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Ah Hah! I found it!

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
So in all these forums of hate towards the excelsior and constitution. One of the number one brought up arguments is that the constitution is no longer a active star fleet vessel. Well your wrong. You were all wrong. In the Episode "Best of both worlds Part II" when the Enterprise is passing through the graveyard of defeated ships. You can see the wreckage of a Unnamed Constitution class vessel. Here is a quote from Memory Alpha which can be verified from the DVD text commentary from Star Trek II search for spock.

"The ship or ships in question can be seen in two different FX shots. The first is a glimpse of a badly-damaged saucer section, and the second is a that of the secondary hull. The two parts appear in different portions of the scene, which would indicate either two different vessels, or one ship that was cut apart by the Borg or that performed a saucer separation maneuver. Behind the scenes sources indicate the model used for both shots was that of the self-destructed Enterprise made for Star Trek III: The Search for Spock."
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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Aquillies wrote: »
    So in all these forums of hate towards the excelsior and constitution. One of the number one brought up arguments is that the constitution is no longer a active star fleet vessel. Well your wrong. You were all wrong. In the Episode "Best of both worlds Part II" when the Enterprise is passing through the graveyard of defeated ships. You can see the wreckage of a Unnamed Constitution class vessel. Here is a quote from Memory Alpha which can be verified from the DVD text commentary from Star Trek II search for spock.

    "The ship or ships in question can be seen in two different FX shots. The first is a glimpse of a badly-damaged saucer section, and the second is a that of the secondary hull. The two parts appear in different portions of the scene, which would indicate either two different vessels, or one ship that was cut apart by the Borg or that performed a saucer separation maneuver. Behind the scenes sources indicate the model used for both shots was that of the self-destructed Enterprise made for Star Trek III: The Search for Spock."

    nice find. unfortunely i knew about it lol
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    at best it's a canon fodder ship they threw at the enemy to delay them for few seconds before it was 1 shot destroyed
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The constitution is probably used as a training type of ship. Similar to how navies try to train sailors on sail boats.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Aquillies wrote: »
    So in all these forums of hate towards the excelsior and constitution. One of the number one brought up arguments is that the constitution is no longer a active star fleet vessel. Well your wrong. You were all wrong. In the Episode "Best of both worlds Part II" when the Enterprise is passing through the graveyard of defeated ships. You can see the wreckage of a Unnamed Constitution class vessel. Here is a quote from Memory Alpha which can be verified from the DVD text commentary from Star Trek II search for spock.

    Yes, and there was a Consitution seen during the war with the Dominion war as well.

    But the thing is, those were reserve ships brought out of mothballs and there aren't many left. But in STO, these are technically new ships. Now some players can say their Consitutions was brought out of mothballs or saved from being scrap, which is perfectly okay.

    As for the Excelsior, she's been refitted and kept up with the times. However, the Sovereign is supposed to replace her as the frontline warship. (Which is ironic in-game since the Excelsior is more deadly than the Sovereign. :rolleyes:)

    All in all, they all play out nicely in the means of events. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Aquillies wrote: »
    So in all these forums of hate towards the excelsior and constitution. One of the number one brought up arguments is that the constitution is no longer a active star fleet vessel. Well your wrong. You were all wrong. In the Episode "Best of both worlds Part II" when the Enterprise is passing through the graveyard of defeated ships. You can see the wreckage of a Unnamed Constitution class vessel.

    Oh nice! I don't think I ever noticed this before. Thanks for the post :D
    Azurian wrote: »
    As for the Excelsior, she's been refitted and kept up with the times. However, the Sovereign is supposed to replace her as the frontline warship. (Which is ironic in-game since the Excelsior is more deadly than the Sovereign. :rolleyes:)

    All in all, they all play out nicely in the means of events. :D

    Feds need a level 51 Sovereign-R with increased hull, turn and a 4/1/4 weapon layout. That's right...4/1/4! The middle one would be a 360 degree torpedo turret.

    It's time you Feds get something awesome for your Sovry :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Oh nice! I don't think I ever noticed this before. Thanks for the post :D



    Feds need a level 51 Sovereign-R with increased hull, turn and a 4/1/4 weapon layout. That's right...4/1/4! The middle one would be a 360 degree torpedo turret.

    It's time you Feds get something awesome for your Sovry :D

    It should be a console, like on the Advanced Escort Refit, that innates HY3 and allows for a 180 degree firing arc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    It should be a console, like on the Advanced Escort Refit, that innates HY3 and allows for a 180 degree firing arc.

    Oh wow that's even better!!!! Great idea :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    There still exists no Precedent for a T5 Constitution. :rolleyes:
    But it does justify the constitutions existance as a T2 ship. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Oh yea...good ideas for the Sov....lets keep em coming.....personally i would love a better turn and tac ability....which is what it is seriously lacking.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    There still exists no Precedent for a T5 Constitution. :rolleyes:
    But it does justify the constitutions existance as a T2 ship. :p

    Haha you make a very valid point! But I really think tiers are a bit goofy anyway. I think all ships should have access to T5 BO layout. Just allow the ability to increase stats to some degree. The Connie might never have a +45k hull...but it could have a 30k with better turn.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    My story behind the Miranda and Constitution in the game is that.....IT is a time of war ans those ships are cheaper to make and faster to produce. I am currently reading Star Trek Enterprise: The Romulan War and in there they are building the older Daedalus class ships because of those same reasons. Yes I know, it is not canon but it makes sense to me.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    True enough, but those older ships are never going to be nearly as capable as new ships.
    Old ships are generally just cannon fodder.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    wrote:
    True enough, but those older ships are never going to be nearly as capable as new ships.
    Old ships are generally just cannon fodder.
    Yep, useless 40 year old ships like the Prometheus class should be mothballed.:rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    CapnBludd wrote: »
    Yep, useless 40 year old ships like the Prometheus class should be mothballed.:rolleyes:

    40 years is not old for a ship. :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    40 years is not old for a ship. :rolleyes:

    According to you, I say 80 years isn't old, someone else will have a different number. Point is you decide your favorite isn't old, and yes we all know what ship your favorite is.;)

    In the real world the USAF still uses a design that is closing in on 65 years old because it works. Look up the B-52. An old design doesnt necessarily mean the build is old.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    Old ships are generally just cannon fodder.

    Come on. Are you telling me that in this utopianesque society that they would condemn Starfleet crew to death by putting them on ships they KNOW will be destroyed?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Come on. Are you telling me that in this utopianesque society that they would condemn Starfleet crew to death by putting them on ships they KNOW will be destroyed?

    Mmmm let me think about that..... Yes.
    Go back and watch DS9 and see fighters and Miranda class ships being popped left and right.

    There is nothing Utopian about war.
    In war every ounce of firepower is needed, and thus you throw everything you got into the fray.
    Heck, in First Contact we even have a pathetic Oberth class ship fighting the Borg.
    But in peace time small ships like Oberth's, Miranda and Nova class ships would never be sent directly into a very hostile situation.
    CapnBludd wrote: »
    According to you, I say 80 years isn't old, someone else will have a different number. Point is you decide your favorite isn't old, and yes we all know what ship your favorite is.;)

    In the real world the USAF still uses a design that is closing in on 65 years old because it works. Look up the B-52. An old design doesnt necessarily mean the build is old.

    Yup, but do you see any B-29's left in service? :p
    And i think its already been established that anything within 100 years is well within reason.
    But people keep getting the ridicolous ideas of all ships being T5 worthy, which is just pure nonsense.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    Yup, but do you see any B-29's left in service? :p
    And i think its already been established that anything within 100 years is well within reason.
    But people keep getting the ridicolous ideas of all ships being T5 worthy, which is just pure nonsense.

    Thank Abrams for that. A Constitution that is on par with a Defiant or Prometheus is a lot more logical than an unarmed mining ship that gets refitted to the Mk II self-repairing Scimitar.:p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Well the NX is in the game now and is a replica of the original. So totally new tech, new everything. It could be made into a T5 Escort. It's about the right size for that.

    The Connie could be the same thing....a replica. Since it is small, I see no reason that it would be a cruiser...but it could be a sci/tac ship.

    Take a look at these two links (Here and Here) these look almost the same but have a 50 year gap in tech and construction. No reason the Connie can't be the same. Weren't there only a handful of Connies made? Sounds like it would have to be a replica anyway.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    meh more cryptic designs plox... we have enough retrofit wannabes :eek:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Why do people keep pulling up the pointless examples of recreational cars. :rolleyes:

    Let me know when the army starts building new or retrofitting Sherman tanks. :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I still don't buy the 'replica' argument. There's probably good reason why Starfleet stopped making ships shaped like the NX and original Constitution. And before you give me the "shape doesn't matter in space" have a look at Voyager. If shape didn't matter, why did they bother adding all the extra machinery to make its nacelles move? Seems like a waste to me, unless the shape does indeed matter (no canon reason is given, but a technical manual somewhere connects it to the warp speed limit thing in TNG IIRC)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I still don't buy the 'replica' argument. There's probably good reason why Starfleet stopped making ships shaped like the NX[...]

    There's a tiny bit of a problem with that. The NX is an upside-down Akira.:D The moving nacelles of the Intrepid were supposed to be less damaging to subspace, however that idea was dropped for all other designs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    Why do people keep pulling up the pointless examples of recreational cars. :rolleyes:

    Let me know when the army starts building new or retrofitting Sherman tanks. :rolleyes:

    My link was merely an example of taking an older design and bringing it back to the present. The military Humvee is still in use today and is based on a 30 year old design. The USS Iowa was commissioned in 1943 and although now part of the reserve fleet it is still ready for battle.

    "On 17 March 2006, the Secretary of the Navy exercised his authority to strike Iowa and Wisconsin from the NVR, which has cleared the way for both ships to be donated for use as museum ships, but the United States Congress remains "deeply concerned" over the loss of the naval surface gunfire support that the battleships provided, and has noted that "navy efforts to improve upon, much less replace, this capability have been highly problematic." As a partial consequence, Congress passed Pub.L. 109-163, the National Defense Authorization Act 2006, requiring that the battleships be kept and maintained in a state of readiness should they ever be needed again. Congress has ordered that the following measures be implemented to ensure that, if need be, Iowa can be returned to active duty:

    1. Iowa must not be altered in any way that would impair her military utility;
    2. The battleship must be preserved in her present condition through the continued use of cathodic protection, dehumidification systems, and any other preservation methods as needed;
    3. Spare parts and unique equipment such as the 16-inch (410 mm) gun barrels and projectiles must be preserved in adequate numbers to support Iowa, if reactivated;
    4. The Navy must prepare plans for the rapid reactivation of Iowa should she be returned to the Navy in the event of a national emergency."

    *added*

    Either way, none of this matters cause the T5 Connie will be a brand new ship.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    Why do people keep pulling up the pointless examples of recreational cars. :rolleyes:

    Let me know when the army starts building new or retrofitting Sherman tanks. :rolleyes:

    The M1 Abrams is intended to be in use until at least 2050.. 70 years
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

    Modern platforms are meant to last longer and longer. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    K-Tar wrote:
    There's a tiny bit of a problem with that. The NX is an upside-down Akira.:D The moving nacelles of the Intrepid were supposed to be less damaging to subspace, however that idea was dropped for all other designs.

    That's actually incorrect, other classes did contiue the evolution of safe warp fields. Intrepid was just one of the first. The Defiant was built with angled necelles standard for the same reason. By the time the Sovereign was introduced starfleet engineers had developed new warp coils that solved the problem without the need for the angled necelles. Saber Steamrunner and Akira all had angled necelles as well.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    CapnBludd wrote: »
    The M1 Abrams is intended to be in use until at least 2050.. 70 years
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

    Modern platforms are meant to last longer and longer. :)

    Ding!
    Same goes for newer starships like the Galaxy and Sovereign, they are meant to last longer and longer. :cool:
    Old ships like the NX(which is completely obsolete in every way imaginable) and the Constitution have long outlived their shelf-life.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    My link was merely an example of taking an older design and bringing it back to the present. The military Humvee is still in use today and is based on a 30 year old design. The USS Iowa was commissioned in 1943 and although now part of the reserve fleet it is still ready for battle.

    "On 17 March 2006, the Secretary of the Navy exercised his authority to strike Iowa and Wisconsin from the NVR, which has cleared the way for both ships to be donated for use as museum ships, but the United States Congress remains "deeply concerned" over the loss of the naval surface gunfire support that the battleships provided, and has noted that "navy efforts to improve upon, much less replace, this capability have been highly problematic." As a partial consequence, Congress passed Pub.L. 109-163, the National Defense Authorization Act 2006, requiring that the battleships be kept and maintained in a state of readiness should they ever be needed again. Congress has ordered that the following measures be implemented to ensure that, if need be, Iowa can be returned to active duty:

    1. Iowa must not be altered in any way that would impair her military utility;
    2. The battleship must be preserved in her present condition through the continued use of cathodic protection, dehumidification systems, and any other preservation methods as needed;
    3. Spare parts and unique equipment such as the 16-inch (410 mm) gun barrels and projectiles must be preserved in adequate numbers to support Iowa, if reactivated;
    4. The Navy must prepare plans for the rapid reactivation of Iowa should she be returned to the Navy in the event of a national emergency."

    *added*

    Either way, none of this matters cause the T5 Connie will be a brand new ship.

    Color me ignorant but that makes no sense to me, while I love battleships and hope to one day visit one of the museums I don't understand why Congress would ever want to bring them back into active service. What can an Iowa do that can't be accmplished with fighters bombers and guided missiles?

    ANYWAY that has nothing to do with this discussion really. Why the heck would Starfleet spend resources to build a new version of an old ship when they have dozens of new very capable models to fill any role under the sun? On the flipside why would they spend those same resources to refit an old ship like that when they ahve newere designs that are far more capable.

    I hope to never see a tier five connie but cryptic will do what they want. That's just my personal opinion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Alexraptor wrote: »
    Ding!
    Same goes for newer starships like the Galaxy and Sovereign, they are meant to last longer and longer. :cool:
    Old ships like the NX(which is completely obsolete in every way imaginable) and the Constitution have long outlived their shelf-life.

    You keep only seeing what you want to, modern meaning today's real world things are meant to last longer and longer, so in the imaginary world of star trek with the imaginary new metals and other things available, things will last even longer. Ding!:rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Either way, none of this matters cause the T5 Connie will be a brand new ship.

    Still again, with all the flaws and limitations of the original ships which lead to the design being canned. :rolleyes:
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