Private vs. Public Q's and Lobbies for Queues.

ltgamesttv

One common complaint from Pug parties in PVP is that PVP premade parties should go fight each other and leave them alone. Pugs, as well as Solo and Duo Qers get tired of fighting full end game Premade PVP parties and I completely understand as I often solo or Duo Q as well and it's frustrating to wait in Q just to see a full team on the other side.

Along these same lines, my guild finds In-house Premade vs Premade to be the most fun PVP available at the moment as we can dictate the rules of engagement (i.e. No Ambush rings, No broken Shadowclad, No Drains, No Bugs, etc.) and we wind up with a fun, fair match of equal gear vs. equal gear.

We would gladly do this all day long as our primary form of PVP or fight against other guilds who wanted the same format of PVP. All we need to do this is a Private or separate PVP Q for Premade vs. Premade.

This simple step alone would remove my guild full Premades from Qing for regular Domi most of the time. We would do inhouses or Premade against other guilds and Pugs could have more fun, balanced matches.

RIght now, when we try to get an inhouse going, we get two full rainbow match comped teams together (one of each class or the same comps as each other) and Q up. We tried this the other day for a solid 2 hours and got nothing but other pugs or partial premades (i.e. duo or trio Q) and never fought our own groups that we deliberately tried to organize and Q against. This is a direct indicator of how bad the Queue system for PVP is.

If I could make two suggestions to immediately improve PVP they would be:

1) Make a private Q for Premades vs. Premades that allow them to match up lobby style.

2) This would be even better. Allow 1 Queue for Solo or Duo Queue only and 1 for 3+ only. In this way Premades only fight Premades and Pugs only fight Pugs. Then the Queue system would only have to try and balance a Duo Q for Pug Queues and premades could manage their own matches. It's a win win.

Please consider these suggestions @terramak @strumslinger

If anyone agrees with these ideas (I know they're not entirely original but now is the best time to get them going considering the state of PVP and the already existing Queue system in place) feel free to comment or throw up a +1.

Thanks for your time.

Unknown

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torontodave

tolkienbuff said:

RIght now, when we try to get an inhouse going, we get two full rainbow match comped teams together (one of each class or the same comps as each other) and Q up. We tried this the other day for a solid 2 hours and got nothing but other pugs or partial premades (i.e. duo or trio Q) and never fought our own groups that we deliberately tried to organize and Q against. This is a direct indicator of how bad the Queue system for PVP is.

1) Make a private Q for Premades vs. Premades that allow them to match up lobby style.

2) This would be even better. Allow 1 Queue for Solo or Duo Queue only and 1 for 3+ only. In this way Premades only fight Premades and Pugs only fight Pugs. Then the Queue system would only have to try and balance a Duo Q for Pug Queues and premades could manage they're own matches. It's a win win.

If anyone agrees with these ideas (I know they're not entirely original but now is the best time to get them going considering the state of PVP and the already existing Queue system in place) feel free to comment or throw up a +1.

Thanks for your time.

To add my own experience when trying to setup a premade match -

In the Past - both teams of 5 would hit 'queue' at the same time, and hope for a simultaneous pop. If both teams got pop, the match would be accepted by both teams and played. If only one team got pop, they could decline it and re-queue together.

Now - When both teams queue, if only 1 team gets pop, The 'decline' team has to drop its members from the queue group one at a time, one at a time, one at a time, one at a time, one at a time (5 times for 5 party members) This is time consuming and frustrating.

I'd like to +1 the idea of making a 10man 'private' queue group able to queue for PVP with a 5v5 of the queue group.

I understand if the devs don't want us to be able to 'farm' each other for rewards, but since there are no real rewards in PVP anyway, why not? Or just only allow rewards in the 'ranked' (public) queues.

The new queue system should be able to adapt to PVP tournaments, ranked leaderboards, etc. Sooo +1 to OP

sweatapodimas

tolkienbuff said:

One common complaint from Pug parties in PVP is that PVP premade parties should go fight each other and leave them alone. Pugs, as well as Solo and Duo Qers get tired of fighting full end game Premade PVP parties and I completely understand as I often solo or Duo Q as well and it's frustrating to wait in Q just to see a full team on the other side.

Along these same lines, my guild finds In-house Premade vs Premade to be the most fun PVP available at the moment as we can dictate the rules of engagement (i.e. No Ambush rings, No broken Shadowclad, No Drains, No Bugs, etc.) and we wind up with a fun, fair match of equal gear vs. equal gear.

We would gladly do this all day long as our primary form of PVP or fight against other guilds who wanted the same format of PVP. All we need to do this is a Private or separate PVP Q for Premade vs. Premade.

This simple step alone would remove my guild full Premades from Qing for regular Domi most of the time. We would do inhouses or Premade against other guilds and Pugs could have more fun, balanced matches.

RIght now, when we try to get an inhouse going, we get two full rainbow match comped teams together (one of each class or the same comps as each other) and Q up. We tried this the other day for a solid 2 hours and got nothing but other pugs or partial premades (i.e. duo or trio Q) and never fought our own groups that we deliberately tried to organize and Q against. This is a direct indicator of how bad the Queue system for PVP is.

If I could make two suggestions to immediately improve PVP they would be:

1) Make a private Q for Premades vs. Premades that allow them to match up lobby style.

2) This would be even better. Allow 1 Queue for Solo or Duo Queue only and 1 for 3+ only. In this way Premades only fight Premades and Pugs only fight Pugs. Then the Queue system would only have to try and balance a Duo Q for Pug Queues and premades could manage they're own matches. It's a win win.

Please consider these suggestions @terramak @strumslinger

If anyone agrees with these ideas (I know they're not entirely original but now is the best time to get them going considering the state of PVP and the already existing Queue system in place) feel free to comment or throw up a +1.

Thanks for your time.

Great idea and well written +1

darkstarcrash

I heartily support this suggestion as a non-pvper.

Cryptic has unfortunately forced me into pvping to help build the Barracks for my guild -- why a Power boon is gated behind Conqueror's Shards, I do not know.

At least if I could queue solo against other unmatched people I would have a better chance of finding other bad players to play against.

bluangeluk

+1

A queue for solo and duo players and then a separate queue for 3/4/5 players would be great. Full support to this idea.

vinceent1

you cant say that duo premade is for pug que. it will be abused horribly that two bis people make duopremade and demolish pugs all the time. even only one strong player can demolish whole enemy team easily. just made it premade or not premade. btw - keep the ball rolling ...

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ltgamesttv

vinceent1 said:

you cant say that duo premade is for pug que. it will be abused horribly that two bis people make duopremade and demolish pugs all the time. even only one strong player can demolish whole enemy team easily. just made it premade or not premade. btw - keep the ball rolling ...

You could do this, although this severely limits people from playing with friends. If you duo Q and go into the "Premade" channel then it must find you a group of 3. Now you've gone back into pugging into a full Premade. However if you want to play with a friend then this still allows you to do so while making sure you're not running into a full 5 man group.

I think this is a nice hybrid that allows people to play with friends without completely unbalancing every match. If there are two BIS players in Q then the point should be that the Queue system should try and find two other BIS players to counterbalance them. This may not always happen but pugs at least will have a fighting chance.

If you leave the system as it is currently and come up against a Premade then there's literally no point coming down from the campfire. If you work with the hybrid system I propose then it at least gives you a good fighting chance, and if the Queue system is improved to find another duo Q to go against a duo Q then it's game on!

Overall though I'm glad we agree that Premades should get their own Q.

Thanks for your reply.

ltgamesttv

magenubbie said:

tolkienbuff said:

1) Make a private Q for Premades vs. Premades that allow them to match up lobby style.

I'm not against a lobby for premades Far from it actually. I'm not seeing it happen, but that's another matter.

But wasn't the new queue system designed so you can queue with 2 teams for the same instance? A lobby would certainly be interesting provided it also displays a clear rating of some sort, but with the current queue system you should already be able to stay away from PuGs if you so desire. Doesn't that queue feature work for PvP? If so, I'd say it should. That's what it's meant for.

The problem is, and you can test this out, PVP is the one thing this doesn't work for. Interestingly we've gotten this complaint by pugs and find it a bit frustrating that people think this without testing it out. If you click on "Private Queue" all forms of PVP are "locked" from the list below level 70, and the PVP Queue's simply disappear after level 70. You simply can't private Queue for PVP.

As a PVP guild this was a huge disappointment for us as we thought "thank gawd, finally we get our own Queue this mod" only to find that wasn't the case at all.

This is what I mean by "lobby" a private Queue that allows us to match groups so we can leave everyone else alone and either inhouse or premade other guilds.

Thanks for your reply.

gankdalf

I kinda expected a PvP private que when they first mentioned the reword.
So I still hope this is something that will make it into the game very soon.

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beckylunatic

Improving PvP queueing sounded like it was one of the things they're expecting to be able to do within the framework of the new system.

I would think they could implement it like Demogorgon, with 10 players entering domination as one queue group, ensuring they will be in the same match. Organizing parties in a queue group was one of the future plans, which would allow the rainbow compositions.

I really think it should be possible, and would be an improvement for everyone. It's only a matter of when....

ltgamesttv

magenubbie said:

tolkienbuff said:

magenubbie said:

tolkienbuff said:

1) Make a private Q for Premades vs. Premades that allow them to match up lobby style.

I'm not against a lobby for premades Far from it actually. I'm not seeing it happen, but that's another matter.

But wasn't the new queue system designed so you can queue with 2 teams for the same instance? A lobby would certainly be interesting provided it also displays a clear rating of some sort, but with the current queue system you should already be able to stay away from PuGs if you so desire. Doesn't that queue feature work for PvP? If so, I'd say it should. That's what it's meant for.

The problem is, and you can test this out, PVP is the one thing this doesn't work for. Interestingly we've gotten this complaint by pugs and find it a bit frustrating that people think this without testing it out. If you click on "Private Queue" all forms of PVP are "locked" from the list below level 70, and the PVP Queue's simply disappear after level 70. You simply can't private Queue for PVP.

As a PVP guild this was a huge disappointment for us as we thought "thank gawd, finally we get our own Queue this mod" only to find that wasn't the case at all.

This is what I mean by "lobby" a private Queue that allows us to match groups so we can leave everyone else alone and either inhouse or premade other guilds.

Thanks for your reply.

Alright. Then throw this into the bug section. I just went through all pages on http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1213646/queue-system-issues-and-feedback and found not a word about it not working for PvP. If we don't tell them, we can't expect them to get it fixed. Hell, if they do make it work I might even return to PvP myself.

I know, there's a poll running in here as well. But the bug section is being read by people who actually fix things. This is merely a discussion section. It may or may not be read by Andy, but that's clearly not enough.

I have indeed posted it there as well in hopes that it's a bug, although I'll be surprised if that's the case because PVP was never mentioned as an addition in any of the Mod Patch notes. However, if you're correct, and it's a bug after all and they fix it, I will be quite giddy.

Thanks for you reply.

pterias

I love where this is going, but there's a problem with the current idea as is. Firstly, if a 3-4 premade Q, there's no way they could fill a full party without throwing some poor PUG into a clash of the titans! A duo being able to pug sounds fine, but I think what may be more realistic to see implemented would be that a premade would have to be 5 people, regardless. You would have the least matchmaking problems that way. Then make it to where premade could ONLY go up against premade, while everyone else would solo PUG. Some sort of lobby or matchmaking for premades would be nice too, but is outside my scope since I'm a PUG.

I used to pvp several times per day, every day, for over a year. I haven't pvp'd in months. Premades, OP's, and the resulting solo exodus are why. If they implemented your general idea along with their planned OP nerfs, I'd be back pvping that night.

vida44

+1 to this

subnocte

Full control over PvP queues would mean it'd get abused just for AD/Glory/etc. Just as some people abused syncing in GG and SH siege to build up all they needed.

Something does need to be done, but it's going to be a massive job to fix this broken mess. There can't be any serious PvP element in the game when there's so little balance, no matching, and a gear gap equivalent to lvl 20 vs 60.

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ltgamesttv

subnocte said:

Full control over PvP queues would mean it'd get abused just for AD/Glory/etc. Just as some people abused syncing in GG and SH siege to build up all they needed.

Something does need to be done, but it's going to be a massive job to fix this broken mess. There can't be any serious PvP element in the game when there's so little balance, no matching, and a gear gap equivalent to lvl 20 vs 60.

I'd like to point out that you sort of moot out your own argument here. Currently under the existing system we can "abuse" the system by Qing as a 5 man BIS team and beat basically anything out there because of the exact issues you mentioned (i.e. gear gap, no balance, no matching).

What I'm proposing would improve your odds as a pug of running into matches that are more fair, more balanced, etc. It would remove a significant number of full premades from pug Queues.

I don't think throwing our hands up in the air and just giving up on the state of the game is a viable solution to an already acknowledged issue. The devs have stated they are beginning to work on class balance, first from a PVE standpoint and then moving towards PVP. That said, a good way to make life tolerable in PVP is to force 5 mades into their own Q system. Even better, imho is to force any group of more than 2 into a "Premade" private Q to fight a Premade group.

In this manner you make regular pug PVP much more balanced and an interesting fight rather than a complete stomp in seconds.

ltgamesttv

pterias said:

I love where this is going, but there's a problem with the current idea as is. Firstly, if a 3-4 premade Q, there's no way they could fill a full party without throwing some poor PUG into a clash of the titans! A duo being able to pug sounds fine, but I think what may be more realistic to see implemented would be that a premade would have to be 5 people, regardless. You would have the least matchmaking problems that way. Then make it to where premade could ONLY go up against premade, while everyone else would solo PUG. Some sort of lobby or matchmaking for premades would be nice too, but is outside my scope since I'm a PUG.

I used to pvp several times per day, every day, for over a year. I haven't pvp'd in months. Premades, OP's, and the resulting solo exodus are why. If they implemented your general idea along with their planned OP nerfs, I'd be back pvping that night.

Then here's another couple of possible suggestions based off of your apprehension about trio Qs. You could force anything above a duo Q to find the rest of the players necessary to fight in the premade Q. So it's either solo, duo, or 5 and you can't Q as any other number.

Another possible solution, and this is one I think would be interesting, would be that you can trio Q and fight another trio Q. Matched 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4, or 5 vs 5 all as part of the "private" Queue system. This would still keep larger groups from Qing together and pug stomping.

Thanks for your reply.

subnocte

tolkienbuff said:

subnocte said:

Full control over PvP queues would mean it'd get abused just for AD/Glory/etc. Just as some people abused syncing in GG and SH siege to build up all they needed.

Something does need to be done, but it's going to be a massive job to fix this broken mess. There can't be any serious PvP element in the game when there's so little balance, no matching, and a gear gap equivalent to lvl 20 vs 60.

I'd like to point out that you sort of moot out your own argument here. Currently under the existing system we can "abuse" the system by Qing as a 5 man BIS team and beat basically anything out there because of the exact issues you mentioned (i.e. gear gap, no balance, no matching).

What I'm proposing would improve your odds as a pug of running into matches that are more fair, more balanced, etc. It would remove a significant number of full premades from pug Queues.

I don't think throwing our hands up in the air and just giving up on the state of the game is a viable solution to an already acknowledged issue. The devs have stated they are beginning to work on class balance, first from a PVE standpoint and then moving towards PVP. That said, a good way to make life tolerable in PVP is to force 5 mades into their own Q system. Even better, imho is to force any group of more than 2 into a "Premade" private Q to fight a Premade group.

In this manner you make regular pug PVP much more balanced and an interesting fight rather than a complete stomp in seconds.

I wasn't throwing my hands in the air, rather saying far more than something like this is needed to address PvP. You can guarantee that people will abuse a system if it lets them because of the supreme grind of the game, and being able to set up private PvP queues would make it incredibly easy for everyone. That's not to say the idea is bad, but the current system is so broken it needs a ton of work -- a starting point would be a matching system that doesn't put BiS people against 2k pugs.

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ltgamesttv

subnocte said:

tolkienbuff said:

subnocte said:

Full control over PvP queues would mean it'd get abused just for AD/Glory/etc. Just as some people abused syncing in GG and SH siege to build up all they needed.

Something does need to be done, but it's going to be a massive job to fix this broken mess. There can't be any serious PvP element in the game when there's so little balance, no matching, and a gear gap equivalent to lvl 20 vs 60.

I'd like to point out that you sort of moot out your own argument here. Currently under the existing system we can "abuse" the system by Qing as a 5 man BIS team and beat basically anything out there because of the exact issues you mentioned (i.e. gear gap, no balance, no matching).

What I'm proposing would improve your odds as a pug of running into matches that are more fair, more balanced, etc. It would remove a significant number of full premades from pug Queues.

I don't think throwing our hands up in the air and just giving up on the state of the game is a viable solution to an already acknowledged issue. The devs have stated they are beginning to work on class balance, first from a PVE standpoint and then moving towards PVP. That said, a good way to make life tolerable in PVP is to force 5 mades into their own Q system. Even better, imho is to force any group of more than 2 into a "Premade" private Q to fight a Premade group.

In this manner you make regular pug PVP much more balanced and an interesting fight rather than a complete stomp in seconds.

I wasn't throwing my hands in the air, rather saying far more than something like this is needed to address PvP. You can guarantee that people will abuse a system if it lets them because of the supreme grind of the game, and being able to set up private PvP queues would make it incredibly easy for everyone. That's not to say the idea is bad, but the current system is so broken it needs a ton of work -- a starting point would be a matching system that doesn't put BiS people against 2k pugs.

I understand what you're saying, and there are other issues that need to be addressed. I never suggested this as a fix all. This would, however, lessen the burden on pugs in PVP. Most end game PVP guilds would rather fight in in-houses or in Premades. If we were given the opportunity to do so then we would not be harassing 2k IL pugs trying to either Q against each other or snipe another Premade that is going around.

You talk of "abusing the system" and again I say, how much less is it abused now then it would be then if that were the case? Right now I can get together a BIS team and go fight pugs all day to farm glory, farm boons, farm AD so... what's the difference? You mean you think that other lesser geared guilds could then do the same thing by Queuing against each other? I mean that would be terrible that lesser geared people would then have the opportunity to do the same thing?

What I'm getting at is Domi rewards are minimal. A little AD, a little glory, some advancement towards PVP boons. Right now in almost every match there is "node swapping" going on already where the winning team allows the losing team to get points for AD and such. There would be little difference in a premade Q.

Thanks for your reply.

ltgamesttv

magenubbie said:

tolkienbuff said:

Another possible solution, and this is one I think would be interesting, would be that you can trio Q and fight another trio Q. Matched 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4, or 5 vs 5 all as part of the "private" Queue system. This would still keep larger groups from Qing together and pug stomping.Thanks for your reply.

Might as well go all the way and also allow duels in that arena. I think people would like the 1vs1option a lot more. It has been asked for since.. open beta I believe. I don't see any of this happen though. Not anytime soon anyway. Let's get the queue itself fixed before we start asking for more features.

While I'm not opposed to the idea of a specialized 1v1 arena. Placing this inside Domi is silly imho. The point of Domi is to cap nodes to win points. You can do this with 3 vs 3 as each node ends up being a 1v1. Anything less than this falls short of being an actual match as you can't contest all 3 points.

Speculation as to what you see happening or not is irrelevant when offering potential solutions isn't it? When you say "get the Queue fixed" it's as though you think there's some other way it's supposed to be functioning but isn't WAI. While I did post in the bug section in hopes that's the case, it's not very likely, we were never promised our own separate PVP Q.

Lastly, the way you seem to discuss it, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I misunderstood, is that you think 10 people are just supposed to get together in a Queue group and Queue for Domi and then they some how get separated into teams? This doesn't make any sense either as the Queue may put 2 TRs on one team or 2 DCs or 2 GFs. Not only that but the Q system is only meant to accept people in a "Q group" who are going to be on the same team. What I mean is you can't Q as a 40 man group for Stroghold, you have to Q as two separate 20 man groups and the Q matches you. This means there is already an invisible Lobby taking place hidden behind the GUI. All I'm asking is that this "lobby" be made visible and apply to Private Q for premades.

This would make PVP much more enjoyable for everyone, pugs, solo Qers, Duo Qers, Full Premades, everybody benefits.

scylent

pterias said:

I love where this is going, but there's a problem with the current idea as is. Firstly, if a 3-4 premade Q, there's no way they could fill a full party without throwing some poor PUG into a clash of the titans! A duo being able to pug sounds fine, but I think what may be more realistic to see implemented would be that a premade would have to be 5 people, regardless. You would have the least matchmaking problems that way. Then make it to where premade could ONLY go up against premade, while everyone else would solo PUG. Some sort of lobby or matchmaking for premades would be nice too, but is outside my scope since I'm a PUG. ....

I see your point, but I wouldn't say that would necessarily be a bad thing. Some time in the last NCL I was thrown into a match with 4 BiS players I remember Stylin in my team and in the other Team, other top players. I died 32 times in that match and had a miraculous 1 kill. But for me that was a super fun match, one that actually made me continue PvP until now.

pterias

tolkienbuff said:

Then here's another couple of possible suggestions based off of your apprehension about trio Qs. You could force anything above a duo Q to find the rest of the players necessary to fight in the premade Q. So it's either solo, duo, or 5 and you can't Q as any other number.

Another possible solution, and this is one I think would be interesting, would be that you can trio Q and fight another trio Q. Matched 3 vs 3, 4 vs 4, or 5 vs 5 all as part of the "private" Queue system. This would still keep larger groups from Qing together and pug stomping.

Thanks for your reply.

I think the 1, 2, or 5 approach would be cool. I was just trying to say that in the end, it would probably be implemented as 1 or 5 for simplicity (solo Q or party Q).

I do fear having too many combination like 3v3, 4v4, trio Qs, etc. could really disconnect the player pools and bog down matchmaking. The more queuing options/configurations, the longer and harder it could be to get a match together, even if there are plenty of people on at the same time wanting to duke it out. Now if full player-controlled premade match coordination was implemented, sure, why not.

sharkvicious said:

I see your point, but I wouldn't say that would necessarily be a bad thing. Some time in the last NCL I was thrown into a match with 4 BiS players I remember Stylin in my team and in the other Team, other top players. I died 32 times in that match and had a miraculous 1 kill. But for me that was a super fun match, one that actually made me continue PvP until now.

I've found myself in similar situations and I thought it was interesting and fun too, but I was thinking of the poor, random 1.5k greenie getting thrown into the meatgrinder and being a verbally abused liability/victim.

Having drastically different player potencies within a team is one of the main reasons I always liked pugging, as long as the power distribution between teams is somewhat balanced, which it rarely is. It makes it exciting not knowing from match to match if I'm gonna be the team powerhouse or if I'm gonna have to struggle to keep up.

Unknown

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