Question in regards to upgrade weekends, does this weekend improve quality chances any?

shadowwraith77

The reason I ask, is because while extra tech bonus is nice, but in regards to quality improvements it seems counterproductive to a degree in my testing of using superior techs vs superior experimental techs!

Tech gurus are welcome, and light refreshments are available.

And by all means Mods, move this to the R&D section at your will, as I understand this is normally where this would be asked!

mustrumridcully0

I think the first time this event was run it was an issue talked about and the devs explained that the quality increase chances would not be negatively affected. Bascially, if without the evcent you would earn enough tech points to upgrade one mark, and got an x % chance for a quality increase, you'D still have an x % chacne for that quality increase during the event. You just need half the number of upgrade kits.

seaofsorrows

Quality improvement does not improve no.

Basically, what happens is that you use half as many kits to increase mark. The increase in gains though means you get half as much opportunity for rarity upgrade causing you to use twice as many kits. In my experience, Upgrade Weekends were great for getting gear on Alts up to Mark XIV but were actually worse for rarity upgrades then just waiting until it was over. If you're going for rarity, you're probably going to end up using twice as many kits which doubles your cost.

nccmark

You have 1/2 the chance to improve quality during the upgrade weekend vs normal times. I don't try to upgrade quality during these events.

So what is the point? If you have an Epic quality item below Mk 14 (example Mk 10), now you can get it to Mk 14 for half the cost.

eldritchx

dareau wrote: »

So, it's cheaper to get to XIV. You also get twice as many "rolls" for rarity upgrades for your money once you hit XIV.

Keeping in mind, of course, that half the rolls aren't of the same quality, and are at the halfway marks between the 'regular' rolls. Eg: Instead of 5%, 10%, 15% for X amount of dil/upgrades, you would get 2.5%, 5%, 7.5%, 10%, 12.5% and 15% for the same X. It's still significantly better, however.

seaofsorrows

eldritchx wrote: »

dareau wrote: »

So, it's cheaper to get to XIV. You also get twice as many "rolls" for rarity upgrades for your money once you hit XIV.

Keeping in mind, of course, that half the rolls aren't of the same quality, and are at the halfway marks between the 'regular' rolls. Eg: Instead of 5%, 10%, 15% for X amount of dil/upgrades, you would get 2.5%, 5%, 7.5%, 10%, 12.5% and 15% for the same X. It's still significantly better, however.

It's not 'significantly' better, it's minutely better to the point of almost nothing.

Instead of filling the bar and getting a 5% chance, you fill it twice and get a 2.5% chance.. twice.

Yes, that ups your odds, because you could always get lucky on that first 2.5% chance meaning that you got the upgrade for less, but you're talking very small percentage chance. You're talking 'lockbox odds.'

I understand the math, but in practical application, the chance of upgrading rarity on upgrade weekend is effectively the exact same as it is any other time. The last time they offered this, I had some items I was saving to attempt rarity upgrade. In practical testing, I spent just as much as I would have during normal time.

Overall, yes.. you have a very slightly higher chance of rarity upgrade during the upgrade weekend. Players should be aware though, that the odds are still greatly in favor of you spending exactly the same that you would any other time. Your odds are not significantly better, they're barely very slightly better.. kinda.

ruinthefun

No it wasn't? You get the same 5% and then 2.5% completion for filling a bar that you'd otherwise get, except you're not being penalized half your TP. This specific issue was raised the first time the event was run, and the devs officially confirmed that you wouldn't lose upgrade completion % over it. So unless you're saying they lied, and that all observation that confirms the statement was falsified...

shadowwraith77

seaofsorrows wrote: »

Quality improvement does not improve no.

Basically, what happens is that you use half as many kits to increase mark. The increase in gains though means you get half as much opportunity for rarity upgrade causing you to use twice as many kits. In my experience, Upgrade Weekends were great for getting gear on Alts up to Mark XIV but were actually worse for rarity upgrades then just waiting until it was over. If you're going for rarity, you're probably going to end up using twice as many kits which doubles your cost.

Yeah, this is exactly what I suspected, and good to know someone else feels the same, and/or has tested the theory as well!

TYVM!!!

markhawkman

mustrumridcully0 wrote: »

I think the first time this event was run it was an issue talked about and the devs explained that the quality increase chances would not be negatively affected. Bascially, if without the evcent you would earn enough tech points to upgrade one mark, and got an x % chance for a quality increase, you'D still have an x % chacne for that quality increase during the event. You just need half the number of upgrade kits.

This is my understanding as well.

samt1996

Actually it's easier to upgrade rarity because you get to roll the dice twice as much. I found consoles went to epic with about 20 superior kits on average. Of course those were fleet UR consoles.

So indirectly I find it is very helpful expecially on big items that need tons of TP per roll.

dareau

This is how I understand it, using "standard superior upgrades", cause that's what I did working on my Warp Core going to UR...

A "full" Tech Point bar gives a VR a 5% chance to UR, and a 2.5% chance to go from UR to Epic. Whether or not it takes 5 or 10 books to get the full tech point bar.

So, it's cheaper to get to XIV. You also get twice as many "rolls" for rarity upgrades for your money once you hit XIV.

eldritchx

seaofsorrows wrote: »

eldritchx wrote: »

dareau wrote: »

So, it's cheaper to get to XIV. You also get twice as many "rolls" for rarity upgrades for your money once you hit XIV.

Keeping in mind, of course, that half the rolls aren't of the same quality, and are at the halfway marks between the 'regular' rolls. Eg: Instead of 5%, 10%, 15% for X amount of dil/upgrades, you would get 2.5%, 5%, 7.5%, 10%, 12.5% and 15% for the same X. It's still significantly better, however.

It's not 'significantly' better, it's minutely better to the point of almost nothing.

Instead of filling the bar and getting a 5% chance, you fill it twice and get a 2.5% chance.. twice.

Yes, that ups your odds, because you could always get lucky on that first 2.5% chance meaning that you got the upgrade for less, but you're talking very small percentage chance. You're talking 'lockbox odds.'

I understand the math, but in practical application, the chance of upgrading rarity on upgrade weekend is effectively the exact same as it is any other time. The last time they offered this, I had some items I was saving to attempt rarity upgrade. In practical testing, I spent just as much as I would have during normal time.

Overall, yes.. you have a very slightly higher chance of rarity upgrade during the upgrade weekend. Players should be aware though, that the odds are still greatly in favor of you spending exactly the same that you would any other time. Your odds are not significantly better, they're barely very slightly better.. kinda.

You are so wrong that I have to reply, really. Your misinformation is going to cost people a SIGNIFICANT amount of time/money otherwise. You really don't understand the maths.

Let's say, conservatively, that each time you fill the bar normally, your success chance goes up by 2 percentage points, and this costs you X dil/upgrades. To figure out the average number of X you will need to pay, you multiply the chance of not getting upgraded until you reach 50%.

eg: If you pay 2X, your chance of getting upgraded is 1-(0.98x0.96)= 5.92%

You'll find that you reach around 50% by about 7X (44.5%) or 8X (53.5%); let's call it 7.5X for simplicity.

During an upgrade weekend, if you pay 2X, your chance of getting upgraded is 1-(0.99x0.98x0.97x0.96)=9.1%

Those who really understand the math will recognize that this is already more than 50% higher than at regular times.

You reach 50% by around 5X (43.5%) or 6X (55.7%); again, we'll call it about 5.5X for simplicity.

At 2% per full regular bar therefore, the upgrade weekend means you pay about 2X less out of 7.5X, a 27% or so discount. That's something I call significant.


When the numbers are higher, for example when upgrading from VR to UR, I'll use the numbers someone gave about, where X gives you 5 percentage points each time.

On a regular weekend, you'll pay between 4X (41.9%) and 5X (56.4%) before getting upgraded. Call it 4.5X.

On an upgrade weekend, you'll pay between 3X (42.7%) and 3.5X (52.7%) before getting upgraded. ~3.25X

That's a 1.25X saving out of 4.5, again, around 28%.

These are just rough numbers, but you can clearly see that the savings run at 25% or more off during an upgrade weekend.

So congratulations, you can rest easy knowing that each upgrade you've chosen to do outside of an upgrade weekend has cost you around 33% more on average. Hopefully others will recognize this and avoid making the same mistake.

seaofsorrows

ruinthefun wrote: »

Say what? The % you get for each bar completed is the same with or without an event, it's just that without the event, all your upgrades only generate half TP. Therefore, it costs twice as much to complete an item without the event.

That's what I thought as well, but it's not. You don't get the chance for 'filling the bar' you get the chance per X number of Tech points. That amount just happens to be the total to fill the bar. During upgrade, it fills the bar for half the points giving you half the chance.

At least that's how it worked last time.

seaofsorrows

ruinthefun wrote: »

So unless you're saying they lied, and that all observation that confirms the statement was falsified...

Never said that, no.

I'll just let people try it for themselves. Worst case scenario is it costs the same so nothing is lost by trying, but when they did this event last time rarity upgrades cost me just as much as they always did.

I never saw any statement from the devs, not saying you lied, just saying I never saw it. I'll let people try it for themselves.

eldritchx

seaofsorrows wrote: »

ruinthefun wrote: »

Say what? The % you get for each bar completed is the same with or without an event, it's just that without the event, all your upgrades only generate half TP. Therefore, it costs twice as much to complete an item without the event.

That's what I thought as well, but it's not. You don't get the chance for 'filling the bar' you get the chance per X number of Tech points. That amount just happens to be the total to fill the bar. During upgrade, it fills the bar for half the points giving you half the chance.

At least that's how it worked last time.

But the second time you fill the bar you keep the half the chance from the first time, yielding not 2.5% each time, but 2.5% then 5% the second, and that's where your math fails.

seaofsorrows

eldritchx wrote: »

seaofsorrows wrote: »

ruinthefun wrote: »

Say what? The % you get for each bar completed is the same with or without an event, it's just that without the event, all your upgrades only generate half TP. Therefore, it costs twice as much to complete an item without the event.

That's what I thought as well, but it's not. You don't get the chance for 'filling the bar' you get the chance per X number of Tech points. That amount just happens to be the total to fill the bar. During upgrade, it fills the bar for half the points giving you half the chance.

At least that's how it worked last time.

But the second time you fill the bar you keep the half the chance from the first time, yielding not 2.5% each time, but 2.5% then 5% the second, and that's where your math fails.

I get that.

In my experience, the 2.5% 'extra' chance made no difference. I also understand that this is only a 'chance' and that some will have different experience. Just like opening lock boxes, for some people they get a ship right away, others open hundreds of boxes.. same odds, different outcome. I understand that the odds are increased, I conceded that point already. We don't disagree there, we simply disagree on what we consider a 'significantly' improved chance.

If I'm wrong, I can accept that which is why people should try for themselves. I legitimately saw no increase in rarity upgrades and was simply trying to relay that. I wasn't trying to mislead anyone or call anyone a liar. If I end up being wrong, then thank you for setting it straight. I'm going to try again this time, I have one or two items that I was going to upgrade anyway. My suspicion though is that just like last time, the rarity upgrade will cost me just as much as it always has.

I understand the math, but we all know that doesn't always equal a tangible improvement in practical application. Still, I appreciate the through explanation.

samt1996

It's been a while since I've done advanced math but if I'm correct the more TP it takes to roll an item the more helpful the upgrade weekend becomes? Reputation and fleet items for example which can take 300k or more TP.

sheldonlcooper

Just remember that it's not actually the upgrade weekend this weekend Perhaps the most important tip!

leemwatson

The Upgrade weekender grants 2 x XP per upgrade. Your Quality improvement chance IS NOT affected. You still get the same chance increase and it's not reduced ie the standard 5% increase for VR and 2.5% for UR is applied as normal (if you use the Superior Upgrade and double for Experimentals). I upgraded plenty of items last time this was on, and it was exactly this. Nowhere did it say that QIC was reduced!

shadowwraith77

Ok, to better explain my testing in regular results, and not during upgrade weekends this is some of the information I noticed!

The system relies heavily on tech points for both QI and mk improvements, however I also noted that due to the tech points having an effect on QI % chances, that at times using a standard superior tech vs an experimental can in fact cost you less.

Why you ask?

Well, in some instances, I will apply an experimental and it will show a QI % increase, but on the next use of 1 it doesn't increase the QI % any, in which case a standard superior would suffice instead costing you less dilithium & no waste of salvaged tech or experimental tech.

Now, I haven't experimented during the upgrade weekend, but based on a standard day and what you are upgrading, there are times where you can be waisting experimental tech it seems, but it is dependant on how many tech points are needed overall, and what quality the item is already + what kind of item it is in general as some items require little to fill in tech points, while others require huge amounts even though they can be of equal mk & rarity to each other!

Also, none of the testing is using boosters for tech point values or QI improvement, only base values of just the tech itself!

This is why I ask if the weekends aid in QI, as I already know the amount of tech points is increased, but it would seem from my regular testing it may or may not be at times counter-productive, if aiming for QI only.