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Artificial restrictions for the golf ball sci ship at T5?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
It seems there is some code in the program that neuters lower tier ships at level cap way beyond what is necessary. Let me explain:


I am a Vice Admiral and recently I decided I wanted to fly the "golf ball" sci ship (T3, commander level). Flying a T3 ship at level cap means that I have significantly
-less bridge officer abilities
-less console slots
-less hull
than a VA level ship. This is what has to be expected when flying a lower tier's ship. But it doesn't stop there. In addition to these significant and perfectly valid restrictions the effects of the bridge officer abilities are reduced as well!

Here are some concrete numbers (everything with the same character spec and without consoles):
Hazard Emitter 1 at 125 Aux:
9049 HP / +27 resist on T3 Science
13573 HP / +27 resist on T5 Science

Transfer Shield Strength 2 at 125 Aux:
684 + 3120 shields / 18% resist on T3 Science
1026 + 4680 shields / 18% resist on T5 Science

Emergency Power to Shields 1:
843 shields / +21 power / 18% resist on T3 Science
1264 shields / +21 power / 18% resist on T5 Science

Engineering Team 1:
3013 HP on T3 Science
4519 HP on T5 Science

Procs from Borg set:
+34% HP / 350 + 1650 shields on T3 Science
+52% HP / 525 + 2475 shields on T5 Science

Not only are bridge officer abilities severely reduced in their strength, but even percentage-based heals like the borg procs are lower in a T3 ship than in a T5 ship. Once again, remember that this is the same VA character!

I really hope this is just some weird oversight that abilities' strengths scale with ship tier and not just character level, and not an attempt to set up additional incentives (besides the BO/console/weapon slots) for a possible refit release on the c-store.


Summary:

I want to fly the golf ball science ship at T5 and I'm fine with it being a T3 ship as long as I get access to the normal strength of my BOs' abilities. I think the current artificial restrictions should be removed.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Oh i see your problem your not stacking enuff win!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    /signed

    /10chars
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Thiis actually makes sense because you can not use all you max level bridge officer skill on the T3 as you can on the T5. It looks like (without actually crunching the numbers) that you lose 25 to 35 percent of those powers. Since the console slot loss is about that, it seems perfectly reasonable to have that happen.

    Let's put this analogy out there for what is is worth. If you were in the Navy and could serve aboard a WW2 Battleship but then were given or request a destroyer you would notice a significant reduction in power of vessels. Going for the ability to shoot an 18" gun down to a 5" makes a pretty big difference EVEN THOUGH your ability to fire that 18" gun has not gone away. The point is, the SHIP restriicts your ability.

    BO abilities are restricted in the same manner. You may be CAPABLE of more on the BO but the ship itself just can not handle it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Lol there was a member of TSI in Kerrat the other day in the golfball ship for VA. mad funny.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    maybe the ship cant use skills past the commander rank skills? maybe it cant benefit from captain and admiral skills
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I think its less the tier of the ship but more like its HP.

    I think that the more HP and SHield HP a ship has the higher the heal is going to be. It might be a % but again im not sure.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    have you taken into account the passive bonus's of the ships themselves.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I think its less the tier of the ship but more like its HP.

    I think that the more HP and SHield HP a ship has the higher the heal is going to be. It might be a % but again im not sure.

    This is not the case. The values are the same among the T5 escorts/cruisers/sci ships although they have significantly different hull values.

    Sh1ngara wrote:
    have you taken into account the passive bonus's of the ships themselves.

    I don't have any skill points for either the T3 or the T5. The +Aux power bonus seems to be the same. I used the same deflectors, and no consoles related to the healing skills.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I would want more testing. It looks like the Borg proc is the most convincing element to your argument - the rest are perhaps working based on an HP percentage, rather than hard HP numbers? Take EPtShields. Same power and resistance boost, but less actual shield gain.

    What I'm trying to say is this: If a tier 3 has less shields than a tier 5, and you boost each by the same percentage, then one will get less hard number shield points, as indicated above. However, if you just have a hard, +XX amount of shields, then the tier 3 is going to have ridiculous healing powers. I mean, if you ran around in a Miranda firing an Engineering Team that can heal 25% of a tier 5 ship's hull, and that Engineering Team did the same healing no matter what, the Miranda would get a WAY huge and disproportionate amount of healing for that power.

    I hope I've made sense here.

    Edit: I see you replied while I was typing. Alright, it might not be a hard % of the hull HP. BUT, perhaps they just reduce it for each tier. Maybe the reduction is a bit much, but it is necessary, for something like the Miranda example I used above.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Felderburg wrote: »
    I mean, if you ran around in a Miranda firing an Engineering Team that can heal 25% of a tier 5 ship's hull, and that Engineering Team did the same healing no matter what, the Miranda would get a WAY huge and disproportionate amount of healing for that power.

    I understand this line of thought, but I don't agree with it. True, the self-heal would be quite large percentage-wise, but the damage I take is not scaled to my ship tier, so I still need T5 absolute levels of healing to survive.

    And even more important: This reduction renders me useless for healing others.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    mancom wrote:
    I understand this line of thought, but I don't agree with it. True, the self-heal would be quite large percentage-wise, but the damage I take is not scaled to my ship tier, so I still need T5 absolute levels of healing to survive.

    And even more important: This reduction renders me useless for healing others.

    I think that's why players are encouraged to fly ships that are appropriate to their level. I could be wrong, however.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    it could also be an internal coding thing within the game so cheaters not saying there are any out there or anything but in the case a cheat engine ever were to come out that the powers of a ship couldnt go beyond a specific figure and power level.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    mancom wrote:
    I think the current artificial restrictions should be removed.

    I agree with this. I would like Cryptic to give everyone more freedom to fly any ship,(with-in their own faction) that they want.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    mancom wrote:
    It seems there is some code in the program that neuters lower tier ships at level cap way beyond what is necessary. Let me explain:


    I am a Vice Admiral and recently I decided I wanted to fly the "golf ball" sci ship (T3, commander level). Flying a T3 ship at level cap means that I have significantly
    -less bridge officer abilities
    -less console slots
    -less hull
    than a VA level ship. This is what has to be expected when flying a lower tier's ship. But it doesn't stop there. In addition to these significant and perfectly valid restrictions the effects of the bridge officer abilities are reduced as well!

    Here are some concrete numbers (everything with the same character spec and without consoles):
    Hazard Emitter 1 at 125 Aux:
    9049 HP / +27 resist on T3 Science
    13573 HP / +27 resist on T5 Science

    Transfer Shield Strength 2 at 125 Aux:
    684 + 3120 shields / 18% resist on T3 Science
    1026 + 4680 shields / 18% resist on T5 Science

    Emergency Power to Shields 1:
    843 shields / +21 power / 18% resist on T3 Science
    1264 shields / +21 power / 18% resist on T5 Science

    Engineering Team 1:
    3013 HP on T3 Science
    4519 HP on T5 Science

    Procs from Borg set:
    +34% HP / 350 + 1650 shields on T3 Science
    +52% HP / 525 + 2475 shields on T5 Science

    Not only are bridge officer abilities severely reduced in their strength, but even percentage-based heals like the borg procs are lower in a T3 ship than in a T5 ship. Once again, remember that this is the same VA character!

    I really hope this is just some weird oversight that abilities' strengths scale with ship tier and not just character level, and not an attempt to set up additional incentives (besides the BO/console/weapon slots) for a possible refit release on the c-store.


    Summary:

    I want to fly the golf ball science ship at T5 and I'm fine with it being a T3 ship as long as I get access to the normal strength of my BOs' abilities. I think the current artificial restrictions should be removed.

    How dare you ask to fly anything but a TNG ship here in TNG Online?
    I think that's why players are encouraged to fly ships that are appropriate to their level. I could be wrong, however.

    LOL! You were the front-man for the 'no one should be flying ships appropriate to their level' campaign, but instead we should all be flying TNG ships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Interesting. If I'm reading these numbers right, it would definitely indicate that a T3 ship's BOff powers are not as good as those same powers being fired off in a T5.

    Could we have more data? Were you using any consoles? Were any of the BOffs providing space passives? Certain T5 ships get bonuses from using lower-tier skills (that is, a VA science captain flying a DSSV gets some bonus from having the lower-tier science vessel skills in total; could the VA you were testing this with have had those higher-tier science ship skills? Would they even apply?)

    I admit I don't have the brain to crunch numbers, but this seems like a very valid concern and worth investigation.

    ETA: I'd be reasonably certain that this is not some sort of stealth marketing gimmick to purchase T5 refits on the C-Store. For starters, one does not bury marketing incentives. =) That being said, good catch!

    ETA2: I think someone already checked that these powers don't operate on hard percentages; is that correct? If that were the case then, yes, each power would indeed give less healing with a lower-tier ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pasquatic wrote:
    LOL! You were the front-man for the 'no one should be flying ships appropriate to their level' campaign, but instead we should all be flying TNG ships.

    No, I was a proponent of raising certain T4 ships to T5 because I believe there was a valid argument for them being on that level of capability. That argument won out. You should let go of your hatred for all things TNG in STO. Post-TNG options are available to all and I don't want them to disappear.

    Let it go, man. It's just sad.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Pasquatic wrote:
    How dare you ask to fly anything but a TNG ship here in TNG Online?

    The golf ball science ship is from TNG! Okay, All Good Things is an alternate future, but it is TNG nonetheless. ;)
    V-Mink wrote:
    Could we have more data? Were you using any consoles? Were any of the BOffs providing space passives? Certain T5 ships get bonuses from using lower-tier skills (that is, a VA science captain flying a DSSV gets some bonus from having the lower-tier science vessel skills in total; could the VA you were testing this with have had those higher-tier science ship skills? Would they even apply?)

    [...]

    ETA2: I think someone already checked that these powers don't operate on hard percentages; is that correct? If that were the case then, yes, each power would indeed give less healing with a lower-tier ship.

    I did not use a bridge officer that gives passive space skills. I do not have points in science vessel skills of any tier. I did not use any consoles that boost HE/TSS/ET or auxillary power levels. I used the same engine/deflector/shield and consoles on each ship (the full Borg set and a field generator).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    mancom wrote:
    The golf ball science ship is from TNG! Okay, All Good Things is an alternate future, but it is TNG nonetheless. ;)



    I did not use a bridge officer that gives passive space skills. I do not have points in science vessel skills of any tier. I did not use any consoles that boost HE/TSS/ET or auxillary power levels. I used the same engine/deflector/shield and consoles on each ship (the full Borg set and a field generator).

    Thanks for that info! This is indeed an interesting data set. Have to dig more into this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    like i said, its probably your captain skills. it is known that a tier 3 ship wont benefiting from the tier 4 long range science skill and any of the tier 5 science ship skills. it might not be benefiting from ANY of your tier 4 and tier 5 captain skills. that means the shield performance skill, hazard emitters skill, deflector field skill, and hull repair skill are being ignored by your tier 3 ship. not being able to use those bonuses would explain the drop in ability performance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    wrote:
    like i said, its probably your captain skills. it is known that a tier 3 ship wont benefiting from the tier 4 long range science skill and any of the tier 5 science ship skills. it might not be benefiting from ANY of your tier 4 and tier 5 captain skills. that means the shield performance skill, hazard emitters skill, deflector field skill, and hull repair skill are being ignored by your tier 3 ship. not being able to use those bonuses would explain the drop in ability performance.
    You mean if you are sitting in a Tier 3 ship, all Tier 4 and Tier 5 skills are ignored.

    Hmm. That would be interesting. If it's a general rule, one could try test it out with equipping Tier 4 or Tier 5 weapons and seeing if the skill points spent there do anything.

    It could also just affect BO skills (and maybe only healing skills). In that case, one could take Hazard Emitters for example and train out of the skill and see if the resulting values are now the same for Tier 5 and Tier 3 vessels.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    You mean if you are sitting in a Tier 3 ship, all Tier 4 and Tier 5 skills are ignored.

    Hmm. That would be interesting. If it's a general rule, one could try test it out with equipping Tier 4 or Tier 5 weapons and seeing if the skill points spent there do anything.

    It could also just affect BO skills (and maybe only healing skills). In that case, one could take Hazard Emitters for example and train out of the skill and see if the resulting values are now the same for Tier 5 and Tier 3 vessels.

    I don't think *all* T4 or T5 skills are being ignored, but the T4 and T5 starship skills most certainly are. From everything I've read, the specific starship skills apply a certain amount for *higher* tier ships, but there was nothing saying they'd work for *lower* tier ships.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    like i said, its probably your captain skills. it is known that a tier 3 ship wont benefiting from the tier 4 long range science skill and any of the tier 5 science ship skills. it might not be benefiting from ANY of your tier 4 and tier 5 captain skills. that means the shield performance skill, hazard emitters skill, deflector field skill, and hull repair skill are being ignored by your tier 3 ship. not being able to use those bonuses would explain the drop in ability performance.

    I had already mentioned that I do not have science ship skills of any tier. And while I have skills for HE/TSS (T4 skills), I do not have any ET skills beyond the T1 "Engineering Team Leader".
    Apart from that I don't think that any of the T4/T5 skills give enough of a boost to explain the HE/TSS improvement by almost 50%.

    Another hint that the problem is not with ignored T4/T5 skills: my power levels are affected by T5 skills, they do not differ between the T3 and T5 ship.
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