I keep reading/hearing a lot about the upcoming "Massive Ground Combat Revamp" that is supposed to magically solve all of the problems with Ground Combat in Star Trek Online. I'm worried that this massive, four month long revision, during which time no new content is going to be added to the game, is being massively over-hyped.
Many of us have seen before what happens when development teams institute massive sweeping changes to MMOs. For those of you that haven't heard of SWG and the NGE I highly recommend reading about it. What many of you may not know is that Cryptic had its own version of the NGE, with City of Heroes/Villains, called Enhancement Diversification. Both the NGE and ED instituted sweeping changes, both cost their respective games thousands of subscribers.
The problem, as I see it, is that even if Cryptic does change the Ground Combat into something that's absolutely awesome, it's still not going to magically cause me to enjoy those repetitive "Kill 5 of 5" missions. And I believe that it's those kinds of missions that are the real problem with Ground Combat in Star Trek Online.
Rather than making a huge sweeping change to Ground Combat, that we know will prevent them from adding any new Mission Content to the game until at least June, and may actually cost them subscribers, I believe that what Cryptic should simply give Ground Combat a comprehensive once-over.
1) Bug Fixes
Powers must work when buttons are pressed and/or the icons are clicked on, period. Secondly, Wyatt Erp and his Dual-Pistols-of-Death needs to just go away.
2) Balance Pass
Tweak some of the numbers a bit to speed things up a little and make some powers work the way they should. (Orbital Strike anyone?)
3) Throw the Trash Missions into the Trash
The Featured Episodes have shown us that Ground Combat, as it currently is in the game, is still fun and exciting when it serves a purpose higher than simply "Kill Five of Five." When Ground Combat is repetitive, doesn't advance the story, and simply makes no sense that's when most people have a real problem with it. Even if the Ground Combat mechanics are changed to be the best thing ever seen in a video game "Kill 5 of 5" is still repetitive and boring.
Sony's President, John Smedley, has gone on record that the NGE cost them thousands of subscribers and that it was a huge mistake. Similarly Jack Emmert, Cryptic's CEO, has also gone on record admitting that ED cost them thousands of subscribers as well. So you'd think that Cryptic would have already learned this lesson.
Look, I'm not hating on Cryptic. I'm actually concerned that this sweeping Ground Combat change might be a big mistake, that it's not really going to help Star Trek Online gameplay, and that it just might end up being STO's 'NGE'.
Believe it or not, I'd really hate to see that happen.
Comments
1. The new ground combat interface will be entirely optional. We aren't losing anything we have now (You can quote Gozer on that, atleast).
2. Ground combat has been the single most despised part of STO for the masses since launch. I don't mind it, and I think it can be alot of fun in a team particularly, but most people hate it, and have made their distaste for it loud and clear to the STO team.
So, there is good reason they have been looking into making some changes, which will be entirely optional from what I understand. I've also heard that there will be changes to weaponry though, but I'm unclear on that.
i dont remember them ever saying they wont add any new content over the next 4 months.
im not expecting a major overhaul in terms of the whole system being turned upside down and i think anybody who is might end up disappointed.
SWG had a competent, deep combat system before the CU (which was quite different from the NGE - which further nerfed everything). You see the NGE actually decreased the number of choices players had by hard coding them into roles.
Everything Cryptic has mentioned so far seems to point to ground combat being faster and having more choices/variety with weaponry (there will be reasons to have sniper rifle over a compression pistol).
STO has a dizzying lack of choice right now and the new weapon changes seem to remedy that (and hopefully reduce combat times versus NPCs).
I'm not saying that this upcoming revamp will be a complete rewrite of the game, as the NGE was, but ED wasn't a complete rewrite of the game and it had much the same effect on CoH/V as the NGE had on SWG.
And it appears to me that the STO devs are really hanging a lot on this revamp. Here's what I've seen in the last couple of months:
Q: "How come we don't get BO's of <insert race here>?" - A: "We're waiting until the Ground Combat Revamp to work on that."
Fixing problems with Mk XI & XII weapons? - Ground Combat Revamp
Insta-kill bug that's been in the game for almost a year now? - Ground Combat Revamp
First Officer/Department Head System? - Ground Combat Revamp
Fixing bugs with various powers like Orbital Strike? - Ground Combat Revamp
When are you guys going to finally fix the broken STFs? - Ground Combat Revamp
Why aren't we getting any new Mission Content until June or July? - Ground Combat Revamp
It sounds to me that this GCR is going to be a lot more than just an optional targeting reticule. In fact it has to be more than that because CO already has a targeting reticule and it's the same engine.
You will never be able to convince me that the entire STO dev team is going to stop producing anything for the next 3/4 months (except for Fed only C-Store items) just so they can add an optional targeting reticule to the game.
The devs have already said that this is going to be a big change. So I have to disagree with you this time Grand Nagus. I really don't think it's a ridiculous comparison.
- STO's ground combat is rubbish and they're changing it to be faster and more tactical.
- SWG's ground combat was amazing and they nerfed the amount of choices, class combos, etc.
Honestly, SWG's CU was more about changing ground combat.The NGE nerfed systems across the board: it would be like removing the skill tree and making only tactical captains have access to Quantum Torpedoes. literally.
Post-NGE SWG: I could only be a smuggler or only be a crafter. Ground combat was a chore and suddenly crafters couldn't be anything else.
No, the reason I'm not seeing the comparison is because the NGE did all the things I mentioned in my previous post, while what is happening to STO is a ground combat revamp. If you want to compare that to SWG, then that would be comparable to the CU(combat upgrade). But comparing this to all the TRIBBLE that was the NGE is simply ridiculous.
I agree, see above your post.
The NGE changed a lot more than combat: it destroyed characters I'd developed over the course of years and forced them into one role or the other.
SWG's NGE would be like the devs tying ships class to your career choice: only Tac can fly escorts, only Sci can fly sci, only Eng can fly Cruisers.
That's essentially what the NGE did when it forced players to give up their cool, unique hybrid classes and strictly play one narrowly defined role.
That's completely different from the Ground Combat changes in STO: the devs are offering more options (not fewer).
In STO you would have to go a very long way to make ground combat as its currently working worse.
I'm not talking so much about the specific changes but about the effect that it will have on the player base.
That is specifically why I mentioned ED from City of Heroes/Villains. It wasn't nearly as sweeping as the NGE, it was essentially CoH/V's CU really, but it had an effect more similar to the NGE in that it drove many subscribers away and it's something that's still talked about years later.
I tried to be clear in the OP that I was talking more about the effect that it would have on the amount of subscribers, rather than on the actual game play specifics.
Perhaps the OP wasn't clear enough because you guys don't know what ED is, or is it possible that emotions still flare when the NGE is mentioned?
Most subscribers (and professional reviewers) believe that STO's ground combat is bad.
SWG's Achilles heel was "fixing" things that weren't broken: there were few complaints about ground combat, aside from balance/nerf complaints.
I agree that Cryptic shouldn't mess up ground combat but they're fixing a poor ground game, instead of the other way around.
What you say they're doing:
There was at least one other post, a while back, that also favored a story/objective revamp, rather than a mechanics revamp. I tend to agree with this option. As an avid ground PvPer, I and other regulars have discussed that ground mechanics are just fine - the issue is that PvE stinks and no one bothers with ground (besides the few people that want an FPS ground PvP experience).
The thing is, even space was only "kill 5" for a while, and people still liked it. Was it because of the pretty ships, or something else? I don't know. Whatever happens to ground, as long as people get on Tribble and test it, and as long as it brings more people to ground PvP, I will be happy.
I played SWG for a long, long time before NGE...
I stopped playing about a month after NGE...
That was a sad time...
Even if the Dev's completely changed how GC works around here...
It will never be able to dissapoint me the way NGE did. :eek: :mad::(:mad:
What I would like to see:
And this can be accomplished without making STO ground combat become a twitch shooter, which I know is a concern that's been around since before STO launched.
SWG used to be non-linear game, where the players created much of the games content and the player, you, designed the gameplay around the game mechanics. CU & NGE changed all that, they changed the game mechanics, gameplay and content was desinged and designated for you, it became a completely different, linear game.
STO has alway been this kind of game, just like WoW and almost every other MMO that's in the market.
Now I've been waiting for the GCR to hit live since it was announced, but for it to take this long, makes me wonder what kind of update is it? The engine already provides a FPS style gameplay option and that wouldn't take long to implement, so are they also changing/upgrading game mechanics? As the devs have stated, the new gameplay style will be optional, so what will change?
Attempting to compare an announcement that the STO ground game is going to be changed against the Lucasarts debacle (Lucas called the shots, SOE was only responsible for complying with the terms of their contract) that was the NGE is fail on an epic scale. All you have done here is show us all that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the NGE.
No matter what Cryptic does to change the STO ground game it will never compare to the NGE. It simply will not be possible to make the ground game any worse than it is right now.
That being said my only thoughts on improving the combat system itself is by simply adding cover and whatnot. Making the combat system more like gears of war, GTA4, Mafia 2 etc would largely benefit the game and style of star trek. Ive never seen a Star Trek episode or movie where 2 people stand facing eachother firing phasers. Typically they will be rolling and dodging behind objects for cover.
I know this is not what is being worked on and as such im not hugely excited for the combat upgrade. That being said again im not really worried as im fine with the system as it is and im still quite interested in what they will offer. Even if I do think they aren't takin the best option.
My one very major gripe with ground combat however is melee combat. It just doesnt work. Removing the animation that effectively rubber bands you on moving targets would fix a lot of issues with it. Its very annoying when you fail to damage opponents purely down to bad animation programming. Especially when after a year it hasnt been adressed.
The problem with the item I quoted is that many people have issue with the repetitive "1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1..." way of playing ground combat. I know, I know, that's like saying space combat is just pushing the spacebar over and over again. But some people play ground that way, and they don't like it.
I also hope ground is nothing like a twitch shooter.
Cover does exist. It just only exists in vertical form. You can run behind a corner, or a pillar, or whatever. No ducking though... I'd love to see something like that, but then everyone in PvP would have itty-bitty little short characters.
Speaking of PvP, go play a ground match or two. Then you'll see just what I mean by "cover does exist."
It certainly does, but not in any fashion that would be considered exciting. Breaking LoS (Line of Sight) with whomever is targeting you is a good tactic, but I want to be ducked behind a piece of cover and see phaser shots flying by as the attacker attempts to score a hit on the minimal exposure I may have. As is, any break of LoS just makes it to where you're unable to use any direct abilities on the target.
Part of Cover Mechanics is the part where the attacker is laying on the pressure on whatever is behind the cover, discouraging them from poking their head out to take a shot of their own.
EDIT: There's no cinematic feel to ground combat!
I don't think what they are doing is a major revamp. The only thing I have really heard is they are adding cross hairs, new UI and changing weapon ranges.
I think this is over hyped like everything else by the community.
The thing I never understood about ground combat is why you couldn't scroll into first person mode. I think some players would really love that. Because they keep asking for it and probably wont stop.
I really hope they add is a sniper scope to the sniper rifles. You could really have a lot of fun ambushing mobs and sending your away team in. While you fired from distance. That would be hours of fun even if it was killing five by five.
I really don't think the changes will be a drastic as some believe. I am also sure there will be plenty of upset set people like always.
I also cringe a little when an STO ground mission comes up. I find myself yelling at the screen at times, "Move!", "Shoot!". The server/engine lag in powers, finishing the last set of whats happened to get to what your trying to do now is un-nerveing. And, I don't have lag. I play on an Alienware Area 51 with dual quad core, 12 gigs of ram. 7200 rpm hardrive, on a dedicated T1 line. I pay about 400 a month for the privilage of not having lag. Back when I was thinking about the T1 line, a developer at SOE told me in a pm that I could run 43 computers, on standard SWG settings, with NO lag, and that was the basic icing on the cake deciding factor in my choice to get it.
What gives me a little restraint in what Cryptic is doing here, is the statement that this ground re-vamp will be optional. That would lead me to believe that Cryptic did learn something from others, SOE, and maybe even their own mistakes. I can tell you for sure, if I could of turned C6CD off, I certainly would have.
And for those that are saying "it's so terrible that anything would be an improvment", that's not always the case. AoC did a combat revamp also and many there were saying the same exact things but in the long run, it cost them a lot of subs. Servers went from 15 down to I think now, 3. 1 of those lost subs (having gone thru CU, NGE, C6CD) was mine. I tested it the night it came out, loged off dead when my equipment/stats were no longer able to even solo a villa, and uninstalled that night and haven't looked back since.
So the OP is right for a bit of concern. However, the statements that have came out of Cryptic so far leads me to NOT have the same concerns as the OP has.
To me, ground combat's main perk is... The non-combat stuff going on there. It's one of the best places to tell a story. A ground combat revamp will not change that.
The ground combat mechanics (including the AI for the NPCs) is the part of ground combat that is very unsatisfying to me, and I don't really believe Cryptic can "TRIBBLE it up" that much. Of course, I am assuming a certain minimum amount of competence there.
While the complexities of a ground combat revamp are different, I think the magnitude of its effect is more a Crafting system revamp (we've had two of those already, and I'd argue each time for the better).
Short version: ME2 ground combat good! Knee high walls, twitch shooting, or anything resembling Quake, Gears of War, or Call of Duty BAD.
I also still play CoH, and was there when they introduced Enhancement Diversification. This "sweeping change" merely affected the way enhancements were applied. Prior to DE, players could god-out their powers by stacking the same enhancement type up to six times in one power (all damage, all accuracy, etc). Players capped out powers quickly, and the devs maintain that the system was "fixed" with DE, which applied the concept of diminishing returns when stacking similar enhancements. Yeah, quite a few players were upset that they were heavily "encouraged" to diversify their slotting, but I am unaware of a supposed mass exodus because of it. People got over it, and still found ways to hit their caps - and doing it the way the Devs wanted: by utilizing power combinations and situational buffs rather than just relying on straight, no-brainer enhancement slotting. It introduced a more interesting element of character planning, I thought.
NGE. Didn't do that. They completely changed the nature of the game, and removed a player's ability to build a completely unique character.
STO's ground combat upgrade, as almost everyone pointed out, is nothing at all like NGE. Period. I can somewhat see the similarity with DE, since one of the goals in STO's CU is to introduce true weapon variety, which promotes the idea of strategy and planning. Having the player think before they jump into a fight is not necessarily a bad thing. And I'm excited at the prospect of having to make loadouts based on the mission at hand.
Ground combat as it is now, is ridonkulous. A single enemy can take sustained weapons fire from six or more entities (if you count turrets, etc) for tens of seconds at times! In the shows and movies, usually, one zap from a dinky hand phaser is enough to bring down most threats in a single burst. So combat seems rather silly right now, with everyone pretty much auto-firing in a frenzy of energy beam chaos. STO can certainly benefit with a more robust aiming system, more diverse use for weapon types, and more tactical and quicker engagements. All of which are being addressed. And all of which will be tested, by us, and won't hit Holodeck until our complaints are mostly dealt with.
Yes, there's a chance for disaster, but things seem to be in place to prevent such a thing. I doubt it will stir up to DE levels. And it will come nowhere near the epic fail that is NGE.
The devs told us that they were going to improve sector space, and lo and behold, sector space is about a billion times more awesome than what debuted at launch. I'm going to give the devs the benifit of the doubt, and reserve my judgment until I actually see the darned new system in action once it hits Tribble.