell you what? When you die, go delete your character. That should get your juices flowing. Don't dictate how I should play my game.
I for one don't need a DP to teach me how to play. There is no tactical depth introduced with a DP, if anything, just a time sink. People will play together when they want to, not when they are forced to. What taste of victory when most people will just sit back and let others do their work for them. Sacrifice the sucker pulling the 5 ships and just pull one for yourself. It's already rampant in most zones and it'll just get worse with DP.
No need for me to repeat what's been said countless times before when it's obvious you have no interest in genuine dialog. Your mind is made up, and you've convinced yourself that you speak for the majority, while mocking anyone who doesn't share your opinion.
You are simply not intelligent enough to understand what I said.
And ad hominems generally indicate the lack of any real substance for one's position.
qft. Everyone would benefit from a DP.
It's nonsensical since it is obvious for some the DP would be a negative aspect of the game. No amount of intelligence makes the statement more accurate or substantive.
A. "A Death Penalty will make players actually think about what they are doing and use tactics"
Refutation: First off, if a player needs motivation to do their best in a game, then that's another issue, however, if the content of the game is sufficiently challenging, and a player cannot beat an encounter, they will not be able to progress beyond that encounter (provided their is not an associated exploit to use, which will be covered in another point). Thus, the fact that they cannot advance past that encounter should be sufficient to force the player to use tactics and strategy to overcome the challenge. No death penalty required! \ However, if you feel further, external, motivation is required, then a system that rewards players not dieing can be implemented. No time sinks necessary.
B. "A Death Penalty makes the game more challenging"
Refutation: A death penalty is an artificial handicap on the player that does not in any way change the difficulty of content in the game. The NPCs will not fly any different or fight any better if you have a debuff from death, or lose your ship when you die, or de - level upon death. If you wish to increase/improve the challenge level of the game, the appropriate way is by improving the content. In other words, improve AI behavior, change spawn settings, and introduce environmental elements that impact the battlefield (Briar Patch is an example of somewhat heading in the right direction in that regard, but misses on many accounts), etc etc. The handicaps imposed by DP systems are time sinks. Time sinks are not challenges- if a drill sergeant tells you to paint a battalion's worth of rocks white and line them in formation, this is not challenging, just a waste of time. Likewise, handicaps from DPs are not challenging, just a waste of time to fix them (either re level in easier content, grind money, or wait for debuff to expire).
C. Same as point A and the answer is simple if a Player does not perfrom like a normal person and employs the use of exploits in a team, YOU NEVER TEAM WITH THAT PLAYER, thats what Ignore is for.
D. "A Death Penalty adds risk to the game which keeps it 'fresh' "
Refutation: It is the content of of a game that makes it engaging or not. If you are getting bored with a game, suddenly finding yourself with a debuff/equipment loss/money loss will only temporarily alleviate that boredom. Once your regularly overcome said setbacks and are once again familiar with the same content, you will become bored again.
All are simple logical rebutes to your reasons most of your points can be addressed by content imprpvement, You as a player not worring about what other players do (You cannot find an exploiter, I challenge you too) do YOUR best and enjoy the game, use ignore, leave or boot people from teams or fleets that don't pan out, in short there are systems IN GAME right now to deal with these people.
DPs are simple they do one thing, they make you spend more time on the game repeating or farming content.
Doesn't that just make all those claiming to want a DP for the "challenge" a bunch of liars? Sounds more like a way to get more loot over any real satisfaction of beating a challenge.
Those who take more of a risk should earn a better reward, no?
Regardless, my comment was only half-serious, but in principle it does make sense.
You are simply not intelligent enough to understand what I said.
Sounds more like you don't understand how much of a waste of time DPs are... Think about this. You're in a group of 4 people ready to do some content. Something goes wrong and your party dies except you.
Let supposed there some sort of DP, and it takes them 20 mins to recover, perhaps they need to take a break at that point, get a smoke, drink whatever. By the time they finally get back to you, an hour has passed. Someone says, well I can't stay, I gotta run. Now you gotta get another member. That takes another 30 mins. Will you actually get to enjoy your content? or do you waste your entire night because DP is preventing you from enjoying your game?
It encourages parties and raids to do everything to survive. Thats the point.
I wonder what's so hard to understand about that... seriously.
funny enough 90% of raid guilds spend most of their time wiping over and over and over again until they get it right the first time and more time spent wiping over and over again until they get it on farm.
there is no penalty to dying in pvp, except having to run back to your body if youa re killed in the world or losing points and getting gear at a slower rate in arenas.
in both cases dying itself is the biggest penalty. in raids the boss resets. in pvp you are mostly accountable only to yourself, or some cases lost face.
and yet in wow people still complain about the death penalty and rage/cry over dying, even in pvp where there is little if any death penalty at all.
Sounds more like you don't understand how much of a waste of time DPs are... Think about this. You're in a group of 4 people ready to do some content. Something goes wrong and your party dies except you.
Let supposed there some sort of DP, and it takes them 20 mins to recover, perhaps they need to take a break at that point, get a smoke, drink whatever. By the time they finally get back to you, an hour has passed. Someone says, well I can't stay, I gotta run. Now you gotta get another member. That takes another 30 mins. Will you actually get to enjoy your content? or do you waste your entire night because DP is preventing you from enjoying your game?
the avlue of a death penalty is to add a time sink of some kind which inhibits the flow of gameplay, resulting in what's known as downtime. people spend this time alt tabbing, chatting in shout/zone/guild chat, or bio/coffee/smoke breaks. it is time spent not playing the game.
when you only have a couple hours a day to play, it CAN SEVERELY IMPACT YOUR PLAY TIME AND THE AMOUNT OF FUN YOU HAVE PLAYING A GAME. oops caps. when you have many hours a day to play a game, death peanlty has less of an impact.
in past mmo's i have played, i have reduced downtime as much as possible, by paying for a second account, or by buying consumables, and even by RMT. i also had a lot of time per day to play those games, so death penalty didn't affect me that much, where as other players who i played with and spent more time in downtime either due to downtime or death penalty quit the games rather than deal with the frustration fo spending even more time regaining lost progress, grinding 300 hours to regain lost gear, or spending their precious in game currency on items to mitigate downtime/exp loss or buying and subbing a second third or fourth account.
the trend in teh past five years, since and including wow, has been to mitigate and reduce downtime wether from death penalties or otherwise more and more. even downtime from things like forming a group or traveling across the map have been reduced severely. some revcent games have had severe death penalties, such as potbs or darkfall, but the people who play those games are few and far between, and in the case of darkfall, they are advertised as features for those gamers that want them.
i have played games that took a year plus to reach high-max level with grinding every day for 4-8+ hours a day, had a severe death penalty, hardcore pvp, impossible raid encounters, % chance crafting, massive player driven economies etc, and whileii have done may things that worthy of bragging about in those games, i ahve never felt a particular sense of accomplishment. i got felt more accomplishment from certains ituations in counterstrike than i ever have in any mmo.
no mmo has ever been "hard"or "challenging" at worst they are a endurance challenge. or a frustration challenge. how many times can you deal with wiping a night in wow before you finally bring it together as araid group and beat that boss and put it on farm? how many hours can you camp a single spot of 5-10 mobs that you kill as quickly as possible per day, how many millions of gold can you spend on attempts to craft a sword with 60% success rate.
the rewards in mmo's are not real, the only thing you really risk no matter how weak or severe the death penalty is time. if you have lots of time to play you have already made it easy mode for yourself and reduced the risk involved considerably for very little if any reward.
the only people who gain any real reward from playing mmo's are RMT farmers, and they reduce risk in every possible way, from zerging with full parties of botted or real players, to 24/7 players on shifts, to buying 10-50 accounts at a time. they are the only ones who take any risk, since they risk losing their real money investment in buying and subbing the game and being banned for RMT botting.
if youa re a thrill seeker then you're really not getting the best high for your time by playing mmo's and should look into extreme snowboarding/skiiing or sky diving.
Very excellent points, plus harsher DPs encourage more exploiting, we see this in EQ and EVE, it creates exclusions based on class types (Ask Beastlords how many raids they were invited to or Rangers as far along as Omen of War?) And creates tactics like zerg gangs that use inexpensive ships and unskilled pilots to take down heavy frieghters in controlled space and make money.
Odd, how your mind made up on this issue is somehow the superior position.
What's even more odd is that I haven't even stated my position, let alone made an argument for it. I'm all for meaningful discussion, but these assumption-laden "I'm right, you're wrong" posts are doing nothing to contribute to it.
So we can toss out all the claims of "challenge" and "satisfaction" and boil it down to wanting more leet loots?
You're missing the point. Some people want challenge, some don't. Should the people who want it easy, to just insta-spawn without penalty, be entitled to the same rewards as people who actually take some risk?
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't. Again, you're making assumptions when I'm just throwing out food for thought.
don't need DP to learn to play unless you're an idiot.
I mean "really play", as in "appy tactics, use skills right and perfect everything". Not as in "lol this game roxx, I can kill this strongest boss while I'm doing the dishes with the other hand".
You're missing the point. Some people want challenge, some don't. Should the people who want it easy, to just insta-spawn without penalty, be entitled to the same rewards as people who actually take some risk?
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't. Again, you're making assumptions when I'm just throwing out food for thought.
I'm all for a hardcore server. you want to play with DP, fine, they will make a server for you. You can die permanently when you die. Problem solved.
I mean "really play", as in "appy tactics, use skills right and perfect everything". Not as in "lol this game roxx, I can kill this strongest boss while I'm doing the dishes with the other hand".
I can do that with my eyes closed. Whats your point? What use is DP when you don't die anyway? It is not like this game has any real AI or tactics. Using the skills right and perfect and everything is so easy a trained monkey could do it.
And if your phone rings, someone knocks on your door, dog or cat need you, ISP craps out, a Dev patch has the damage turned up ten times the normal and you can't win, you jump into a fleet action take a bit longer to regain control and load and see your ship a flaming wreck when the instance is loaded, you do your best and just simplily make a mistake, and you die as a result, how about that? You people forget that there are circumstances besides bad players zerging everything that happen, the trouble is YOU and no one can know how many zergers or how many of these circumstances are occuring, you assume its mostly exploiters, I don't but thats opinion the fact is a DP WILL affect players who did nothing wrong, and the less time you have to play them more a DP will affect you.
And if your phone rings, someone knocks on your door, dog or cat need you, ISP craps out, a Dev patch has the damage turned up ten times the normal and you can't win, you jump into a fleet action take a bit longer to regain control and load and see your ship a flaming wreck when the instance is loaded, you do your best and just simplily make a mistake, and you die as a result, how about that? You people forget that there are circumstances besides bad players zerging everything that happen, the trouble is YOU and no one can know how many zergers or how many of these circumstances are occuring, you assume its mostly exploiters, I don't but thats opinion the fact is a DP WILL affect players who did nothing wrong, and the less time you have to play them more a DP will affect you.
Of course it would. The same can be said for any MMO. In a game that cannot be paused, you take a risk if you have a poor ISP, or if you get up to answer the door.
Comments
a) It encourages you to learn to play
b) It adds tactical depth
c) It encourages people to PLAY TOGETHER
d) It makes the taste of victory REALLY sweet
WoW's DP is not "horrible" in any sense of the word. It's a time sink, that's all.
the avlue of a death penalty is to add a time sink of some kind which inhibits the flow of gameplay, resulting in what's known as downtime. people spend this time alt tabbing, chatting in shout/zone/guild chat, or bio/coffee/smoke breaks. it is time spent not playing the game.
when you only have a couple hours a day to play, it CAN SEVERELY IMPACT YOUR PLAY TIME AND THE AMOUNT OF FUN YOU HAVE PLAYING A GAME. oops caps. when you have many hours a day to play a game, death peanlty has less of an impact.
in past mmo's i have played, i have reduced downtime as much as possible, by paying for a second account, or by buying consumables, and even by RMT. i also had a lot of time per day to play those games, so death penalty didn't affect me that much, where as other players who i played with and spent more time in downtime either due to downtime or death penalty quit the games rather than deal with the frustration fo spending even more time regaining lost progress, grinding 300 hours to regain lost gear, or spending their precious in game currency on items to mitigate downtime/exp loss or buying and subbing a second third or fourth account.
the trend in teh past five years, since and including wow, has been to mitigate and reduce downtime wether from death penalties or otherwise more and more. even downtime from things like forming a group or traveling across the map have been reduced severely. some revcent games have had severe death penalties, such as potbs or darkfall, but the people who play those games are few and far between, and in the case of darkfall, they are advertised as features for those gamers that want them.
i have played games that took a year plus to reach high-max level with grinding every day for 4-8+ hours a day, had a severe death penalty, hardcore pvp, impossible raid encounters, % chance crafting, massive player driven economies etc, and whileii have done may things that worthy of bragging about in those games, i ahve never felt a particular sense of accomplishment. i got felt more accomplishment from certains ituations in counterstrike than i ever have in any mmo.
no mmo has ever been "hard"or "challenging" at worst they are a endurance challenge. or a frustration challenge. how many times can you deal with wiping a night in wow before you finally bring it together as araid group and beat that boss and put it on farm? how many hours can you camp a single spot of 5-10 mobs that you kill as quickly as possible per day, how many millions of gold can you spend on attempts to craft a sword with 60% success rate.
the rewards in mmo's are not real, the only thing you really risk no matter how weak or severe the death penalty is time. if you have lots of time to play you have already made it easy mode for yourself and reduced the risk involved considerably for very little if any reward.
the only people who gain any real reward from playing mmo's are RMT farmers, and they reduce risk in every possible way, from zerging with full parties of botted or real players, to 24/7 players on shifts, to buying 10-50 accounts at a time. they are the only ones who take any risk, since they risk losing their real money investment in buying and subbing the game and being banned for RMT botting.
if youa re a thrill seeker then you're really not getting the best high for your time by playing mmo's and should look into extreme snowboarding/skiiing or sky diving.
Doesn't that just make all those claiming to want a DP for the "challenge" a bunch of liars? Sounds more like a way to get more loot over any real satisfaction of beating a challenge.
It encourages parties and raids to do everything to survive. Thats the point.
I wonder what's so hard to understand about that... seriously.
Yet nothing short of showing a funeral scene and then the create new character screen would make sense after "dying" in game.
Great tell you what? When you die, go delete your character. That should get your juices flowing. Don't dictate how I should play my game.
I for one don't need a DP to teach me how to play. There is no tactical depth introduced with a DP, if anything, just a time sink. People will play together when they want to, not when they are forced to. What taste of victory when most people will just sit back and let others do their work for them. Sacrifice the sucker pulling the 5 ships and just pull one for yourself. It's already rampant in most zones and it'll just get worse with DP.
This is one of the most nonsensical statements ever.
You mean like pretty much any video game you play?
No the point was how horrible it was... it's not. It's a time sink. People want to avoid time sinks. I wonder why that's so hard to understand.
Pot. Kettle.
Odd, how your mind made up on this issue is somehow the superior position.
You are simply not intelligent enough to understand what I said.
And ad hominems generally indicate the lack of any real substance for one's position.
It's nonsensical since it is obvious for some the DP would be a negative aspect of the game. No amount of intelligence makes the statement more accurate or substantive.
Ok let's see
A. "A Death Penalty will make players actually think about what they are doing and use tactics"
Refutation: First off, if a player needs motivation to do their best in a game, then that's another issue, however, if the content of the game is sufficiently challenging, and a player cannot beat an encounter, they will not be able to progress beyond that encounter (provided their is not an associated exploit to use, which will be covered in another point). Thus, the fact that they cannot advance past that encounter should be sufficient to force the player to use tactics and strategy to overcome the challenge. No death penalty required! \
However, if you feel further, external, motivation is required, then a system that rewards players not dieing can be implemented. No time sinks necessary.
B. "A Death Penalty makes the game more challenging"
Refutation: A death penalty is an artificial handicap on the player that does not in any way change the difficulty of content in the game. The NPCs will not fly any different or fight any better if you have a debuff from death, or lose your ship when you die, or de - level upon death.
If you wish to increase/improve the challenge level of the game, the appropriate way is by improving the content. In other words, improve AI behavior, change spawn settings, and introduce environmental elements that impact the battlefield (Briar Patch is an example of somewhat heading in the right direction in that regard, but misses on many accounts), etc etc. The handicaps imposed by DP systems are time sinks. Time sinks are not challenges- if a drill sergeant tells you to paint a battalion's worth of rocks white and line them in formation, this is not challenging, just a waste of time. Likewise, handicaps from DPs are not challenging, just a waste of time to fix them (either re level in easier content, grind money, or wait for debuff to expire).
C. Same as point A and the answer is simple if a Player does not perfrom like a normal person and employs the use of exploits in a team, YOU NEVER TEAM WITH THAT PLAYER, thats what Ignore is for.
D. "A Death Penalty adds risk to the game which keeps it 'fresh' "
Refutation: It is the content of of a game that makes it engaging or not. If you are getting bored with a game, suddenly finding yourself with a debuff/equipment loss/money loss will only temporarily alleviate that boredom. Once your regularly overcome said setbacks and are once again familiar with the same content, you will become bored again.
All are simple logical rebutes to your reasons most of your points can be addressed by content imprpvement, You as a player not worring about what other players do (You cannot find an exploiter, I challenge you too) do YOUR best and enjoy the game, use ignore, leave or boot people from teams or fleets that don't pan out, in short there are systems IN GAME right now to deal with these people.
DPs are simple they do one thing, they make you spend more time on the game repeating or farming content.
Regardless, my comment was only half-serious, but in principle it does make sense.
Sounds more like you don't understand how much of a waste of time DPs are... Think about this. You're in a group of 4 people ready to do some content. Something goes wrong and your party dies except you.
Let supposed there some sort of DP, and it takes them 20 mins to recover, perhaps they need to take a break at that point, get a smoke, drink whatever. By the time they finally get back to you, an hour has passed. Someone says, well I can't stay, I gotta run. Now you gotta get another member. That takes another 30 mins. Will you actually get to enjoy your content? or do you waste your entire night because DP is preventing you from enjoying your game?
So we can toss out all the claims of "challenge" and "satisfaction" and boil it down to wanting more leet loots?
funny enough 90% of raid guilds spend most of their time wiping over and over and over again until they get it right the first time and more time spent wiping over and over again until they get it on farm.
there is no penalty to dying in pvp, except having to run back to your body if youa re killed in the world or losing points and getting gear at a slower rate in arenas.
in both cases dying itself is the biggest penalty. in raids the boss resets. in pvp you are mostly accountable only to yourself, or some cases lost face.
and yet in wow people still complain about the death penalty and rage/cry over dying, even in pvp where there is little if any death penalty at all.
How about learning to play?
Very excellent points, plus harsher DPs encourage more exploiting, we see this in EQ and EVE, it creates exclusions based on class types (Ask Beastlords how many raids they were invited to or Rangers as far along as Omen of War?) And creates tactics like zerg gangs that use inexpensive ships and unskilled pilots to take down heavy frieghters in controlled space and make money.
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Dionaea
don't need DP to learn to play unless you're an idiot.
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't. Again, you're making assumptions when I'm just throwing out food for thought.
I mean "really play", as in "appy tactics, use skills right and perfect everything". Not as in "lol this game roxx, I can kill this strongest boss while I'm doing the dishes with the other hand".
I'm all for a hardcore server. you want to play with DP, fine, they will make a server for you. You can die permanently when you die. Problem solved.
I can do that with my eyes closed. Whats your point? What use is DP when you don't die anyway? It is not like this game has any real AI or tactics. Using the skills right and perfect and everything is so easy a trained monkey could do it.
And if your phone rings, someone knocks on your door, dog or cat need you, ISP craps out, a Dev patch has the damage turned up ten times the normal and you can't win, you jump into a fleet action take a bit longer to regain control and load and see your ship a flaming wreck when the instance is loaded, you do your best and just simplily make a mistake, and you die as a result, how about that? You people forget that there are circumstances besides bad players zerging everything that happen, the trouble is YOU and no one can know how many zergers or how many of these circumstances are occuring, you assume its mostly exploiters, I don't but thats opinion the fact is a DP WILL affect players who did nothing wrong, and the less time you have to play them more a DP will affect you.