I agree. The passionate criticism of the character of Michael Burnham is really old at that point and the majority of it is based on the old "when I was in the navy that wouldn't fly" argument. If you are a military aficionado 'Star Trek' really is not your show. It is not about that, maybe JAG is more to your liking.
The whole "Vulcan Hello" thing however is a complete arsepull and something Starfleet captains or the Admiralty (which includes Vulcans!) aren't familiar with? Yes, the Shenzhou's crew is the viewer because they don't know about it because the writers just changed the rules. That's complete nonsense. The whole mutiny thing isn't the problem here.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
The whole "Vulcan Hello" thing however is a complete arsepull and something Starfleet captains or the Admiralty (which includes Vulcans!) aren't familiar with? Yes, the Shenzhou's crew is the viewer because they don't know about it because the writers just changed the rules. That's complete nonsense. The whole mutiny thing isn't the problem here.
Agreed. For the episodes which were supposed to 'hook' people into DSC, Battle of the Binary Stars made a real hash of it. I'm not saying the rest of DSC was gold dust or anything, but the pilot probably had the weakest writing of the entire show!
> @ryan218 said:
> angrytarg wrote: »
>
> The whole "Vulcan Hello" thing however is a complete arsepull and something Starfleet captains or the Admiralty (which includes Vulcans!) aren't familiar with? Yes, the Shenzhou's crew is the viewer because they don't know about it because the writers just changed the rules. That's complete nonsense. The whole mutiny thing isn't the problem here.
>
>
>
>
> Agreed. For the episodes which were supposed to 'hook' people into DSC, Battle of the Binary Stars made a real hash of it. I'm not saying the rest of DSC was gold dust or anything, but the pilot probably had the weakest writing of the entire show!
In what way was Binary worse than Encounter at Farpoint? Threshold? The Storyteller? A Night in Sickbay? Code of Honor (an episode so bad the TNG cast still appologizes for it)? Turnabout Intruder? Take off the rose colored beer goggles.
Season 2 starts tonight, can't wait.
I don't think he's saying it was a 'worst ever episode' only that it wasn't a good pilot. I'd agree. The only pilot I enjoyed was The Cage and it's a shame TOS wasn't like that.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
The truth of the Klingon's intentions has no bearing on the act Burnham performed. She had no way to know, no evidence, that their intentions were anything but the usual border raid stuff that had been going on since Enterprise. She acted on the arrogant assumption that she was wiser than her captain, whose greater experience alone deserved a degree of respect Burnham never acknowledged.
Clearly you didn't watch the episode or listen to the dialogue and are just parroting the usual diatribe because you don't like the show. Burnham's instincts were correct. Georgiou even agreed with her. Sarek reasoned her assumptions about the Klingons behaving out of the ordinary were correct. If anything, it was adhering to protocol and procedure that allowed everything to happen.
The result is irrelevant. Even had she stopped a war from happening, her actions were the actions of an insubordinate egotist who should never have been a heartbeat away from the captaincy. In fact, I would have had trouble with her scrubbing conduits in the engine room.
And James Kirk should have been tossed out of Starfleet Academy for cheating on the final exam. How many time did Picard violate the Prime Directive? Or are those ok because you liked those shows?
None of my arguments are based on if I liked the show or not. In fact, I saw the first episode and I didn't see anything that caused me to 'dislike' it. I personally think it would have been better as generic sci-fi because it violated core concepts of Trek. Without the Trek baggage, none of my objections would be valid.
A service which selects officers based on nepotism rather than professionalism would indeed spit out the occasional Burnham or Arbuthnot, but Starfleet is supposed to be a professional navy with competent admirals promoted based on merit.
As for Picard: like TOS, you'd have to ask me episode by episode if I liked it or not. They were pretty hit-and-miss. I'm not a Discovery hater. I just disagree with the direction they've taken Trek.
I shall sum up my position once again so that posters do not feel they have to extrapolate opinions I do not hold from what I've posted:
"The new Trek has taken away the optimistic view of humanity's future which was a primary factor in my enjoyment of the show and replaced it with all the things which make our world suck. I don't need to see the dark side of Trek; I can walk down my street and see all of that I care to see."
All of the rest of my arguments were intended to support that thesis.
> @ryan218 said:
> angrytarg wrote: »
>
> The whole "Vulcan Hello" thing however is a complete arsepull and something Starfleet captains or the Admiralty (which includes Vulcans!) aren't familiar with? Yes, the Shenzhou's crew is the viewer because they don't know about it because the writers just changed the rules. That's complete nonsense. The whole mutiny thing isn't the problem here.
>
>
>
>
> Agreed. For the episodes which were supposed to 'hook' people into DSC, Battle of the Binary Stars made a real hash of it. I'm not saying the rest of DSC was gold dust or anything, but the pilot probably had the weakest writing of the entire show!
In what way was Binary worse than Encounter at Farpoint? Threshold? The Storyteller? A Night in Sickbay? Code of Honor (an episode so bad the TNG cast still appologizes for it)? Turnabout Intruder? Take off the rose colored beer goggles.
Season 2 starts tonight, can't wait.
When I said 'entire show', I meant the show (Star Trek: Discovery), not the entire franchise.
"The new Trek has taken away the optimistic view of humanity's future which was a primary factor in my enjoyment of the show and replaced it with all the things which make our world suck."
Except, it hasn't.
Show me how we're seeing a positive outlook for humanity rather than simply bringing all the old problems with us into space in newer Trek. But in another thread, this one's about the spin-off.
"Hey, I have an idea! You know that evil version of Captain Star Power?"
"You mean Emperor Georgiou?"
"Yeah! Why don't we make a series focusing on her?"
"You want to make a show where the main character is an authoritarian, xenophobic, cannibalistic lunatic with absolutely no morality, no displayed desire to be anything resembling a good person, and who is completely unrelatable to the audience?"
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
like discovery, no interest since it's all behind a paywall... and it is ONLY in development. announced before season 2 to drum interest/news buzz... like ST4 was announced before ST3 was released. let's see how this all plays out with the fullness of time.
...Her actions disrupted the functioning of the ship and crew in a high-stress environment that was also high-threat, this makes her at fault for the destruction of her ship-because she forced a situation where the crew could not perform due diligence in the face of the external threat, because they were busy and thrown off by her actions generating an internal threat.
The Klingons were going to start a war and destroy every ship they could no matter what. You can try to blame her for it from now until the end of time and it still won't make it true.
Yeah the only thing weird about that scenario is how Starfleet forgot about the way the Vulcans interacted with the Klingons back before the Federation was a thing.
...Her actions disrupted the functioning of the ship and crew in a high-stress environment that was also high-threat, this makes her at fault for the destruction of her ship-because she forced a situation where the crew could not perform due diligence in the face of the external threat, because they were busy and thrown off by her actions generating an internal threat.
The Klingons were going to start a war and destroy every ship they could no matter what. You can try to blame her for it from now until the end of time and it still won't make it true.
Yeah the only thing weird about that scenario is how Starfleet forgot about the way the Vulcans interacted with the Klingons back before the Federation was a thing.
Did the Vulcans ever tell them? They're not exactly known for offering anything freely except sarcasm and condescension.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though. JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Optimistic Grim Dark! It could be a whole new subgenre. Seriously, do they know Section 31 are the bad guys, abit ones that work for a great cause?
I'm not sure how optomistic a show about a Shadowy, rogue, none governmental spy agency, who are completely ruthless,and accountable to no one, with an agent who is Cannibal Space Hilter can be.
Optimistic Grim Dark! It could be a whole new subgenre. Seriously, do they know Section 31 are the bad guys, abit ones that work for a great cause?
I'm not sure how optomistic a show about a Shadowy, rogue, none governmental spy agency, who are completely ruthless,and accountable to no one, with an agent who is Cannibal Space Hilter can be.
Show me how we're seeing a positive outlook for humanity rather than simply bringing all the old problems with us into space in newer Trek.
I'm not seeing a dystopic/apocolyptic nuclear wasteland future on Earth anywhere in Discovery.
Since I never made that argument, this is not a refutation of my position. Humanity's failure to progress culturally is my issue. Or, in the words of the post just prior to the one I quoted above,
"Hey, I have an idea! You know that evil version of Captain Star Power?"
"You mean Emperor Georgiou?"
"Yeah! Why don't we make a series focusing on her?"
"You want to make a show where the main character is an authoritarian, xenophobic, cannibalistic lunatic with absolutely no morality, no displayed desire to be anything resembling a good person, and who is completely unrelatable to the audience?"
The issue with that theory Pat, is that it's established Burnham's assignment was a special case.
just about every time someone's friend, brother or in-law gets an important job they're not qualified for, is a "Special Case", Ryan, and most of the time the person using the leverage will insist it's a special case, a 'necessary exception to the rules', even if they did the same thing last week and the week before.
More or less, Burnham having that position is a symptom of a deeper malaise, and suggests there are lots of such exemptions in Starfleet, which in turn fits with their record in the field when a war finally did come. It fits, it makes sense that Starfleet would lose their asses as badly as the show said, if the people in critical roles were...ehm...less than qualified, having gotten their position either by connections, or internal politics, rather than competence or ability. A bit, as I said, like the French Army of Napoleon III in the 1870s.
You know what "special" means, right? It means "atypical". If Starfleet was as contaminated with Nepotism as you say, it wouldn't be atypical. The buying of commissions in C19th France (and Prussia, and the U.K., and Russia) was typical. If you were a member of the aristocracy, you had to secure an officer's commission for your eldest son (in Britain the second-oldest went to the navy, because the navy was seen as more dangerous than the army). It was never a special case. No one even pretended as such.
By contrast, Starfleet has an Officer Academy, with millions of applicants, which we know produced the finest officers in the service: Christopher Pike, James T. Kirk, Phillipa Georgiou, Robert April, Spock, Jonathon Archer.
Indeed, the only reason it appears Burnham got the place was because her grades from the Vulcan Science Council were considered sufficient (Sarek and the entire Council knew full well she qualified for the Vulcan Expeditionary Fleet; in fact, it appears as though she recieved a passing mark but was failed anyway). In any event, every single other character we see went through the academy. The accusation of institutional nepotism is baseless.
The issue with that theory Pat, is that it's established Burnham's assignment was a special case.
just about every time someone's friend, brother or in-law gets an important job they're not qualified for, is a "Special Case", Ryan, and most of the time the person using the leverage will insist it's a special case, a 'necessary exception to the rules', even if they did the same thing last week and the week before.
More or less, Burnham having that position is a symptom of a deeper malaise, and suggests there are lots of such exemptions in Starfleet, which in turn fits with their record in the field when a war finally did come. It fits, it makes sense that Starfleet would lose their asses as badly as the show said, if the people in critical roles were...ehm...less than qualified, having gotten their position either by connections, or internal politics, rather than competence or ability. A bit, as I said, like the French Army of Napoleon III in the 1870s.
You know what "special" means, right? It means "atypical". If Starfleet was as contaminated with Nepotism as you say, it wouldn't be atypical. The buying of commissions in C19th France (and Prussia, and the U.K., and Russia) was typical. If you were a member of the aristocracy, you had to secure an officer's commission for your eldest son (in Britain the second-oldest went to the navy, because the navy was seen as more dangerous than the army). It was never a special case. No one even pretended as such.
By contrast, Starfleet has an Officer Academy, with millions of applicants, which we know produced the finest officers in the service: Christopher Pike, James T. Kirk, Phillipa Georgiou, Robert April, Spock, Jonathon Archer.
Indeed, the only reason it appears Burnham got the place was because her grades from the Vulcan Science Council were considered sufficient (Sarek and the entire Council knew full well she qualified for the Vulcan Expeditionary Fleet; in fact, it appears as though she recieved a passing mark but was failed anyway). In any event, every single other character we see went through the academy. The accusation of institutional nepotism is baseless.
you seem to forget there were a great many fine officers in the 19th century in spite of the system of purchased commissions.
Now you're contradicting your own supporting argument.
SFA may have produced some very fine officers indeed, but it also produced Gary Mitchell, Kelvar Garth, various corrupt captains and admirals throughout TOS, TNG, etcetera., kind of like for every Lee, Grant or Sherman, there's a Custer, Burnsides, etcetera.
Yes, but nowhere near the number that the C19th practice of purchasing commissions did.
See, you don't have t have an entire service that is inept and incompetent, the Poles put up a hell of a fight against the germans in 1939 and BEAT the russians in the 1920s, but if there are enough political appointees, you get the Russian Army at the start of Barbarossa in 1942-where there weren't enough good officers, good LEADERS, in proportion to the political appointees and party members who wanted to wear a uniform.
No, you get the Red Army at the start of Operation Barbarossa where there aren't enough officers in general because Comrade Stalin had them all shot because he had nightmares of Trotsky. By Barbarossa, the authority of the Commissars had been seriously curtailed because all those problems were identified during the Winter War with Finland. There just wasn't enough time to train enough new officers to any level of competency to fight a major war against a country which had been constantly engaged in battle for 3 years, had a sensible enlisted:officer ratio, and whose command was made up of WWI vets and generals who are widely recognised as some of the greatest of the C20th.
It Fits the situation. It's not a pretty picture, but it certainly makes more sense than the alternative explanation in which, for want of a better term, "The Best" are completely and totally inept except for Marysue Burnham and a refugee from the mirror universe.
You know what else would make more sense than that? That there are compete t's we just don't see onscreen because they're commanding ships other than the ship with a miracle drive being constantly sent behind enemy lines on solo missions. Or that Starfleet hasn't been at war for nearly a century and stubbornly refuses to call itself a military, so it's military training is hopeless, and a large portion of its fleet was blown out of the sky in the war's opening engagement.
if Starfleet of the 2250s was 'CLAIMING' to be the best, while not? or had fallen into the complacent habit of big, bureaucratic states with little to no oversight or accountability and it cost them? that works a hell of a lot better than the alternative, because it leaves room for someone to have their TRIBBLE together and pull them out of it during the nice break after almost-being-completely-overrun by an enemy that can't even fight competently.
Yes, none of which requires Starfleet to be overrun by the Right Honourable Lord Nincomp Yoop, Third Earl of Inbredham and his fellow Etonians.
Show me how we're seeing a positive outlook for humanity rather than simply bringing all the old problems with us into space in newer Trek.
I'm not seeing a dystopic/apocolyptic nuclear wasteland future on Earth anywhere in Discovery.
This would actually be an interesting Star Trek prequel. Have it set during World War III. Colonel Green wanted to kill hundreds of thousands of people that had radiation sickness so Earth had to have been a apocalyptic nuclear wasteland to some level. Of course, some areas were more of a nuclear wasteland than others.
Comments
The whole "Vulcan Hello" thing however is a complete arsepull and something Starfleet captains or the Admiralty (which includes Vulcans!) aren't familiar with? Yes, the Shenzhou's crew is the viewer because they don't know about it because the writers just changed the rules. That's complete nonsense. The whole mutiny thing isn't the problem here.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Agreed. For the episodes which were supposed to 'hook' people into DSC, Battle of the Binary Stars made a real hash of it. I'm not saying the rest of DSC was gold dust or anything, but the pilot probably had the weakest writing of the entire show!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
I don't think he's saying it was a 'worst ever episode' only that it wasn't a good pilot. I'd agree. The only pilot I enjoyed was The Cage and it's a shame TOS wasn't like that.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
None of my arguments are based on if I liked the show or not. In fact, I saw the first episode and I didn't see anything that caused me to 'dislike' it. I personally think it would have been better as generic sci-fi because it violated core concepts of Trek. Without the Trek baggage, none of my objections would be valid.
A service which selects officers based on nepotism rather than professionalism would indeed spit out the occasional Burnham or Arbuthnot, but Starfleet is supposed to be a professional navy with competent admirals promoted based on merit.
As for Picard: like TOS, you'd have to ask me episode by episode if I liked it or not. They were pretty hit-and-miss. I'm not a Discovery hater. I just disagree with the direction they've taken Trek.
I shall sum up my position once again so that posters do not feel they have to extrapolate opinions I do not hold from what I've posted:
"The new Trek has taken away the optimistic view of humanity's future which was a primary factor in my enjoyment of the show and replaced it with all the things which make our world suck. I don't need to see the dark side of Trek; I can walk down my street and see all of that I care to see."
All of the rest of my arguments were intended to support that thesis.
When I said 'entire show', I meant the show (Star Trek: Discovery), not the entire franchise.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Show me how we're seeing a positive outlook for humanity rather than simply bringing all the old problems with us into space in newer Trek. But in another thread, this one's about the spin-off.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
My character Tsin'xing
Did the Vulcans ever tell them? They're not exactly known for offering anything freely except sarcasm and condescension.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
> https://trekmovie.com/2019/01/17/showrunner-assures-section-31-series-will-not-abandon-star-trek-optimism/
Optimistic Grim Dark! It could be a whole new subgenre. Seriously, do they know Section 31 are the bad guys, abit ones that work for a great cause?
I'm not sure how optomistic a show about a Shadowy, rogue, none governmental spy agency, who are completely ruthless,and accountable to no one, with an agent who is Cannibal Space Hilter can be.
My thoughts exactly.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Since I never made that argument, this is not a refutation of my position. Humanity's failure to progress culturally is my issue. Or, in the words of the post just prior to the one I quoted above,
You know what "special" means, right? It means "atypical". If Starfleet was as contaminated with Nepotism as you say, it wouldn't be atypical. The buying of commissions in C19th France (and Prussia, and the U.K., and Russia) was typical. If you were a member of the aristocracy, you had to secure an officer's commission for your eldest son (in Britain the second-oldest went to the navy, because the navy was seen as more dangerous than the army). It was never a special case. No one even pretended as such.
By contrast, Starfleet has an Officer Academy, with millions of applicants, which we know produced the finest officers in the service: Christopher Pike, James T. Kirk, Phillipa Georgiou, Robert April, Spock, Jonathon Archer.
Indeed, the only reason it appears Burnham got the place was because her grades from the Vulcan Science Council were considered sufficient (Sarek and the entire Council knew full well she qualified for the Vulcan Expeditionary Fleet; in fact, it appears as though she recieved a passing mark but was failed anyway). In any event, every single other character we see went through the academy. The accusation of institutional nepotism is baseless.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
Now you're contradicting your own supporting argument.
Trials of Blood and Fire
Moving On Parts 1-3 - Part 4
In Cold Blood
This would actually be an interesting Star Trek prequel. Have it set during World War III. Colonel Green wanted to kill hundreds of thousands of people that had radiation sickness so Earth had to have been a apocalyptic nuclear wasteland to some level. Of course, some areas were more of a nuclear wasteland than others.