DHC have 45 degree firing arcs. They cannot fire broadsides. They are restricted to "forward fire" due to the limited firing arc. The exception are Wide Arc DHCs which have a 90 degree firing arc, but only one can be installed on a ship. However, that still restricts them to "forward fire". Therefore, DHCs are incapable of broadsiding.
Never heard of Cannon: Fire All Weapons.
The closest would be Cannon: Scatter Volley which I believe only has a 90 degree scatter angle. Is it a level 5 ship mastery trait? If so, then only players that have bought that specific T6 starship and maxed out the mastery traits will have it as a selectable trait.
Ever heard of sarcasm?
Beams have wide arcs and low drop offs. Cannons have narrow arcs and high drop offs. Any wonder why you never hear of CSV Scimitars soloing queues?
Beams also benefit more from energy overcapping, which is likely more easily achieved now than when the beam vs. cannon mechanics were laid out.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Cannons do more DPS on average; at 5km or less; hence the sheer damage drop-off, limited firing arcs, and sheer power drain.
If Cannons are to have their damage drop-off removed, they need to also have their damage brought down accordingly, or also remove the damage drop-off from Beams.
While not mentioned in this thread, Cannons were also designed with the intention of being used alongside spike-damage torpedoes, for the usual hit-and-run strikes that both are ideal for. Their skills don't overlap the same way Torpedoes and Beam skills do.
If Cannons are to have their damage drop-off removed, they need to also have their damage brought down accordingly, or also remove the damage drop-off from Beams.
Why? I thought the whole point of this thread is that beams are (vastly) superior to cannons.
Wouldn't the point of buffing cannons be to put them on par with beams?
Beams
have better firing arcs leading to better time-on-target,
consume less energy per volley which in turn produces higher damage,
suffer from less drop-off at range,
apply damage instantaneously,
enjoy a less restrictive boff build, and
FAW can/will hit more targets than CSV - even if limiting FAW to the same arc as CSV.
If, in your opinion, reducing the range dropoff cannons suffer requires doing the same for beams, what on that list can be changed for cannons but not beams?
Because as I see it, items 1, 4 and 5 cannot, will not, or should not be changed in any appreciable manner. We won't see 180 DHCs, the non-instant damage application probably can't be changed, and the boff layout is more or less a non-issue.
That just leaves 2, 3 and 6 to change, but 6 isn't even much of a boost; as much as they should increase/remove the target cap on CSV, due to the firing arc it still won't match FAW...but that's ok.
Or maybe FAW can drastically increase power consumption? Like +50% energy cost per beam beyond the first. And add an accuracy debuff to it, or something.
What they should probably do is remove the range damage dropoff on cannons entirely. This would resolve several of the issues cannons face, while still maintaining narrow firing arcs and projectile-delivered damage.
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
Cannons do more DPS on average; at 5km or less; hence the sheer damage drop-off, limited firing arcs, and sheer power drain.
If Cannons are to have their damage drop-off removed, they need to also have their damage brought down accordingly, or also remove the damage drop-off from Beams.
While not mentioned in this thread, Cannons were also designed with the intention of being used alongside spike-damage torpedoes, for the usual hit-and-run strikes that both are ideal for. Their skills don't overlap the same way Torpedoes and Beam skills do.
Why would they need their damage reduced to compensate for the drop off? The higher damage in theory should be compensation for having a much more limited firing arc and heavier power drain.
Ignorance is an obstacle not an excuse
Let the stupid suffer
While not mentioned in this thread, Cannons were also designed with the intention of being used alongside spike-damage torpedoes, for the usual hit-and-run strikes that both are ideal for. Their skills don't overlap the same way Torpedoes and Beam skills do.
Beam Overload seems more spike damage than Cannon Rapid Fire. CRF to me is more a pressure ability than a spike ability.
DBB + torp gives two spike attacks.
If you're a broadsider you've still got BO for spike damage while you broadside.
Plus, up until the AP torpedo, DHC + torp would require splitting your consoles while Mr. FAWbulous can run all energy consoles.
This is my Risian Corvette. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Just curious, why did they limit only one DHC with the ARC mod. That was pretty stupid, since one DHC with only 45 degrees doesn't really help much for a cannon focused build. The only thing it will help with are combination builds where you have 1 DHC with that mod, and everything else is DBBs and torps.
I might waste a good mod on multiple DHCs if I could use multiple DHCs with that mod.
And even on a build with only one DHC and the rest DBBs/torps, it seems like a waste of a mod when there are better ones.
Besides, if you can get DBBs on the targets with little to no problem, then you shouldn't have a problem getting DHCs on target.
I have used both, and if I have no problem with DBBs, then I don't have a problem with DHCs. Now, something like the T5 Ambassador, or the T6 Shamshar (which is a T6 version of the Ambassador), I just run Beam arrays, becasue they are not worth trying to fool with DBBs. So, if they could use DHC, it wouldn't be worth it.
But, my Scimitar doesn't have a problem with DBBs, so I never had any more trouble with DHCs.
The way I see it, if they are not going to let you have more than one DHC with the ARC mod, then it is a wasted mod.
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Just curious, why did they limit only one DHC with the ARC mod. That was pretty stupid, since one DHC with only 45 degrees doesn't really help much for a cannon focused build. The only thing it will help with are combination builds where you have 1 DHC with that mod, and everything else is DBBs and torps.
I might waste a good mod on multiple DHCs if I could use multiple DHCs with that mod.
And even on a build with only one DHC and the rest DBBs/torps, it seems like a waste of a mod when there are better ones.
Besides, if you can get DBBs on the targets with little to no problem, then you shouldn't have a problem getting DHCs on target.
I have used both, and if I have no problem with DBBs, then I don't have a problem with DHCs. Now, something like the T5 Ambassador, or the T6 Shamshar (which is a T6 version of the Ambassador), I just run Beam arrays, becasue they are not worth trying to fool with DBBs. So, if they could use DHC, it wouldn't be worth it.
But, my Scimitar doesn't have a problem with DBBs, so I never had any more trouble with DHCs.
The way I see it, if they are not going to let you have more than one DHC with the ARC mod, then it is a wasted mod.
Because all Special Crafted R&D items are limited to 1 for each type for equipping. The R&D Lv15 SCI, ENG, Projectile, Beam, Cannon, are all limited to 1 active on a ship. On that flip side, ARC DHCs are pointless.
If DPS is your thing then DBB seem to be the way to go (just check out the DPS table available through your parser if you have one). Cannons do not even come close to what is doable with beams.
However for fun my Kumari with all its cannony awesomeness is still my favourite ship to fly, (in terms of fighter pilot feel and fun).
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
Why would they need their damage reduced to compensate for the drop off? The higher damage in theory should be compensation for having a much more limited firing arc and heavier power drain.
Exactly. Cannons, dual heavy in particular, should do more damage than any beams but require a narrow firing arc. That should be their drawback. The Defiant was powerful almost solely because of it's cannons, which would rip through targets with a few bursts.
However for fun my Kumari with all its cannony awesomeness is still my favourite ship to fly, (in terms of fighter pilot feel and fun).
Which is precisely the reason I still make sure and get in stick time on the Schwarze (a Mirror Adv. Escort). And of course Rock 'n Roll is perfect for those occasions when you want to, shall we say, communicate.
As for the debate which is the focus of this thread, I for one find it just interesting as I use both for escorts. For example, the Schwarze's forward armament consists of the Nukara hyper-DBB as well as a pair of refracting tetryon DHCs and the Omega launcher; an alpha strike (preferably cherried with Sensor Scan) consists of THY, BO, and CRF... whether TSV or CSV (or BFAW, especially given the NAM pack's complete-set bonus) is better as a 'shotgun' attack is open to debate, however.
Actually , lately I've been noticing FAW causing ISAs to fail , particularly in not high DPS groups .
One or more guys FAWing pop a supporting generator, the probes start coming while the team's focus gets split up between the cube that's still alive, the other supporting generators and the probes .
... times like that , not even a grav well can save the day ... , but you can get a "noobs" in the chat , usually from the same person whose FAW ruined the day ...
Actually , lately I've been noticing FAW causing ISAs to fail , particularly in not high DPS groups .
One or more guys FAWing pop a supporting generator, the probes start coming while the team's focus gets split up between the cube that's still alive, the other supporting generators and the probes .
... times like that , not even a grav well can save the day ... , but you can get a "noobs" in the chat , usually from the same person whose FAW ruined the day ...
FAW is just like every other ability in STO... it's just generally more OP then most... but there are times you need to know that using it is a bad, bad thing.
But people being people... ie they're generally stupid idiots who go to the forums and cookie cutter a build and expect it to work in every situation when it's "up"... have no idea...
And because they have no idea... other then they read on reddit/forums/twitter that this build was "super awesome-sauce OP with a side order of OMG-this-rocks" will have no idea that you can't use it all the time... every time... because they're clueless.
Basically it's the same story with real life and RPGs... I know friends who were saying they were in Iraq/Afghanistan and they saw someone with an RPG shoot at their convoy. They figured they were dead until the RPG bounced harmlessly off their HUMVEE. Basically the clueless didn't realize that the RPG system has a dual pin system that you need to pull both pins to arm (or something like that).
So it boils down to you can give the clueless a weapon system... but if they don't know how it works they're just going to make things worse for themselves (in the real life scenerio it generally boiled down to a lot of 5.56 ammo coming down on them).
Basically, DBBs are superior in every aspect over DHCs.
1. Better fire arc
2. Beams have less damage drop-off then cannons
3. Beams actually benefit from Weapon Power overcapping.
4. Beams will always hit more target then any number of cannons. Why? FAW makes each beam hit 2 targets, CSV caps out at 3 targets total.
5. Beams have their BOff skills set at lower ranks then cannons, allowing for TT + FAW + Attack Pattern on a ship with Ensign and Lt Tac seats, cannons do not.
6. Beams have less travel time then cannons, they're effectively hitscan weapons where cannons have to travel across the distance to deal damage.
7. Beams can be equipped on any ship, further increasing their flexibility.
Did I miss anything?
No you covered it perfectly. The only thing missing is the fun component but thats in the eye of the beholder as well I guess.
Old school cannon build escorts still provide me with a game experience I would not want to miss. :cool:
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Actually , lately I've been noticing FAW causing ISAs to fail , particularly in not high DPS groups .
One or more guys FAWing pop a supporting generator, the probes start coming while the team's focus gets split up between the cube that's still alive, the other supporting generators and the probes .
... times like that , not even a grav well can save the day ... , but you can get a "noobs" in the chat , usually from the same person whose FAW ruined the day ...
Sadly this has been my experience as well as of late in ISA pugs. FAW is a remarkable tool in this game however it takes more to use it right than just hitting spacebar blindly. Could be that a lot of players just try to copy the highest DPS build from STO academy and try to implement them the best as they can on their way into DPS channels.
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Sadly this has been my experience as well as of late in ISA pugs. FAW is a remarkable tool in this game however it takes more to use it right than just hitting spacebar blindly. Could be that a lot of players just try to copy the highest DPS build from STO academy and try to implement them the best as they can on their way into DPS channels.
Well I'm sure it has nothing to do with ISA being touted as The Place to parse your DPS ... .
FAW is just like every other ability in STO... it's just generally more OP then most... but there are times you need to know that using it is a bad, bad thing.
But people being people... ie they're generally stupid idiots who go to the forums and cookie cutter a build and expect it to work in every situation when it's "up"... have no idea...
Once upon a time ... , in a galaxy far far away we had trained monkeys that knew the 10% rule .
Then Cryptic began to sell power and the 10% Rule went flying out the window as FAW became the go to "I WIN" button to push .
Then DR came and nothing was ever the same again ... .
... your powers are weak old man ... , now I AM the FAW DPS Master ...
Once upon a time ... , in a galaxy far far away we had trained monkeys that knew the 10% rule .
Then Cryptic began to sell power and the 10% Rule went flying out the window as FAW became the go to "I WIN" button to push .
Then DR came and nothing was ever the same again ... .
... your powers are weak old man ... , now I AM the FAW DPS Master ...
You know that is not even funny. Last week i did ISA and from the time it took for the first cube/spheres i called out "let's do the 10% rule".
Surprisingly two people replied. One said ok and the other one asked what the 10% rule was. Those were the ones who actually paid attention to the team chat.
This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
Cryptic need to give canons some love. It's ridiculous that they have fallen so far behind after all the beam boosting buffs.
Has anyone had any success with a DHC Scimitar? I'm thinking about trying one out with the JHSS trait and wondered if it was worth it. (apart from just, CE of course)
Technically, the fire arc of cannons is larger than the broadside arc... It's just easier to have something beside you than it is to put something in front of you.
Cryptic need to give canons some love. It's ridiculous that they have fallen so far behind after all the beam boosting buffs.
Has anyone had any success with a DHC Scimitar? I'm thinking about trying one out with the JHSS trait and wondered if it was worth it. (apart from just, CE of course)
I found the turn rate on scimi to be rather slow so I fly it with beams. Of course it all depends on what you are facing. The patched out NWS was perfectly doable with a cannon build scim (witnessed that).
But on so many situations beams simply give you better angles for the turn rate in my experience.
Heh, the JHSS trait on the sim?
If you get your target in ur firing arc on close range it should be dead rather soonish. :eek:
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Cannons vs beams . It does not realy matter. Either system produces more than enough damage to rip through elite content if you have good gear AND know how to do it..
(Getting Expierience and good gear can be a long and painfull process though)
Current DPS numbers are mostly BS numbers due to unfocused damge, very target rich environments and some targets with imunities like the nanite transformators or the gates before their defences are destroyed.
Comparing DPS is so detached from the ingame reality its laughable.
So take the infamous scimitar fully packed with epic crtdx5 antiprotons, 30to 40% crith the best consoles etc and let it solo ISA. Fine
But that scimi could do it with csv as well.
BFAW is only dominant because its easier to do and the way of least resistance is often the most used.
Imagine an STF with 2 or 3 enemies instaed of mobs. Cannons would rule those by a fair margin.
Dont get me wrong. Enough damage is essential for advanced or elite stuff. But dont fall victim to that bs parsed bfaw dps numbers. Some targets are barely scratched and can regenerate so you can scratch them again and again raising your dps numbers.
In usefull dps cannons can still outshine beams. especialy if you can afford to be hit a few times because time on target matters alot and most toss defense out of the window in a futile attemt to dish out 2 percent more dps when they could have that dps by being a bit less squishy.
And quite often in this game killing one big thing fast is more usefull than spreading to much love all over the place.
Its a bit like on the turn radius on a fighter aircraft. Turning tight and turning fast are more often then not 2 different beasts. There is a sweetspot whre you get your nose pointed in the needed position fastest but it wont have the tightest radius possible but it conserves your energy so you can actually do somthing after the turn.
Same goes for dps in a way. Why go 50000 dps if 30000 is more than enough while being able to defend and of those 50000 only 15000 go where you need it and of the 30000 nearly everything goes where you need it.
Take weapon mods for axample. I have a cruiser with 7 crtd weapons some are crd3 some crtd2 and other mods.
Compared to one of my alts who still boasts fleet acc2dmg2 beams. The difference is marginal and this one can actually dare to do some pvp if i like to.
Optimizing if fun. But doing so on a skewed perspective, and dps parsings arent the full picture at all, is bound to give skewed results.
DBBs vs Cannons? Use both when you feel like it or use what you prefer. The actual impact both do is basicly the same if you play to their strenghts.
And dont forget one thing: to have fun.
If fun for you is to get the highest dps parsing ever,by all means do so.For that you might want BFAW and DBBs. But If your aim is to finish the mission in time and you like cannons, dont feel bad to do so, The damage those can do is, all things considered, allready far above the threshold of what realy is needed.
If one weapon type is all-round self-punishing to use, then it is no longer a weapon choice, and we effectively lose out an entire combat style along with the types of strategies and ships that made good use of that weapon type.
DHC don't feel that way to me, at least not yet, and they are fun to use and a good challenge for advanced STFs. Variety and the near-endless consequences keeps things new, interesting, and fun.
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Cryptic need to give canons some love. It's ridiculous that they have fallen so far behind after all the beam boosting buffs.
Has anyone had any success with a DHC Scimitar? I'm thinking about trying one out with the JHSS trait and wondered if it was worth it. (apart from just, CE of course)
I know that I mentioned earlier in this thread about using a forward facing Scimitar build using a combo of DBBs and DHCs. But, you can do a build with DHCs and turrets.
The only reason I went with the combo is because it helps with quicker kills.
Also, for the turn rate of the Scimitar, it helps to have 2 of the consoles that come with the bundle. The one that lets you have shields while cloaked, and the one that gives you the secondary shield. Both are really good for survivability.
Also, both of the consoles will give you the added bonus turn rate. Since you will have shields while cloaked, it will let you cloak to turn quickly, and bring weapons around to hit an enemy quickly.
Another thing that will help is using the Lt. Commander Universal station as a science station. That will let you use GW1, which can help to hold enemies.
Not to mention with this new Boff system, you can change what Boff goes into the universal station to adapt for the queue you are about to go into.
For example, you can keep a couple of DBBs in your inventory, and when you want to run with quick kills, and don't need to CC, you can slot another Tac into that slot. With a combo build of DBBs, and DHCs, you can lay waste to about anything.
I recommend using BO3 if you do that, and don't have CSV. If you are running CSV, then you of course want to use BFAW3 with it. They will both compliment each other. This also works on about any escort that has a Commander, and Lt. Commander tac station.
For the Scimitar console that allows firing while cloaked, it is not worth it. If you do enough DPS, the NPCs will see you and start hitting you, even if you are just in 10 km of them. So, there is no need wasting time on it.
If you just don't want to use the other two consoles, then I suggest putting 1 or 2 RCS consoles on the ship. Or, you can add more power from shields, or Aux to put into engines, and use reverse. A lot of times you may find that some players have a hard time keeping the DHCs on their target because they only want to go forward. However, if you put the ship in reverse, you can keep the front of the ship on them much easier in close range.
For a forward facing build that is not a quick kill build, the Scimitar is more of a sit and shoot, or use very slow forward movement. If you fly past the enemy, then it is a pain to turn 180 degrees. If they pass you, while you are slower, then you can turn to face them as they pass much better.
Hope this helps.
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Cannons vs beams . It does not realy matter. Either system produces more than enough damage to rip through elite content if you have good gear AND know how to do it..
(Getting Expierience and good gear can be a long and painfull process though)
Current DPS numbers are mostly BS numbers due to unfocused damge, very target rich environments and some targets with imunities like the nanite transformators or the gates before their defences are destroyed.
Surgical strikes + override system safeties want to have a talk with you.
Surgical strikes + override system safeties want to have a talk with you.
This. Cannons are due a few buffs thrown their way. Why, I can remember back in my day when DHC were the end all for damage. Back when STO still had that new game smell and the DOOOOM threads were still new.
Then the whiners came and the age of DHC slowly started to slip away. Then the whiners came and the age of the Escort slowly started to slip away. Which is okay, really. Science had its day, Tac/Esc has had its day, Eng/Cru had its day. Everything is in a cycle.
I just feel it's time to bring some love DHC's way. (See Defiant roasting a Bug at 50m aka point blank range with cannons. (yeah yeah I know, plot ship yada yada)
Cheers from Antonio Valerio Cortez III, Half-Celestial Archduke of the Free Marches Confederacy.
Surgical strikes + override system safeties want to have a talk with you.
Few ships can carry both abilities of them so i wouldnt generalize that statement as alot of players fly t5u or the new command cruisers.And Surgical Strikes affects both cannons and DBBs.
Override subsystems however does boost beams more if you can further overcap. Still, all it does is push damage further beyond what is neccesary. Still i consider it usefull as both can boost ships with outfitted with suboptimal gear.
But i wouldnt mind if cannons get some love. But if they do they should not only consider DHCs. dual cannons and single cannnons should get more usefull as well.
Single Cannons just are always a worse alternative to beams or DHCs.
Dual cannons still are only usefull for ships with 5 forward Weapons as more than 4 of the same weapons still sometimes mess up the firing cycle. Back in the day when crit rate wasnt so high their faster cycle could get you more crits than DHCs. But nowadays their is just no point in equipping them.
Technically, the fire arc of cannons is larger than the broadside arc... It's just easier to have something beside you than it is to put something in front of you.
I know that I mentioned earlier in this thread about using a forward facing Scimitar build using a combo of DBBs and DHCs. But, you can do a build with DHCs and turrets.
The only reason I went with the combo is because it helps with quicker kills.
Also, for the turn rate of the Scimitar, it helps to have 2 of the consoles that come with the bundle. The one that lets you have shields while cloaked, and the one that gives you the secondary shield. Both are really good for survivability.
Also, both of the consoles will give you the added bonus turn rate. Since you will have shields while cloaked, it will let you cloak to turn quickly, and bring weapons around to hit an enemy quickly.
Another thing that will help is using the Lt. Commander Universal station as a science station. That will let you use GW1, which can help to hold enemies.
Not to mention with this new Boff system, you can change what Boff goes into the universal station to adapt for the queue you are about to go into.
For example, you can keep a couple of DBBs in your inventory, and when you want to run with quick kills, and don't need to CC, you can slot another Tac into that slot. With a combo build of DBBs, and DHCs, you can lay waste to about anything.
I recommend using BO3 if you do that, and don't have CSV. If you are running CSV, then you of course want to use BFAW3 with it. They will both compliment each other. This also works on about any escort that has a Commander, and Lt. Commander tac station.
For the Scimitar console that allows firing while cloaked, it is not worth it. If you do enough DPS, the NPCs will see you and start hitting you, even if you are just in 10 km of them. So, there is no need wasting time on it.
If you just don't want to use the other two consoles, then I suggest putting 1 or 2 RCS consoles on the ship. Or, you can add more power from shields, or Aux to put into engines, and use reverse. A lot of times you may find that some players have a hard time keeping the DHCs on their target because they only want to go forward. However, if you put the ship in reverse, you can keep the front of the ship on them much easier in close range.
For a forward facing build that is not a quick kill build, the Scimitar is more of a sit and shoot, or use very slow forward movement. If you fly past the enemy, then it is a pain to turn 180 degrees. If they pass you, while you are slower, then you can turn to face them as they pass much better.
Hope this helps.
Good advice, thank you.
In this case I stayed with the cannon build, as I wanted to get the most out of the Go for the Kill trait. I dont have much leeway on consoles as; my eng and sci slots are full of unique consoles, but there are some good turn bonuses in there.
The trait and cannons was an awesome combination, (shame its getting fixed today), just about everything melted in seconds, but it took a bit of adjustment to shoot things one at a time instead of all at once. You have to think about what to target first then select it, sometimes changing targets before they are dead when you see torpedo spreads inbound.
Not having used the Scimitar for a while, I had a few bad moments, over flying the target a coupe of times, one crash into a gate (having to hit the EM button 3 times before it worked didnt help, thanks for that one, Cryptic).
Reverse was my constant friend, ok so after a while I lost some power, but at least the guns keep firing.
Its still very squishy, and hard to fly against fast movers but the damage potential is a joy, particularly the decloak alpha.
In summary: I will put this toon back into the JHSS, I already have another toon on a beam Scimitar who is probably more effective overall. But it sure was a lot of fun for one night (trait fix incoming).
Comments
Ever heard of sarcasm?
Beams have wide arcs and low drop offs. Cannons have narrow arcs and high drop offs. Any wonder why you never hear of CSV Scimitars soloing queues?
Beams also benefit more from energy overcapping, which is likely more easily achieved now than when the beam vs. cannon mechanics were laid out.
If Cannons are to have their damage drop-off removed, they need to also have their damage brought down accordingly, or also remove the damage drop-off from Beams.
While not mentioned in this thread, Cannons were also designed with the intention of being used alongside spike-damage torpedoes, for the usual hit-and-run strikes that both are ideal for. Their skills don't overlap the same way Torpedoes and Beam skills do.
Sarcasm generally do not translate very well in forums.
However, your posts did register very high on my "troll scale".
Wouldn't the point of buffing cannons be to put them on par with beams?
Beams
If, in your opinion, reducing the range dropoff cannons suffer requires doing the same for beams, what on that list can be changed for cannons but not beams?
Because as I see it, items 1, 4 and 5 cannot, will not, or should not be changed in any appreciable manner. We won't see 180 DHCs, the non-instant damage application probably can't be changed, and the boff layout is more or less a non-issue.
That just leaves 2, 3 and 6 to change, but 6 isn't even much of a boost; as much as they should increase/remove the target cap on CSV, due to the firing arc it still won't match FAW...but that's ok.
Or maybe FAW can drastically increase power consumption? Like +50% energy cost per beam beyond the first. And add an accuracy debuff to it, or something.
What they should probably do is remove the range damage dropoff on cannons entirely. This would resolve several of the issues cannons face, while still maintaining narrow firing arcs and projectile-delivered damage.
Why would they need their damage reduced to compensate for the drop off? The higher damage in theory should be compensation for having a much more limited firing arc and heavier power drain.
Let the stupid suffer
Beam Overload seems more spike damage than Cannon Rapid Fire. CRF to me is more a pressure ability than a spike ability.
DBB + torp gives two spike attacks.
If you're a broadsider you've still got BO for spike damage while you broadside.
Plus, up until the AP torpedo, DHC + torp would require splitting your consoles while Mr. FAWbulous can run all energy consoles.
I might waste a good mod on multiple DHCs if I could use multiple DHCs with that mod.
And even on a build with only one DHC and the rest DBBs/torps, it seems like a waste of a mod when there are better ones.
Besides, if you can get DBBs on the targets with little to no problem, then you shouldn't have a problem getting DHCs on target.
I have used both, and if I have no problem with DBBs, then I don't have a problem with DHCs. Now, something like the T5 Ambassador, or the T6 Shamshar (which is a T6 version of the Ambassador), I just run Beam arrays, becasue they are not worth trying to fool with DBBs. So, if they could use DHC, it wouldn't be worth it.
But, my Scimitar doesn't have a problem with DBBs, so I never had any more trouble with DHCs.
The way I see it, if they are not going to let you have more than one DHC with the ARC mod, then it is a wasted mod.
Because all Special Crafted R&D items are limited to 1 for each type for equipping. The R&D Lv15 SCI, ENG, Projectile, Beam, Cannon, are all limited to 1 active on a ship. On that flip side, ARC DHCs are pointless.
However for fun my Kumari with all its cannony awesomeness is still my favourite ship to fly, (in terms of fighter pilot feel and fun).
"If this will be our end, then I will have them make SUCH an end as to be worthy of rememberance! Out of torpedos you say?! Find me the ferengi!".
Exactly. Cannons, dual heavy in particular, should do more damage than any beams but require a narrow firing arc. That should be their drawback. The Defiant was powerful almost solely because of it's cannons, which would rip through targets with a few bursts.
As for the debate which is the focus of this thread, I for one find it just interesting as I use both for escorts. For example, the Schwarze's forward armament consists of the Nukara hyper-DBB as well as a pair of refracting tetryon DHCs and the Omega launcher; an alpha strike (preferably cherried with Sensor Scan) consists of THY, BO, and CRF... whether TSV or CSV (or BFAW, especially given the NAM pack's complete-set bonus) is better as a 'shotgun' attack is open to debate, however.
Actually , lately I've been noticing FAW causing ISAs to fail , particularly in not high DPS groups .
One or more guys FAWing pop a supporting generator, the probes start coming while the team's focus gets split up between the cube that's still alive, the other supporting generators and the probes .
... times like that , not even a grav well can save the day ... , but you can get a "noobs" in the chat , usually from the same person whose FAW ruined the day ...
FAW is just like every other ability in STO... it's just generally more OP then most... but there are times you need to know that using it is a bad, bad thing.
But people being people... ie they're generally stupid idiots who go to the forums and cookie cutter a build and expect it to work in every situation when it's "up"... have no idea...
And because they have no idea... other then they read on reddit/forums/twitter that this build was "super awesome-sauce OP with a side order of OMG-this-rocks" will have no idea that you can't use it all the time... every time... because they're clueless.
Basically it's the same story with real life and RPGs... I know friends who were saying they were in Iraq/Afghanistan and they saw someone with an RPG shoot at their convoy. They figured they were dead until the RPG bounced harmlessly off their HUMVEE. Basically the clueless didn't realize that the RPG system has a dual pin system that you need to pull both pins to arm (or something like that).
So it boils down to you can give the clueless a weapon system... but if they don't know how it works they're just going to make things worse for themselves (in the real life scenerio it generally boiled down to a lot of 5.56 ammo coming down on them).
No you covered it perfectly. The only thing missing is the fun component but thats in the eye of the beholder as well I guess.
Old school cannon build escorts still provide me with a game experience I would not want to miss. :cool:
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Sadly this has been my experience as well as of late in ISA pugs. FAW is a remarkable tool in this game however it takes more to use it right than just hitting spacebar blindly. Could be that a lot of players just try to copy the highest DPS build from STO academy and try to implement them the best as they can on their way into DPS channels.
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Well I'm sure it has nothing to do with ISA being touted as The Place to parse your DPS ... .
... wait for it ... , here it comes : :rolleyes:
Once upon a time ... , in a galaxy far far away we had trained monkeys that knew the 10% rule .
Then Cryptic began to sell power and the 10% Rule went flying out the window as FAW became the go to "I WIN" button to push .
Then DR came and nothing was ever the same again ... .
... your powers are weak old man ... , now I AM the FAW DPS Master ...
You know that is not even funny. Last week i did ISA and from the time it took for the first cube/spheres i called out "let's do the 10% rule".
Surprisingly two people replied. One said ok and the other one asked what the 10% rule was. Those were the ones who actually paid attention to the team chat.
Has anyone had any success with a DHC Scimitar? I'm thinking about trying one out with the JHSS trait and wondered if it was worth it. (apart from just, CE of course)
I found the turn rate on scimi to be rather slow so I fly it with beams. Of course it all depends on what you are facing. The patched out NWS was perfectly doable with a cannon build scim (witnessed that).
But on so many situations beams simply give you better angles for the turn rate in my experience.
Heh, the JHSS trait on the sim?
If you get your target in ur firing arc on close range it should be dead rather soonish. :eek:
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It may not be quite so worthwhile soon, but I think I'll have a go tonight just for fun.
(Getting Expierience and good gear can be a long and painfull process though)
Current DPS numbers are mostly BS numbers due to unfocused damge, very target rich environments and some targets with imunities like the nanite transformators or the gates before their defences are destroyed.
Comparing DPS is so detached from the ingame reality its laughable.
So take the infamous scimitar fully packed with epic crtdx5 antiprotons, 30to 40% crith the best consoles etc and let it solo ISA. Fine
But that scimi could do it with csv as well.
BFAW is only dominant because its easier to do and the way of least resistance is often the most used.
Imagine an STF with 2 or 3 enemies instaed of mobs. Cannons would rule those by a fair margin.
Dont get me wrong. Enough damage is essential for advanced or elite stuff. But dont fall victim to that bs parsed bfaw dps numbers. Some targets are barely scratched and can regenerate so you can scratch them again and again raising your dps numbers.
In usefull dps cannons can still outshine beams. especialy if you can afford to be hit a few times because time on target matters alot and most toss defense out of the window in a futile attemt to dish out 2 percent more dps when they could have that dps by being a bit less squishy.
And quite often in this game killing one big thing fast is more usefull than spreading to much love all over the place.
Its a bit like on the turn radius on a fighter aircraft. Turning tight and turning fast are more often then not 2 different beasts. There is a sweetspot whre you get your nose pointed in the needed position fastest but it wont have the tightest radius possible but it conserves your energy so you can actually do somthing after the turn.
Same goes for dps in a way. Why go 50000 dps if 30000 is more than enough while being able to defend and of those 50000 only 15000 go where you need it and of the 30000 nearly everything goes where you need it.
Take weapon mods for axample. I have a cruiser with 7 crtd weapons some are crd3 some crtd2 and other mods.
Compared to one of my alts who still boasts fleet acc2dmg2 beams. The difference is marginal and this one can actually dare to do some pvp if i like to.
Optimizing if fun. But doing so on a skewed perspective, and dps parsings arent the full picture at all, is bound to give skewed results.
DBBs vs Cannons? Use both when you feel like it or use what you prefer. The actual impact both do is basicly the same if you play to their strenghts.
And dont forget one thing: to have fun.
If fun for you is to get the highest dps parsing ever,by all means do so.For that you might want BFAW and DBBs. But If your aim is to finish the mission in time and you like cannons, dont feel bad to do so, The damage those can do is, all things considered, allready far above the threshold of what realy is needed.
DHC don't feel that way to me, at least not yet, and they are fun to use and a good challenge for advanced STFs. Variety and the near-endless consequences keeps things new, interesting, and fun.
I know that I mentioned earlier in this thread about using a forward facing Scimitar build using a combo of DBBs and DHCs. But, you can do a build with DHCs and turrets.
The only reason I went with the combo is because it helps with quicker kills.
Also, for the turn rate of the Scimitar, it helps to have 2 of the consoles that come with the bundle. The one that lets you have shields while cloaked, and the one that gives you the secondary shield. Both are really good for survivability.
Also, both of the consoles will give you the added bonus turn rate. Since you will have shields while cloaked, it will let you cloak to turn quickly, and bring weapons around to hit an enemy quickly.
Another thing that will help is using the Lt. Commander Universal station as a science station. That will let you use GW1, which can help to hold enemies.
Not to mention with this new Boff system, you can change what Boff goes into the universal station to adapt for the queue you are about to go into.
For example, you can keep a couple of DBBs in your inventory, and when you want to run with quick kills, and don't need to CC, you can slot another Tac into that slot. With a combo build of DBBs, and DHCs, you can lay waste to about anything.
I recommend using BO3 if you do that, and don't have CSV. If you are running CSV, then you of course want to use BFAW3 with it. They will both compliment each other. This also works on about any escort that has a Commander, and Lt. Commander tac station.
For the Scimitar console that allows firing while cloaked, it is not worth it. If you do enough DPS, the NPCs will see you and start hitting you, even if you are just in 10 km of them. So, there is no need wasting time on it.
If you just don't want to use the other two consoles, then I suggest putting 1 or 2 RCS consoles on the ship. Or, you can add more power from shields, or Aux to put into engines, and use reverse. A lot of times you may find that some players have a hard time keeping the DHCs on their target because they only want to go forward. However, if you put the ship in reverse, you can keep the front of the ship on them much easier in close range.
For a forward facing build that is not a quick kill build, the Scimitar is more of a sit and shoot, or use very slow forward movement. If you fly past the enemy, then it is a pain to turn 180 degrees. If they pass you, while you are slower, then you can turn to face them as they pass much better.
Hope this helps.
This. Cannons are due a few buffs thrown their way. Why, I can remember back in my day when DHC were the end all for damage. Back when STO still had that new game smell and the DOOOOM threads were still new.
Then the whiners came and the age of DHC slowly started to slip away. Then the whiners came and the age of the Escort slowly started to slip away. Which is okay, really. Science had its day, Tac/Esc has had its day, Eng/Cru had its day. Everything is in a cycle.
I just feel it's time to bring some love DHC's way. (See Defiant roasting a Bug at 50m aka point blank range with cannons. (yeah yeah I know, plot ship yada yada)
Few ships can carry both abilities of them so i wouldnt generalize that statement as alot of players fly t5u or the new command cruisers.And Surgical Strikes affects both cannons and DBBs.
Override subsystems however does boost beams more if you can further overcap. Still, all it does is push damage further beyond what is neccesary. Still i consider it usefull as both can boost ships with outfitted with suboptimal gear.
But i wouldnt mind if cannons get some love. But if they do they should not only consider DHCs. dual cannons and single cannnons should get more usefull as well.
Single Cannons just are always a worse alternative to beams or DHCs.
Dual cannons still are only usefull for ships with 5 forward Weapons as more than 4 of the same weapons still sometimes mess up the firing cycle. Back in the day when crit rate wasnt so high their faster cycle could get you more crits than DHCs. But nowadays their is just no point in equipping them.
Not DC's or DHC's:
Beam Broadside
DC & DHC
Single cannons in comparison to Dual's are generally treated as badly as any cannon is to beams, nowadays.
Good advice, thank you.
In this case I stayed with the cannon build, as I wanted to get the most out of the Go for the Kill trait. I dont have much leeway on consoles as; my eng and sci slots are full of unique consoles, but there are some good turn bonuses in there.
The trait and cannons was an awesome combination, (shame its getting fixed today), just about everything melted in seconds, but it took a bit of adjustment to shoot things one at a time instead of all at once. You have to think about what to target first then select it, sometimes changing targets before they are dead when you see torpedo spreads inbound.
Not having used the Scimitar for a while, I had a few bad moments, over flying the target a coupe of times, one crash into a gate (having to hit the EM button 3 times before it worked didnt help, thanks for that one, Cryptic).
Reverse was my constant friend, ok so after a while I lost some power, but at least the guns keep firing.
Its still very squishy, and hard to fly against fast movers but the damage potential is a joy, particularly the decloak alpha.
In summary: I will put this toon back into the JHSS, I already have another toon on a beam Scimitar who is probably more effective overall. But it sure was a lot of fun for one night (trait fix incoming).