I like to point out the differences between ESO and NW. In ESO there crates include all cosmetic related item or items you can make in game, for the most part. NW puts best mount behind a layered rng system that is not friendly. I believe the odds of al legendary mount are around 0.05% to 0.1%. Those odds are similar to winning $2500 from the lottery on a $1 ticket. Financially speaking, go buy the lottery you will have a better ROI on your purchase.
I buy keys but I am an adult and not a child and I know my financial limits. From a morale stand point, I do not like this model, but from a business stand point, it makes financial sense as long as the consumer continue to buy into it.
I honestly feel all LB items should be sold in the Zen store after making an appearance in the LB and be removed when returning to the LB.
This way, gambling is not really there and consumers will have two ways to acquire the items in he LB.
One of the BEST things they could do for this game would be this:
- Bring back the focus of DUNGEONS (they are slowly doing this it seems). - Within dungeons, drop BIS gear. With fixed "stats" but RANDOM stat VALUES.
So as an example: You run a dungeon and get a 2H Axe This sword guarantees to have the stat "Power" on it. What you dont know is what stat VALUE it will roll when it drops.
So you MIGHT end up with a drop that says: DMG: 2,117-2,613 Damage Equip: +7,578 Power Equip: +1,201 Critical Strike Equip: +1,276 Recovery
Values were RNG.
So the SAME player might run the SAME dungeon over and over in hopes of getting an "upgraded" version of the same item: (with all "perfect" rolls it would be:) DMG: 2,221-2,714 Damage Equip: +7,622 Power Equip: +1,343 Critical Strike Equip: +1,343 Recovery
This gets players coming back for more and more and more but also, is not as frustrating since each run offers a CHANCE at a slight upgrade... As you get the better and better version, it is a lower and lower chance at a better item... but its still there!
I would wager "Perfect" items would be near impossible...
This would be a FAR AND WAY better system of itemization. Get rid of "artifact equipment" as the BIS rewards. Drop these RNG Value items from Dungeons. (You could even keep artifact equipment as a thing, but merely make them equal to 80 or 90% of the max values possible on the dungeon rewards).
This would make the game LARGELY more fun to play IMO. An endless "reward" system with near infinite replayability....
Its what keeps players doing dungeon crawlers over and over and over....
One of the BEST things they could do for this game would be this:
- Bring back the focus of DUNGEONS (they are slowly doing this it seems). - Within dungeons, drop BIS gear. With fixed "stats" but RANDOM stat VALUES.
So as an example: You run a dungeon and get a 2H Axe This sword guarantees to have the stat "Power" on it. What you dont know is what stat VALUE it will roll when it drops.
So you MIGHT end up with a drop that says: DMG: 2,117-2,613 Damage Equip: +7,578 Power Equip: +1,201 Critical Strike Equip: +1,276 Recovery
Values were RNG.
So the SAME player might run the SAME dungeon over and over in hopes of getting an "upgraded" version of the same item: (with all "perfect" rolls it would be:) DMG: 2,221-2,714 Damage Equip: +7,622 Power Equip: +1,343 Critical Strike Equip: +1,343 Recovery
This gets players coming back for more and more and more but also, is not as frustrating since each run offers a CHANCE at a slight upgrade... As you get the better and better version, it is a lower and lower chance at a better item... but its still there!
I would wager "Perfect" items would be near impossible...
This would be a FAR AND WAY better system of itemization. Get rid of "artifact equipment" as the BIS rewards. Drop these RNG Value items from Dungeons. (You could even keep artifact equipment as a thing, but merely make them equal to 80 or 90% of the max values possible on the dungeon rewards).
This would make the game LARGELY more fun to play IMO. An endless "reward" system with near infinite replayability....
Its what keeps players doing dungeon crawlers over and over and over....
I would quit if this happens. I do not want to play another DCUO game.
One of the BEST things they could do for this game would be this:
- Bring back the focus of DUNGEONS (they are slowly doing this it seems). - Within dungeons, drop BIS gear. With fixed "stats" but RANDOM stat VALUES.
So as an example: You run a dungeon and get a 2H Axe This sword guarantees to have the stat "Power" on it. What you dont know is what stat VALUE it will roll when it drops.
So you MIGHT end up with a drop that says: DMG: 2,117-2,613 Damage Equip: +7,578 Power Equip: +1,201 Critical Strike Equip: +1,276 Recovery
Values were RNG.
So the SAME player might run the SAME dungeon over and over in hopes of getting an "upgraded" version of the same item: (with all "perfect" rolls it would be:) DMG: 2,221-2,714 Damage Equip: +7,622 Power Equip: +1,343 Critical Strike Equip: +1,343 Recovery
This gets players coming back for more and more and more but also, is not as frustrating since each run offers a CHANCE at a slight upgrade... As you get the better and better version, it is a lower and lower chance at a better item... but its still there!
I would wager "Perfect" items would be near impossible...
This would be a FAR AND WAY better system of itemization. Get rid of "artifact equipment" as the BIS rewards. Drop these RNG Value items from Dungeons. (You could even keep artifact equipment as a thing, but merely make them equal to 80 or 90% of the max values possible on the dungeon rewards).
This would make the game LARGELY more fun to play IMO. An endless "reward" system with near infinite replayability....
Its what keeps players doing dungeon crawlers over and over and over....
And now again with the knowledge that you need a key for every chest you have to open for an item. P.S.: I dont like "ideas" from other games...sry
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svenisperfectMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 40Arc User
edited May 2017
I feel like people tend to forget that you can actually get all of the currency (even premium zen currency) by just playing the game. Sure it will take some effort to convert an amount of time (represented by astral diamonds) into a lockbox key but its not entirely out of reach.
With the discount coupons you can get a key for about 85 zen if I recall. This will require two things. 1) the patience to postpone the purchase of a key so that you can get it at a lower cost. 2) you will need an average of 42500 astral diamonds assuming an AD to ZEN convert ratio of the maximum of 500 for 1 ZEN.
Now you could go two ways with this, you could farm/grind your head off and try to get the maximum amount of rough astral diamonds a day, which is 36000. So that will get you a potential key once every 2 days.
More realistically you could set the goal at a key a week. You can easily get 42500 astral diamonds by doing stuff like a lvl 70 skirmish once a day, supplemented by the weekly quests of various campaigns. Its not impossible.
Now the problem with society nowadays and the gaming community in general that it's too focused on "instant gratification". There lies your problem. People do not want to set longer term goals, or actually take a bit longer to get a certain thing. This is especially true when there is an easier path presented.
That lockboxes and zen purchases are in the daily pop up window for character login is kind of a no-brainer. Developing and maintaining the game costs money. People that don't mind supporting the game will do so and showing different things that you can spend your money on is perfectly normal for free to play games nowadays. As much as they like you to play the game, developers still got to eat and pay their bills too (preferably server bills first).
Now as to the argument that lockboxes are gambling and that its really disappointing to not get the shiny mount on opening. You may have noticed the certain currency you get from lockboxes called trade bars. This is made to offset the fact that the RNG can be pretty terrible. The trade bar merchant sells most of the mounts and artefacts that have been promoted in lockboxes gone by. Especially those purple mounts have a normalised version of their legendary counter parts. This is to make it more accessible while also guaranteeing that the legendary mounts are still the pinnacle of what you could get. Does this make the legendary stuff a necessity? I say no. It makes it easier, and certainly a very good long term goal to aim for. End game is just that, the end of the game, the top, the final piece of the puzzle. It shouldn't come easy, especially if you haven't been putting in a lot of time.
I still think the monetization for the game is on a pay to skip basis. By throwing money at it, you can get towards Best-of-whatever mode faster. But even the items that are being displayed as a "oeh look at this shiny thing with awesome stats" are not an absolute must to do well in the game. The argument that you need the special Lion thing in PVP is kind of a signal that there is something wrong with how everything works in PVP. On the PVE (initial balance/design objective) side of things its a handy little thing, but not a must.
I get the arguments of the psychology side of things, however I feel that the counter part should be 2 lessons that can be as valuable as a legendary drop: 1- "You can't always get what you want" 2- "Things that cost money, have a price in time and effort" (you can read time and effort in game as astral diamonds, in real life its called a job with a salary).
As I've already stated in response to @spideymt, the fact that you can buy ZEN with ingame currency is a non-factor for the system. Somebody bought ZEN, even if you yourself are able to grab keys with the help of the exchange. You nonetheless help marketing the product for PWE/Cryptic because you create a demand for ZEN through a higher exchange value.
Others rightfully said that an educated individual has a better chance of repelling the temptations thrown at them, but it nonetheless doesn't change the fact that the devs actively try to exploit and trigger "instant gratification". This is where I run into issues and we both probably disagree. The fact that the devs need to earn money is true, but there are other monetization systems that work more in favor of players, or at least are less harmful by design. This pay-to-loot is effective, but it's not like it's the only one that works.
@ayroux I think an ARPG type loot system is a bit off-topic here. Let's als not forget we are trying to get rid of randomness and it's attached psychological effects and bias. I fail to see how random stats help in that regard.
@ayroux I think an ARPG type loot system is a bit off-topic here. Let's als not forget we are trying to get rid of randomness and it's attached psychological effects and bias. I fail to see how random stats help in that regard.
Yeah, sorry to derail, however I dont think "getting rid of randomness" completely is a good solution. I mean you have to have "bad drops" to make "good drops, good" You also dont want a "1 and done" system either, where you get your piece and you never do that content again. Some of the absolute BEST "PVE systems" out there are games like Path of Exile... that go "hardcore" on the random drops. You get a large number of drops - which feels rewarding, but those drops could be HAMSTER, or the best weapon in the game....
Its what keeps people coming back for more and more and more... With a variable stat range, it removes the randomness of acquiring gear, and even the WORST "version" really isnt that far off from the best possible version.. So you still feel "good" about the item you got, but it also means you will keep coming back for more and more and more as you continue to get a better "version" of the same item.
So how it helps, is you get a good item, feel happy about it, feel like the run was rewarding while at the same time, it doesnt shut you off for doing it again... Even a player that has near BIS version of the item, if a guild mate needed it, and maybe the player stopped running that dungeon... he might be inclined to help a guildie out... while not feeling like its a total waste - because there is a chance he could improve his own weapon/item....
It also (if BOE) creates a "market within a market" where players could sell said items and a "perfect" version would be worth WAY more than an "average" version of the same item... So it promotes a very healthy economy...
You can also start to add harder "versions" of the exact same dungeons, and the ONLY thing you need to do is modify the range of stats the item can roll.
Its creates the best of all worlds with the least amount of developer investment...
The system is designed to keep players the longest, not keep them the happiest and an unsatisfied person is more likely to spend money than a happy one. The game will rise and fall on those principles as long as PWE is in control. That is how they do things. Your time is wasted debating it. But feel free if you like, you must be in your 20's I suppose?
@btairborne Not sure what age has to do with the topic to be honest. If you're suggesting that you learn to accept and cope with certain facts over time, ok. But guess what, not all of us are just content and passive. Even if this leads to nothing, which in fact is very likely, I think any discussion is a net positive.
Also it's not about frustrating players, but triggering addictive behavior. Not saying you are generally wrong though as I think Neverwinter indeed does use frustration to push players into spending money (bag space etc.). But these are two different aspects.
I'm well aware of the meaning, but I still disagree with the theory.
While it is just a theory at present, the same social experiments that make pay-to-loot systems dangerous are providing evidence that unhappy people actually do spend more than happy people. "Shopping-therapy" is a thing, & it is just as troubling as gambling addiction.
@btairborne Not sure what age has to do with the topic to be honest. If you're suggesting that you learn to accept and cope with certain facts over time, ok. But guess what, not all of us are just content and passive. Even if this leads to nothing, which in fact is very likely, I think any discussion is a net positive.
Also it's not about frustrating players, but triggering addictive behavior. Not saying you are generally wrong though as I think Neverwinter indeed does use frustration to push players into spending money (bag space etc.). But these are two different aspects.
I think the age thing was a reference to the probability that a young person would have less family responsibilities than someone in their 30's or 40's. Therefore, they would have more disposable income. Of course, people in the higher age brackets don't quite have a handle on the inflated costs of living They would probably have a heart attack if they saw the student loan bills kids get out of college today!
While it is just a theory at present, the same social experiments that make pay-to-loot systems dangerous are providing evidence that unhappy people actually do spend more than happy people.
Well make that two things that the game happily exploits >:)
I'm well aware of the meaning, but I still disagree with the theory.
While it is just a theory at present, the same social experiments that make pay-to-loot systems dangerous are providing evidence that unhappy people actually do spend more than happy people. "Shopping-therapy" is a thing, & it is just as troubling as gambling addiction.
Addiction and all of its wonderful friends aside, is this evidence objective in nature? Toss me a link if you have one, I like reading.
Dungeon Interior Coordinator for WAR-BOUND. <i class="Italic"></i>
I'm well aware of the meaning, but I still disagree with the theory.
While it is just a theory at present, the same social experiments that make pay-to-loot systems dangerous are providing evidence that unhappy people actually do spend more than happy people. "Shopping-therapy" is a thing, & it is just as troubling as gambling addiction.
Where this game is gambling on itself is... someone who is unhappy is just as likely to buy another game/ download another game as they are to spend money on this game. Especially on the PS4 where people tend to game hop.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
I'm well aware of the meaning, but I still disagree with the theory.
While it is just a theory at present, the same social experiments that make pay-to-loot systems dangerous are providing evidence that unhappy people actually do spend more than happy people. "Shopping-therapy" is a thing, & it is just as troubling as gambling addiction.
Addiction and all of its wonderful friends aside, is this evidence objective in nature? Toss me a link if you have one, I like reading.
@btairborne Not sure what age has to do with the topic to be honest. If you're suggesting that you learn to accept and cope with certain facts over time, ok. But guess what, not all of us are just content and passive. Even if this leads to nothing, which in fact is very likely, I think any discussion is a net positive.
Also it's not about frustrating players, but triggering addictive behavior. Not saying you are generally wrong though as I think Neverwinter indeed does use frustration to push players into spending money (bag space etc.). But these are two different aspects.
I think the age thing was a reference to the probability that a young person would have less family responsibilities than someone in their 30's or 40's. Therefore, they would have more disposable income. Of course, people in the higher age brackets don't quite have a handle on the inflated costs of living They would probably have a heart attack if they saw the student loan bills kids get out of college today!
LMAO...
Reality is this...young college students are typically broke. As you age and get into the workforce and earn income your disposable income rises. As you hit your late 30's to early 40's most of you funds are tied into family items: cars, mortgage, student loans (yours or your kids), etc...once you hit around 50 that is when a person truly starts to see some form of disposable income but you need to save it for retirement as we are now all living longer lives. The reality is, the average person truly doe snot have as much as you think they have for disposable income. And for the rich people, they actually have more than you think they have.
As for the LB, I personally would rather the devs start introducing the items in them in the Market Place. For instance, we should be able to buy the Legendary Mount Pack from the MP for a single character when the Glorious LB are not the current LB that we can pick up. As for pricing, that would be a Cryptic/PWE decision but I would guess around $200-500 for a legendary mount pack that would be character bound.
Comments
I buy keys but I am an adult and not a child and I know my financial limits. From a morale stand point, I do not like this model, but from a business stand point, it makes financial sense as long as the consumer continue to buy into it.
I honestly feel all LB items should be sold in the Zen store after making an appearance in the LB and be removed when returning to the LB.
This way, gambling is not really there and consumers will have two ways to acquire the items in he LB.
One of the BEST things they could do for this game would be this:
- Bring back the focus of DUNGEONS (they are slowly doing this it seems).
- Within dungeons, drop BIS gear. With fixed "stats" but RANDOM stat VALUES.
So as an example:
You run a dungeon and get a 2H Axe This sword guarantees to have the stat "Power" on it. What you dont know is what stat VALUE it will roll when it drops.
So currently you might see these stats:
DMG: 2,221-2,714 Damage
Equip: +7,622 Power
Equip: +1,343 Critical Strike
Equip: +1,343 Recovery
Well what they should do INSTEAD is create stat ranges:
DMG (2,001 - 2,221) - (2,501 - 2,714)
Equip: +(7,122 - 7,622) Power
Equip: +(1,143 - 1,343) Critical Strike
Equip: +(1,143 - 1,343) Recovery
So you MIGHT end up with a drop that says:
DMG: 2,117-2,613 Damage
Equip: +7,578 Power
Equip: +1,201 Critical Strike
Equip: +1,276 Recovery
Values were RNG.
So the SAME player might run the SAME dungeon over and over in hopes of getting an "upgraded" version of the same item:
(with all "perfect" rolls it would be:)
DMG: 2,221-2,714 Damage
Equip: +7,622 Power
Equip: +1,343 Critical Strike
Equip: +1,343 Recovery
This gets players coming back for more and more and more but also, is not as frustrating since each run offers a CHANCE at a slight upgrade... As you get the better and better version, it is a lower and lower chance at a better item... but its still there!
I would wager "Perfect" items would be near impossible...
This would be a FAR AND WAY better system of itemization. Get rid of "artifact equipment" as the BIS rewards. Drop these RNG Value items from Dungeons. (You could even keep artifact equipment as a thing, but merely make them equal to 80 or 90% of the max values possible on the dungeon rewards).
This would make the game LARGELY more fun to play IMO. An endless "reward" system with near infinite replayability....
Its what keeps players doing dungeon crawlers over and over and over....
P.S.: I dont like "ideas" from other games...sry
With the discount coupons you can get a key for about 85 zen if I recall. This will require two things.
1) the patience to postpone the purchase of a key so that you can get it at a lower cost.
2) you will need an average of 42500 astral diamonds assuming an AD to ZEN convert ratio of the maximum of 500 for 1 ZEN.
Now you could go two ways with this, you could farm/grind your head off and try to get the maximum amount of rough astral diamonds a day, which is 36000. So that will get you a potential key once every 2 days.
More realistically you could set the goal at a key a week. You can easily get 42500 astral diamonds by doing stuff like a lvl 70 skirmish once a day, supplemented by the weekly quests of various campaigns. Its not impossible.
Now the problem with society nowadays and the gaming community in general that it's too focused on "instant gratification". There lies your problem. People do not want to set longer term goals, or actually take a bit longer to get a certain thing. This is especially true when there is an easier path presented.
That lockboxes and zen purchases are in the daily pop up window for character login is kind of a no-brainer. Developing and maintaining the game costs money. People that don't mind supporting the game will do so and showing different things that you can spend your money on is perfectly normal for free to play games nowadays. As much as they like you to play the game, developers still got to eat and pay their bills too (preferably server bills first).
Now as to the argument that lockboxes are gambling and that its really disappointing to not get the shiny mount on opening. You may have noticed the certain currency you get from lockboxes called trade bars. This is made to offset the fact that the RNG can be pretty terrible. The trade bar merchant sells most of the mounts and artefacts that have been promoted in lockboxes gone by. Especially those purple mounts have a normalised version of their legendary counter parts. This is to make it more accessible while also guaranteeing that the legendary mounts are still the pinnacle of what you could get. Does this make the legendary stuff a necessity? I say no. It makes it easier, and certainly a very good long term goal to aim for. End game is just that, the end of the game, the top, the final piece of the puzzle. It shouldn't come easy, especially if you haven't been putting in a lot of time.
I still think the monetization for the game is on a pay to skip basis. By throwing money at it, you can get towards Best-of-whatever mode faster. But even the items that are being displayed as a "oeh look at this shiny thing with awesome stats" are not an absolute must to do well in the game. The argument that you need the special Lion thing in PVP is kind of a signal that there is something wrong with how everything works in PVP. On the PVE (initial balance/design objective) side of things its a handy little thing, but not a must.
I get the arguments of the psychology side of things, however I feel that the counter part should be 2 lessons that can be as valuable as a legendary drop: 1- "You can't always get what you want" 2- "Things that cost money, have a price in time and effort" (you can read time and effort in game as astral diamonds, in real life its called a job with a salary).
@svenisperfect thanks for your thoughts, good read!
As I've already stated in response to @spideymt, the fact that you can buy ZEN with ingame currency is a non-factor for the system. Somebody bought ZEN, even if you yourself are able to grab keys with the help of the exchange. You nonetheless help marketing the product for PWE/Cryptic because you create a demand for ZEN through a higher exchange value.
Others rightfully said that an educated individual has a better chance of repelling the temptations thrown at them, but it nonetheless doesn't change the fact that the devs actively try to exploit and trigger "instant gratification". This is where I run into issues and we both probably disagree. The fact that the devs need to earn money is true, but there are other monetization systems that work more in favor of players, or at least are less harmful by design. This pay-to-loot is effective, but it's not like it's the only one that works.
@ayroux I think an ARPG type loot system is a bit off-topic here. Let's als not forget we are trying to get rid of randomness and it's attached psychological effects and bias. I fail to see how random stats help in that regard.
Its what keeps people coming back for more and more and more... With a variable stat range, it removes the randomness of acquiring gear, and even the WORST "version" really isnt that far off from the best possible version.. So you still feel "good" about the item you got, but it also means you will keep coming back for more and more and more as you continue to get a better "version" of the same item.
So how it helps, is you get a good item, feel happy about it, feel like the run was rewarding while at the same time, it doesnt shut you off for doing it again... Even a player that has near BIS version of the item, if a guild mate needed it, and maybe the player stopped running that dungeon... he might be inclined to help a guildie out... while not feeling like its a total waste - because there is a chance he could improve his own weapon/item....
It also (if BOE) creates a "market within a market" where players could sell said items and a "perfect" version would be worth WAY more than an "average" version of the same item... So it promotes a very healthy economy...
You can also start to add harder "versions" of the exact same dungeons, and the ONLY thing you need to do is modify the range of stats the item can roll.
Its creates the best of all worlds with the least amount of developer investment...
The game will rise and fall on those principles as long as PWE is in control. That is how they do things.
Your time is wasted debating it. But feel free if you like, you must be in your 20's I suppose?
Are you sure about that?
PS4 characters:
Brie Liadon, Shotgun Wizard
Disposable Hero, Kidney removal technician
Valorous Cake, Armored pastry defender
Ginger Christ needs no introductions
Meaning that a satisfied person is 'satisfied' with their current condition, and by definition, does not need to buy anything more (in theory).
PS4 characters:
Brie Liadon, Shotgun Wizard
Disposable Hero, Kidney removal technician
Valorous Cake, Armored pastry defender
Ginger Christ needs no introductions
Also it's not about frustrating players, but triggering addictive behavior. Not saying you are generally wrong though as I think Neverwinter indeed does use frustration to push players into spending money (bag space etc.). But these are two different aspects.
Well make that two things that the game happily exploits >:)
PS4 characters:
Brie Liadon, Shotgun Wizard
Disposable Hero, Kidney removal technician
Valorous Cake, Armored pastry defender
Ginger Christ needs no introductions
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
http://www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/12975/volumes/ap07/AP-07
Reality is this...young college students are typically broke. As you age and get into the workforce and earn income your disposable income rises. As you hit your late 30's to early 40's most of you funds are tied into family items: cars, mortgage, student loans (yours or your kids), etc...once you hit around 50 that is when a person truly starts to see some form of disposable income but you need to save it for retirement as we are now all living longer lives. The reality is, the average person truly doe snot have as much as you think they have for disposable income. And for the rich people, they actually have more than you think they have.
As for the LB, I personally would rather the devs start introducing the items in them in the Market Place. For instance, we should be able to buy the Legendary Mount Pack from the MP for a single character when the Glorious LB are not the current LB that we can pick up. As for pricing, that would be a Cryptic/PWE decision but I would guess around $200-500 for a legendary mount pack that would be character bound.