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  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,180 Arc User
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    I think the bigger problem with playable Aenar is that Aenar are blind, so the full playable Aenar experience would involve staring at a black screen with the only the UI and sound effects to tell you what is going on.

    Not all Aenar are blind, but it's a tendency, in the same way all white dogs are not deaf, but it's a tendency. But even the blind ones get some kind of visual sense from their antennae, as was described by Shran's GF when she is caught checking him out as he sleeps. I think of it as a radar in the electro-magnetic bands, but that's my headcanon. Sharks and rays have exactly this kind of sense, though it is very short range in the case of the terrestrial animals. It was never described scientifically in Entreprise.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,180 Arc User
    There are chromatically challenged players! (Is colorblind a hurtful and derogatory term now?)
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    brian334 wrote: »
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    I think the bigger problem with playable Aenar is that Aenar are blind, so the full playable Aenar experience would involve staring at a black screen with the only the UI and sound effects to tell you what is going on.

    Not all Aenar are blind, but it's a tendency, in the same way all white dogs are not deaf, but it's a tendency. But even the blind ones get some kind of visual sense from their antennae, as was described by Shran's GF when she is caught checking him out as he sleeps. I think of it as a radar in the electro-magnetic bands, but that's my headcanon. Sharks and rays have exactly this kind of sense, though it is very short range in the case of the terrestrial animals. It was never described scientifically in Entreprise.

    I think a better comparison would be that albinos (regardless of species) tend to have worse eye sight then it is norm for that species, it doesn't mean all are near blind but there's a tendency towards eye sight issues. Aenar even seem to be just albino andorians with a tendency towards telepathic abilities.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,041 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    I think the bigger problem with playable Aenar is that Aenar are blind, so the full playable Aenar experience would involve staring at a black screen with the only the UI and sound effects to tell you what is going on.

    Not all Aenar are blind, but it's a tendency, in the same way all white dogs are not deaf, but it's a tendency. But even the blind ones get some kind of visual sense from their antennae, as was described by Shran's GF when she is caught checking him out as he sleeps. I think of it as a radar in the electro-magnetic bands, but that's my headcanon. Sharks and rays have exactly this kind of sense, though it is very short range in the case of the terrestrial animals. It was never described scientifically in Entreprise.

    I think a better comparison would be that albinos (regardless of species) tend to have worse eye sight then it is norm for that species, it doesn't mean all are near blind but there's a tendency towards eye sight issues. Aenar even seem to be just albino andorians with a tendency towards telepathic abilities.
    Or in other words, andorians with a Disability Superpower.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 8,203 Arc User
    Oh dear, not a disability power but a differently abled power, don't you know. ;)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    warpangel wrote: »
    spiritborn wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    I think the bigger problem with playable Aenar is that Aenar are blind, so the full playable Aenar experience would involve staring at a black screen with the only the UI and sound effects to tell you what is going on.

    Not all Aenar are blind, but it's a tendency, in the same way all white dogs are not deaf, but it's a tendency. But even the blind ones get some kind of visual sense from their antennae, as was described by Shran's GF when she is caught checking him out as he sleeps. I think of it as a radar in the electro-magnetic bands, but that's my headcanon. Sharks and rays have exactly this kind of sense, though it is very short range in the case of the terrestrial animals. It was never described scientifically in Entreprise.

    I think a better comparison would be that albinos (regardless of species) tend to have worse eye sight then it is norm for that species, it doesn't mean all are near blind but there's a tendency towards eye sight issues. Aenar even seem to be just albino andorians with a tendency towards telepathic abilities.
    Or in other words, andorians with a Disability Superpower.
    Possibly, though most Aenar tend to be rather weak telepaths if at all, from the little we saw in ENT.

    Also doesn't that link refer to superpowers that come directly from the disability (like Daredevils sonar sight) rather just disabled people who happen to have super powers.
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,041 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    spiritborn wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    spiritborn wrote: »
    brian334 wrote: »
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    I think the bigger problem with playable Aenar is that Aenar are blind, so the full playable Aenar experience would involve staring at a black screen with the only the UI and sound effects to tell you what is going on.

    Not all Aenar are blind, but it's a tendency, in the same way all white dogs are not deaf, but it's a tendency. But even the blind ones get some kind of visual sense from their antennae, as was described by Shran's GF when she is caught checking him out as he sleeps. I think of it as a radar in the electro-magnetic bands, but that's my headcanon. Sharks and rays have exactly this kind of sense, though it is very short range in the case of the terrestrial animals. It was never described scientifically in Entreprise.

    I think a better comparison would be that albinos (regardless of species) tend to have worse eye sight then it is norm for that species, it doesn't mean all are near blind but there's a tendency towards eye sight issues. Aenar even seem to be just albino andorians with a tendency towards telepathic abilities.
    Or in other words, andorians with a Disability Superpower.
    Possibly, though most Aenar tend to be rather weak telepaths if at all, from the little we saw in ENT.

    Also doesn't that link refer to superpowers that come directly from the disability (like Daredevils sonar sight) rather just disabled people who happen to have super powers.
    It refers to people who's disabilities are countered by their superpowers.
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 1,834 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    It refers to people who's disabilities are countered by their superpowers.

    You mean people whose different abilities are countered by different abilities?

    On topic, as much as I think that the minor factions or fractions could do with more variety, especially the Roms (Suliban have been requested for as long as I play this game),
    ichaerus1 wrote: »
    Are you asking that they be a cross-faction race while you're at it, or yet another thing that leaves the Romulans, KDF, and JH out in the cold?

    (my emphasis) this would make no sense, since the Jem'Hadar faction is, well, a Jem'Hadar faction (and not a dominion faction as some have said). Which has to do with the origin being applicable to JH only and making no sense for any Vorta, Joined Trill, or Aenar.
    warpangel wrote: »
    Restricting entire races based on the personal history of one character is pretty arbitrary.

    But then all of STO's "faction" restrictions are.

    Arbitrary yes, but the principle is not without its merits. While there were quite a few individuals in canon "crossing the line" to another faction, it would feel strange to have gazillions of Vulcans roaming First City, or similar, which could easily happen depending on which characters seem desirable.

    If you should ask the question about dozens of Voth and Breen and Dominion ships circling Earth, well ... yeah, that is already bad enough.
    warpangel wrote: »
    What doesn't make sense is treating aliens as blatant racial stereotypes.

    Sense storywise? Not really, completely agreed. However, from the point of view of a writer, be it books, movies, or video games, it is a question of efficiency. We see a unnamed Klingon starship captain, we can assume certain character traits. If it were a society of individuals, as humanity is and would be expected from different species as well, we wouldn't know what to expect. That's why (almost) all of fantasy or science fiction uses the "Planet of Hats" idea, with sometimes the efforts of an individual focused on by the story make everybody change their hats, which makes even less sense in real life.

    Now, there's an abundance of literature, movies, games which only has humans in it and still works, so it could certainly be done differently. But then the other point kicks in: what would be the reason to include a different species in the first place, if it didn't have a hat and was to be just like mankind, with gazillions of individuals covering every character trait imaginable? In the end it probably a question of hitting the right spot: a tendency towards certain attitudes because of history, genetics, whatever, but a broader range of differences within a species than is usually seen.

    Some media even seem aware of the problem and make humanity renowned throughout the galaxy for the differences that can appear inbetween individuals. I think Mass Effect as an example tries to make that point. But then it gets even sillier, when you think it through - if Krogans are "hattier" then humans, what about the Krogan poet? Other examples are off as well. But you still haven't solved the underlying issue but just handwaved it.

    But I think for practical purposes it is best to accept hats as they come, however unrealistic, so we can get to the story faster. Especially in Star Trek which, despite some tries to counter it, is hatty as hell in canon, so it makes a lot of sense to have it in STO.
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,327 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    xyquarze wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    Restricting entire races based on the personal history of one character is pretty arbitrary.

    But then all of STO's "faction" restrictions are.
    Arbitrary yes, but the principle is not without its merits. While there were quite a few individuals in canon "crossing the line" to another faction, it would feel strange to have gazillions of Vulcans roaming First City, or similar, which could easily happen depending on which characters seem desirable.
    It feels strange NOT to have a bazillion vulcans and whatnot roaming First City, considering we've been allied since 2014.

    That said, vulcans should not be allowed for KDF origin, since it doesn't seem possible for a vulcan to have served as the second officer on a BoP in the tutorial where the story starts from, during a time tthe Federation and Empire are at war. That question is the only one logical one that should be asked deciding "faction" restrictions for charcters. Could the character have been there for the origin story?
    It would make sense for cross-faction HW access to be allowed after a certain point in the story.
    xyquarze wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    It refers to people who's disabilities are countered by their superpowers.
    You mean people whose different abilities are countered by different abilities?

    On topic, as much as I think that the minor factions or fractions could do with more variety, especially the Roms (Suliban have been requested for as long as I play this game),
    Interestingly, there are signs that the devs were considering making Acamarians and Suliban playable races for the Romulan Republic faction, but changed their minds for much the same reason as the Jem'Hadar story.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • tousseautousseau Member Posts: 1,368 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    You can make one with a custom alien. The skin color is tough, because the base texture is colored simply setting it to white doesn't work, but G12 is reasonably close.

    Projecting an image of yourself is an intel kit ability https://sto.gamepedia.com/Ability:_Photonic_Decoy
    For my Aenar, I use the Shard of Possibilities to represent his ability to project an image of himself.

  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    xyquarze wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    Restricting entire races based on the personal history of one character is pretty arbitrary.

    But then all of STO's "faction" restrictions are.
    Arbitrary yes, but the principle is not without its merits. While there were quite a few individuals in canon "crossing the line" to another faction, it would feel strange to have gazillions of Vulcans roaming First City, or similar, which could easily happen depending on which characters seem desirable.
    It feels strange NOT to have a bazillion vulcans and whatnot roaming First City, considering we've been allied since 2014.

    That said, vulcans should not be allowed for KDF origin, since it doesn't seem possible for a vulcan to have served as the second officer on a BoP in the tutorial where the story starts from, during a time tthe Federation and Empire are at war. That question is the only one logical one that should be asked deciding "faction" restrictions for charcters. Could the character have been there for the origin story?
    It would make sense for cross-faction HW access to be allowed after a certain point in the story.
    xyquarze wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    It refers to people who's disabilities are countered by their superpowers.
    You mean people whose different abilities are countered by different abilities?

    On topic, as much as I think that the minor factions or fractions could do with more variety, especially the Roms (Suliban have been requested for as long as I play this game),
    Interestingly, there are signs that the devs were considering making Acamarians and Suliban playable races for the Romulan Republic faction, but changed their minds for much the same reason as the Jem'Hadar story.

    Hypothetical mechanically, how would you go about limiting/opening access at points in the story?

    I mean, I can think of 'a' way to do it,b ut it would require some serious investments and possibly server changes to do it, since it would be effectively 'level locking' some of the core social areas of the game in a manner similar to Ker'rat's leveled instances.

    come to think of it, that actually sounds pretty cool, really.

    Alright, so for levels 1-whatever, where the Klingon/Federation war is going on, Qo'noS and Earth have a 'level lock' in place and neither faction can visit the other's homeworld.

    From level-whatever to the end of the Dyson Sphere, you need "Diplomatic Immunity" or "Raiding Party" to visit those hubs-reflecting the limited nature of the alliance. After Dyson, it's open on either end, but feds can't visit the lower level instances of Qo'noS, and Klinks can't visit the lower-level instances of ESD/Earth.

    Which also means they can dust off the OLD maps for both of 'em, with the higher-level instances having the NEW maps.

    Thus, your character runs around in a 'time is passing' sort of way. Maybe for Qo'noS in the interim between "house of Torg' and New Romulus, the devs can make Qo'noS a leveling/adventure zone with NPC contacts, territory control (showing the fight between House Torg and the heroes), etcetera ala the Dyson zones, while ESD is a seamless advance, and then level-lock THAT to the 'mid-levels' only, where we're basically stuck doing cross-faction stuff to level on KDF side (that is, Fed missions that have been cross-factioned, give KDF players the option NOT to relive what they just did on their fed.)

    So something like this:

    Fed/Klingon War arc
    House of Torg
    Klingon adventure zone OR redoing the retread Fed missions for ten levels
    Fek'Ihri Returns

    this finishes off the 'old Qo'nos' Map.

    New map/mid-level qo'nos instances, feds can visit if they have been granted diplomatic immunity per the Doffing progress, while KDF can visit ESD or Vulcan using raiding party.
    Dyson Sphere mission set.
    ESD gets trashed (thus finishing off the "old ESD" map.)

    Undine Advance-KDF players can see the 'New" Starbase One map and visit there, both sides can visit the other's homeworld without credentials (aka no longer needing raiding party or somesuch.)
    Iconian War arc

    Finish the House of Torg off mission (Martok's rescue), start releasing missions with the same code used for STF's to let players cross factional lines here (around levels 61 to 65.)

    or something like that?
  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    What I think they are doing is adding in discovery content for the discovery faction while also adding in maybe the klingon content. Knowing them they are most likely not adding a Klingon Discovery faction. They could maybe add In both Aenar and Andorians but I do not think they will do the Aenar they would maybe have to convince Cbs. If they were able to do so then they would just need to add the code to both. If they did decide to do a Klingon starting point which they should and have it involve the I.S.S Discovery. They could add in the Klingon Uniforms from Discovery for them and the outfits. They should then make the starting races for them. Klingon, Trill and Orion's. I think one of them wants to but they didn't have the time. I can see why they have so much to work on and have so little devs to do it with. Which is why Age of Discovery is being released into three or four parts. I noted they updated the Klingons adding in different regular human faces, and they added them to the character creation point of the game. Maybe making room for future Klingon Customization options. Which I'm hoping the update for the races and the adding in of some of the discovery races as well as customization options from discovery like the eye and facial implant seen on Keyla Detmer will make it in in January with a couple of new missions. But we don't know what to expect till they release more Info hopefully around Christmas Time but more then likely we won't see any information on it till next year.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    What I think they are doing is adding in discovery content for the discovery faction while also adding in maybe the klingon content. Knowing them they are most likely not adding a Klingon Discovery faction. They could maybe add In both Aenar and Andorians but I do not think they will do the Aenar they would maybe have to convince Cbs. If they were able to do so then they would just need to add the code to both. If they did decide to do a Klingon starting point which they should and have it involve the I.S.S Discovery. They could add in the Klingon Uniforms from Discovery for them and the outfits. They should then make the starting races for them. Klingon, Trill and Orion's. I think one of them wants to but they didn't have the time. I can see why they have so much to work on and have so little devs to do it with. Which is why Age of Discovery is being released into three or four parts. I noted they updated the Klingons adding in different regular human faces, and they added them to the character creation point of the game. Maybe making room for future Klingon Customization options. Which I'm hoping the update for the races and the adding in of some of the discovery races as well as customization options from discovery like the eye and facial implant seen on Keyla Detmer will make it in in January with a couple of new missions. But we don't know what to expect till they release more Info hopefully around Christmas Time but more then likely we won't see any information on it till next year.

    Don't say "Klingon Content", because that's something they most definitely will not do, call it what it is, "Klingon-sort-of-Federation content KDF players will be allowed to play."

    aka "More Cross-faction material for our Majority Players!"

    because that's what they have the budget for, it's got to be 'cross faction' or it's got to be "Discovery focused". Cryptic doesn't have staff for unprofitable minorities to get any space in the budget, and they don't have the time to have enough 'free time' to work on it on the side.

    The Metrics rule production decisions, KDF has a declining population base, and they've got to turn out results or CBS is going to be pissed at them, and might yank the license now that Les Moonves is gone, and shop it to someone with enough budget to give them the product tie-in they need to help fund more Discovery, and more important, to advertise discovery.

    Keep in mind, one of the things they're changing this year, is the appearance, because the revamped Klingons in Discovery proved to be terribly unpopular, so it's exceedingly doubtful that CBS would buy off on more than a couple costume changes for KDF players, and maybe some premium ships in a lockbox-the focus is going to be on Starfleet and making Discovery's version more palatable or at least, make it look more marketable, and that means emphasizing the positive aspects-which Discovery's Klingons aren't a part of that venn diagram.

    It's the business, get it? Cryptic isn't big enough or rich enough to take those kind of risks, and the low-risk angle is to do a couple token cross-faction missions, a bunch of Discovery/Fed missions and some lockbox offerings, maybe add some more Discovery ships to the C-store, but that's really where it ends-the time it takes to make a mission, the man-hours and pay it requires, and satisfying the license holder all pretty much dictate there's zero business case for more KDF content period.



    this is all digression anyway. The subject is "Playable Aenar" and that's actually not a bad idea, but it could use some refining to make it really interesting, maybe a spectrum shift on the visuals, or something.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,327 Arc User
    patrickngo wrote: »
    Hypothetical mechanically, how would you go about limiting/opening access at points in the story?

    I mean, I can think of 'a' way to do it,b ut it would require some serious investments and possibly server changes to do it, since it would be effectively 'level locking' some of the core social areas of the game in a manner similar to Ker'rat's leveled instances.




    or something like that?
    No, that's massively over-complicating it... I was thinking more like how it works in the Romulan extended tutorial where you're stuck with using the Flotilla until you finish the mission to scout Dewa III.

    But for this the unlock would probably come from Surface Tension.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 5,321 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    No, that's massively over-complicating it... I was thinking more like how it works in the Romulan extended tutorial where you're stuck with using the Flotilla until you finish the mission to scout Dewa III.

    But for this the unlock would probably come from Surface Tension.
    This sounds reasonable.

    Though I suspect the fact there would be nothing for the player to do on the other faction's homeworld makes this a fairly low priority for the devs. That and its only been like 6-7 months since the treaty was made in-game time, so there wouldn't be THAT many on each other's homeworlds yet to begin with.
    Interestingly, there are signs that the devs were considering making Acamarians and Suliban playable races for the Romulan Republic faction, but changed their minds for much the same reason as the Jem'Hadar story.
    Yeah, Suliban share a good amount of historical parallels to the Romulans, which would make them logical allies of the Republic in a higher level reasoning. There are a few other races in Trek canon the Romulans were known to hire for various operations that could also be added. But none of them would make sense with the Romulan Republic story.

    Same thing with the Dominion as you mention. Changelings, Vorta, Dosi, Karemma, T-Rogoran, Yaderans, are all part of the Dominion, but none of them would hake sense because of the way the Dominion is structured, with Jem'Hadar being the army of the Dominion, and every species under it.
  • xyquarzexyquarze Member Posts: 1,834 Arc User
    No, that's massively over-complicating it... I was thinking more like how it works in the Romulan extended tutorial where you're stuck with using the Flotilla until you finish the mission to scout Dewa III.

    But for this the unlock would probably come from Surface Tension.

    That would leave us with the issue of Klingons roaming ESD in plain sight for low level characters who are at war with them.
    warpangel wrote: »
    Do you see how incredibly racist that sounds?

    Yes I do see that and noticed it while writing. However, while I do think that the idea of "keeping politics out of entertainment" is silly in and of itself, since every inclusion as well as exclusion of topics is inherently political (we had that discussion with the two klingon girls during House of Pegh - saying "I don't want them to be included, keep politics out of this" is inherently also political, thus making the argument somewhat invalid), I do not think that every issue needs to be addressed in every aspect, because the main point is to make a story work.

    And one thing that can be different in fantasy/scifi settings is having significantly differing abilities between different people which even with intra-species variance will still hold up strongly, and saying Ents are stronger than Hobbits wouldn't be racist but a correct observation. This is one thing these genres can do that realistic human stories can't: explore what would be and happen if different species really have different strengths and weaknesses. But yeah, all this can be construed as over the top with always mining dwarves and always swearing Tellarites and always-heroes-due-to-their-inherent-variability humans.

    As for the Krogan: yes, he calls this out. But apart from the Tuchanka scientist, who is somewhat un-Krogan, he is the only one not wearing the Krogan hat. Granted, ME handles other species better (especially the Geth in 2 and 3, but Turians and Quarians also work, Asari not so much) but as much as I liked both Wrex and Grunt (and the tank-bred Krogan you meed on Grunts recruitment mission as a throwaway) they do enforce the stereotypes all the way. Eve makes it change a little, but it still holds up for males, and in Andromeda even the females tend to fall more under the hat than before. So nope, in general Krogans are portrayed wearing hats, and one fig leaf doesn't really change the dress code.
    My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,041 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    xyquarze wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    Do you see how incredibly racist that sounds?

    Yes I do see that and noticed it while writing. However, while I do think that the idea of "keeping politics out of entertainment" is silly in and of itself, since every inclusion as well as exclusion of topics is inherently political (we had that discussion with the two klingon girls during House of Pegh - saying "I don't want them to be included, keep politics out of this" is inherently also political, thus making the argument somewhat invalid), I do not think that every issue needs to be addressed in every aspect, because the main point is to make a story work.

    And one thing that can be different in fantasy/scifi settings is having significantly differing abilities between different people which even with intra-species variance will still hold up strongly, and saying Ents are stronger than Hobbits wouldn't be racist but a correct observation. This is one thing these genres can do that realistic human stories can't: explore what would be and happen if different species really have different strengths and weaknesses. But yeah, all this can be construed as over the top with always mining dwarves and always swearing Tellarites and always-heroes-due-to-their-inherent-variability humans.
    Aliens being different, or more different than real human groups, is not a problem. What is a problem is the suggestion that people who are not like us are not individuals with free will, their own thoughts and opinions and capable of making their own choices.

    That's something that shouldn't be promoted, regardless of what factors real or fictional are used to decide what counts as "like us."
    As for the Krogan: yes, he calls this out. But apart from the Tuchanka scientist, who is somewhat un-Krogan, he is the only one not wearing the Krogan hat. Granted, ME handles other species better (especially the Geth in 2 and 3, but Turians and Quarians also work, Asari not so much) but as much as I liked both Wrex and Grunt (and the tank-bred Krogan you meed on Grunts recruitment mission as a throwaway) they do enforce the stereotypes all the way. Eve makes it change a little, but it still holds up for males, and in Andromeda even the females tend to fall more under the hat than before. So nope, in general Krogans are portrayed wearing hats, and one fig leaf doesn't really change the dress code.
    Yes, most of the krogan we meet in the game try to shoot us. But then most of all species we meet in the game try to shoot us, it's a shooter game. We meet and interact with characters involved in fighting in some way.

    This is much the way the "hats" in most science fiction work. Not necessarily that <insert race here> are all evil, violent barbarians, but that the barbarians are the ones we see because the plot is driven by conflict. Especially for the "bad" races who get mostly non-speaking roles as "nameless evil mook #371."

    EDIT: To bring this back on topic, my point is that just because the group of aenar we saw in Enterprise were isolationist doesn't mean that all aenar ever are compelled to be the same. And that even if they were, it would be because they chose to follow their ancestors' teachings, not because they were unable to choose at all. Thus any claim that it doesn't "make sense" one of them could choose to join Starfleet and thus become a player character, is baseless.
  • patrickngopatrickngo Member Posts: 9,757 Arc User
    warpangel wrote: »
    xyquarze wrote: »
    warpangel wrote: »
    Do you see how incredibly racist that sounds?

    Yes I do see that and noticed it while writing. However, while I do think that the idea of "keeping politics out of entertainment" is silly in and of itself, since every inclusion as well as exclusion of topics is inherently political (we had that discussion with the two klingon girls during House of Pegh - saying "I don't want them to be included, keep politics out of this" is inherently also political, thus making the argument somewhat invalid), I do not think that every issue needs to be addressed in every aspect, because the main point is to make a story work.

    And one thing that can be different in fantasy/scifi settings is having significantly differing abilities between different people which even with intra-species variance will still hold up strongly, and saying Ents are stronger than Hobbits wouldn't be racist but a correct observation. This is one thing these genres can do that realistic human stories can't: explore what would be and happen if different species really have different strengths and weaknesses. But yeah, all this can be construed as over the top with always mining dwarves and always swearing Tellarites and always-heroes-due-to-their-inherent-variability humans.
    Aliens being different, or more different than real human groups, is not a problem. What is a problem is the suggestion that people who are not like us are not individuals with free will, their own thoughts and opinions and capable of making their own choices.

    That's something that shouldn't be promoted, regardless of what factors real or fictional are used to decide what counts as "like us."
    As for the Krogan: yes, he calls this out. But apart from the Tuchanka scientist, who is somewhat un-Krogan, he is the only one not wearing the Krogan hat. Granted, ME handles other species better (especially the Geth in 2 and 3, but Turians and Quarians also work, Asari not so much) but as much as I liked both Wrex and Grunt (and the tank-bred Krogan you meed on Grunts recruitment mission as a throwaway) they do enforce the stereotypes all the way. Eve makes it change a little, but it still holds up for males, and in Andromeda even the females tend to fall more under the hat than before. So nope, in general Krogans are portrayed wearing hats, and one fig leaf doesn't really change the dress code.
    Yes, most of the krogan we meet in the game try to shoot us. But then most of all species we meet in the game try to shoot us, it's a shooter game. We meet and interact with characters involved in fighting in some way.

    This is much the way the "hats" in most science fiction work. Not necessarily that <insert race here> are all evil, violent barbarians, but that the barbarians are the ones we see because the plot is driven by conflict. Especially for the "bad" races who get mostly non-speaking roles as "nameless evil mook #371."

    EDIT: To bring this back on topic, my point is that just because the group of aenar we saw in Enterprise were isolationist doesn't mean that all aenar ever are compelled to be the same. And that even if they were, it would be because they chose to follow their ancestors' teachings, not because they were unable to choose at all. Thus any claim that it doesn't "make sense" one of them could choose to join Starfleet and thus become a player character, is baseless.

    Did they explain WHY a group of telepaths might want to be away from the non-telepaths though?

    I mean, depending on how the telepathy actually works from an internal user-end, I could think of a few reasons that being telepathic might also make someone desire to be away from the general, non-telepathic population just to remain, yknow, sane.

    after all, non-telepaths don't shield their thoughts, and if it's 'always on' receptive telepathy, the sensory overload could be 'mind blowing' in a very real and uncomfortable way.
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 8,980 Arc User
    > @ruinthefun said:
    > patrickngo wrote: »
    >
    > Did they explain WHY a group of telepaths might want to be away from the non-telepaths though?
    >
    >
    >
    > Does there NEED to be an explanation? Why would a group of anyone want to be away from the nons? Because they're NON! Computer people don't really want to hang around non-computer people, etc. Because they're non. They don't speak your language and just make funny noises at you and don't understand anything you're saying.

    That aside it was explained. Mainline Andorian society is a Militaristic Warrior culture, the Aenar are pacifists.
    #TASinSTO
    #IStandWithCBS
    #Discoveryrocks

  • thevampinatorthevampinator Member Posts: 425 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Well heres the thing, some say races can stick to their archtypes. But well Andorians are one of the major founders of the Federation of Planets, its Ideals are far more Aenar as it isn't a warrior culture. Aenar had to agree in order for it to come to be. If you take the two and make them subraces, Then Aenar and Andorians are both founding Members of the Federation. The thing about telepathy is you can feel a lot of things ohter people might be feeling including death, the warrioristic way of Andorian Culture might have very well have been painful for them. So they hid, and shielded themselves from it. But because of the Federation they would most likely be able to thrive away from this warrioristic society. Shran had a child with the Aenar woman who treated him. I do hope they will do something more with both Andorians and Aenar in Discovery. Maybe have a Aenar Crew Member. Or two or three. Personally I think they should have been playable from the beginning along with the Andorians in the Federation Faction, You see a lot of four founding member races at the Academy that includes Aenar which would make it five founding races but basically Aenar are Andorians too like some people have mentioned. They should have been among the races in the tos faction because they too are a founding member.
  • brian334brian334 Member Posts: 2,180 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I don't think telepathy is inherently pacifistic in nature. Larry Niven did a good job with very brutal, savage, and warlike telepaths in his Thrintun.

    As for the Aenar/Andorians: there are cultural differences and there are phenotype differences. About the same a you'd get in a Japanese and an African human. Are they really two species? Or are Aenar just pale, sometimes telepathic, and sometimes blind Andorians? The fact that they can interbred speaks strongly for the idea that they are, like humans, one race.

    If this is true, then Aenar are already in the character creator, under Andorian. Just as Japanese and African are in the character creator under Human.
  • tyler002tyler002 Member Posts: 1,383 Arc User
    As far as I know, the Andorians don't get the unique eyes of the Aenar and can't match their particular skin colour. You also don't get the special abilities innate to the Aenar (which the Bridge Officers all have).

    Meaning you're not an Aenar, just a very pale Andorian or a hybrid (like Shrans daughter).
    OIxmrux.jpg
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 8,980 Arc User
    > @patrickngo said:
    > azrael605 wrote: »
    >
    > > @ruinthefun said:
    > > patrickngo wrote: »
    > >
    > > Did they explain WHY a group of telepaths might want to be away from the non-telepaths though?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Does there NEED to be an explanation? Why would a group of anyone want to be away from the nons? Because they're NON! Computer people don't really want to hang around non-computer people, etc. Because they're non. They don't speak your language and just make funny noises at you and don't understand anything you're saying.
    >
    > That aside it was explained. Mainline Andorian society is a Militaristic Warrior culture, the Aenar are pacifists.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > consider WHY Aenar might be pacifist. Imagine what violence feels like when you're ONLY getting input from your own perspective, now imagine it when you're not just feeling what YOU feel, but what everyone AROUND you is experiencing. Imagine experiencing the death you just caused, even in a muted form, or the pain, or the anger?
    >
    > Non-telepaths don't shield their thoughts. Imagine what that must be like for a receptive telepath.
    >
    > and remember ti's not 'reading minds', it's all those thoughts intruding on your own, like being at a loud rock festival, next to the stax, with no hearing protection.

    Thats not how Aenar telepathy works according to the episode. They stated that they don't just "hear everybody's thoughts" and in fact won't listen to another's thoughts without consent. More likely, in ancient times the Aenar objected to their gift being used for warfare and became isolationist pacifists.
    #TASinSTO
    #IStandWithCBS
    #Discoveryrocks

  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    Or
    Maybe the Aenar share a bit more with the Andorians than they like to let on. Maybe they’re just as militaristic as their cousins. Maybe telepathy makes it easier. To harm with a thought. To kill with a thought. Maybe that’s why there’s so few Aenar. Maybe that’s why they are in hiding. Not to protect themselves from us...but to protect us from them.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
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