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Ground Combat Revamp - Major Improvement or New Game Enhancement?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I keep reading/hearing a lot about the upcoming "Massive Ground Combat Revamp" that is supposed to magically solve all of the problems with Ground Combat in Star Trek Online. I'm worried that this massive, four month long revision, during which time no new content is going to be added to the game, is being massively over-hyped.

Many of us have seen before what happens when development teams institute massive sweeping changes to MMOs. For those of you that haven't heard of SWG and the NGE I highly recommend reading about it. What many of you may not know is that Cryptic had its own version of the NGE, with City of Heroes/Villains, called Enhancement Diversification. Both the NGE and ED instituted sweeping changes, both cost their respective games thousands of subscribers.

The problem, as I see it, is that even if Cryptic does change the Ground Combat into something that's absolutely awesome, it's still not going to magically cause me to enjoy those repetitive "Kill 5 of 5" missions. And I believe that it's those kinds of missions that are the real problem with Ground Combat in Star Trek Online.

Rather than making a huge sweeping change to Ground Combat, that we know will prevent them from adding any new Mission Content to the game until at least June, and may actually cost them subscribers, I believe that what Cryptic should simply give Ground Combat a comprehensive once-over.

1) Bug Fixes
Powers must work when buttons are pressed and/or the icons are clicked on, period. Secondly, Wyatt Erp and his Dual-Pistols-of-Death needs to just go away.

2) Balance Pass
Tweak some of the numbers a bit to speed things up a little and make some powers work the way they should. (Orbital Strike anyone?)

3) Throw the Trash Missions into the Trash
The Featured Episodes have shown us that Ground Combat, as it currently is in the game, is still fun and exciting when it serves a purpose higher than simply "Kill Five of Five." When Ground Combat is repetitive, doesn't advance the story, and simply makes no sense that's when most people have a real problem with it. Even if the Ground Combat mechanics are changed to be the best thing ever seen in a video game "Kill 5 of 5" is still repetitive and boring.


Sony's President, John Smedley, has gone on record that the NGE cost them thousands of subscribers and that it was a huge mistake. Similarly Jack Emmert, Cryptic's CEO, has also gone on record admitting that ED cost them thousands of subscribers as well. So you'd think that Cryptic would have already learned this lesson.

Look, I'm not hating on Cryptic. I'm actually concerned that this sweeping Ground Combat change might be a big mistake, that it's not really going to help Star Trek Online gameplay, and that it just might end up being STO's 'NGE'.

Believe it or not, I'd really hate to see that happen.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Two things:

    1. The new ground combat interface will be entirely optional. We aren't losing anything we have now (You can quote Gozer on that, atleast).

    2. Ground combat has been the single most despised part of STO for the masses since launch. I don't mind it, and I think it can be alot of fun in a team particularly, but most people hate it, and have made their distaste for it loud and clear to the STO team.

    So, there is good reason they have been looking into making some changes, which will be entirely optional from what I understand. I've also heard that there will be changes to weaponry though, but I'm unclear on that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'm worried that this massive, four month long revision, during which time no new content is going to be added to the game, is being massively over-hyped.


    i dont remember them ever saying they wont add any new content over the next 4 months.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    PF, just making this comparison is beyond ridiculous. The NGE removed dozens of professions from the game and invalidated all the work people put into unlocking Jedi. It also removed item decay, which completely screwed up the crafting profession and economy. On the other hand, the only thing being changed in STO is how ground combat works. Please dont make such a ridiculous comparison!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    If this change is going to be optional, then dont even bother wasting your time. Either commit fully to making ground fun by changing all of the mechanics of the game, or dont and leave it as the TRIBBLE it is. Dont give us a half assed reticle that has no benefit. The problem also lies in stupid AI & terrible controls as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    as one of the minority that has never had much problems with ground combat. all i want is the controls to be a bit smoother and for things to work right. i actually quite like the way ground works as it is, it just needs some polish which i think is what they are aiming for.

    im not expecting a major overhaul in terms of the whole system being turned upside down and i think anybody who is might end up disappointed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The argument would hold more water if the current ground combat weren't so bad.

    SWG had a competent, deep combat system before the CU (which was quite different from the NGE - which further nerfed everything). You see the NGE actually decreased the number of choices players had by hard coding them into roles.

    Everything Cryptic has mentioned so far seems to point to ground combat being faster and having more choices/variety with weaponry (there will be reasons to have sniper rifle over a compression pistol).

    STO has a dizzying lack of choice right now and the new weapon changes seem to remedy that (and hopefully reduce combat times versus NPCs).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    PF, just making this comparison is beyond ridiculous. The NGE removed dozens of professions from the game and invalidated all the work people put into unlocking Jedi. It also removed item decay, which completely screwed up the crafting profession and economy. On the other hand, the only thing being changed in STO is how ground combat works. Please dont make such a ridiculous comparison!
    Really?

    I'm not saying that this upcoming revamp will be a complete rewrite of the game, as the NGE was, but ED wasn't a complete rewrite of the game and it had much the same effect on CoH/V as the NGE had on SWG.

    And it appears to me that the STO devs are really hanging a lot on this revamp. Here's what I've seen in the last couple of months:

    Q: "How come we don't get BO's of <insert race here>?" - A: "We're waiting until the Ground Combat Revamp to work on that."

    Fixing problems with Mk XI & XII weapons? - Ground Combat Revamp

    Insta-kill bug that's been in the game for almost a year now? - Ground Combat Revamp

    First Officer/Department Head System? - Ground Combat Revamp

    Fixing bugs with various powers like Orbital Strike? - Ground Combat Revamp

    When are you guys going to finally fix the broken STFs? - Ground Combat Revamp

    Why aren't we getting any new Mission Content until June or July? - Ground Combat Revamp

    It sounds to me that this GCR is going to be a lot more than just an optional targeting reticule. In fact it has to be more than that because CO already has a targeting reticule and it's the same engine.

    You will never be able to convince me that the entire STO dev team is going to stop producing anything for the next 3/4 months (except for Fed only C-Store items) just so they can add an optional targeting reticule to the game.

    The devs have already said that this is going to be a big change. So I have to disagree with you this time Grand Nagus. I really don't think it's a ridiculous comparison.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The devs have already said that this is going to be a big change. So I have to disagree with you this time Grand Nagus. I really don't think it's a ridiculous comparison.
    Here's where Nagus isn't seeing your comparison:
    • STO's ground combat is rubbish and they're changing it to be faster and more tactical.
    • SWG's ground combat was amazing and they nerfed the amount of choices, class combos, etc.
    Honestly, SWG's CU was more about changing ground combat.

    The NGE nerfed systems across the board: it would be like removing the skill tree and making only tactical captains have access to Quantum Torpedoes. literally.
    Pre-NGE SWG: I was a smuggler and master weapons crafter, smuggling my weaponry across the galaxy and operating manufacturing facilities in the deserts of Tatooine. Combat was fun and I had freedom to redefine my role often.

    Post-NGE SWG: I could only be a smuggler or only be a crafter. Ground combat was a chore and suddenly crafters couldn't be anything else. :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Here's where Nagus isn't seeing your comparison:
    • STO's ground combat is rubbish and they're changing it to be faster and more tactical.
    • SWG's ground combat was a amazing and they nerfed the amount of choices.

    No, the reason I'm not seeing the comparison is because the NGE did all the things I mentioned in my previous post, while what is happening to STO is a ground combat revamp. If you want to compare that to SWG, then that would be comparable to the CU(combat upgrade). But comparing this to all the TRIBBLE that was the NGE is simply ridiculous.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    No, the reason I'm not seeing the comparison is because the NGE did all the things I mentioned in my previous post, while what is happening to STO is a ground combat revamp. If you want to compare that to SWG, then that would be comparable to the CU(combat upgrade). But comparing this to all the TRIBBLE that was the NGE is simply ridiculous.

    I agree, see above your post.

    The NGE changed a lot more than combat: it destroyed characters I'd developed over the course of years and forced them into one role or the other.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The NGE in SWG was vastly different from anything the devs have described. They're not even similar enough to use as metaphorical equivalents.

    SWG's NGE would be like the devs tying ships class to your career choice: only Tac can fly escorts, only Sci can fly sci, only Eng can fly Cruisers.

    That's essentially what the NGE did when it forced players to give up their cool, unique hybrid classes and strictly play one narrowly defined role.

    That's completely different from the Ground Combat changes in STO: the devs are offering more options (not fewer).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    As others have mentioned the NGE completely changed how classes, professions and crafting worked in SWG for the worse and totally destroyed players characters and year of work in one patch.

    In STO you would have to go a very long way to make ground combat as its currently working worse.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I get the point of this thread; its basically "dont TRIBBLE up", and I agree. But this comparison is just so far off its not even funny.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I already covered this in the OP.

    I'm not talking so much about the specific changes but about the effect that it will have on the player base.

    That is specifically why I mentioned ED from City of Heroes/Villains. It wasn't nearly as sweeping as the NGE, it was essentially CoH/V's CU really, but it had an effect more similar to the NGE in that it drove many subscribers away and it's something that's still talked about years later.

    I tried to be clear in the OP that I was talking more about the effect that it would have on the amount of subscribers, rather than on the actual game play specifics.

    Perhaps the OP wasn't clear enough because you guys don't know what ED is, or is it possible that emotions still flare when the NGE is mentioned?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I already covered this in the OP.

    I'm not talking so much about the specific changes but about the effect that it will have on the player base.

    That is specifically why I mentioned ED from City of Heroes/Villains. It wasn't nearly as sweeping as the NGE, it was essentially CoH/V's CU really, but it had an effect more similar to the NGE in that it drove many subscribers away and it's something that's still talked about years later.

    I tried to be clear in the OP that I was talking more about the effect that it would have on the amount of subscribers, rather than on the actual game play specifics.

    Perhaps the OP wasn't clear enough because you guys don't know what ED is, or is it possible that emotions still flare when the NGE is mentioned?

    Most subscribers (and professional reviewers) believe that STO's ground combat is bad.

    SWG's Achilles heel was "fixing" things that weren't broken: there were few complaints about ground combat, aside from balance/nerf complaints.

    I agree that Cryptic shouldn't mess up ground combat but they're fixing a poor ground game, instead of the other way around.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    What you say you want:
    1) Bug Fixes
    Powers must work when buttons are pressed and/or the icons are clicked on, period. Secondly, Wyatt Erp and his Dual-Pistols-of-Death needs to just go away.

    2) Balance Pass
    Tweak some of the numbers a bit to speed things up a little and make some powers work the way they should. (Orbital Strike anyone?)

    3) Throw the Trash Missions into the Trash
    The Featured Episodes have shown us that Ground Combat, as it currently is in the game, is still fun and exciting when it serves a purpose higher than simply "Kill Five of Five." When Ground Combat is repetitive, doesn't advance the story, and simply makes no sense that's when most people have a real problem with it. Even if the Ground Combat mechanics are changed to be the best thing ever seen in a video game "Kill 5 of 5" is still repetitive and boring.

    What you say they're doing:
    Fixing problems with Mk XI & XII weapons? - Ground Combat Revamp

    Insta-kill bug that's been in the game for almost a year now? - Ground Combat Revamp

    Fixing bugs with various powers like Orbital Strike? - Ground Combat Revamp

    When are you guys going to finally fix the broken STFs? - Ground Combat Revamp
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Honestly, the way things are now, changes to ground can only bring people in, not lose them.

    There was at least one other post, a while back, that also favored a story/objective revamp, rather than a mechanics revamp. I tend to agree with this option. As an avid ground PvPer, I and other regulars have discussed that ground mechanics are just fine - the issue is that PvE stinks and no one bothers with ground (besides the few people that want an FPS ground PvP experience).

    The thing is, even space was only "kill 5" for a while, and people still liked it. Was it because of the pretty ships, or something else? I don't know. Whatever happens to ground, as long as people get on Tribble and test it, and as long as it brings more people to ground PvP, I will be happy.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The NGE in SWG was vastly different from anything the devs have described. They're not even similar enough to use as metaphorical equivalents.

    SWG's NGE would be like the devs tying ships class to your career choice: only Tac can fly escorts, only Sci can fly sci, only Eng can fly Cruisers.

    That's essentially what the NGE did when it forced players to give up their cool, unique hybrid classes and strictly play one narrowly defined role.

    That's completely different from the Ground Combat changes in STO: the devs are offering more options (not fewer).

    I played SWG for a long, long time before NGE...

    I stopped playing about a month after NGE...

    That was a sad time...

    Even if the Dev's completely changed how GC works around here...

    It will never be able to dissapoint me the way NGE did. :eek: :mad::(:mad:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'd like to think that the Ground Combat Revamp that's coming will totally redefine how ground combat actually works in STO. As we all know, it's clunky and doesn't fit what (IMHO) should be a 3rd person shooter model, similar to Mass Effect.

    What I would like to see:
    • Cover Mechanics (flanking, vaulting, suppressive fire, etc.)
    • Manual targeting (or perhaps a snap to targeting once your reticule is close enough)
    • Nerf the 'hotbar' powers so as to make combat more about the phaser fight than it is about techno-magi
    • Make ground combat gear dependent (can't heal someone unless you have a medkit, can't fix the laser drill unless you have an engineering kit with the right tools, etc.)

    And this can be accomplished without making STO ground combat become a twitch shooter, which I know is a concern that's been around since before STO launched.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    My hope for ground combat is simple:
    • Decrease mob HP
    • Increase # of abilities mobs have access to
    • make weapons feel different: ranges, special abilities, more visceral, etc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Like others have said, GCR in TOS is kinda different than CU, and especially the NGE in SWG.

    SWG used to be non-linear game, where the players created much of the games content and the player, you, designed the gameplay around the game mechanics. CU & NGE changed all that, they changed the game mechanics, gameplay and content was desinged and designated for you, it became a completely different, linear game.

    STO has alway been this kind of game, just like WoW and almost every other MMO that's in the market.

    Now I've been waiting for the GCR to hit live since it was announced, but for it to take this long, makes me wonder what kind of update is it? The engine already provides a FPS style gameplay option and that wouldn't take long to implement, so are they also changing/upgrading game mechanics? As the devs have stated, the new gameplay style will be optional, so what will change?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I keep reading/hearing a lot about the upcoming "Massive Ground Combat Revamp" that is supposed to magically solve all of the problems with Ground Combat in Star Trek Online. I'm worried that this massive, four month long revision, during which time no new content is going to be added to the game, is being massively over-hyped.

    Many of us have seen before what happens when development teams institute massive sweeping changes to MMOs. For those of you that haven't heard of SWG and the NGE I highly recommend reading about it. What many of you may not know is that Cryptic had its own version of the NGE, with City of Heroes/Villains, called Enhancement Diversification. Both the NGE and ED instituted sweeping changes, both cost their respective games thousands of subscribers.

    The problem, as I see it, is that even if Cryptic does change the Ground Combat into something that's absolutely awesome, it's still not going to magically cause me to enjoy those repetitive "Kill 5 of 5" missions. And I believe that it's those kinds of missions that are the real problem with Ground Combat in Star Trek Online.

    Rather than making a huge sweeping change to Ground Combat, that we know will prevent them from adding any new Mission Content to the game until at least June, and may actually cost them subscribers, I believe that what Cryptic should simply give Ground Combat a comprehensive once-over.

    1) Bug Fixes
    Powers must work when buttons are pressed and/or the icons are clicked on, period. Secondly, Wyatt Erp and his Dual-Pistols-of-Death needs to just go away.

    2) Balance Pass
    Tweak some of the numbers a bit to speed things up a little and make some powers work the way they should. (Orbital Strike anyone?)

    3) Throw the Trash Missions into the Trash
    The Featured Episodes have shown us that Ground Combat, as it currently is in the game, is still fun and exciting when it serves a purpose higher than simply "Kill Five of Five." When Ground Combat is repetitive, doesn't advance the story, and simply makes no sense that's when most people have a real problem with it. Even if the Ground Combat mechanics are changed to be the best thing ever seen in a video game "Kill 5 of 5" is still repetitive and boring.


    Sony's President, John Smedley, has gone on record that the NGE cost them thousands of subscribers and that it was a huge mistake. Similarly Jack Emmert, Cryptic's CEO, has also gone on record admitting that ED cost them thousands of subscribers as well. So you'd think that Cryptic would have already learned this lesson.

    Look, I'm not hating on Cryptic. I'm actually concerned that this sweeping Ground Combat change might be a big mistake, that it's not really going to help Star Trek Online gameplay, and that it just might end up being STO's 'NGE'.

    Believe it or not, I'd really hate to see that happen.

    Attempting to compare an announcement that the STO ground game is going to be changed against the Lucasarts debacle (Lucas called the shots, SOE was only responsible for complying with the terms of their contract) that was the NGE is fail on an epic scale. All you have done here is show us all that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the NGE.

    No matter what Cryptic does to change the STO ground game it will never compare to the NGE. It simply will not be possible to make the ground game any worse than it is right now.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Ive never largely had an issue with the ground combat in STO. It is very similar in how it works on other MMOs and is nothing out of the 'standard'. Claiming it is absolutely TRIBBLE therefore just depicts the views of the generic combat system MMOs have. At least in my opinion...

    That being said my only thoughts on improving the combat system itself is by simply adding cover and whatnot. Making the combat system more like gears of war, GTA4, Mafia 2 etc would largely benefit the game and style of star trek. Ive never seen a Star Trek episode or movie where 2 people stand facing eachother firing phasers. Typically they will be rolling and dodging behind objects for cover.

    I know this is not what is being worked on and as such im not hugely excited for the combat upgrade. That being said again im not really worried as im fine with the system as it is and im still quite interested in what they will offer. Even if I do think they aren't takin the best option.

    My one very major gripe with ground combat however is melee combat. It just doesnt work. Removing the animation that effectively rubber bands you on moving targets would fix a lot of issues with it. Its very annoying when you fail to damage opponents purely down to bad animation programming. Especially when after a year it hasnt been adressed.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    [*]Nerf the 'hotbar' powers so as to make combat more about the phaser fight than it is about techno-magi
    ...
    And this can be accomplished without making STO ground combat become a twitch shooter, which I know is a concern that's been around since before STO launched.

    The problem with the item I quoted is that many people have issue with the repetitive "1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1..." way of playing ground combat. I know, I know, that's like saying space combat is just pushing the spacebar over and over again. But some people play ground that way, and they don't like it.

    I also hope ground is nothing like a twitch shooter.

    sparkeh86 wrote: »
    That being said my only thoughts on improving the combat system itself is by simply adding cover and whatnot. ...
    I know this is not what is being worked on ...

    Cover does exist. It just only exists in vertical form. You can run behind a corner, or a pillar, or whatever. No ducking though... I'd love to see something like that, but then everyone in PvP would have itty-bitty little short characters.

    Speaking of PvP, go play a ground match or two. Then you'll see just what I mean by "cover does exist."
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Felderburg wrote: »
    Speaking of PvP, go play a ground match or two. Then you'll see just what I mean by "cover does exist."

    It certainly does, but not in any fashion that would be considered exciting. Breaking LoS (Line of Sight) with whomever is targeting you is a good tactic, but I want to be ducked behind a piece of cover and see phaser shots flying by as the attacker attempts to score a hit on the minimal exposure I may have. As is, any break of LoS just makes it to where you're unable to use any direct abilities on the target.

    Part of Cover Mechanics is the part where the attacker is laying on the pressure on whatever is behind the cover, discouraging them from poking their head out to take a shot of their own.

    EDIT: There's no cinematic feel to ground combat!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I never had a problem with ground combat and always thought is was fun. I took advantage of the exploit mechanic. So I have never really thought of it as slow. I guess if you were using expose weapons with no exploit weapons on your bridge officers. Or abilities that didn't expose enemies it would be slow.

    I don't think what they are doing is a major revamp. The only thing I have really heard is they are adding cross hairs, new UI and changing weapon ranges.

    I think this is over hyped like everything else by the community.

    The thing I never understood about ground combat is why you couldn't scroll into first person mode. I think some players would really love that. Because they keep asking for it and probably wont stop.

    I really hope they add is a sniper scope to the sniper rifles. You could really have a lot of fun ambushing mobs and sending your away team in. While you fired from distance. That would be hours of fun even if it was killing five by five.

    I really don't think the changes will be a drastic as some believe. I am also sure there will be plenty of upset set people like always.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    As a long time vet of SWG (I closed 4 accounts to come back here), I share the OPs concerns. However, NGE is proably not the comparison to use in this situation. CU (Combat Upgrade) and C6CD (Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade) might just be the comparisons to use here, tho. And the OP is again right, both the CU and C6CD cost subs, MANY of them, right along with NGE.

    I also cringe a little when an STO ground mission comes up. I find myself yelling at the screen at times, "Move!", "Shoot!". The server/engine lag in powers, finishing the last set of whats happened to get to what your trying to do now is un-nerveing. And, I don't have lag. I play on an Alienware Area 51 with dual quad core, 12 gigs of ram. 7200 rpm hardrive, on a dedicated T1 line. I pay about 400 a month for the privilage of not having lag. Back when I was thinking about the T1 line, a developer at SOE told me in a pm that I could run 43 computers, on standard SWG settings, with NO lag, and that was the basic icing on the cake deciding factor in my choice to get it.

    What gives me a little restraint in what Cryptic is doing here, is the statement that this ground re-vamp will be optional. That would lead me to believe that Cryptic did learn something from others, SOE, and maybe even their own mistakes. I can tell you for sure, if I could of turned C6CD off, I certainly would have.

    And for those that are saying "it's so terrible that anything would be an improvment", that's not always the case. AoC did a combat revamp also and many there were saying the same exact things but in the long run, it cost them a lot of subs. Servers went from 15 down to I think now, 3. 1 of those lost subs (having gone thru CU, NGE, C6CD) was mine. I tested it the night it came out, loged off dead when my equipment/stats were no longer able to even solo a villa, and uninstalled that night and haven't looked back since.

    So the OP is right for a bit of concern. However, the statements that have came out of Cryptic so far leads me to NOT have the same concerns as the OP has.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    STO ground combat is not as defining to the game as it would be in many other games. Startrek has space and ground combat, and a lot of people identify STO more by its space combat system and not its ground combat system.

    To me, ground combat's main perk is... The non-combat stuff going on there. It's one of the best places to tell a story. A ground combat revamp will not change that.

    The ground combat mechanics (including the AI for the NPCs) is the part of ground combat that is very unsatisfying to me, and I don't really believe Cryptic can "TRIBBLE it up" that much. Of course, I am assuming a certain minimum amount of competence there.

    While the complexities of a ground combat revamp are different, I think the magnitude of its effect is more a Crafting system revamp (we've had two of those already, and I'd argue each time for the better).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I am of two minds on this subject I am rather worried that the ground combat could become a cheap twitch FPS game style. Because I believe Mass Effect 2 was pointed to as a reference and done poorly that could be what we wind up with but Done well I would love it. I am hoping for a new ME2 style ground combat where my mortar does not shoot around the planet and wait for the target to die before landing. Where a head shot from a sniper rifle does more Damage. But please, Please, PLEASE do not litter the worlds with knee high walls and rubble.

    Short version: ME2 ground combat good! Knee high walls, twitch shooting, or anything resembling Quake, Gears of War, or Call of Duty BAD.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Yeah.... Yet another refuge from SWG, here. I was a Frontiersman, hunter with expert sniping skill, and a master teras kasi artist. It was a niche build with fantastic long and point blank range (and no mid). And I loved it. I spent a couple of years cultivating him. Right up until NGE made that build impossible, and completely invalidated my investment into that character. CU was cool, in my opinion. NGE... Notsomuch. I left shortly after, after being with the game since Beta 3. Shame.

    I also still play CoH, and was there when they introduced Enhancement Diversification. This "sweeping change" merely affected the way enhancements were applied. Prior to DE, players could god-out their powers by stacking the same enhancement type up to six times in one power (all damage, all accuracy, etc). Players capped out powers quickly, and the devs maintain that the system was "fixed" with DE, which applied the concept of diminishing returns when stacking similar enhancements. Yeah, quite a few players were upset that they were heavily "encouraged" to diversify their slotting, but I am unaware of a supposed mass exodus because of it. People got over it, and still found ways to hit their caps - and doing it the way the Devs wanted: by utilizing power combinations and situational buffs rather than just relying on straight, no-brainer enhancement slotting. It introduced a more interesting element of character planning, I thought.

    NGE. Didn't do that. They completely changed the nature of the game, and removed a player's ability to build a completely unique character.

    STO's ground combat upgrade, as almost everyone pointed out, is nothing at all like NGE. Period. I can somewhat see the similarity with DE, since one of the goals in STO's CU is to introduce true weapon variety, which promotes the idea of strategy and planning. Having the player think before they jump into a fight is not necessarily a bad thing. And I'm excited at the prospect of having to make loadouts based on the mission at hand.

    Ground combat as it is now, is ridonkulous. A single enemy can take sustained weapons fire from six or more entities (if you count turrets, etc) for tens of seconds at times! In the shows and movies, usually, one zap from a dinky hand phaser is enough to bring down most threats in a single burst. So combat seems rather silly right now, with everyone pretty much auto-firing in a frenzy of energy beam chaos. STO can certainly benefit with a more robust aiming system, more diverse use for weapon types, and more tactical and quicker engagements. All of which are being addressed. And all of which will be tested, by us, and won't hit Holodeck until our complaints are mostly dealt with.

    Yes, there's a chance for disaster, but things seem to be in place to prevent such a thing. I doubt it will stir up to DE levels. And it will come nowhere near the epic fail that is NGE.

    The devs told us that they were going to improve sector space, and lo and behold, sector space is about a billion times more awesome than what debuted at launch. I'm going to give the devs the benifit of the doubt, and reserve my judgment until I actually see the darned new system in action once it hits Tribble.
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