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Torpedo Boat - Is it viable?

gofasternowgofasternow Member Posts: 1,390 Arc User
edited April 2014 in Federation Discussion
Okay, for the longest time, I've been enamored with the idea of a Torpedo Boat, but I've never figured out a way to get it to work. With the changes in Rep Systems, I've decided now is the time. Before I committed to it, I went to make what I wanted on TRIBBLE, which I have recreated via STO Academy Skill Planner.

Build here.

But, doing so, I was floored by how much I had to spend just to build it like that: well over 200K Dil, 4500 Omega Marks, 15 BNPs, 1000 Romulan and Dyson Marks and 4 Voth Implants.

Now, the only thing I question is: should I make it for real? Am I gonna just waste my time building it because it's not useful or...?
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,836 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Torpedo’s boats are viable but not as good as energy boats. I am confused why you say now is the time to try with the rep changes. The rep changes only made torpedoes boats worse, but still viable.

    Don’t mix torpedoes stick to one type. Personally I like to use x2 mines in the rear with the trait that doubles mine range. The tac consoles that boost torpedoes also boost mines. You only really need x2 parts of the adapted set.

    If you are making a torpedo boat one assumes you are using torpedo tac consoles. If that is the case you should use your best tactical slots on something that matchs your tac consoles. Don’t waste FaW2 for 1 single beam. Stick Torpedo spread 2 in that slot or a mine disposal pattern.
  • emperordeslokemperordeslok Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    For PVE I've used torpedo boats of one type or another(one tac one sci) for a long time(see season 6)
    yours lacks a critical component of either type, a method to bring down shields, either via direct attack(tachyon beam) energy drain(syphon or tykens works well here as does subsystem targeting)
    Your plamsa torpedos will hit fairly hard and cause a signifigant burn but without a direct hull impact you're going to have a hard time with a lot of higher grade enemies.

    Without your actual skills in place(maybe the planner just didn't load) I can't make a good recommendation other than you need to figure out how you want to take away a ships shields
    (I'll link both my photon chaingun akira and old vesta torp boat later, the science build would carry well to your ship since it was originally for a recon science vessel)
  • solidshatnersolidshatner Member Posts: 390 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    IMHO - a Fed torp boat is a complete waste of time.

    The idea really works best if you have a Battle Cloak. Someone suggested using all of the same torp type - I highly recommend NOT doing that. You will share the same cooldown time and it will take forever to fire.

    For best results - look up builds for B'Rels and T'varos to get you on the right path. Not sure if I'd personally do it as a Fed though - Id MAYBE try it out on the Breen Raider to see how the flank bonus works out - but even then I'd be wary.

    Id try it on a Kling 1st. The bonuses you get for a 2 piece KHG set really helps.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,836 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    IMHO - a Fed torp boat is a complete waste of time.

    The idea really works best if you have a Battle Cloak. Someone suggested using all of the same torp type - I highly recommend NOT doing that. You will share the same cooldown time and it will take forever to fire.
    That is not correct. All torpedoes share the same cool down so there is little point in mixing types. The only thing mixing does is hurt DPS as you have the wrong tac console fitted. Well there are a few exceptions.

    I can hit upwards of 10k from my Fed torp boat so its not a complete waste of time.Granted I could get 20 or 30k from a beam boat version but 10k is more then viable.
  • solidshatnersolidshatner Member Posts: 390 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    That is not correct. All torpedoes share the same cool down so there is little point in mixing types. The only thing mixing does is hurt DPS as you have the wrong tac console fitted. Well there are a few exceptions.

    I can hit upwards of 10k from my Fed torp boat so its not a complete waste of time.Granted I could get 20 or 30k from a beam boat version but 10k is more then viable.

    Actually, unless I've been hallucinating in my B'Rel torp boat for a year straight - which can spike over 150K damage btw, they certainly do NOT share the same cooldown times. I use the Breen Cluster, Fleet Photon, Transphasic Rapid and Omega (sometimes Gravametric as of late) in the front - and I can fire them one after the other. If you had 4 Photons in the front (for example) you wait a LOT longer between shots. Try it out.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,836 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Actually, unless I've been hallucinating in my B'Rel torp boat for a year straight - which can spike over 150K damage btw, they certainly do NOT share the same cooldown times. I use the Breen Cluster, Fleet Photon, Transphasic Rapid and Omega (sometimes Gravametric as of late) in the front - and I can fire them one after the other. If you had 4 Photons in the front (for example) you wait a LOT longer between shots. Try it out.
    I have tried it out and you are mistaken. There is a max fire rate and all torpedo share the same cool down hence why you’re mixed torpedo fire one after the other. 4 photons will fire just as fast. Stick on two photons and one Transphasic Rapid. Fire the first photon and the 2nd photon will be ready to fire at the same time as the Transphasic Rapid.

    Well if you have the projectile doffs 4 photons is a waste as there is a max fire rate so 1 or 2 launcher will never fire. You can just about hit the max fire rate with 2 photons and 3 purple projectile doffs.

    EDIT: I say you are mistaken but I fly feds. I assume feds ships follow the same rules as KDF as I have never flown KDF torp boats.
  • solidshatnersolidshatner Member Posts: 390 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I have tried it out and you are mistaken. There is a max fire rate and all torpedo share the same cool down hence why you’re mixed torpedo fire one after the other. 4 photons will fire just as fast. Stick on two photons and one Transphasic Rapid. Fire the first photon and the 2nd photon will be ready to fire at the same time as the Transphasic Rapid.

    Well if you have the projectile doffs 4 photons is a waste as there is a max fire rate so 1 or 2 launcher will never fire. You can just about hit the max fire rate with 2 photons and 3 purple projectile doffs.

    EDIT: I say you are mistaken but I fly feds. I assume feds ships follow the same rules as KDF as I have never flown KDF torp boats.

    It follows the same rules. I just dont know where the disconnect is? So the STO Wiki is wrong then?

    (From STO Wiki):

    There are several types of Torpedo Launcher available in the game which are listed below. Each type of torpedo holds a different bonus (often referred to as a proc). The damage done by these weapons is modified by several Captain skills from the skill tables and also by other means such as Tactical Consoles. The baseline damage is dependant on the meta-level of the launcher and its rarity. For more information on the base damage done by torpedo launcher weapons, see the respective weapon type articles.

    - Photon: Highest DPS, 6.5 second reload

    - Quantum: High damage per shot, 8.5 second reload

    - Plasma: Plasma DoT, 8.5 second reload

    - Transphasic: High shield penetration, 10 second reload

    - Chroniton: Chance to debuff flight speed and turn rate, 10 second reload

    - Tricobalt: High AoE damage with disable, destructible projectile, 30 second reload

    - Hargh'peng: AoE damage, DoT on target, secondary explosion, 15 second reload

    EDIT - I know reload times are a little different than cooldowns, but still something to consider with a build and why IMO I find it more useful to mix it up. The Breen Cluster reloads ever 60 secs for ex.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 6,805 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    IMHO - a Fed torp boat is a complete waste of time.

    The idea really works best if you have a Battle Cloak. Someone suggested using all of the same torp type - I highly recommend NOT doing that. You will share the same cooldown time and it will take forever to fire.

    For best results - look up builds for B'Rels and T'varos to get you on the right path. Not sure if I'd personally do it as a Fed though - Id MAYBE try it out on the Breen Raider to see how the flank bonus works out - but even then I'd be wary.

    Id try it on a Kling 1st. The bonuses you get for a 2 piece KHG set really helps.

    It's a particularly viable set for the federation on science vessels. GW, unleash harpeng, gravemetric torpedo (TS or HY depending on your preference) and Cluster torpedo.

    Combine it with the elachi black hole (don't remember the name) and/or Spatial charges.

    In the rear you can add what you like, but often people use Kinetic Cutting Beam.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • emperordeslokemperordeslok Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think the disconect here is that there is a global torpedo cooldown(something like 1 second) regardless of type(I can't fire 4 torps simultaneously, but nearly so) using different torp types keeps them at that, as opposed to the same type where you need to chain proc PWO doffs.

    As a fed, in a science ship that 10k number is managable and sustainable in stf's easily enough between unshielded targets. PVP is a different monster than PVE and we need to know which he really cares about
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    When looking for torpedo boat advice, steer clear of fed forums at first and check the Klingon forums about the B'Rel, and the Romulan formus for the T'Varo. Those 2 ships are the only ones with the enhanced battle cloak which begs you to run torpedoes. Some folks still run them with energy weapons, especially the T'Varo seems to have a good mix of energy and projectile setups, but those are the two to look at first for advice.

    I've run a B'Rel with mixed and same damage type setups and done very well with them. I've run an all torpedo and even a half torpedo/ half mine setup. The breen cluster mine torpedo is boosted by mine damage or transphasic damage consoles, so it is a mine. In general, the DPS of a projectile boat is not as good as beam or cannon boats can acheive. That doesn't mean you won't have some laughably high spikes at times, so torpedoes can be made useful with the right piloting and skill. I can still do the highest DPS with a projectile boat B'Rel in a randomly joined/ pugged STF, so it isn't like it's totally bad, either.
  • darkjeffdarkjeff Member Posts: 2,590 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    We get a free Transphasic torp with the new S9 content, is that no good?
  • emperordeslokemperordeslok Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    ryakidrys wrote: »
    When looking for torpedo boat advice, steer clear of fed forums at first and check the Klingon forums about the B'Rel, and the Romulan formus for the T'Varo. Those 2 ships are the only ones with the enhanced battle cloak which begs you to run torpedoes. Some folks still run them with energy weapons, especially the T'Varo seems to have a good mix of energy and projectile setups, but those are the two to look at first for advice.

    I've run a B'Rel with mixed and same damage type setups and done very well with them. I've run an all torpedo and even a half torpedo/ half mine setup. The breen cluster mine torpedo is boosted by mine damage or transphasic damage consoles, so it is a mine. In general, the DPS of a projectile boat is not as good as beam or cannon boats can acheive. That doesn't mean you won't have some laughably high spikes at times, so torpedoes can be made useful with the right piloting and skill. I can still do the highest DPS with a projectile boat B'Rel in a randomly joined/ pugged STF, so it isn't like it's totally bad, either.

    He's playing a federation character, who better than federation science captains to help him?
  • buddha1369buddha1369 Member Posts: 391 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I run a sci captain with a plasma torp build, 2 fleet and the Omega. The Romulan torps move too slow for fast NPCs or for PvP, but it is nice against things like Borg Cubes. You can put it in the rear if you want.

    1. With a few purple DOFFs for a chance reload drop combined with the Omega to pick up the slack if the other two happen to be reloading at the same time you can fire a torp almost every second all fight long.

    2. Use torp spread instead of high yield if you use plasma. Load 2 if you can. The HY are too slow and Spread spams at least one proc on everything in range. Plus it works great clearing pets and mines, carriers will hate you.

    3. The main benefit is that you can set your weapon power as low as possible and send it to aux for your abilities or to shields for defense. Thats a good 90-ish extra power without sacrificing dmg output.

    4. Use embassy consoles to boost your burn. One proc may not seem like much but you can fire fast enough to have 6+ procs burning right against the hull at the same time.
  • nobletnoblet Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I think the disconect here is that there is a global torpedo cooldown(something like 1 second) regardless of type(I can't fire 4 torps simultaneously, but nearly so) using different torp types keeps them at that, as opposed to the same type where you need to chain proc PWO doffs.

    As a fed, in a science ship that 10k number is managable and sustainable in stf's easily enough between unshielded targets. PVP is a different monster than PVE and we need to know which he really cares about

    That's not the disconnect. The disconnect is that some ppl seem to think there's an additional cooldown other than 1 sec global cooldown (1.5 sec actual, due to 0.5 sec activation) which applies only to "same type" torps. There is no such cooldown.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    He's playing a federation character, who better than federation science captains to help him?

    The B'Rel threads are very active concerning torp builds and there is much to learn from it. Why limit someone?
  • the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member Posts: 1,421 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I've actually been doing this already. I didn't know that people considered that to be a torpedo build. Personally I like the weapons in the front and side for energy so I can beam kill shields occasionally and until the proton came out the beams just didn't sync properly to do this.

    The Item sets I used in my build

    My build's current incarnation.

    (I think I might change a couple of skills however to give me a bit more control immunity.)

    I have entire sets setup on this build not just the beam weapons because the sets themselves provide a boost to defense and to damage output without the typical need for other consoles.

    All of the torps and the energy weapons use PartGen to enhance their secondary damage so it worked out.

    Keep in mind my concerns were only for those of PVE functions. When I played the new revamped and season episode I had 0 trouble killing and defending against the new 8472 skills because the skills/doffs I had chosen actually worked in harmony to make this build work.

    They try to take down shields? Dyson took over, they tried it a second time? Borg took over.

    Of course there is one thing missing and that is that the ship I'm using still doesn't have the Secondary Deflector Array even tho those who focus on canon as much as I do know that this is due to a mistake on Cryptic CBS part for not making this game more like canon to begin with.

    With a secondary deflector this layout could be used by anyone.

    The reason I placed the Hyper in rear is due to the gameplay style I have in my ship. I keep moving, often I will flank but if I need a particularly powerful attack I move toward the enemies especially when trying to AOE because I use Anomalies alot both from the skills and from the Grav Torps I can AOE enemies down pretty quick. When I do this, I turn my rear to face them, press a minor Torpedo AOE skill and the Large Plasma Torps come out too close to the enemies for them to be taken out easily hitting almost all of them thus taking them out if any are left over.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Let me summarize some things that I gleaned from my searching the forums and other sources several months ago about torpedo/ projectile builds:

    1. The breen cluster-mine torpedo is recommended by a lot of builds.
    2. A complete or mostly transphasic set is recommended often.
    3. The Hargh 'Peng is another popular torpedo.
    4. You can mix damage types.
    5. Put the torp you want to fire first in the left weapon slot, preferably a slow reload/ big hit type like the breen cluster-mine torpedo.
    6. Put the short reload torpedoes to the right weapon slot. If it is on the left, you could potentially fire that torpedo too often and not the other torpedoes.
    7. Some torpedoes do splash damage that can affect you. Don't be too close when using those projectiles. Tricobalt, plasma, gravimetric photon are a few of them.
    8. Certain play styles work better with certain setups
    9. Some weapons are unaffected by PWO doffs for reloading.
    10. Rule 62 from the lobi store will improve projectile damage
    11. Some reward packs offer universal consoles that you could use, like the subspace induction or isometric charge.
    12. Most torp build toons are either Tac or Science for various reasons.


    A safe and general recommendation for anyone trying out a torp boat on the cheap is that you obtain transphasic tac consoles, then run the breen missions to obtain the Absolute Zero space set pieces and transphasic weapons to setup the ship to begin getting the feel of it, the weapons and how to use your abilities.

    Deflector - Cold Call
    Engine - Cold Case
    Shields - Cold Storage

    Cluster mine torp - Out in the Cold
    Rapid Reload torp - Cold Comfort

    Since the Absolute Zero set isn't great at all, try 2 pieces and supplement with better gear for what you didn't include, which is probably the deflector. In most cases, unless you want to go all-out for transphasic damage, 2 parts of the KHG/ Adapted MACO set will be more suitable for all torpedo builds.
  • gofasternowgofasternow Member Posts: 1,390 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Huh. A lot of these makes sense. Though, I think for now I'll wait and see what I can do with my KDF character, though that'll take just a bit. Still working him through the reps.
  • ryakidrysryakidrys Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Don't go KDF with torp builds just because of EBC. If you happen to have a KDF sci toon doing nothing, it might be worth giving it a try there as a starter too. One reason to try it on a KDF BOP is their universal seating. You can play around with going more science, more tactical, until you find what works for you. Then you can find that ship for your toon you really want to run a projectile build with that fits the BOFF seating you already like and feel comfortable with.
    Many posters will tell you what works for them, but you may gravitate to something a little different and it won't work well for you. Maybe you can easily adapt. figure it out and be comfortable. Unfortunately, some players won't adapt when they need to, get discouraged, and then stop playing. If my advice is flawed, it is because it is generalized, not specified for a certain play style since the play style will affect what weapons and skills to use and when.
    Whether you try out a torp build with a BOP or not, I still recommend an all transphasic setup at first to try it out since it'll be the cheap way to start out unless you already have the higher level gear. If you like projectile builds, then you can worry about the respec, what skills to use, traits, builds, etc.
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