Upcoming Double/Triple stat enchant values and HP loss

someonedies

I'm worried about total values of double and triple stat enchants.

Offensive:
Brutal, Savage, Wicked, Cruel, Vicious:
First/Second stat: 1.44%; Total:2.88%

Also HP values of double/triple stat enchants are incorrect.
Defensive:
Brutal, Savage, Wicked:
2200HP = 1.38% Main stat(Loss?), Second stat: 1.44%; Total: 2.81%

Also HP values of triple stat enchants:
Defensive:
Demonic, Draconic:
2400HP = 1.50% Main stat(Loss?), Second/Third 0.875%; Total: 3.25%
Gigantic:
1300HP = 0.81%(Loss?), Second/Third 0.875%; Total 3.44%

@terramak @commanderander @panderus @asterdahl @noworries#8859
Buff triple stat enchants HP value to Black Ice (that's correct: 1.75%, 0.875%, 0.875%; Total: 3.50%)
And buff double stat enchants overall (to 3%).

Single stat enchants do not have this issue:
Azure: 1000 defense (2.5%)
Radiant: 4000HP (2.5%)

Thanks

someonedies

Values from the official thread:

noworries#8859 said:

Overview Thread: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1234031/refining-refinement

This thread will contain the different technical numbers that are really needed to understand how the new system will look and feel. I apologize for the layout of the tables, it was what the forums would allow.

Progression Charts:

Azure: Critical Strike
Dark: Movement - Armor Penetration - Life Steal
Radiant: Power
Silvery: Recovery - Deflection

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
25	50	75	100	150	200	250	300	400	500	600	700	850	1000

Brutal: Movement - Power - Critical Strike - Defense
Cruel: Movement - Power - Recovery - Defense - Deflection
Savage: Critical Strike - Armor Penetration - Life Steal
Vicious: Armor Penetration - Power - Deflection - Life Steal
Wicked: Armor Penetration - Recovery - Defense - Movement

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
15	30	50	75	100	125	150	200	250	300	350	425	500	575

Brutal: XP Bonus
Cruel: Glory Bonus
Savage: Gold Bonus - XP Bonus
Vicious: Glory Bonus - XP Bonus
Wicked: Gold Bonus

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16

Azure: XP Bonus
Radiant: Gold Bonus
Silvery: Glory Bonus
Training: XP Bonus

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	16	18	20	22	24

Black Ice: Power - Defense
Gigantic: Critical Strike - Deflection
Demonic: Armor Penetration
Draconic: Armor Penetration

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
N/A	N/A	75	100	125	150	200	250	300	350	400	500	600	700

Black Ice: Critical Strike - Recovery - Deflection - Life Steal
Demonic: Power - Critical Strike - Deflection - Life Steal
Draconic: Power - Recovery - Defense - Life Steal
Gigantic: Recovery - Armor Penetration - Defense

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
N/A	N/A	40	50	60	75	100	125	150	175	200	250	300	350

Brutal: Hit Points
Savage: Hit Points
Wicked: Hit Points

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
100	200	300	400	500	600	700	900	1100	1300	1500	1700	1900	2200

Draconic: Hit Points
Demonic: Hit Points

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
N/A	N/A	400	500	600	700	900	1100	1300	1500	1700	1900	2100	2400

Radiant: Hit Points

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
150	300	450	600	750	1000	1250	1500	1750	2000	2500	3000	3500	4000

Gigantic: Hit Points

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
N/A	N/A	N/A	150	200	250	300	400	500	650	800	950	1100	1300

rayrdan

btw triple stats enchantments offer 40% more stats than azure (for example but it holds true for all single stat enchantments).
Since they now can be bought off a vendor and upgraded with the same costs of said azure it seems a tad much.

mightyeriksson

They really need to up the Dual-stat enchants to 615-625x2 to make them worth using, 575x2 is waaay to low...

someonedies

Demonic got a buff: 2500/1600=1.5625(%)

someonedies

Double stats still have same stats.

nirafelos

someonedies said:

I'm worried about total values of double and triple stat enchants.

Offensive:
Brutal, Savage, Wicked, Cruel, Vicious:
First/Second stat: 1.44%; Total:2.88%

Also HP values of double/triple stat enchants are incorrect.
Defensive:
Brutal, Savage, Wicked:
2200HP = 1.38% Main stat(Loss?), Second stat: 1.44%; Total: 2.81%

Also HP values of triple stat enchants:
Defensive:
Demonic, Draconic:
2400HP = 1.50% Main stat(Loss?), Second/Third 0.875%; Total: 3.25%
Gigantic:
1300HP = 0.81%(Loss?), Second/Third 0.875%; Total 3.44%

@terramak @commanderander @panderus @asterdahl @noworries#8859
Buff triple stat enchants HP value to Black Ice (that's correct: 1.75%, 0.875%, 0.875%; Total: 3.50%)
And buff double stat enchants overall (to 3%).

Single stat enchants do not have this issue:
Azure: 1000 defense (2.5%)
Radiant: 4000HP (2.5%)

Thanks

Can you explain your % numbers? What are they 1.44% of? Are you saying 1.44% to mean 1.44x (144%)?
I was at first reading the 1.44% on dual-stat enchants to mean 1.44 x single stat enchant, but your single stat enchants are listed at 2.5%, and they're not 250% anything obvious, nor are they 25% higher than R12 single stats.

I agree with your conclusion that there's some inconsistencies and that dual-stats look weak compared to triple-stats, but I'm not 100% sure I'm reading your math correctly.

someonedies

@nirafelos
"As a soft rule, 400 Points in any stat is worth 1%" https://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Ratings
1600 HP is equal to 400 points in any stat.

Values from 2 post:
Vicious, Rank 14: Armor Penetration/Power/Deflection/Life Steal: 575 Points;
575/400=1,4375 (~1,44%).

nirafelos

@someonedies aha! I was not looking at it in term of ratings, but assumed it had to do with stat distribution.

someonedies

Live enchant values (Mod 6-12) for comparison:
Single stat enchants: 700 Points (OR 2800HP); 1.75% stat increase;
Double stat: 420, 420 Points (OR 1680HP, 420 Points); 2.1% stat increase;
Triple stat: 460, 230, 230 Points (OR 1,840HP, 230, 230 Points); (Gigantic: 460, 920 HP, 230 Points); 2.3% stat increase.

nirafelos

Even now that I understand how to read your math, as a software developer, I think a more useful-to-the-developers way of phrasing the math would be:

Single stat R12: 700 stat points
Double Stat R12: 850 (up from 840 on live) stat points (121% single stat, up from 120% on live)
Triple Stat R12: 1000 (up from 920 on live) stat points (142% single stat, up from 131% on live)

Single stat R14: 1000 stat points
Double Stat R14: 1150 stat points (115% single stat)
Triple Stat R14: 1400 stat points (140% single stat)

someonedies

I'll just keep it here.

gentlemancrush said:

Hey guys, the stat curves are getting a second balancing pass. As a general rule of thumb now at level 70 all of your stats should be more competitive against each other.

As a soft rule, 400 Points in any stat is worth 1% of whatever it does (Deflect Rating into Deflect Chance for example).

Additionally, we are buffing the Cooldown Reduction portion of recovery to make it fall more in line with what its expected performance should be. Every 200 points will generate 1% shorter cooldowns (keep in mind that 100% CDR actually cuts your cooldowns in half).

I don't know yet when these changes will hit preview, but they should make statting a much simpler thing to do going forward.

nirafelos

Yeah, I'm in no way unfamiliar with the 400:1 rating to percentage math, but, the raw percentages of an item's effectiveness aren't how this game's developers design items. That's why it confused me, and also why I don't think it's the most useful way of formatting the numbers (the ratios will be the same no matter how you format them) to communicate the issue with the developers.

The issue is that Triple Stat Enchants have been buffed by 10% (which is good! They're underutilized currently!), and simultaneously that Double Stat Enchantments' stat allowance is 5% lower compared to single stat at r14 than it is at r15.

@rgutscheradev explained their item design process during one of the live streams a month or so back. If you look on their twitch feed, it should still be the most recent community tavern stream with a dev.

Basically, they select which stats they want an item to have, and then put a weight on each stat, such that the total of all of the weights adds up to 1. A Radiant Enchantment would say, "Power: 1", and a Brutal would say "Power: 0.5, Crit: 0.5". And then they can scale that item to any item level they want, and the game engine itself takes care of appropriately scaling and distributing stat points among the stats selected.

In his explanation, he openly discussed player demand for the Loyal Companion Gear from the gateway era, and explained that, basically, these items weren't compelling to players because they were interesting items, they were compelling to players because someone (mistakenly? it wasn't clear even to him) weighted the stats on them adding to 2 instead of to 1, giving them exactly twice as many stat points as any other properly designed items of their item level.

I'll openly admit -- I don't know how exactly the game engine scales the items. I don't know whether the engine is taking the Radiant's "Power: 1" and the Brutal's "Power: 0.5, Crit: 0.5" and saying, "Radiant is super specialized in one stat, so gets a penalty," or saying, "Brutal is split between X stats so gets a Y% bonus budget to distribute according to the weighting", or whether, in order to make a Brutal add up to more than a Radiant, Brutal's weighting actually says, "Power: 0.6, Crit: 0.6" to add up to 120%.

But it's likely one of or similar to one of those processes. And if the game engine is off by 5% between an r12 and an r14, that's way more useful information for them to know when being presented with complaints about the stats than just someone saying "my percentage crit gain is lower than i want"

someonedies

Multi-stat enchants has been adjusted.

noworries#8859 said:

Brutal: Movement - Power - Critical Strike - Defense
Cruel: Movement - Power - Recovery - Defense - Deflection
Savage: Critical Strike - Armor Penetration - Life Steal
Vicious: Armor Penetration - Power - Deflection - Life Steal
Wicked: Armor Penetration - Recovery - Defense - Movement

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
15	30	45	60	90	120	150	180	240	300	360	420	510	600

Black Ice: Power - Defense
Gigantic: Critical Strike - Deflection
Demonic: Armor Penetration
Draconic: Armor Penetration

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
N/A	N/A	50	75	105	140	175	215	275	350	425	500	600	700

Black Ice: Critical Strike - Recovery - Deflection - Life Steal
Demonic: Power - Critical Strike - Deflection - Life Steal
Draconic: Power - Recovery - Defense - Life Steal
Gigantic: Recovery - Armor Penetration - Defense

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
N/A	N/A	25	38	63	70	88	108	138	175	212	250	300	350

Brutal: Hit Points
Savage: Hit Points
Wicked: Hit Points

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
90	180	270	360	450	600	750	900	1050	1200	1500	1800	2100	2400

Draconic: Hit Points
Demonic: Hit Points

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
N/A	N/A	315	420	525	700	875	1050	1225	1400	1750	2100	2450	2800

Gigantic: Hit Points

Rank 1	Rank 2	Rank 3	Rank 4	Rank 5	Rank 6	Rank 7	Rank 8	Rank 9	Rank 10	Rank 11	Rank 12	Rank 13	Rank 14
N/A	N/A	N/A	210	263	350	438	525	613	700	875	1050	1225	1400

someonedies

Finally (nw-90-20170911a-4):

almondum

empowered will be 20k hp on live. read dev writing it somewhere

someonedies

almondum said:

empowered will be 20k hp on live. read dev writing it somewhere

I can't understand what you talking about. It's a bug report thread.

terramak said:

Empowered Runestone: The hit points granted by this Runestone have been increased to approximately 250% of their prior values on Preview.

• Sample values: 1,200 -> 3,000 for Rank 1; 12,000 -> 30,000 for Rank 8; 24,000 -> 60,000 for Rank 12; 32,000 -> 80,000 for Rank 14.
  
• These values are still subject to potential change, just like everything else on Preview.

Multi-stat enchantments now provide a more consistent percentage of single-stat enchantments.

We have this values on PTR right now. I'm this guy who reported this bug(1) here(2).

c3rb3r3

someonedies said:

almondum said:

empowered will be 20k hp on live. read dev writing it somewhere

I can't understand what you talking about. It's a bug report thread.

terramak said:

Empowered Runestone: The hit points granted by this Runestone have been increased to approximately 250% of their prior values on Preview.

• Sample values: 1,200 -> 3,000 for Rank 1; 12,000 -> 30,000 for Rank 8; 24,000 -> 60,000 for Rank 12; 32,000 -> 80,000 for Rank 14.
  
• These values are still subject to potential change, just like everything else on Preview.

Multi-stat enchantments now provide a more consistent percentage of single-stat enchantments.

We have this values on PTR right now. I'm this guy who reported this bug(1) here(2).

Honestly idk if this is the real value but if it is, with the right setup and how hidden OP tenebrous enchantment is (and nobody knows what i'm talking about), tanks will outdps the best current dps.

someonedies

c3rb3r3 said:

someonedies said:

almondum said:

empowered will be 20k hp on live. read dev writing it somewhere

I can't understand what you talking about. It's a bug report thread.

terramak said:

Empowered Runestone: The hit points granted by this Runestone have been increased to approximately 250% of their prior values on Preview.

• Sample values: 1,200 -> 3,000 for Rank 1; 12,000 -> 30,000 for Rank 8; 24,000 -> 60,000 for Rank 12; 32,000 -> 80,000 for Rank 14.
  
• These values are still subject to potential change, just like everything else on Preview.

Multi-stat enchantments now provide a more consistent percentage of single-stat enchantments.

We have this values on PTR right now. I'm this guy who reported this bug(1) here(2).

Honestly idk if this is the real value but if it is, with the right setup and how hidden OP tenebrous enchantment is (and nobody knows what i'm talking about), tanks will outdps the best current dps.

noworries#8859 confirmed that this is a potential bug.
but as terramak said "These values are still subject to potential change".

c3rb3r3

someonedies said:

c3rb3r3 said:

someonedies said:

almondum said:

empowered will be 20k hp on live. read dev writing it somewhere

I can't understand what you talking about. It's a bug report thread.

terramak said:

Empowered Runestone: The hit points granted by this Runestone have been increased to approximately 250% of their prior values on Preview.

• Sample values: 1,200 -> 3,000 for Rank 1; 12,000 -> 30,000 for Rank 8; 24,000 -> 60,000 for Rank 12; 32,000 -> 80,000 for Rank 14.
  
• These values are still subject to potential change, just like everything else on Preview.

Multi-stat enchantments now provide a more consistent percentage of single-stat enchantments.

We have this values on PTR right now. I'm this guy who reported this bug(1) here(2).

Honestly idk if this is the real value but if it is, with the right setup and how hidden OP tenebrous enchantment is (and nobody knows what i'm talking about), tanks will outdps the best current dps.

noworries#8859 confirmed that this is a potential bug.
but as terramak said "These values are still subject to potential change".

I really don't want this to go live because I already feel like it will result in nerfing Tenebrous Enchants which i'm investing in right now.

beckylunatic

someonedies said:

c3rb3r3 said:

someonedies said:

almondum said:

empowered will be 20k hp on live. read dev writing it somewhere

I can't understand what you talking about. It's a bug report thread.

terramak said:

Empowered Runestone: The hit points granted by this Runestone have been increased to approximately 250% of their prior values on Preview.

• Sample values: 1,200 -> 3,000 for Rank 1; 12,000 -> 30,000 for Rank 8; 24,000 -> 60,000 for Rank 12; 32,000 -> 80,000 for Rank 14.
  
• These values are still subject to potential change, just like everything else on Preview.

Multi-stat enchantments now provide a more consistent percentage of single-stat enchantments.

We have this values on PTR right now. I'm this guy who reported this bug(1) here(2).

Honestly idk if this is the real value but if it is, with the right setup and how hidden OP tenebrous enchantment is (and nobody knows what i'm talking about), tanks will outdps the best current dps.

noworries#8859 confirmed that this is a potential bug.
but as terramak said "These values are still subject to potential change".

Noworries expressly posted that it will be 20k hitpoints for the final build. Not some nebulous still-undecided value.

someonedies

beckylunatic said:

someonedies said:

c3rb3r3 said:

someonedies said:

almondum said:

empowered will be 20k hp on live. read dev writing it somewhere

I can't understand what you talking about. It's a bug report thread.

terramak said:

Empowered Runestone: The hit points granted by this Runestone have been increased to approximately 250% of their prior values on Preview.

• Sample values: 1,200 -> 3,000 for Rank 1; 12,000 -> 30,000 for Rank 8; 24,000 -> 60,000 for Rank 12; 32,000 -> 80,000 for Rank 14.
  
• These values are still subject to potential change, just like everything else on Preview.

Multi-stat enchantments now provide a more consistent percentage of single-stat enchantments.

We have this values on PTR right now. I'm this guy who reported this bug(1) here(2).

Honestly idk if this is the real value but if it is, with the right setup and how hidden OP tenebrous enchantment is (and nobody knows what i'm talking about), tanks will outdps the best current dps.

noworries#8859 confirmed that this is a potential bug.
but as terramak said "These values are still subject to potential change".

Noworries expressly posted that it will be 20k hitpoints for the final build. Not some nebulous still-undecided value.

It's a bug report thread not a overquote battle.
I really don't care about "final" values. I'm just following the road: "These values are still subject to potential change, just like everything else on Preview."
If you have any other interesting screenshots, we would like to see them, thank you.