"Mr. Shicoff, tear down this wall!"

hustin1

A year ago all of the cool and interesting side areas in Cragmire Crypts (as well as in Gray Wolf Den and Temple of the Spider) were unnecessarily blocked off. Looking at the map, it appears that they are still there, only inaccessible. Can we please have these walls removed? There is no reason to block these awesome areas off. Every dungeon should invite exploration!

santralafax

Isn't there a missing segment of CN called "the Never"? I'd like to explore it. Apparently it was a dungeion in a dungeon, and there was a deed and title just for doing that.

greywynd

Not really.

drkbodhi

CN used to take 90 minutes with a strong group. Well worth the effort. I barely remember it because I think I ran it 2 or 3 times before M6 hit.

silence1x

drkbodhi said:

CN used to take 90 minutes with a strong group. Well worth the effort. I barely remember it because I think I ran it 2 or 3 times before M6 hit.

Yes it did and it was glorious. Then, people started posting solo CN runs on youtube and killed it for the rest of us

thefabricant

drkbodhi said:

CN used to take 90 minutes with a strong group. Well worth the effort. I barely remember it because I think I ran it 2 or 3 times before M6 hit.

in mod 5 I recall doing it in 17 minutes, not 90. I agree though, I really liked having the longer dungeons with all the side passages etc.

wildfirede

put the dungeons back in dnd, sounds right as atm it is a stright walk with mobs on the way.

jumpingmorks

Most groups not only skipped all that content, they actively found ways to abuse the geometry to avoid fights altogether, reducing the times it took to complete each dungeon, so assuming Cryptic were very aware of this it's no surprise they shortened the dungeons when they decided to rework them, pity they removed almost any reason to run them in the first place (sorry couldn't resist that last part, just woke up and grumpy).

That said, I'd personally like several versions of each dungeon available, at the moment we have normal and master, I'd also like to see a legendary version of each dungeon (just give mobs 100% arp like they had when the master versions were first reworked and released) and a legacy version, the old dungeons as they were.

I don't think we'll see a legacy version any time soon, this thread isn't the only thread that has asked for the old dungeons back but since I and no doubt others have no clue when it comes to making content for players I'm assuming they would have to rework and rebalance each encounter in each dungeon to make such a thing happen and then add rewards that are commensurate and not OP with the current environment, which at the moment for many groups is a massive race to the end meaning all the master versions right now can be completed in under 15 minutes.

With the race always on to release the next mod, I don't see how they have the time or the monetary incentive to do such a thing especially since we still haven't seen most of the old dungeons returned to us as it is.

rifter1969

I agree... more complex dungeons would be nice to have.

I miss the giant spider mini-boss in GC... and I noticed that one of the mini-bosses in Cloak Tower is also missing... the giant in one of the crystal rooms...

Having a chance to explore... would be great!

beckylunatic

rifter1969 said:

I noticed that one of the mini-bosses in Cloak Tower is also missing... the giant in one of the crystal rooms...

Not missing. Moved to main path.

kvet

jumpingmorks said:

Most groups not only skipped all that content, they actively found ways to abuse the geometry to avoid fights altogether, reducing the times it took to complete each dungeon, so assuming Cryptic were very aware of this it's no surprise they shortened the dungeons when they decided to rework them, pity they removed almost any reason to run them in the first place (sorry couldn't resist that last part, just woke up and grumpy)..

So... yes. This is totally true. However, as usual, Cryptic took the path of least resistance (and thought), and therefore put out the worst possible implementation that addressed this issue.

Instead, they should have embraced the desire for some teams to quick-march through content, by allowing those environment abuses to not have to be abusive - allow for Parkour as a strategy in all DDs. THEN, for teams that aren't simply rushing to the end boss, provide additional extra rewards for completing other objectives. Maybe killing additional bosses, maybe uncovering/exploring hidden areas, who knows- there's all sorts of creative options. Sadly, Cryptic didn't (apparently) explore creative options that would allow the varied play styles of their customers to remain supported - but rather devolved the game to the lowest common denominator.

More effort? Yeah. More profitable? Definitely - happy players make happy customers. Happy customers spend more money more often. So, in an ROI analysis, this would appear worth it. Problem is, Cryptic's ROI seems to only look forward a month or so, which is really too bad since it means they're not paying attention to the long term health of this game... the evidence of that is clear in the haphazard way the "content" has been strung together starting in M3. They jumped the shark in M2 and have yet to recover.

kvet

None. All the valuable stuff was removed. I guess seals? Not that they are particularly useful now either... If it wasn't for needing DD shards for the SH, I doubt I'd ever run any DDs at all other than 2 easy normal ones for the DD reward.

kievitz

Dungeons are shortened because of the xb and ps players, no more 1 hr lasting dungeons, ever, no delving ever, u can run content in 5-10 min from start tot finish, no delving, did i say that already, no delving. if ya expect so called dungeon runs that last 1-2 hours with great runs, this is not yer game, go somewhere else.

hustin1

One reason why I asked for "tearing down this wall" (I know, I'm dating myself -- grin) is because it's an easy thing to do: just remove a wall asset, double-check the level of the enemies behind it, and voila.

nameexpired

defiantone99 said:

If they do, the rewards must be increased to warrant the time spent in them.

I am not sure.
imho the warrant for the time spent in is in this case the time spent in them.
Not everybody only plays for a chance to receive a +5 ring and AD.
Some play for fun, others for the thrill, others for the scenery.

Especially CN had some very nice touches, but mostly I was unable to explore much due to the other players with the "must rush through make larger pulls" attitude.
There was lots of lore in there, candles to light and a very nice DnD atmosphere.

Although the reward for opening the 4 hidden chests in GWD was worthless, I often opened the secret wall. Useless.

Cloak Tower still has the crystal and fruit items to open the 2 treasure chests at the end of the tower, and I always try to collect them. Useless.

It's the same with MC, there is no point in visiting the adventuring party except the possible artifact drop. Useless.

deathbeez

Call me crazy but I like the 30 min max dungeon times.
If it's the same vanilla dungeons, you're not missing anything you've not seen before.

hustin1

Well, that's the beauty of side areas: they don't add to the run time unless you want them to

tripsofthrymr

+1. Put the side areas back in. Add optional side areas to new content. Put something more than a worthless brown chest in them... put reward commensurate with the additional time that a party may opt to spend on the area. Make the reward different than the main boss reward (not just another piece of gear you're going to salvage anyhow).

Make the choice of which side area of which dungeon you want to explore actually have something to do with your current character goals. Need influence for the Stronghold? Perhaps a Dragonborn wizard that lives in a side area of the Caverns of Karrundax kidnapped a merchant that was trading with the Stronghold. Need a faster mount? Maybe an evil gnome tinkerer lurks in one of the new Tier 3 dungeon side areas, and there is a rumor that he just MIGHT (drop chance) be working on an interesting mechanical mount.

feanor70118

The problem is, and has been for a long time, that there's no real reward from a dungeon except for the boss drops. What they ought to do is restore the side areas and add meaningful rewards, or at least a chance of them, for completing/exploring the side areas.

hadestemplar

hustin1 said:

A year ago all of the cool and interesting side areas in Cragmire Crypts (as well as in Gray Wolf Den and Temple of the Spider) were unnecessarily blocked off. Looking at the map, it appears that they are still there, only inaccessible. Can we please have these walls removed? There is no reason to block these awesome areas off. Every dungeon should invite exploration!

Its remind me situation as it where before mod 6. When classes like HR, DC, TR, CW in Pirate kind dungeon make shortcut like 90% of dungeon.. From start to final boss they get in less than 4 min.. <<<
Only SW and GWF where ones who had run around all dungeon.. And for that I was kicked lot of times.. SO in other words u want bring back what was fixed. And with that u wan to kill 80% of dungeons walk time.

I am by infinite times against such madness.


<blockquote class="UserQuote">

kalindra said:

+1 for more complex dungeons with shortcuts and scenic routes.

And so how this idea make dungeon more complex?? If u want more complex there must be at least 2 roads which lead to final boss. One shorter other long.. This idea is not like that...

hustin1

I'm not talking about Pirate King at all. That dungeon didn't have any side areas, and the changes they made to it were good ones (except for blocking off some of those secret chests along the way -- boo). I was also kicked a lot for refusing to cheat in PK. I'm talking about side areas. CC had at least 4 of them, including a miniboss (Daughter of Lolth I think). GWD had the puzzle room, the troll room, and at least 2 side rooms. ToS had that *****awesome***** undead side area (with a couple of surprises, too).

luks707

I totally agree with this proposal. Sure, the majority of people still will not go to those areas, but they offer something different to those who do want to explore. The only question is how much work would be involved in making this change. Imho it is more important to bring back the other missing dungeons (say at 2.5k IL) than to spend too much time on these ones. That said - if it is as simple as unblocking the areas it should be worth doing. After all chests don't really drop anything too farmable anymore.

hustin1

In mod 9 we had that nifty lore side quest (which I won't spoil for anyone, but suffice to say it's a nice touch). Some of these aforementioned side areas had lore in them (mainly in Cragmire Crypts, I think). A very simple thing to do would be to place some lore in those side areas that followed a story, with something at the end -- even if it's just an achievement. Side areas don't have to be game-breaking or required, since they're "side" areas. A story quest that led to a nifty fashion item, or an achievement, or a title, or to another story would be really, really neat.

mattachine

[rant]
This game engine tracks every movement you do, every damage point you take and every point you heal as well as how many you have killed (even which species/affiliation they are) and how many times you've died. There are also timed criteria used in the game. Everything needed to make dungeons more complex and rewarding for those who do side quests.

I hate myself for suggesting it but create a new currency/token that you can only get from side quests in dungeons. Call them Explorer Rewards or Dungeon Exploration Tokens or something.

Put back in the blocked off areas and add new ones to the mini dungeons that didn't use to have them.

Add new NPC not mega or mini bosses but medium dungeon exploration bosses. That when killed drops these tokens so everyone who participated in that fight (killed, damaged, healed) would get one. If someone zergs the dungeon to the end, fine let them open the chest and only get what is in side.

With the new currency allow us to use it to get rewards that can't be found in the end chests.
It's even possible to make the end reward chests count how many tokens you collected and reward you different items depending on that as well how much time it took you to complete them all.

But something that must be implemented with haste is that no dungeon or boss reward should never ever reward bound on pickup class specific rewards that is not the same class as the character that was rewarded it. That function is already in the game and why we keep getting these, impossible to use, item rewards still is madness. We can't equip them, we can't give it to an other of our toons that could use it. We can't sell it at the Auction House. We can only trash it for gold or discard them. Especially when it comes to items that makes absolutely no sense why they are class specific like head, armor, arms, feet, neck, rings, waist, shirt and trousers. Even some weapons shouldn't be locked to a class. Daggers could be used by both TR and HR as well as axes and dual swords. GF, GWF and OP should be able to choose if they want a mace, axe, regular sword or giant one. They should also get to choose if they want to use a shield or (k)not. CW and SW should also be able to mix it up more. Which lands us with the DC who really has way to much limitations. Most of the items make them look more like a GF, GWF or OP then a DC. Yes bulky armor probably can take a lot more beating then wearing a knitted sweater but really, with magic anything is possible. Just look how safe the half covered female version of many of these are.

Someone, and I wouldn't mind if it was me need to take a whole new design grasp on how this game shall evolve in that area in the future. At the very least we should be able to transmute any item worn on the same body part in to an other no matter what class it has, as long it is also supposed to be worn on the feet as an example.

And please, let us disable the tabards/loincloths/mudflaps/call them what you want. Almost every singe outfit has them, seriously, we need some variation. We need robes, such as what clerics would actually use or wizard and witches as well. They can be two piece outfits but simpler not ballgowns or split in to 4 sheets of dangling cloth.

And don't get me started on the enchants that makes the entire toon change color or burst in to fire and what not. Fine if it was something that was during battle or when they were wearing their armor. But come on, when wearing they civilian outfits? What were you thinking when you made that decision that made you think it was a good idea?
[/rant]