I know I'm going to get flamed for this, however, at this point I don't much care. The argument I've heard most often for not having the light cruisers, available at T5 is that "a TOS Constitution should never be able to compete with a Sovereign".
Well, now we have the T5 B'rel and I have not seen anyone complain about this classic ship "braking" the game. Even with the new cloak I don't see it as overpowered, cause you still have to fire your energy weapons to drop the shields of your enemy before your torpedoes are effective.
The way I see it, Cryptic no longer has any excuse NOT to give us a way to have ALL of the lower ranked ships available for anyone to use at V.A. rank.
Im just hoping that Cryptic doesnt drop them all into the C-store and call it a day. Rather, Id like to see a way for the lower ranked ships to rank up with you the way shuttles do.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, however, at this point I don't much care. The argument I've heard most often for not having the light cruisers, available at T5 is that "a TOS Constitution should never be able to compete with a Sovereign".
Well, now we have the T5 B'rel and I have not seen anyone complain about this classic ship "braking" the game. Even with the new cloak I don't see it as overpowered, cause you still have to fire your energy weapons to drop the shields of your enemy before your torpedoes are effective.
The way I see it, Cryptic no longer has any excuse NOT to give us a way to have ALL of the lower ranked ships available for anyone to use at V.A. rank.
Im just hoping that Cryptic doesnt drop them all into the C-store and call it a day. Rather, Id like to see a way for the lower ranked ships to rank up with you the way shuttles do.
in all honesty, a good way to make all T5 fed ships T6's (the upcoming standard), would be to give them all the enhanced T5 Brel cloak, i think. Every single fed ship. Hands down.
The B'rel is also canonicly a much much larger ship than the TMP BoP's
In fact Canon B'rels are even larger than the constitution class.
Unlike Starfleet the Klingons build simple and durable hull designs, while starfleet builds newer and better but ultimately disposable and hulls that get outdated very fast.
Well the b'rel has actually been competitive with modern high powered in the ships in the show. They often engage the defiant in ds9, though they are a little more fragile then the defiant.
It spans from the TOS time to after TNG. Always in the dominion battles in ds9. More common then the KVort.
Well the b'rel has actually been competitive with modern high powered in the ships in the show. They often engage the defiant in ds9, though they are a little more fragile then the defiant.
It spans from the TOS time to after TNG. Always in the dominion battles in ds9. More common then the KVort.
Canonicly the B'rel has only appeared once in Star Trek.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, however, at this point I don't much care. The argument I've heard most often for not having the light cruisers, available at T5 is that "a TOS Constitution should never be able to compete with a Sovereign".
Well, now we have the T5 B'rel and I have not seen anyone complain about this classic ship "braking" the game. Even with the new cloak I don't see it as overpowered, cause you still have to fire your energy weapons to drop the shields of your enemy before your torpedoes are effective.
The way I see it, Cryptic no longer has any excuse NOT to give us a way to have ALL of the lower ranked ships available for anyone to use at V.A. rank.
Im just hoping that Cryptic doesnt drop them all into the C-store and call it a day. Rather, Id like to see a way for the lower ranked ships to rank up with you the way shuttles do.
maybe because the Bird of Prey was still active in the Dominion War and was on one level with the Defiant Class... while the Constitution was never shown outside of the movies and TOS, therefore it has to be oooold?
...but this game has gone from a semi-realistic future to a *but i want to roleplay that i'm captain kirk from the mirror universe*-kinda ....thing.
You know *roleplay* whatever era you want to, instead of one immersive fitting together universe.
I don't say thats a bad thing... personally i hated pretty much all the *new* Ships created by Cryptic but i geek out if i see an Oberth Class properly done.
That's just the way it is, i don't need the Star Trek license to play with random Spaceships.
But i don't want to see a Constitution class shooting a Sovereign Class to bits either, that would just be wrong.
maybe because the Bird of Prey was still active in the Dominion War and was on one level with the Defiant Class... while the Constitution was never shown outside of the movies and TOS, therefore it has to be oooold?
...but this game has gone from a semi-realistic future to a *but i want to roleplay that i'm captain kirk from the mirror universe*-kinda ....thing.
You know *roleplay* whatever era you want to, instead of one immersive fitting together universe.
I don't say thats a bad thing... personally i hated pretty much all the *new* Ships created by Cryptic but i geek out if i see an Oberth Class properly done.
That's just the way it is, i don't need the Star Trek license to play with random Spaceships.
But i don't want to see a Constitution class shooting a Sovereign Class to bits either, that would just be wrong.
What? I mean look. If you took the design of a car from the 50's and filled it with todays technology, should it not run circles around a 10 year old car?
Canonicly the B'rel has only appeared once in Star Trek.
Sorry, they don't specifically label it every time you see it but you know it when you see it, a lot. In TOS it was just in the movies. St3,4,5,6. It's the same general model in TNG for the larger version, the KVort, but in size comparisons we still see the smaller Brel a lot, especially in ds9. They just don't specifically state what class they are beyond a bird of prey, typically. Maybe they say it's a d-14 or whatever every now and then, but that is more of the specific model of the Brel.
What? I mean look. If you took the design of a car from the 50's and filled it with todays technology, should it not run circles around a 10 year old car?
yeah, and if I recall right, the explanation is that these aren't even the old constitutions, but are created by modular hulls that make it easy to mimic the appearance.
You know back a few months ago I would should against this, however I amw illing to have people take their mirandas to tier 5 ont he condision I can do the same with my captain's yacht.
The B'rel was only named "once" in all of Star Trek.
In the TNG Episodes Rascals, where her size was shown to be a little more than half the size of a Galaxy class starship.
So no, majority of the smaller BoP's are definitely NOT B'rel class, Regardless of what fandom and soft canon wants to say.
What? I mean look. If you took the design of a car from the 50's and filled it with todays technology, should it not run circles around a 10 year old car?
The B'rel was only named "once" in all of Star Trek.
In the TNG Episodes Rascals, where her size was shown to be a little more than half the size of a Galaxy class starship.
So no, majority of the smaller BoP's are definitely NOT B'rel class, Regardless of what fandom and soft canon wants to say.
Didn't know the Technical Manuals and the ST Encyclopedias were soft canon.
Unless we have contradicting cannonical information, all smaller types of BoPs were B'Rels and the Cruiser-sized ones were K'Vorts.
D-7 Class at tier 5 killing Vor'Cha's and Negh'Var ?
it would just be wrong.
and if you come in here with the *upgrade* argument, i suspect you are fine then if we implant a Galaxy Class Warpcore in your TOS interrior C-Store pack.... and LCARS instead of buttons? no?
Didn't know the Technical Manuals and the ST Encyclopedias were soft canon.
Unless we have contradicting cannonical information, all smaller types of BoPs were B'Rels and the Cruiser-sized ones were K'Vorts.
Tech Manuals and Encyclopedias have never been considered to be canon. :rolleyes:
Especially not when Canon contradicts them, and in this case canon states that B'rel class BoP's are large ships, not small.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, however, at this point I don't much care. The argument I've heard most often for not having the light cruisers, available at T5 is that "a TOS Constitution should never be able to compete with a Sovereign".
Well, now we have the T5 B'rel and I have not seen anyone complain about this classic ship "braking" the game. Even with the new cloak I don't see it as overpowered, cause you still have to fire your energy weapons to drop the shields of your enemy before your torpedoes are effective.
As much as I want a T5 TOS Connie, this isn't a real good argument. The B'rel retrofit was intended, as announced, to be a recreation of the ship from ST VI. Which would make it about the same vintage as the Excelsior class. And we have a T5 Excelsior refit.
My argument for the T5 TOS Connie is much like the ones above in the thread. Technology gets smaller as it advances, not bigger. Anything you can fit in a T5 Defiant, you can fit in a TOS Connie shell.
I know I'm going to get flamed for this, however, at this point I don't much care. The argument I've heard most often for not having the light cruisers, available at T5 is that "a TOS Constitution should never be able to compete with a Sovereign".
Well, now we have the T5 B'rel and I have not seen anyone complain about this classic ship "braking" the game. Even with the new cloak I don't see it as overpowered
The way I see it, Cryptic no longer has any excuse NOT to give us a way to have ALL of the lower ranked ships available for anyone to use at V.A. rank.
Im just hoping that Cryptic doesnt drop them all into the C-store and call it a day. Rather, Id like to see a way for the lower ranked ships to rank up with you the way shuttles do.
Cryptic made it so it's the only cloak (the ONLY cloak) that will decloak you w/o your shields if any type of heal hits you. Can you say hazard emitter fun time?
I fly the heghta right now, and would gladly switch to a Brel (with its less HP and less console) if I can have the normal battle cloak of my heghta.
As much as I want a T5 TOS Connie, this isn't a real good argument. The B'rel retrofit was intended, as announced, to be a recreation of the ship from ST VI. Which would make it about the same vintage as the Excelsior class. And we have a T5 Excelsior refit.
My argument for the T5 TOS Connie is much like the ones above in the thread. Technology gets smaller as it advances, not bigger. Anything you can fit in a T5 Defiant, you can fit in a TOS Connie shell.
Sure, if you want it to tear itself to pieces. :rolleyes:
Remember the Defiant is an extremely compact build, and it almost tore itself apart in its trial runs.
A connie would not stand a chance with that kind of high powered tech in her flimsy spaceframe.
Plus i should add that the notion of Technology getting smaller and not bigger simply is "not true".
It is true that computer tech keeps getting smaller in the real world.
However, other technology like Jet engines are A LOT larger than their piston engine predecessors and are actually getting "bigger".
Just as more advanced and higher performance car engines are actually larger than the engines found in most roadcars today.
And if one goes even more back then old engines like the T-Ford's engine is tiny compared to your average modern car.
Not everything can be shrunk, and some things that get better get bigger, not smaller.
Sure, if you want it to tear itself to pieces. :rolleyes:
Remember the Defiant is an extremely compact build, and it almost tore itself apart in its trial runs.
A connie would not stand a chance with that kind of high powered tech in her flimsy spaceframe.
Plus i should add that the notion of Technology getting smaller and not bigger simply is "not true".
It is true that computer tech keeps getting smaller in the real world.
However, other technology like Jet engines are A LOT larger than their piston engine predecessors and are actually getting "bigger".
Just as more advanced and higher performance car engines are actually larger than the engines found in most roadcars today.
And if one goes even more back then old engines like the T-Ford's engine is tiny compared to your average modern car.
Not everything can be shrunk, and some things that get better get bigger, not smaller.
that's nice,but you're still ignoring that it's explicit that in the STO timeline, the Starfleet Corps of Engineers have developed modular hulls so that Starfleet can design whatever ship it needs for the task. The "retrofit connie" is not a retrofit connie, but an entirely new hull made to look as such, perhaps out of nostalgia.
Sure, if you want it to tear itself to pieces. :rolleyes:
Remember the Defiant is an extremely compact build, and it almost tore itself apart in its trial runs.
A connie would not stand a chance with that kind of high powered tech in her flimsy spaceframe.
Because its impossible to make a Connie-shaped ship, 200 years later, out of different materials? There's no logical reason why they couldn't make a ship with T5 engines, shield, and weapon technology with the size and appearance of a TOS Connie. There just isn't. There are smaller ships with that technology. There are ships roughly that shape with that technology.
In terms of the 'why' they would want to, we have to be a little flexible, but I find making a few 'tribute' vessels a lot more believable for Starfleet than...oh...I dunno...no longer requiring uniforms.
that's nice,but you're still ignoring that it's explicit that in the STO timeline, the Starfleet Corps of Engineers have developed modular hulls so that Starfleet can design whatever ship it needs for the task. The "retrofit connie" is not a retrofit connie, but an entirely new hull made to look as such, perhaps out of nostalgia.
It looks like a connie hull, it is a connie hull.
Wether its modular or not its still subject to the very same stress and forces, every design has its limitations. :rolleyes:
Thus if built out of exactly the same materiasl the Defiant hull will always be stronger and more durable than a connies hull.
Because its impossible to make a Connie-shaped ship, 200 years later, out of different materials? There's no logical reason why they couldn't make a ship with T5 engines, shield, and weapon technology with the size and appearance of a TOS Connie. There just isn't. There are smaller ships with that technology. There are ships roughly that shape with that technology.
In terms of the 'why' they would want to, we have to be a little flexible, but I find making a few 'tribute' vessels a lot more believable for Starfleet than...oh...I dunno...no longer requiring uniforms.
Of course not, thats why we have a Tier 2 connie that can slot Mk XI equipment.
Else it would not have a place in STO period.
It looks like a connie hull, it is a connie hull.
Wether its modular or not its still subject to the very same stress and forces, every design has its limitations. :rolleyes:
Thus if built out of exactly the same materiasl the Defiant hull will always be stronger and more durable than a connies hull.
But then there's another problem, you're assuming that it's built to be the destroyer that the Defiant truly is. Why can't the connie be built to be more of a swiss army knife of the future?
Besides all of that, excepting the larger neck, the connie model isn't far off from design next to the sovvie. That being said, the connie hull design should be able to perform similarly or at least would not be that bad of a design in the first place else Starfleet obviously would have eliminated the design long, long ago.
I don't think it matters much, because people trying to restrict what other people want in game obviously aren't the ones buying the old ships in the C-Store and the dollar does trump a lot of arguments.
That being said, one of the bigger problems I have with leveling up a ship isn't the amount of weapons as much as it is the lack of BO powers. There's a lot of things that make sense, like less weapons for a smaller vessel, but less BO powers? That doesn't make sense that the crew that has grown with you in rank and intelligence or at least technical know-how wouldn't be able to do more.
Also, it would be nice if there was a way to show changes on the outter hull when you modify say a Connie so that you can have all these extra weapons, but there's a look that at least leaps to explain. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.
Comments
On a side note, the reason nobody has complained about the Bre'el T5 being OP is because Feds got it nerfed into useless before it came out. :P
in all honesty, a good way to make all T5 fed ships T6's (the upcoming standard), would be to give them all the enhanced T5 Brel cloak, i think. Every single fed ship. Hands down.
See all you feds in PVP!
In fact Canon B'rels are even larger than the constitution class.
Unlike Starfleet the Klingons build simple and durable hull designs, while starfleet builds newer and better but ultimately disposable and hulls that get outdated very fast.
It spans from the TOS time to after TNG. Always in the dominion battles in ds9. More common then the KVort.
Canonicly the B'rel has only appeared once in Star Trek.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the [URL=" http://forums.startrekonline.com/announcement.php?f=70&a=2"]Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines[/URL] GMMeeko
...but this game has gone from a semi-realistic future to a *but i want to roleplay that i'm captain kirk from the mirror universe*-kinda ....thing.
You know *roleplay* whatever era you want to, instead of one immersive fitting together universe.
I don't say thats a bad thing... personally i hated pretty much all the *new* Ships created by Cryptic but i geek out if i see an Oberth Class properly done.
That's just the way it is, i don't need the Star Trek license to play with random Spaceships.
But i don't want to see a Constitution class shooting a Sovereign Class to bits either, that would just be wrong.
What? I mean look. If you took the design of a car from the 50's and filled it with todays technology, should it not run circles around a 10 year old car?
Sorry, they don't specifically label it every time you see it but you know it when you see it, a lot. In TOS it was just in the movies. St3,4,5,6. It's the same general model in TNG for the larger version, the KVort, but in size comparisons we still see the smaller Brel a lot, especially in ds9. They just don't specifically state what class they are beyond a bird of prey, typically. Maybe they say it's a d-14 or whatever every now and then, but that is more of the specific model of the Brel.
it does ruin the immersion. I don't feel like i'm in 2409, i feel like i am in a a mish mash of everyone's wierd dream (my wierd dream included)
yeah, and if I recall right, the explanation is that these aren't even the old constitutions, but are created by modular hulls that make it easy to mimic the appearance.
The B'rels are listed at 150m long, the TMP Consitution is 305m long.
Where you get that from? In TNG, DS9, and even Voyager, the smaller BoPs were B-rels, while the larger ones were K'Vorts.
Expressionists vs Restrictionists, Expressionists always win in MMO's because they aren't restricting others play with their opinions.
In the TNG Episodes Rascals, where her size was shown to be a little more than half the size of a Galaxy class starship.
So no, majority of the smaller BoP's are definitely NOT B'rel class, Regardless of what fandom and soft canon wants to say.
http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20070223/1960Corevette_540x317.jpg
vs.
http://2011corvette.us/bimages/2011corvette_c7_2.jpg
...i don't think so.
Didn't know the Technical Manuals and the ST Encyclopedias were soft canon.
Unless we have contradicting cannonical information, all smaller types of BoPs were B'Rels and the Cruiser-sized ones were K'Vorts.
D-7 Class at tier 5 killing Vor'Cha's and Negh'Var ?
it would just be wrong.
and if you come in here with the *upgrade* argument, i suspect you are fine then if we implant a Galaxy Class Warpcore in your TOS interrior C-Store pack.... and LCARS instead of buttons? no?
Tech Manuals and Encyclopedias have never been considered to be canon. :rolleyes:
Especially not when Canon contradicts them, and in this case canon states that B'rel class BoP's are large ships, not small.
As much as I want a T5 TOS Connie, this isn't a real good argument. The B'rel retrofit was intended, as announced, to be a recreation of the ship from ST VI. Which would make it about the same vintage as the Excelsior class. And we have a T5 Excelsior refit.
My argument for the T5 TOS Connie is much like the ones above in the thread. Technology gets smaller as it advances, not bigger. Anything you can fit in a T5 Defiant, you can fit in a TOS Connie shell.
Cryptic made it so it's the only cloak (the ONLY cloak) that will decloak you w/o your shields if any type of heal hits you. Can you say hazard emitter fun time?
I fly the heghta right now, and would gladly switch to a Brel (with its less HP and less console) if I can have the normal battle cloak of my heghta.
Thanks Cryptic, cheers.
I wouldn't say it's useless, it does excel as a flying coffin.
Sure, if you want it to tear itself to pieces. :rolleyes:
Remember the Defiant is an extremely compact build, and it almost tore itself apart in its trial runs.
A connie would not stand a chance with that kind of high powered tech in her flimsy spaceframe.
Plus i should add that the notion of Technology getting smaller and not bigger simply is "not true".
It is true that computer tech keeps getting smaller in the real world.
However, other technology like Jet engines are A LOT larger than their piston engine predecessors and are actually getting "bigger".
Just as more advanced and higher performance car engines are actually larger than the engines found in most roadcars today.
And if one goes even more back then old engines like the T-Ford's engine is tiny compared to your average modern car.
Not everything can be shrunk, and some things that get better get bigger, not smaller.
that's nice,but you're still ignoring that it's explicit that in the STO timeline, the Starfleet Corps of Engineers have developed modular hulls so that Starfleet can design whatever ship it needs for the task. The "retrofit connie" is not a retrofit connie, but an entirely new hull made to look as such, perhaps out of nostalgia.
Because its impossible to make a Connie-shaped ship, 200 years later, out of different materials? There's no logical reason why they couldn't make a ship with T5 engines, shield, and weapon technology with the size and appearance of a TOS Connie. There just isn't. There are smaller ships with that technology. There are ships roughly that shape with that technology.
In terms of the 'why' they would want to, we have to be a little flexible, but I find making a few 'tribute' vessels a lot more believable for Starfleet than...oh...I dunno...no longer requiring uniforms.
It looks like a connie hull, it is a connie hull.
Wether its modular or not its still subject to the very same stress and forces, every design has its limitations. :rolleyes:
Thus if built out of exactly the same materiasl the Defiant hull will always be stronger and more durable than a connies hull.
Of course not, thats why we have a Tier 2 connie that can slot Mk XI equipment.
Else it would not have a place in STO period.
But then there's another problem, you're assuming that it's built to be the destroyer that the Defiant truly is. Why can't the connie be built to be more of a swiss army knife of the future?
Besides all of that, excepting the larger neck, the connie model isn't far off from design next to the sovvie. That being said, the connie hull design should be able to perform similarly or at least would not be that bad of a design in the first place else Starfleet obviously would have eliminated the design long, long ago.
That being said, one of the bigger problems I have with leveling up a ship isn't the amount of weapons as much as it is the lack of BO powers. There's a lot of things that make sense, like less weapons for a smaller vessel, but less BO powers? That doesn't make sense that the crew that has grown with you in rank and intelligence or at least technical know-how wouldn't be able to do more.
Also, it would be nice if there was a way to show changes on the outter hull when you modify say a Connie so that you can have all these extra weapons, but there's a look that at least leaps to explain. Suspension of disbelief only goes so far.