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RTFOs not so random

I have to take back almost everything positive I’ve said about RFTOs. Although the reward is still great, I keep finding myself in the same handful of ground/space TFOs. And the reward is what I’m after, but the system keeps sending me to fight the Borg most of the time. One night I must have played Swarm about 6 times in a row. Starbase 1...Then there are the ground maps.

So I stopped signing up for RFTOs. Back to the waiting game to play something.

I’ve never been a ground TFO guy, but I dedicated a bunch of resources in a ground build for most of my toons with this past Phoenix event. Gave it chance, but am still not a ground player.

End of rant.

Comments

  • forcemajeureforcemajeure Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    Keep in mind that Random Queues, even in the initial dev blog, were stated to be 'not random'. As in, people signing up for a random queue are first used to fill out any queue started by any other player. Most of the time, the queue you end up in is something that someone else signed up for specifically, and you are just a warm body to fill out the team slots.

    I've seen a fair bit of discussion stating that the queue system isn't random even beyond that, that it is in fact "You are used to fill a queue someone else has started. If no one has started a queue, you get Azure nebula." I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that this is so (as yet), but it gets mentioned a lot.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,887 Arc User
    Keep in mind that Random Queues, even in the initial dev blog, were stated to be 'not random'. As in, people signing up for a random queue are first used to fill out any queue started by any other player. Most of the time, the queue you end up in is something that someone else signed up for specifically, and you are just a warm body to fill out the team slots.

    I've seen a fair bit of discussion stating that the queue system isn't random even beyond that, that it is in fact "You are used to fill a queue someone else has started. If no one has started a queue, you get Azure nebula." I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that this is so (as yet), but it gets mentioned a lot.
    Given that there are handoff missions telling you to go play certain TFOs, it makes sense for those TFOs to get played more than others.
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  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,195 Arc User
    Omega rep queues were always the most popular. It's only natural that your experience will disproportionately skew towards "randoming" into more omega queues since more players are selecting them. The logic that leads to this conclusion is obvious and self evident.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,546 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    Little bit of a statistics PSA: "Random" does not mean that a number is being generated from a uniform probability distribution. That's simply one example of a random selection mechanism. Rather, it means that you're not making a conscious decision RE. which queue to play. Even if population trends are defining the underlying probability distribution of rTFO's, they're still random TFO's. You hit one button and the rest is down to luck, from your point of view just as if you picked a name at random (there's an underlying distribution to that too which is non-uniform.)
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  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    I'm still "on the fence" about RTFO's. Although I agree that they aren't exactly "random", they are handy for getting teams together, particularly for those TFO's that are now slotted into the story arc's.

    They definetly fill slots from those certain missions more often, which is helpful when leveling a new alt, and having to do the handoff's/TFO Intro's - I always make a point of saying "thanks" in team chat to those in obviously high level ships who suffer through things like Romulan Minefield, not sure if they care, but it seems the polite thing to do.

    But I can see where someone who is specifically chasing a certain mark type might get a bit frustrated at not getting the one they want. I guess that's the trade-off.
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  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,546 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    But I can see where someone who is specifically chasing a certain mark type might get a bit frustrated at not getting the one they want. I guess that's the trade-off.

    It's a pretty simple trade off at that. Queue for rTFO: more marks but no control over what you play. You're randomly assigned to a game that's awaiting players or to one from a list of none are available. Your ideal queuing behavior is rewarded with the bonus box but at the expense of not necessarily getting a certain kind of payout and daily. For that, queue for specific TFO's. Also do that if you care about what you're about to play next. If you keep getting swarm, Romulan minefield, or whatever is currently most popular stop grinding rTFO's and give yourself whatever change of pace is necessary. Chances are, if that's an eligible TFO your match will be filled in relatively short order. It's a very flexible system and players have very direct controls over whether they burnout from it.
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  • ussvaliant#6064 ussvaliant Member Posts: 742 Arc User
    I hate being pulled in to storming the spire. It's not a hard TFO but its the best part of 15 or so mins flying around in circles for a poor mark return when you compare it with ISA or CCA
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 5,106 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    One night I must have played Swarm about 6 times in a row.

    I am confused. Is this some figure of speech I’m not acquainted with or with or did you take breaks in between when this happened to you?

    Just asking because from all I could see the system seems to follow similar CD times as you usually would get. In partial premades I often chatted with the random(s) we encountered confirming that they were the ones triggering the respective maps. Also the size of my premade always ever influence the respective maps we landed on as 3-4 player groups more often get assigned to maps with lower traffic while 1-2 players get a higher chance at more popular ones. From what I can tell you the new system works WAI and as advertised in the blog.

    Perhaps for you it’s time to approach it from the other perspective? Line up for a map you want to play and see how nicely you get others assigned to it? It works for all but competitive PvE maps as far as I can tell.

    Sorry to reply to you like that. I love rants, I really do but RTFO does not feel like anything to rant about as we exactly get delivered what we got promised and best part is that it even works! :#
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    felisean wrote: »
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,887 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    I always make a point of saying "thanks" in team chat to those in obviously high level ships who suffer through things like Romulan Minefield, not sure if they care, but it seems the polite thing to do.
    You say "suffer", I say, "thanks for the free salvage". :p Seriously, you get bonus purple loot for first place, and it's easy to get first if you're the one guy in a T6 ship. :p
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  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,354 Arc User
    I am confused. Is this some figure of speech I’m not acquainted with or with or did you take breaks in between when this happened to you?

    The Swarm does not go on cooldown when played as a RTFO. I can confirm that. Played it 3 times in a row yesterday over a span of approximately 30 minutes.
  • casualstocasualsto Member Posts: 527 Arc User
    I like it and it's an improvement. It's a shame it can be influenced by the popular choices of queues. If 3 users queue for ISA and 2 queue for RTFO, all 5 will run an ISA, but the 2 queued for RTFO will get additional rewards.

    It's fun, rewarding and worth doing.

    I'd argue still that Red Alerts should be back. At least for once a day.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 5,106 Arc User
    szim wrote: »
    I am confused. Is this some figure of speech I’m not acquainted with or with or did you take breaks in between when this happened to you?

    The Swarm does not go on cooldown when played as a RTFO. I can confirm that. Played it 3 times in a row yesterday over a span of approximately 30 minutes.

    Lol wow, what a pain I can imagine. Guess I was just lucky so far then. :|
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,546 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    casualsto wrote: »

    I'd argue still that Red Alerts should be back. At least for once a day.

    ...but they are, Alerts are weekend events now. ;)
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  • bendalekbendalek Member Posts: 1,781 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    I always make a point of saying "thanks" in team chat to those in obviously high level ships who suffer through things like Romulan Minefield, not sure if they care, but it seems the polite thing to do.
    You say "suffer", I say, "thanks for the free salvage". :p Seriously, you get bonus purple loot for first place, and it's easy to get first if you're the one guy in a T6 ship. :p

    Well true, trash loot drops are now actually useful, and they do get the bonus box, but I've seen one or two players simply camping in corners waiting for the TFO to end, and it's normally those in T6 ships. There are always "those" types of players in any MMO I guess.

    Still, they may also be like the OP, and not be happy with getting "trash" TFO's like Rom Minefield constantly, so I figure being polite and thanking people for helping me lvl my toons is the right think to do.

    On a tangent, it's actually also a good way to "test" your newly minted lvl 30 and lvl 40 ship builds, as you can't (yet) do things like Japori, with the added bonus of getting Fleet Marks, and Dil (plus the scrap loot :smile: )
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 33,887 Arc User
    bendalek wrote: »
    bendalek wrote: »
    I always make a point of saying "thanks" in team chat to those in obviously high level ships who suffer through things like Romulan Minefield, not sure if they care, but it seems the polite thing to do.
    You say "suffer", I say, "thanks for the free salvage". :p Seriously, you get bonus purple loot for first place, and it's easy to get first if you're the one guy in a T6 ship. :p
    Well true, trash loot drops are now actually useful, and they do get the bonus box, but I've seen one or two players simply camping in corners waiting for the TFO to end, and it's normally those in T6 ships. There are always "those" types of players in any MMO I guess.

    Still, they may also be like the OP, and not be happy with getting "trash" TFO's like Rom Minefield constantly, so I figure being polite and thanking people for helping me lvl my toons is the right think to do.

    On a tangent, it's actually also a good way to "test" your newly minted lvl 30 and lvl 40 ship builds, as you can't (yet) do things like Japori, with the added bonus of getting Fleet Marks, and Dil (plus the scrap loot :smile: )
    No, I mean that Rom Minefield has bonus loot for whoever does best and as a level 50 or higher player the bonus loot for first is 2 mk12 purples. but you have to earn first, usually by applying DPS to the face of the enemies.
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  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 3,141 Arc User
    My alts love RTFO's irrespective of what I get dumped in. A little discomfort is well outweighed by the extra payout and does offset the skewed standard payouts.


    Interesting fact: Computers can't do purely random. It's a well known fact. It may seem 'random' but computers tend to follow patterns with randomization.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • abralambabralamb Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    now after playing about 200 randoms i have only been in about 12 to 14 different maps. i guess most of the STF's just are not interesting enough for ppl to want/need to play them.
  • keladorkelador Member Posts: 290 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    I do like RTF's I recently came back to the game after a few years break and there are maps that even I hadn't played in years before my break popping up lol which was fun and I remember getting ground maps to pop was always slow and now it seems to be faster which is great as Im one of those strange people that like them lol I still think ground missions need a bigger payout given they normally take more time than space.

    I've even picked missions that I wanted to try knowing that the new system would try to fill it for me!! In the past I would not even try if it wasn't a popular map.
  • bossheisenbergbossheisenberg Member Posts: 547 Arc User
    I just tried it out the other day for the first time. The first two times I got the exact same queue - Gateway to Grethor. There's nothing like getting into a random queue that no one knows how to do and people leaving as at result.
  • storulesstorules Member Posts: 2,666 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    bendalek wrote: »
    I'm still "on the fence" about RTFO's. Although I agree that they aren't exactly "random", they are handy for getting teams together, particularly for those TFO's that are now slotted into the story arc's.

    They definetly fill slots from those certain missions more often, which is helpful when leveling a new alt, and having to do the handoff's/TFO Intro's - I always make a point of saying "thanks" in team chat to those in obviously high level ships who suffer through things like Romulan Minefield, not sure if they care, but it seems the polite thing to do.

    But I can see where someone who is specifically chasing a certain mark type might get a bit frustrated at not getting the one they want. I guess that's the trade-off.


    Agreed as well.​​
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  • bubblegirl2015bubblegirl2015 Member Posts: 689 Arc User
    I have to take back almost everything positive I’ve said about RFTOs. Although the reward is still great, I keep finding myself in the same handful of ground/space TFOs. And the reward is what I’m after, but the system keeps sending me to fight the Borg most of the time. One night I must have played Swarm about 6 times in a row. Starbase 1...Then there are the ground maps.

    So I stopped signing up for RFTOs. Back to the waiting game to play something.

    I’ve never been a ground TFO guy, but I dedicated a bunch of resources in a ground build for most of my toons with this past Phoenix event. Gave it chance, but am still not a ground player.

    End of rant.

    RTFOs best design EVER and players LOVE it>>>>sarcasm detected indeed.​​
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,524 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    ruinthefun wrote: »
    bendalek wrote: »
    Well true, trash loot drops are now actually useful, and they do get the bonus box, but I've seen one or two players simply camping in corners waiting for the TFO to end, and it's normally those in T6 ships. There are always "those" types of players in any MMO I guess.
    There's likely any number of reasons for it. They could have already done every possible mark the queue offers and, faced with a penalty to their paychecks, have done what any normal monkey would do in such a situation: STRIKE. They could have been dropped into an STF they're incapable of doing anything in because they're specced for Ground, so that's basically all they can do, as you can only pick one or the other right now, as there is no way to change your configuration once you've been dropped in. You guess which one, and if you guess wrong, welp, that's all she wrote.
    Fortunately, to my knowledge most players of STO are not actually monkeys, and are therefore more than capable of playing any content we want in this incredibly easy game without "guessing" or changing configuration.

    We're also capable of recognizing that a) nobody who's opinion matters gives a rodent's posterior if you "strike" over the lack of a daily bonus and b) leaving a mission that isn't timed to-win at the mercy of pug randos is wasting your own time.
  • kaggert27kaggert27 Member Posts: 111 Arc User
    I actually think some TFO should not be included in the RTFO, therefor....

    All of these either fill up naturally, or are used for quick and done mark collection:
    Romulan Mine Field (Dilithium)
    Defense of Starbase One (Easy Marks, and currently the featured thingy)
    Red Alerts (Easy Marks/Dilithium)
    Crystalline Catastrophe (Dilithium, and easy Fleet, and Nukara Marks=Dilithium farming basically)
    Swarm (same as above)
    Azure Nebula Rescue (LAGGGGG, and sometimes glitches spawning)

    These ones should not be in for various reasons:
    Battle for Korfez (I'm assuming Teamwork, never played it, and dread that the system hiccups and throws Tier 1's into the Tier 3's RTFO pool)
    Battle of Procyon V (Teamwork, and dear god the 3rd round is killer)
    Gravity Kills (If it ever does, I might rage quit, but it requires teamwork)
    Dranuur Gauntlet (Scaling issues, and punished for this not being a 10 man TFO, unless you have one person that can DPS and control one point by themselves, you loose ground)
    Reconsider the Ground Borg missions. (The Cure Ground is a drag, I literally saw 2 leave at the start once they realized what they beamed into. If possible rework them and add a "safe ground" for some consumables to use against Borg can be purchased from an NPC for the gauntlets)

    As always there are issues where people will just outright leave some upon entering the map and realizing what they have beam/warped into.
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,296 Arc User
    If a mission can't be completed without a full team then it shouldn't be on the random list until they work in a way of allowing folk to join ones that are in progress.

    Worst one I've been in so far was a borg ground mission, can't recall the name as I avoid ground tfo's wherever possible, first time it popped and it was on console, with the awful chat setup to make things even harder in the plasma floor bit where folk who died ressed straight away and nothing could get done.

    Second to that is one I actively avoid which is the temporal one with that god awful grain effect and the badly voiced scotty, if one doesn't give you a splitting headache the other does.

    Ideally there'd also be an option to choose only space or ground but no doubt the random purist would get in a tizzy about that.
  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,195 Arc User
    I just tried it out the other day for the first time. The first two times I got the exact same queue - Gateway to Grethor. There's nothing like getting into a random queue that no one knows how to do and people leaving as at result.
    I actually got this one in random for the first time last week. It bugged out when none of the final enemies would spawn. This was a surprise since I hadn't failed a single RTFO up until then. Then yesterday I got GTG again and it bugged out in the same way again. Crazy.

    abralamb wrote: »
    now after playing about 200 randoms i have only been in about 12 to 14 different maps. i guess most of the STF's just are not interesting enough for ppl to want/need to play them.
    I've run a ton of RTFO's too and, after reading this, I was curious about how many different ones I've landed. After checking the list of available queues in game, I counted that I've been "randomed" into 25 different maps.
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  • warpangelwarpangel Member Posts: 8,524 Arc User
    If a mission can't be completed without a full team then it shouldn't be on the random list until they work in a way of allowing folk to join ones that are in progress.
    No such mission exists. Infected ground needs 3, Khitomer ground (maybe some others I forget) need 2.

    The ability to take new players to replace leavers was intentionally removed in the infamous revamp to fit in the "queue group" mechanic (not the only feature that nonsense cost us, either). I woudn't expect it to ever come back.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 1,486 Arc User
    kaggert27 wrote: »
    I actually think some TFO should not be included in the RTFO, therefor....

    All of these either fill up naturally, or are used for quick and done mark collection:
    Romulan Mine Field (Dilithium)
    Defense of Starbase One (Easy Marks, and currently the featured thingy)
    Red Alerts (Easy Marks/Dilithium)
    Crystalline Catastrophe (Dilithium, and easy Fleet, and Nukara Marks=Dilithium farming basically)
    Swarm (same as above)
    Azure Nebula Rescue (LAGGGGG, and sometimes glitches spawning)

    These ones should not be in for various reasons:
    Battle for Korfez (I'm assuming Teamwork, never played it, and dread that the system hiccups and throws Tier 1's into the Tier 3's RTFO pool)
    Battle of Procyon V (Teamwork, and dear god the 3rd round is killer)
    Gravity Kills (If it ever does, I might rage quit, but it requires teamwork)
    Dranuur Gauntlet (Scaling issues, and punished for this not being a 10 man TFO, unless you have one person that can DPS and control one point by themselves, you loose ground)
    Reconsider the Ground Borg missions. (The Cure Ground is a drag, I literally saw 2 leave at the start once they realized what they beamed into. If possible rework them and add a "safe ground" for some consumables to use against Borg can be purchased from an NPC for the gauntlets)

    As always there are issues where people will just outright leave some upon entering the map and realizing what they have beam/warped into.

    Some of those on your list aren't in the RTFO list, Korfez is elite only and thus isn't (no elite TFOs are), CC(N/A) isn't either as far as I know due being a 10 player TFO and Red Alerts are events and thus are excluded, at least outside of the event timer.
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