Don't know how many dicounts you have in ur fleet. I hope a lot cuz without them you look at some 80 mil Dil.
The word unreasonable barly scratches it.
According to devs, fleet project costs are scaled for 25 players.
80 million dil is 10,000 toon-days of refine capacity (not counting the subscriber and mine doff assignments). Assuming 25 players each playing only 1 toon that's 400 days, an entirely reasonable completion time of a 5-tier holding with the minimum target playercount.
A fleet with the max 500 toons could refine 80 million dilithium in 20 days.
The problem is not cost. It's the total lack of investment security in fleets (and to a lesser extent the disproportionately low fleet credit valuation of dilithium), which leads to players not wanting to invest.
Part of the problem is that some players come along and kiss the behind of cryptic by saying that this UNREASONABLE cost and time-frame is reasonable.
There is absolutely NOTHING reasonable about the costs. Nor the time it takes.
Don't know how many dicounts you have in ur fleet. I hope a lot cuz without them you look at some 80 mil Dil.
The word unreasonable barly scratches it.
According to devs, fleet project costs are scaled for 25 players.
80 million dil is 10,000 toon-days of refine capacity (not counting the subscriber and mine doff assignments). Assuming 25 players each playing only 1 toon that's 400 days, an entirely reasonable completion time of a 5-tier holding with the minimum target playercount.
A fleet with the max 500 toons could refine 80 million dilithium in 20 days.
The problem is not cost. It's the total lack of investment security in fleets (and to a lesser extent the disproportionately low fleet credit valuation of dilithium), which leads to players not wanting to invest.
Part of the problem is that some players come along and kiss the behind of cryptic by saying that this UNREASONABLE cost and time-frame is reasonable.
There is absolutely NOTHING reasonable about the costs. Nor the time it takes.
Some players are here to play the game, not to save time.
The killer to me is the common duty officer needs on most projects. It is nuts when you need tons of them sometimes twice in the project. i.e. 25 common science in one slot then 25 common science in second slot for the one stupid project! WTF...
I was really hoping I had miscalculated the cost of the new holding somehow but no, depending on the amount of bonuses for armada/mine we look at 52-80 mil DIL for the new thing at least. That’s just the XP progression and upgrades and does not even include the lil ships and plants and other cuties that makes you want to throw up.
That’s a lovely 2K euro endeavor with lots of niche junk unlocked in the end. I already stopped donating in 2 of the 3 fleets I’m in. Will have to check with my fleet mates in the 3rd one but given effort vs. the gain I think cryptic can stick dranuur were the sun don’t shine.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
As a fleet leader i decided to stop at T2 on fed and kdf. This costs are insane for a dieing game.
I hoped that new simulations types will increase the dificulty but also give better rewards and fleet dil. Cryptic can go to hell with with its fleets in the game were most people are casuals this prices are mad and really show that the ones that make this game DONT actually know how this game feels beside the metrics. I decided to cut my playtime about 70%, seeing this kind of disenterest from devs and inability to understant the fleet situations other than metrics.
This holding is clearly a dilithium syphon.
The goal is to decrease the tranfert dilithium towards Zen.
As result, my fleet lost other players this week, and they clearly said that they uninstall STO.
This holding is clearly a dilithium syphon.
The goal is to decrease the tranfert dilithium towards Zen.
As result, my fleet lost other players this week, and they clearly said that they uninstall STO.
I got similar responses in the communities I play in. The error is in thinking that this holding works as Dil sink. It does not if those few peeps that tended to holdings so far get demoralized over the demands this time and stop going for it as well.
We had a similar result in S13 with the balance checks when the intention of doing some good backfires and the remains of a broken queue infrastructure get pissed off and leave it dead completely.
My advice is to stop doing dranuur. Go for T2, generate some provisions. At some point in the future somebody will have a T5 colony. The services to get your stuff from there then will be offered and even if that cost a fortune then it will still be leagues cheaper than 80 mil Dil for niche gear nobody needs.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Well, if they really want a dil sink, then sell us the things we've been asking for:
* Console version of LTS
* Tokens to run any previous anniversary we missed
* Tokens to run any previous recruit event we missed
* Tokens for anything else of all the exclusivity TRIBBLE
* Tokens to run retired missions
* Tokens to create recruitment buddies
These are only recent examples and the list can be made long. Everything is already assets that are in the game or possibly stored in some old backup and giving us the option to access this for dil directly would be an efficient dil sink and it would probably increase Zen sales a bit too since some players would like to convert that to dil to access the stuff.
Renewable energy projects II : 49644 dilithium, it's crazy.
The decision was made to stop this fleet holding, too expensive.
Cryptic, you are unreasonable.
You had your chance to bring this up to tribble. MOST opted for DILITHIUM increase rather than Provisions. Now see if they are regretting this decision. If you wanted an opinon you ALL had the chance to test it. Why whine now?
This holding is clearly a dilithium syphon.
The goal is to decrease the tranfert dilithium towards Zen.
As result, my fleet lost other players this week, and they clearly said that they uninstall STO.
Sorry, but that is silly by those players. Uninstalling a game you otherwise enjoy because a completely optional extra being too expensive in gametime and possibly real time terms? I don't doubt it happened, I don't doubt you enjoyed their company and miss them, but it stays silly and should not really be an argument.
The killer to me is the common duty officer needs on most projects. It is nuts when you need tons of them sometimes twice in the project. i.e. 25 common science in one slot then 25 common science in second slot for the one stupid project! WTF...
That's nothing new, though, and seems even less pronounced than it did in other holdings (162 eng and another 162 eng or suchlike). As of now, the doff requirement seems exceedingly small to me, if compared to other holdings or other costs of this holding.
My advice is to stop doing dranuur. Go for T2, generate some provisions. (...)
I would advise to "stop doing Dranuur as if it needs to be done now in a coordinated fashion". Don't grind for it. If somebody has some dil left overs, drop them in. You will slowly advance (granted: very slowly) but not really lose out on anything else the game has to offer.
Well, if they really want a dil sink, then sell us the things we've been asking for:
* Console version of LTS
* Tokens to run any previous anniversary we missed
* Tokens to run any previous recruit event we missed
* Tokens for anything else of all the exclusivity ****
* Tokens to run retired missions
* Tokens to create recruitment buddies
These are only recent examples and the list can be made long. Everything is already assets that are in the game or possibly stored in some old backup and giving us the option to access this for dil directly would be an efficient dil sink and it would probably increase Zen sales a bit too since some players would like to convert that to dil to access the stuff.
Yeah, lol. Everyone remembers the stupid panic some people had over the provisions. You asked them to up the other costs to reduce provisions. See where it got you.
Lesson: Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.
Personally, I see the colony as a much needed new thing to do in the game and if it takes a long time, all the better for it. Though IMO the provisions would've been a more unique therefore more engaging medium for activity.
If someone leaves the game because there are too many things, optional things at that, to do in it, then that must mean they didn't really want to play the game in the first place.
We had a similar result in S13 with the balance checks when the intention of doing some good backfires
How exactly did the revamp "backfire" when only the top DPSrs, the ones who were specifically targeted, got affected by it?
You find the answer to the question in my part of the sentence you deliberately chose not to include in your quote. S13 saw the greatest decline in teamed PvE participation since October the 14th 2014.
You find the answer to the question in my part of the sentence you deliberately chose not to include in your quote. S13 saw the greatest decline in teamed PvE participation since October the 14th 2014.
Swear all you like but I really think you should include ignorance into your assessment.
That isn't an answer though, because your "answer" isn't the result of the balance pass, it was a result of the PVE queue system change. So again, how did the skill balance backfire?
I already consider player ignorance, I'm used to seeing it here, still seeing it now.
Lol yea right; given the amount of mirror AFK runs that currently form the UI for teamed PvE is not yet mastered by the community.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
You find the answer to the question in my part of the sentence you deliberately chose not to include in your quote. S13 saw the greatest decline in teamed PvE participation since October the 14th 2014.
Swear all you like but I really think you should include ignorance into your assessment.
That isn't an answer though, because your "answer" isn't the result of the balance pass, it was a result of the PVE queue system change. So again, how did the skill balance backfire?
I already consider player ignorance, I'm used to seeing it here, still seeing it now.
Lol yea right; given the amount of mirror AFK runs that currently form the UI for teamed PvE is not yet mastered by the community.
What "mastering" should the community want of the new UI?
At least for me, the inconveniences of the new UI served as a perfect reminder that most of the queues are just not worth playing in the first place.
Yeah, lol. Everyone remembers the stupid panic some people had over the provisions. You asked them to up the other costs to reduce provisions. See where it got you.
Lesson: Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.
Personally, I see the colony as a much needed new thing to do in the game and if it takes a long time, all the better for it. Though IMO the provisions would've been a more unique therefore more engaging medium for activity.
If someone leaves the game because there are too many things, optional things at that, to do in it, then that must mean they didn't really want to play the game in the first place.
Exactly...thats what happened also to PvP loser whiners as well. When Devs get involve they will extinguish any sense of sanity and break this game even further.
If i remember corectly here (can't reach the original sorce) the nerf to provisions was around 70-75 % while the increase of dil requirements was 300-350%. So tell me how is this fair and balanced ? But again players are the problem here ofcorce.
If i remember corectly here (can't reach the original sorce) the nerf to provisions was around 70-75 % while the increase of dil requirements was 300-350%. So tell me how is this fair and balanced ? But again players are the problem here ofcorce.
In case you're going for "300% is four times 75% so the raise obviously outdoes the decrease": You cannot compare percentage values like that.
(a) increases and reductions by their very nature have differing amounts - you cannot reduce more than 100%. Taking these numbers: if you increase a value by 300% and then reduce it by 75% you will end exactly where you were.
(b) they depend on the base value. If a project requires 1 doff and 1.000.000 dil, then even an increase of the former of 900% would only be 10 doffs, which nobody really would care about, while decreasing the latter by 20% would be pretty significant, as we're talking 25 man-dil-refinement-days there.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
One more thing about "percentages" that may even be remotely relevant for money spending players:
Would you rather get 25% zen bonus and pay with it at the normal price; or get no zen bonus and pay at a 25% discount? (Assuming you for whatever reason cannot combine both.)
You want the latter. Assuming free scalability of zen purchases, for a 1000 zen purchase you'd need only 7.50$ with the discount, while you'd need 8.00$ for 800 zen + 200 bonus in the former case. So 25% bonus=20% discount, while 25% discount is roughly 33% bonus.
A different example: if you have a console that increases your DPS by 30%, while your PvP opponent has one that decreases his damage intake by 30%, combined you would lose 9% of damage against him (130%*70%=91%) if both consoles are equipped compared to if none are. (Note: for your own consoles where one has a trade-off to damage it may yield the same result of -9% or it may actually result in no change since bonuses and reductions are divided into different categories and not always multiply but sometimes add).
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
The suggestion to get rid of the Doffs was on the same basis as they did with the Reputation Projects such as Elite Scorpions and Elite Tholian Widows. That was 100 Dilitium per Doff. So for example, with the T4 to T5 Sub-Holdings of the Main Starbase requires two 77 Doff inputs per level. That is a total of 15,400 Dilitium per Sub-Holding per level. That is a total of 6,930,000 Dilitium to get three Sub-Holdings from 100,000 to 250,000 or 150 levels.
Did they take that route. NO. They decided to make a Starbase HOLDING more expensive than the main Starbase. They scr*wed the pooch on this one.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
It doesn't cost any euros if your fleet plays the game and gets the stuff that way.
Anyway t5 star base was fleet ships which was a big deal, they'd better have something equally big deal for this.
My theory is fleet versions of new cstore ships with alternative spec seating, or effectively t6u stuff.
No, Tier 5 Starbase was an exterior, a Counselor, a respec contact (no longer functional) and another stage of the Duty Officer contact. Fleet ships were unlocked by the Shipyard stages in Military, and they were gradual, some unlocked at every tier.
If you're expecting something anywhere as big as fleet ships from Tier 5 in the Colony as a whole, you will be very disappointed.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
Did they take that route. NO. They decided to make a Starbase HOLDING more expensive than the main Starbase. They scr*wed the pooch on this one.
I don't see why the starbase should by definition be the most expensive. Especially judging from a story point of view, a colony will be way more expensive than the starbase. And just because the starbase used to be the main construction project, there's no reason from a story perspective why that cannot change.
From a gaming perspective I would agree, but not because it is larger than the starbase, but because it offers way less rewards/incentives to complete than the cheaper starbase does. And it comes quite late in the game's life cycle. Then again, count it as a vanity project for the fleets who can afford it. Others are not missing out on many things giving a real advantage.
My mother was an epohh and my father smelled of tulaberries
Did they take that route. NO. They decided to make a Starbase HOLDING more expensive than the main Starbase. They scr*wed the pooch on this one.
I don't see why the starbase should by definition be the most expensive. Especially judging from a story point of view, a colony will be way more expensive than the starbase. And just because the starbase used to be the main construction project, there's no reason from a story perspective why that cannot change.
From a gaming perspective I would agree, but not because it is larger than the starbase, but because it offers way less rewards/incentives to complete than the cheaper starbase does. And it comes quite late in the game's life cycle. Then again, count it as a vanity project for the fleets who can afford it. Others are not missing out on many things giving a real advantage.
It has a similar amount of actual goods available, possibly even more, since warp cores, secondary deflectors, kit frames and kit modules didn't even exist when the Starbase fleet holding was introduced. It's really only missing the fleet ships. The expense for the thing is debatable. It uses more of desired currencies, by quite a lot, even, but doesn't have things that destroy fleet credits, like DOffs do in the other holding (at least the way that most people get them) or the provisions from the smaller holdings.
Getting hung up on the word "holding" is a bit of a ridiculous semantic game. They're all holdings, including the Starbase. Replacing nearly everything in the main xp-generating projects with dilithium was definitely quite a bit too far, but the values used are right about in line with where they would have been on the Starbase if those types of projects had been similarly converted to dilthium. Look at the Starbase provisioning projects that generate 500 xp and some provisions compared to the ones for the colony, then extrapolate that comparison to the 1,000 xp projects.
This is an MMO, not a Star Trek episode simulator. That would make for a terrible game.
Comments
Part of the problem is that some players come along and kiss the behind of cryptic by saying that this UNREASONABLE cost and time-frame is reasonable.
There is absolutely NOTHING reasonable about the costs. Nor the time it takes.
Maybe Cryptic should start selling Penny Arcade's "Ultimate Time Saver X-Treme":
https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2017/11/10/a-double-edged-khopesh
https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/7e4cae/the_extreme_cost_of_the_colony_holding_1800_of/
I was really hoping I had miscalculated the cost of the new holding somehow but no, depending on the amount of bonuses for armada/mine we look at 52-80 mil DIL for the new thing at least. That’s just the XP progression and upgrades and does not even include the lil ships and plants and other cuties that makes you want to throw up.
That’s a lovely 2K euro endeavor with lots of niche junk unlocked in the end. I already stopped donating in 2 of the 3 fleets I’m in. Will have to check with my fleet mates in the 3rd one but given effort vs. the gain I think cryptic can stick dranuur were the sun don’t shine.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
I hoped that new simulations types will increase the dificulty but also give better rewards and fleet dil. Cryptic can go to hell with with its fleets in the game were most people are casuals this prices are mad and really show that the ones that make this game DONT actually know how this game feels beside the metrics. I decided to cut my playtime about 70%, seeing this kind of disenterest from devs and inability to understant the fleet situations other than metrics.
SOB vid and post is very nice and speaks truth.
The goal is to decrease the tranfert dilithium towards Zen.
As result, my fleet lost other players this week, and they clearly said that they uninstall STO.
I got similar responses in the communities I play in. The error is in thinking that this holding works as Dil sink. It does not if those few peeps that tended to holdings so far get demoralized over the demands this time and stop going for it as well.
We had a similar result in S13 with the balance checks when the intention of doing some good backfires and the remains of a broken queue infrastructure get pissed off and leave it dead completely.
My advice is to stop doing dranuur. Go for T2, generate some provisions. At some point in the future somebody will have a T5 colony. The services to get your stuff from there then will be offered and even if that cost a fortune then it will still be leagues cheaper than 80 mil Dil for niche gear nobody needs.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
* Console version of LTS
* Tokens to run any previous anniversary we missed
* Tokens to run any previous recruit event we missed
* Tokens for anything else of all the exclusivity TRIBBLE
* Tokens to run retired missions
* Tokens to create recruitment buddies
These are only recent examples and the list can be made long. Everything is already assets that are in the game or possibly stored in some old backup and giving us the option to access this for dil directly would be an efficient dil sink and it would probably increase Zen sales a bit too since some players would like to convert that to dil to access the stuff.
"-Grind is good!" --Gordon Geko
Accolades checklist: https://bit.ly/FLUFFYS
You had your chance to bring this up to tribble. MOST opted for DILITHIUM increase rather than Provisions. Now see if they are regretting this decision. If you wanted an opinon you ALL had the chance to test it. Why whine now?
Sorry, but that is silly by those players. Uninstalling a game you otherwise enjoy because a completely optional extra being too expensive in gametime and possibly real time terms? I don't doubt it happened, I don't doubt you enjoyed their company and miss them, but it stays silly and should not really be an argument.
That's nothing new, though, and seems even less pronounced than it did in other holdings (162 eng and another 162 eng or suchlike). As of now, the doff requirement seems exceedingly small to me, if compared to other holdings or other costs of this holding.
I would advise to "stop doing Dranuur as if it needs to be done now in a coordinated fashion". Don't grind for it. If somebody has some dil left overs, drop them in. You will slowly advance (granted: very slowly) but not really lose out on anything else the game has to offer.
This game has been dieing since I joined it a couple of years ago. So it may take a little longer to really die. (Cost's are still high though)
I love this idea!
Lesson: Be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.
Personally, I see the colony as a much needed new thing to do in the game and if it takes a long time, all the better for it. Though IMO the provisions would've been a more unique therefore more engaging medium for activity.
If someone leaves the game because there are too many things, optional things at that, to do in it, then that must mean they didn't really want to play the game in the first place.
You find the answer to the question in my part of the sentence you deliberately chose not to include in your quote. S13 saw the greatest decline in teamed PvE participation since October the 14th 2014.
Swear all you like but I really think you should include ignorance into your assessment.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
Lol yea right; given the amount of mirror AFK runs that currently form the UI for teamed PvE is not yet mastered by the community.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
At least for me, the inconveniences of the new UI served as a perfect reminder that most of the queues are just not worth playing in the first place.
Exactly...thats what happened also to PvP loser whiners as well. When Devs get involve they will extinguish any sense of sanity and break this game even further.
In case you're going for "300% is four times 75% so the raise obviously outdoes the decrease": You cannot compare percentage values like that.
(a) increases and reductions by their very nature have differing amounts - you cannot reduce more than 100%. Taking these numbers: if you increase a value by 300% and then reduce it by 75% you will end exactly where you were.
(b) they depend on the base value. If a project requires 1 doff and 1.000.000 dil, then even an increase of the former of 900% would only be 10 doffs, which nobody really would care about, while decreasing the latter by 20% would be pretty significant, as we're talking 25 man-dil-refinement-days there.
Would you rather get 25% zen bonus and pay with it at the normal price; or get no zen bonus and pay at a 25% discount? (Assuming you for whatever reason cannot combine both.)
You want the latter. Assuming free scalability of zen purchases, for a 1000 zen purchase you'd need only 7.50$ with the discount, while you'd need 8.00$ for 800 zen + 200 bonus in the former case. So 25% bonus=20% discount, while 25% discount is roughly 33% bonus.
A different example: if you have a console that increases your DPS by 30%, while your PvP opponent has one that decreases his damage intake by 30%, combined you would lose 9% of damage against him (130%*70%=91%) if both consoles are equipped compared to if none are. (Note: for your own consoles where one has a trade-off to damage it may yield the same result of -9% or it may actually result in no change since bonuses and reductions are divided into different categories and not always multiply but sometimes add).
Did they take that route. NO. They decided to make a Starbase HOLDING more expensive than the main Starbase. They scr*wed the pooch on this one.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
No, Tier 5 Starbase was an exterior, a Counselor, a respec contact (no longer functional) and another stage of the Duty Officer contact. Fleet ships were unlocked by the Shipyard stages in Military, and they were gradual, some unlocked at every tier.
If you're expecting something anywhere as big as fleet ships from Tier 5 in the Colony as a whole, you will be very disappointed.
I don't see why the starbase should by definition be the most expensive. Especially judging from a story point of view, a colony will be way more expensive than the starbase. And just because the starbase used to be the main construction project, there's no reason from a story perspective why that cannot change.
From a gaming perspective I would agree, but not because it is larger than the starbase, but because it offers way less rewards/incentives to complete than the cheaper starbase does. And it comes quite late in the game's life cycle. Then again, count it as a vanity project for the fleets who can afford it. Others are not missing out on many things giving a real advantage.
It has a similar amount of actual goods available, possibly even more, since warp cores, secondary deflectors, kit frames and kit modules didn't even exist when the Starbase fleet holding was introduced. It's really only missing the fleet ships. The expense for the thing is debatable. It uses more of desired currencies, by quite a lot, even, but doesn't have things that destroy fleet credits, like DOffs do in the other holding (at least the way that most people get them) or the provisions from the smaller holdings.
Getting hung up on the word "holding" is a bit of a ridiculous semantic game. They're all holdings, including the Starbase. Replacing nearly everything in the main xp-generating projects with dilithium was definitely quite a bit too far, but the values used are right about in line with where they would have been on the Starbase if those types of projects had been similarly converted to dilthium. Look at the Starbase provisioning projects that generate 500 xp and some provisions compared to the ones for the colony, then extrapolate that comparison to the 1,000 xp projects.