test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

NERFS and why they suck

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Hey, Dev's, I have a suggestion: grab random people, put there ships at random levels, explain the builds to them and run them through pvp, go!

It sucks. PvP is not some casual fun thing to do at this point. I used to have fun doing pvp and generally all the builds worked as you'd expect them, but everytime I get on, the build or type of ship that should work one way from basic logical reasoning has just been changed because somebody cried Nerf.

This isn't something to normally complain about on my end, because i'm more of a pve oriented type of guy, but it is annoying. These people just wrote up an exhaustingly long thread about nerfing cloaking mines that started not even 2 hours after the thing was released. 2 hours?! How do you know how well something is going to be adapted into the game after less than 2 hours, less than 1 hour for most since you had to complete the episode to get it!

Pvp is not fun, because it's been nerfed to death. Because some guy sees some inconvenience that he doesn't bother training the BO to deal with and cries Nerf because his set up that he's been running since god knows when is 1337 next to every one else's and he can't handle not rocking it out better than every one else.
Post edited by Unknown User on
«1

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    These people aren't even reading the arguments about how that reduces one more weapon or how they can just use polarise hull and update their stragety, they just cry.

    I like the idea of the cloaking tractor mines, why should I be puunished for somebody who can't adapt to one little weapon?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    nerfs are dumb

    /10 char
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Sometimes, nerfs are a good thing.

    Anyone remember the ridiculously long match lengths just after the Season 1.2 power changes? anyone remember when RSP was the "go-to" power in PvP?

    Sometimes nerfs are good, sometimes they're bad.

    Some nerfs are designed to make the game more fun; others are due to complaining; sometimes it's a mix of both.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Sometimes, nerfs are a good thing.

    Anyone remember the ridiculously long match lengths just after the Season 1.2 power changes? anyone remember when RSP was the "go-to" power in PvP?

    Sometimes nerfs are good, sometimes they're bad.

    Some nerfs are designed to make the game more fun; others are due to complaining; sometimes it's a mix of both.

    yeah, I think I just exploded with a bit more nerd rage than is good for the human soul.

    /quit nerd rage rant

    I am going to continue my resistance to this though. It seems like every fun or game changing element introduced to pvp has to be restricted so other people can keep the experience the exact same.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~Stormshade
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    i seriously do not care about pvp balance.

    i just HATE it if the change the stuff i use.

    example: DC Universe Online just had a BIG 1.2 GB patch a few days ago with new stuff everywhere.
    Guess what people complain about? the screwed up walking animation of their chars.

    And seriously i do get it !
    I do set up my char how i like it, i test the 3 walking animations and take the one i like, who are they to go in there one month later switching everything arround?

    Now...
    i do get that there are ballance issues here and there, but that is no reason to cut the duration of the ability in half or double the cooldown. Change the damn STATS in the background instead !
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    dorko1 wrote: »
    These people aren't even reading the arguments about how that reduces one more weapon or how they can just use polarise hull and update their stragety, they just cry.

    I like the idea of the cloaking tractor mines, why should I be puunished for somebody who can't adapt to one little weapon?

    Have you actually read the counter-arguments?

    To illustrate the issue another way. Imagine for some reason the Devs decided to boost all healing powers to grant twice the healing? What would you say? "Bring more damage?" I can just say "We already got all the damage we can give you". At some point, it is just too much.

    Of course, Spam is a little more complicated.than that. The counter to it are different powers, but:
    • People already use a lot of powers to deal with repels, tractor beams and all that. At some point, you are just out of counters but there is still a lot left to deal with.
    • AoE abilities are not unlimited either, and they come at the expense of burst damage abilities. If you load up too many AoE powers, you do not have the damage burst capability to deal with heal-stacking teams (and any good team worth its salt will be doing that - especially if they also use "spam". So effectively, the heal-stacking mine-spamming team is now getting another weapon to its arsenal...).
    • The moments where you do not have sufficient AoE capabilities to deal with the spam, and you're out of control counters, it is likely you cannot fight effective at all - your primary damage dealers are "stuck", unable to target the intended target, making coordination impossible.

    That is something anyone with experience in PvP can atnicipate. Yes, even 2 hours after the release. (Particularly since some people already worried that a Tractor Beam Mine Launcher could be a possible reward...)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Have you actually read the counter-arguments?

    To illustrate the issue another way. Imagine for some reason the Devs decided to boost all healing powers to grant twice the healing? What would you say? "Bring more damage?" I can just say "We already got all the damage we can give you". At some point, it is just too much.

    Of course, Spam is a little more complicated.than that. The counter to it are different powers, but:
    • People already use a lot of powers to deal with repels, tractor beams and all that. At some point, you are just out of counters but there is still a lot left to deal with.
    • AoE abilities are not unlimited either, and they come at the expense of burst damage abilities. If you load up too many AoE powers, you do not have the damage burst capability to deal with heal-stacking teams (and any good team worth its salt will be doing that - especially if they also use "spam". So effectively, the heal-stacking mine-spamming team is now getting another weapon to its arsenal...).
    • The moments where you do not have sufficient AoE capabilities to deal with the spam, and you're out of control counters, it is likely you cannot fight effective at all - your primary damage dealers are "stuck", unable to target the intended target, making coordination impossible.

    That is something anyone with experience in PvP can atnicipate. Yes, even 2 hours after the release. (Particularly since some people already worried that a Tractor Beam Mine Launcher could be a possible reward...)
    It would be annoying if everyone had Gravity Well+PSW+EWP on a Nebula too. In fact, it would be annoying if everyone used the same abiltiies.

    I'd wait a week for the FOTM appeal of tractor mines to wear down. Tractor mines are countered in two stages: damage to the mine and a cleanse to the debuffs.

    Once people realize this and start reverting back to their builds, tractor beam mines won't be as big an issue. Of course, I'm biased. I've been running an AoE Sci build that has several tools for countering both the mine and it's debuff to my ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    It would be annoying if everyone had Gravity Well+PSW+EWP on a Nebula too. In fact, it would be annoying if everyone used the same abiltiies.#
    Oh, it definitely is annoying. The "Spamming" concerns are not new.

    But the Tractor Beam is something you can do _in addition_ to all that. (Or as a better alternative to existing variations, like Chroniton Mines.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Yeah my Cruisers are pretty much flying explosions in space due to the ner***e going on...

    Seriously ...last pvp match I died within 2minutes of fighting...against 2 ships with 5 shield heals/buffs/resists and 5hull heals/buffs/resists and 2 armor resists ... it was all useless because I was waiting on cool downs ... the cruisers are supposed to be the tanks that last a long long time through the match unless they have sustained weapons fire on them by more than 1 ship even if its escorts...

    STOP NERFING EVERYTHING CRYPTIC!!.... why the hell does everything gotta be on a stinking shared timer?

    Even the best hull heal/resist has been nerfed.... Aux to structural ...give me a break...seriously..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    See... I don't mind nerfs so much as Gimping. WoW did this recently when they tore the whole game apart and rebuilt it. My mage was pimped out before, and then Blizzard decided to GIMP all his skills and stats, it drove me nuts and I quit the game for good. So long as I actually have a choice in the skill tree, I don't really care about nerfing. So long as STO doesn't do what WoW did I think STO will be fine with little nerfs here and there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    tbh, I do not see them sticking around for a long time, save of science vessels who run low wepaons power.

    most other ship captains will soon realise their dps output is dropped by a far margain because of the loss of a weapon slot. For that reason I am not useing them, they are to random, do no damage and are easily countered if target wants to.

    Beside that the ships who are hit the worst by them are escorts who should carry APO III and polarise hull in the first place, seeing tractors have always been an issue to them. Just means they might actualy need to hit and run a bit more often.

    For a science there are several ways to deal with them, a cruiser that has not loaded up scatter volley or FAW is not being a team vessel anyway, clearling small stuff is what they are good at, lave the spike damamge to escorts.

    Only thing I do thing is bad:

    They stay around for far to long, reduce their activity time by a good bit, or make them go boom once the owner is 20k+ away. That way they do not pull you down while there is no one around anyway, or drop you out of cloak for no other reason than to annoy you.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Well...I have this much to say regarding changing of skill effects ingame. If the skill in question only hampers one thing (like carrier pets and scorpion fighters and the old gravity well) improve the item suffering. Don't nerf the skill hampering it across the board...that will only further derail the game. As in the example I stated eariler...Gravity Well was nerfed to please the Carrier pet crowd at the cost of making GW near useless for PVE. So what do the devs do? They retool GW from the ground up. The simple solution of increasing pet impulse strength was abviously too difficult to pull off :rolleyes:. This should be a lesson to the devs... nerfing only increases your workload...it doesn't decrease it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    One of the problems with the tractor mines are the graphics don't work. So you can have polarize hull, plus this and that, but you can't see what is effecting you.

    I couldn't imagine what it's like in PVP with a lot of players spamming them. With so many different players and targets. It would almost be impossible to find what is holding you.

    I have seen some players say they think they lagged out because the effect is similar. They introduced something that makes players think they are lagging yay.....? I thought the same thing in the vault that I had lagged out.

    It's like they can't learn from their mistakes. Post after post about the holds in ground combat. People actually rage quit and players abandoned ground combat because of them. Then they introduce multiple hold spamming in space combat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Liandras wrote:
    tbh, I do not see them sticking around for a long time, save of science vessels who run low wepaons power.

    most other ship captains will soon realise their dps output is dropped by a far margain because of the loss of a weapon slot. For that reason I am not useing them, they are to random, do no damage and are easily countered if target wants to.

    Beside that the ships who are hit the worst by them are escorts who should carry APO III and polarise hull in the first place, seeing tractors have always been an issue to them. Just means they might actualy need to hit and run a bit more often.

    For a science there are several ways to deal with them, a cruiser that has not loaded up scatter volley or FAW is not being a team vessel anyway, clearling small stuff is what they are good at, lave the spike damamge to escorts.

    Only thing I do thing is bad:

    They stay around for far to long, reduce their activity time by a good bit, or make them go boom once the owner is 20k+ away. That way they do not pull you down while there is no one around anyway, or drop you out of cloak for no other reason than to annoy you.
    It isn't always necessary to bring staight-forward DPS. DPS is necessary to apply "pressure" and keep your enemy using heals, so you can spike him when he has getting low on heals. But the Science Vessel can contribute to either (not necessarily both at the same time) with the right powers.

    The "Charged Particle Burst Tri-Cobalt bomber" works just fine with low energy levels. All you use beams for is to disable subsystems (engines, shields and aux preferred usually). No need for weapon power. You use CPB and Tachyon Beam to (help) drain the enemies shields and burst him with Tri-Cobalts, possibly prepared with Photonic Shockwaves so he cannot react with BFAW or heals.

    Of course there are Science Vessel builds that work well with high weapon power. For those, losing DPS to mines might seem unwise.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    GREAT! To add to all of this:

    just to make a point about their hatred for the weapon. The whinners are using the weapon to bully other people into hating it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Sometimes, nerfs are a good thing.

    Anyone remember the ridiculously long match lengths just after the Season 1.2 power changes? anyone remember when RSP was the "go-to" power in PvP?

    Sometimes nerfs are good, sometimes they're bad.

    Some nerfs are designed to make the game more fun; others are due to complaining; sometimes it's a mix of both.

    I haven't used RSP in like...six months :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Liandras wrote:
    Beside that the ships who are hit the worst by them are escorts who should carry APO III and polarise hull in the first place, seeing tractors have always been an issue to them. Just means they might actualy need to hit and run a bit more often.

    Funny you should mention that. I just happen to have been doing this for quite some time:

    http://rookbytes.com/theta9/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/GameClient-2011-02-27-18-19-40-28.png

    :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    B3RTLE wrote:
    Yeah my Cruisers are pretty much flying explosions in space due to the ner***e going on...

    Seriously ...last pvp match I died within 2minutes of fighting...against 2 ships with 5 shield heals/buffs/resists and 5hull heals/buffs/resists and 2 armor resists ... it was all useless because I was waiting on cool downs ... the cruisers are supposed to be the tanks that last a long long time through the match unless they have sustained weapons fire on them by more than 1 ship even if its escorts...

    STOP NERFING EVERYTHING CRYPTIC!!.... why the hell does everything gotta be on a stinking shared timer?

    Even the best hull heal/resist has been nerfed.... Aux to structural ...give me a break...seriously..

    I'm with this guy all the way. Its frakking annoying to nerf most of the things without thinking it through! There wasn't any reason for cruisers to get nerfed!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    It's pretty easy to set up chain heals in a cruiser, you have to pick abilities that don't have shared cooldowns. For instance, do you really expect to be able to use two engineering teams at the same time? No, just make sure you get an eng team, and aux to SIF, hazard emitters, miracle worker, and make dang sure you're using damage resist devices/abilities.

    No, abilities as they are right now are quite good...power to shields makes shields harder. Power to weapons makes them hit harder. Power to engines and aux do their intended job. Healing and cleansing abilities are the most useful they've ever been.

    The BIGGEST issue with PvP right now is the spam, and the devs have taken serious notice about this and have said they're going to give the whole system a tweak so we don't have mine clouds like we do now.

    They've also un-nerfed the spinal lance on the Galaxy-X and they made gravity well what it should be. I guess I'm not sure what the issue is...nerfs come about because people find something aggravating or out of balance.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    When it takes 4 people focus firing a cruiser for 20 minutes in a 4 to 1 battle to finally kill said cruiser it's time for a nerf. My Fleet mate did this in his Star Cruiser.

    I am just glad they are not INVULNERABLE like they were before.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    ThetaNine wrote:
    I haven't used RSP in like...six months :p

    Funnily enough, I recently started using it again, on my healing Cruiser. The simple reason for using is that I spend most of my resources healing others - if I happen to be the sudden target of focused fire, RSP gives me a little more breathing room.

    That said - not all nerfs are necessarily well-handled and lead to interesting or satisfying gameplay mechanics for the "nerfed" power. There were a ton of interesting and good ideas for how RSP could be changed, but we got the possibly most boring variation. But the game is still more fun now then it was with the old, so it's stil a net win.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    As someone who was here from the beginning, if you'd like to go back to the various ways PVP was effed up over the past year you have a very short memory.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines and Cryptic Studios Infraction Policy ~WishStone
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    dorko1 wrote: »
    GREAT! To add to all of this:

    just to make a point about their hatred for the weapon. The whinners are using the weapon to bully other people into hating it.

    If you're going to insult people, you might at least learn to spell the insult correctly.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Instead of crying about a nerf, why not adapt like everyone else?

    And I don't know what the deal is with that guy and his cruiser, but I just switched from escorts to cruisers and I have no problems. If ANYTHING needs to be de-nerfed, its the effing escort classes before we start crying about skills which, we all know deep down inside, were overpowered. And the people who then get into fits about a nerf or re-balancing are usually the ones who were abusing it in the first place.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    They took an arguably overpowered skill and balanced it for pvp but ruined it for pve. It went from "must have" to "take it off of every ship you own". These are the reasons I continue to push for skills/items/etc. to work differently in pvp than in pve. I'm not for any skill being an I win button. But I'm against skills being gimped to the point where they clearly are not a valid choice anymore. The Vo'Quv in pve for example. Great going killing a whole ship choice there. And the answer to gimping the Vo'Quv to reduce pet spam was to give everyone pet spam. That seems counter-intuitive at the least.

    Way past time to nerf things only for pvp as a start and then look at the skill/item/ship for pve separately. It's not like the dev team never plays pve and can't tell for themselves whether something needs adjusting there. Right now it's pvp balance overriding fun for everybody else, when we have 100 people doing pvp regularly out of 100,000. And forgive me if I don't believe in the altruism of the pvp community in balancing things properly for everyone in pve. They often hate pve already. We've had sci ships gimped, then finally buffed slightly to make them a valid choice for pve, after months, we've lost the Vo'Quv, we lost RSP, we lost other skills along the way, we're going to lose tractor mines, then fighters, all on the altar of about 100 people at the top tier of pvp. Way past time to change that.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    dorko1 wrote: »
    ...
    These people just wrote up an exhaustively long thread about nerfing cloaking mines that started not even 2 hours after the thing was released. 2 hours?! How do you know how well something is going to be adapted into the game after less than 2 hours, less than 1 hour for most since you had to complete the episode to get it!

    Pvp is not fun, because it's been nerfed to death. Because some guy sees some inconvenience that he doesn't bother training the BO to deal with and cries Nerf because his set up that he's been running since god knows when is 1337 next to every one else's and he can't handle not rocking it out better than every one else.

    These people you refer to are the same people who have been here since before launch. These people have already thought-tested the CTM before it came out. These people put those thought-test to use and within 2h, yeah, we knew it was bad.
    dorko1 wrote: »
    These people aren't even reading the arguments about how that reduces one more weapon or how they can just use polarize hull and update their strategy, they just cry.

    I like the idea of the cloaking tractor mines, why should I be punished for somebody who can't adapt to one little weapon?
    These people are the ones who came up with the OP use of the item. One weapon slot means nothing to me in my cruiser I already have 5 beams and a dual dedicated to DPS. Looks like I've got two open slots for, hmmmmm, two CTM launchers. You need to play a PvP against a coordinated team that is using the spam-factor. You'll understand.
    Englebert wrote:
    I couldn't imagine what it's like in PVP with a lot of players spamming them.

    You don't want to, but if you do you can have a go at TRIBBLE. aka. Spam or Bust. :p
    dorko1 wrote: »
    GREAT! To add to all of this:

    just to make a point about their hatred for the weapon. The whinners are using the weapon to bully other people into hating it.

    No, we're using it to demonstrate our point. Again, please refer to TRIBBLE. (or any premade) and they'll demonstrate for you.
    rohbier wrote: »
    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines and Cryptic Studios Infraction Policy ~WishStone.

    It's not the n00bs crying. It's the ritual PvPer who are voicing their opposition to the item.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    PvPers like the ships they are flying as well, so it doesn'T matter if they hate PvE or not. They can't "nerf" you for PvE if they don't nerf it for PvP as well.

    But how do you determine something is balanced or not without PvP? Would a Super-Phaser Cannon that instantly destroys entire Borg Cubes be a real problem for PvE? Maybe someone would complain there is no reason to play anything but the super-phaser-cannon ship.

    The only point where people really complain about balance issues for PvE is overpowered enemies that one-shot you, or ridicidilous Zerg Fest Raids. But the opposite direction - do people really complain stuff is too easy and suggest changes? Yeah, I hear it for the Borg (but I also hear a few opposing voices), but there clearly the expectation is different - the Borg are expected to be OP and unbeatable... Unlike every other race.

    But how many complain that Klingon NPCs ships are lame-sauce? I mean, this is supposedly our major enemy currently. The ships seem to have the most generic and boring powers. The only thing vaguely intersting are the BoPs that occassionally cloak ineffectually.

    I would argue that the changes to PvP could have made PvE worse - they made it too easy. I find it hard to believe there is anything in a regular mission that could threaten a Cruiser build for "tanking" or healing. The PvP enabled Cruiser is full of self-defense skills that have to deal with 3-4 enemies focusing fire on you - and survive. There aren't any NPCs in this game that can approach this degree of firepower. Possibly not even at Elite difficulty!

    Switching to Champions Online was almost a shock for me! Suddenly there were dangerous and difficult enemies for my Single Blade Archetype toon! Of course, I am still wet behind the ears... But I noticed that I get the interesting and motivating mix of frustration and successes that I expect from a good game. I can't claim the same for PvE.

    Ultimately often imbalances are irrelevant for Solo PvE. If you're just playing your Captain and ship, you got nothing to compare yourself to. But once you add additional players, balance becomes important. It matters whether anyone wants to have your Captain type and your ship in an STF, or if you can get the trophy and item reward for a Fleet Action.
    If you actually have to beat other players in a direct fight, balance becomes even more important.

    But - there is only a minority of players regularly involved with Raids or PvP. So it's no surprise that most people just see the nerfs the PvP community brings.

    But there weren't just nerfs ...

    Some PvP Buffs:
    • Shield Power Grants up to 35 % Resistance.
    • Hazard Emitters grants more healing then before
    • Transfer Shield Strength finally provides its initial larger healing and a significant heal over time
    • Auxillary to Structural Integrity Field was considerably buffed
    • Emergency Powers can be chained perfectly and Emergency Power to Shields is a significant resistance buff
    • Beam Fire At Will used to effect only a single beam
    • Science Ships got the Sensor Analysis Power and +15 Auxillary Power instead of +10 (and even before the Science Powers were slaved to Aux, Science Vessel PvE was the slowest)
    • Charged Particle Burst shield drain was increased
    • Tachyon Beam shield drain was increased

    Would any of this have been necessary for PvE alone? Would the great cooldown mechanical overhaul worked out so well in Season 2 without an active PvP community?

    Today, almost all powers and abilities are actually useful, and the PvP communtiy is always suggesting how to improve the final few ones that still are not.

    Yes, we also got a lot of stuff nerfed and changed. But the goal is to make all the various powers and equipment pieces useful. But none of them overpowered.

    What only is left to do for the rest of the community - find some champions to finally give the NPCs some teeth, and not just some boring hit point sponges with the occassional instant-kill-crit possibility at higher difficulty levels - actually make those encounters dynamic and challenging.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Maybe they could let people create PVP matches with custom rule sets. Like I could start up a PVP match with Science ships only, and mines turned off. People could see that match when they open the PVP window and join it just like they could any other match.

    They could give us options to set what type ships would be allowed, what weapons would be allowed, etc.

    That way the whiners could play PVP in cruisers with everything but phaser beam arrays turned off, and everyone else could play normal PVP.
Sign In or Register to comment.