This isn't you're typical thread bashing Cryptic for lack of Klingon PvE content. As a PvPer I don't much about PvE except for leveling alts. This is about the obvious anti-Klingon bias that Cryptic has been displaying when it comes to PvP. This bias becomes very clear when looking at what has been happening with ships.
- Due to whining on the forum, B'rel was nerfed into uselessness. When it came to live it was useless and laughable. Now people point and laugh and roll their eyes at people who bring this pathetic vessel into combat. We know the B'rel sucks, Cryptic knows the B'rel sucks, yet they do nothing to balance it!
- Not so with the galaxy-x which is being buffed into awesomeness.
- In comparison, the Carrier suffered a trinity of massive nerfs all at the same time. The Nerf that shows the most bias is hanger efficiency -- when sci powers were changed to work off of aux power, *75* power was chosen to give the base effect. For whatever reason, the aux power needed to attain the old base rate for launching fighters is *100*. Why the inconsistency? whimsically picking numbers out of thin air or just hating on Klingons some more?
- The Varanus had it's turn rate increased but lost hull points to compensate.
- But the various Fed science ships gained hull or had their turn rate increased without losing the other. The Nebula got both and suffered no negative counter balancing. Why?
- Implementation of the passive science vessel skill showed massive bias IMHO. Between the Vulcan, Intrepid, and Nebula science ships the feds have the best sci ships in the game. Klingons flying the Varanus are a very rare bunch.
- Despite having subsystem targeting and obviously being meant as a science vessel at the start of the game, carriers are no longer sci ships now as they don't get sensor analysis. Again, more illogical inconsistency on the part of Cryptic that always seems to be unfavorable for Klingons!
- Excelsior vs. Vorcha. These two ships are clearly meant to be analogous, but the handling of both again shows a bias against Klingons. Unlike other ships, neither loses a console slot. The Vorcha gets a nice turn rate while the Excelsior gets an amazing boff selection thanks to the LT. Cmdr tac slot (having different cmdr. and lt cmdr. slots is always a superior set up to having two of the same because of redundancies) Yet, for no apparent reason the Vorcha loses a good chunk of hull and a device slot while the Excelsior doesn't.
- Klingon's still don't have efficient boffs putting us at a distinct disadvantage against federation players who have ships full of them. This in particular is something that should have been addressed *weeks* after launch.
- The best ability in the game, the Intrepid's ablative armor was deemed by the vocal PvP community and Cryptic themselves to be OP. But instead of fixing it, they lowered both the duration *and* the cooldown. This actually made things worse, since 15 seconds is more than enough time to heal and resist-up a team member and the more often this can be done the more powerful the ability becomes.
- Last but not least -- the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak, the Advanced escort MVAM version. The boff layout (cmdr. tac, lt. tac, ensign tac, lt eng, lt. cmdr sci) basically gives it 90% of the versatility of the Bop without any of the drawbacks. This ship has way more hull than a BoP, more weapons than a BoP, more boff stations than a BoP, more tactical consoles than a BoP, and a kickass ability that can take up a much less valuable sci slot (at the least it should NEED to take up a tactical slot). This ship in it's current iteration is by far the best escort in the game, with nothing else coming close. The feds now have the best cruisers, sci ships, AND escorts in the game and it reeks of imbalance
Now to be fair, I don't think Cryptic really hates Klingons. I think that there might be subtle bias in place that Cryptic themselves might not even realize that makes them act the way they do. Whether it be certain clueless players whining about Klingon OPness, or the devs themselves playing more as feds, or just plain 'ole wanting to appease the majority, it's here, it's real, and I've had enough. I don't think you can read and comprehend this post without realizing that there is something horribly wrong here, and I hope this thread opens a great number of eyes to what the Klingon community has had to put up with all of this time.
Comments
The clear imbalance in ships is probably meant to make up for the overall imbalance in skill and experience, but that is little comfort to the few KDF players remaining in the game.
Perhaps instead hunting for "cool kid" points you could respond to and discuss some of the issues that I've raised. It's all laid out nice and organized for you to pick apart at your choosing.
(the rest of the whine, whilst only viewed from the fed side, sounds about right to me, so I cannot offer input.)
I would have to agree, just reading through this list, that there are several things going on in game right now that aren't exactly the most balanced mechanics when it comes to Fed vs. KDF PVP matches. Also, I doubt Cryptic has a "bias against" Klingons. Assuming such would be silly; no one wants the Klingon faction to succeed more than Cryptic does. Right now, STO is a MMO that seems to have more like a "bonus faction", but not actually a true equal that could stand toe to toe with its opponent as an equal in content here, and they're well aware of it. If would only benefit them, the game, and their subscriber base if they could get Klingon content to be just as beefy, bulky, and meaty as Federation content. And in my opinion, with 15 extra PVE episodes thanks to these Featured Episode Series, they're on their way to doing that.
When it comes to ship imbalancing, however, I think the matter is simply that they're trying to do several things here:
The good news is that an MMO is never a finished product, and is constantly in development. With luck, Dan is awake right now reading this post, and will take these things into consideration. Until then, I suggest everyone reading go make a Klingon character, play the sorties, and experience the Fek'Ihri episodes, as they are by far some of the best content in this entire game.
2. It's not, it's just another cruiser with an extra forward-shooting weapon and cloak, both of them give it hard first punch, but that's about it. The turn rate is still abysmal, vorchas can run in circles around them.
3. Carrier and petspam was overpowered to the level of being pointless to fight before. Petspam was horrendous. Now I'd say it's balanced. There are STILL unkilleable carriers - ran into one yesterday in Arena (IKS Ghost I believe), took 4 feds to take it down.
4. Seems like an ok tradeoff.... ? It STILL has more HP then the retrofitted Intrepid
5. Because Nebula wasn't sci-viable, it was flown by engineers who turned it into tanks.
6. ....because nearly every klink ship has cloak.... which is in klink eyes perfectly fair of course
7. Games evolve. Live with it.
8. Whoa... it's probably not that tiny little factor that Vorcha has a bloody CLOAK and can equip cannons...
9. Sure, we play with full eff BOFF crews (30 mil a piece, all ugly Saurians - can't klinks buy one off C-Store too?)
10. Not sure how to react on this... lots of people say it got nerfed to hell, but I am not a sci pilot
11. Duhhhh... hrrrrrrm.... combat cloak? Like... bops leaving combat whenever they feel they're gonna getting their asses kicked? I welcome this change. The life of bops will get a bit harder from now on, you'll actually have to DO something to win, other than sci spam.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~Stormshade
I like the direction that STO is headed for everything except faction balance. This is an incredible game and I will continue to play exclusively Klingon. But everyone has a breaking point where a game stops being fun. I hope we stop trying to find that point for those that play Klingon.
I know that there are differences between the factions and that is a source of friction for many. They have universal slots, they have albative armor, they have better cloaking, their Bridge Officer layout is better, they get fighters, etc. I know it is difficult to evaluate many of these facets because they don't exist in isolation. But if you look at the give and take, the trade offs that are made to gain advantages, there is a growing discrepancy.
Heh, for getting a chuckle out of me, I shall say well played, sir.
Klingon players, having to rely WAY MORE on pvp to level up, become WAY BETTER in terms out skill in pvp. They support each other better, they work better as a team, than Fed players do. This leads to massive imbalances in pvp combat. When Fed players are consistently being slaughtered 15-0 or at best 15-2, it's not fun. Alot of us play this game to have fun. I speak from experience when I say the best matches are the ones that end 15-13 or even 15-14. Even if my team lost. I would rather play a close match than a slaughter match, regardless whether I win or lose. But that doesn't happen much anymore.
Most Fed players are sick and tired of being slaughtered like that, so if we do pvp, it's not that often.
I'll give you an example of a match I was in with my Fed SCI.
I went into a space pvp match. All the gear on my ship is MK XI or better, and all of it is Uncommon or better. I also have the full Borg set.
It was a 5 on 5.
All five Klingon players had carriers. We lost 15 to nothing. Two of the Klink carriers literally dealt 0 damage by the time it was over. But each healed their teammates in excess of 5 million damage EACH. Between 2 people, they healed almost 11 MILLION damage on their teammates. When your ships and your actual personal skills let you do that in a match, yeah, it becomes really unballanced, and really unenjoyable.
Oh yes, this match took place AFTER the "nerf" as you put it to Klink carriers.
There's a reason Fed players ***** about this. PVP should be a nice break for Fed players to get away from the grind of the missions. Especially since a good deal of the missions we face are the same thing redone over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and......you get the point.
But it translates into few Fed players ever doing pvp, and some of the ones who do, are either dumb or taking advantage of the system. More than once I've seen a Fed Player join a pvp match and than simply sit there because there's no way they're going to win, and yet they still want the medals so they can get gear.
Also, to point out some facts about what you stated...
The Galaxy X as it is now is in alot of cases useless. The Phaser Lance has a long cooldown and a narrow firing arc. I do not know the exact specs on it. But I do know that a standard phaser beam array will seriously outdamage it due to the long cooldown with the phaser lance. Also, the Galaxy X, like all other High tier cruisers, turns like a dead pig. Combined with the weapons narrow firing arc, it becomes really hard to bring this weapon to bear on the way more maneuverable klingon ships. Add THAT to the long cooldown, and the fact that the lance takes up a weapon slot, and the lance becomes useless.
Already adressed this.
Less Fed players going into pvp means longer wait times for Klink players to get a pvp match, and the longer it takes said players to level up.
The more time it takes Klink players to level up, means less people play Klingons. Which means less people playing the game.
Less Fed players who do pvp, and finish all missions and either quit or take a break from the game, means less people playing the game.
Less people playing the game means it gets shut down.
Cryptic is aware of this. When they adjust something one way or another, they are attempting to adjust it so more people are having fun and keep playing the game.
Ultimately, Cryptic will do what they feel is best for the game. If that involves "balancing pvp" so to speak, than they will do it. While it may drive away some players such as yourself, it will keep more people playing the game, and probably even bring in more people than it drives away.
Okay, I'll bite:
I actually agree with you that the Bre'el, Vorcha, and Varanus could use a little love. The Vorcha and Varanus especially should be as equal as possible to their Fed counterparts; it's only fair.
Carriers? lol, we all know they got nerfed for a reason. Let's not get into that one.
The MVAM Prometheus though, sorry, but in the same way I agree that the Vorcha and Varanus should be buffed to equivalency, I also think it's only fair for Feds to have a BoP-style escort. The latest iteration of the MVAM Prommie is a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one - and IMO, much-needed. Cruisers have a ship type which sacrifices a main BOff type Lt. Cmdr for a secondary department Lt. Cmdr (Excelsior), Science got theirs (Nebula), and it is completely right that Escorts should also receive the same option.
If I were you I'd just be glad it's not a Lt. Cmdr. Engineering slot.
So sure, yes, absolutely, improve some of the ships you listed. But be careful not to stray into "QQ!! NERF!" territory. Leave that type of stuff to Azurian.
Always here to entertain. BTW I love your podcast. Last "nerdrage of the week" made me laugh seriously.
Really ? to me the galaxy X will still be a joke compared to what it is in the tv show.
It says the galaxy is Mass 4,960,00014 metric tons and in STO a BOP what ever can still pop all that mass in 2-3 seconds.Doesnt make the players feel much heroic i say to see it explode like a balloon all the time.
response in blue
1. Yes there is. Make it a skin for Heghta with a regular combat cloak. Shooting main weapons while cloaked is overpowered in every sense of the word.
2. It's not OP at all. It's an engineering ship. The spike you complain about is a joke, because the ship can have neither AP:O nor CRF:II, that are both needed for serious first punch.
3. It was. Most of community agreed on that, even devs agreed on that. You switch reason and result. The reason for the nerf wasn't the crying of the feds, it was the carrier being overpowered. The crying was just a result. Especially the pet spam. That was the pain problem. Too strong and too many pets. And yes engineering defiant can tank nicely. Unlike the tactical one, which I fly.
4. As I said, some fed ships (namely Nebula) were unusable for SCI pilots, because of being squishy. Intrepid alone has ONE ability that keeps it survive longer. Doesn't help much against burst, massive debuffs etc. of sci-spammer bops. It's just fine now.
5. It is now.
6. Well that's Klingon problem, not a game problem - if someone is dumb enough to run around in a BoP without a cloak, he'll lose (actually such tools influence these threads a LOT - just as tools, who fly Defiants without bothering to cloak, give Defiant pilots bad rep.) Why should we be EXPECTED to lay mines? I don't like mines. I don't like pet spam either. You are victim of prejudices yourself.
7. -skipped-
8. Unlike Galaxy, Vorcha can at least bring them to bear. Now it'll get even.
9. Oh come on - 4 efficient BOFFS = like 120-160 MIL. That's silly. Noone does that. But okay, fine... give efficient boffs to klinks too. I agree.
10. TSI? Never heard of 'em.
11. Everyone? Like... my escort has universal BOFF slots? Or high-lvl sci slots? Riiiiiight...
Yeah right, like klingons are OP. Have you even got a Klingon to LG? EVERY klingon ship except the carrier, has less HP than it's Fed counterpart. Couple that with turning increases that were supposedly the sacrifice they had for their bigger hull strength & you might begin to see why klingons are mad, we're flying sub-par ships compared to your super armored intrepid 2 of every 5 ships I see in pvp are intrepids. Even in FvF I feel something is horribly wrong about the fact that intrepids can tank as well as Galaxy Class ships. That's like a coast guard cutter outgunning a battleship.
PvP Balance Anti-Klingon Actions:
1.
Now Carrier fighters were reduced because they were too "spammy," yet two weeks later every ship klingon or fed is spamming scorpion fighters like there's no tomorrow. So let's get this straight, apparently everyone gets to spam fighters except carriers, despite that being a carriers purpose? So it definitely wouldn't be favoritism if we nerfed fighter capacity on a one sided ship like a carrier while increasing it on the other right?
2.
The Guramba AKA The Claw is a sub-par escort on the klingon-side, it has no cloak, it's special is now worse than the Gal-X, it is turn debuffed when charging teh lazorz and has significant warnings that it is indeed ready to fire or charging. It is a sub-par escort, while the Gal-x is an awesome cruiser.
3.
To anyone who points to our universal BO slots and cries OP, let me just say this, for almost any ability setup a bird can perform there is a fed ship, which has more hull and does the same thing.
Additional Non-PvP
1.
Pre-released Foundry Missions
There were 2 for klingons, 4 for feds. No explanation for the disparity from Cryptic.
2.
Few uniform choices for most klingon characters
3.
STF bug fixes on Fed side were not implemented on Klingon side in many cases.
4.
Where's our delta flyer, type 8 shuttle, & D'kyr support craft equivalents?
Uh, yea.... We're done here.
Edited due to moderation warning.
Don't forget the Vulcan ship. But do realize that your post only strengthens this point made by another:
If we end up with enough ships to have every possible Boff combination under the sun, then what exactly is the point of piloting the BoP and dealing with it's disadvantages? The MVAM is the most offensive to Klingon players simply because it has the capability of doing what the majority of BoP setups out there do -- only better.
did you even bother to read my post?
Yes but most of those ships that can match the BoP's BO arrangement cannot due anywhere close to the damage the BoP can. Maybe they have more hull strength. But the bird of prey can mount Dual Heavies and the skills to go with them. Sure, any fed captain can have a tac bridge officer with cannon skills, but unless theyre flying an escort or the galaxy x which can never bring its cannons to bear, the skill becomes useless
This shouldn't NEED an explanation, but I'll provide it for you. More people play Feds. Therefore more people create content for the Fed Side.
They are working on this. It's been stated multiple times.
No idea, my klink can't do STF's yet. But they STILL need to fix them on both sides.
You have a type 8 shuttle. It's the equivalent to the klink shuttle. As for the others, probably because theres no reference to anything like it in Star Trek Canon. At best, you have soft canon, which bears liscening, and is damned expensive to obtain.
You're going to dismiss someone simply because they haven't heard of a specific fleet in a game with literally thousands of fleets.
That's rather narrow minded.
I also notice you have had nothing to say about any of the comments I've made. Either you haven't bothered to read them, or you chose to ignore them. Whereas I have read yours. And replied under the presumption you were not just trying to cause trouble.
I have no idea what you talk about - wasn't me for sure. Our fleet is one of the biggest in the STO and most of the officer staff is VERY good. Funny
I think that's rather irrelevant. There are a huge number of sucky feds, for sure. But there are just as many, if not more, good feds than good Klingons. And Klingons are becoming more and more PvE oriented as well. Using this as an excuse to treat Klingons worse is just wrong.
It seems you're equating good gear with being a good PvPer, let me tell you that nothing could be further from the truth. And while those Borg Shields look great on paper you're better off with resilients or covariants. Otherwise you become very squishy in practice.
You also could have lost 15 to nothing to all Vorchas. Or all Intrepids. Or all BoPs. Pre-nerf all carrier teams were already fail, as many can attest to. If you have five slow slow moving ships cross healing each other then take out the cross healing. Repulsors works excellently in this situation.
Again, I'm not saying the Galaxy-X didn't need to get a buff. I'm pointing out the inconsistency between the Gal-X and the B'rel. The horrible thing here is the B'rel fix isn't hard. Changing it so friendly heals don't take it out of cloak changes it from a worthless liability to a somewhat underpowered niche ship at the very least.
Hope that clears things up, and I hope that you feel better now that I've taken the time to address your post!
BALANCE BALANCE
its about. the thing is most people don't even pvp. to balance the game around it is silly
its about time those Klingons who want to spam abilities on a small ship get what they dish out.
I know some who talk so much smack but cant fight one on one. thats just terrible and dishonorable
to have a ship that matches the BOP and its abilities has been a long time coming.
The nerf to the B'rel was implemented because of the fact that a BoP could decloak and pop any ship with one volley. I was an engineer in a cruiser. Covariant shields, best weapons i could get, captain skills geared towards hull repair and hull strength. A BoP would decloak right behind me and pop me in less than 2 seconds.
I do not think they nerfed it as hard as you feel they did. 1 on 1, I would probably go toe to toe with most Klingon players while in my escort and them in a BoP. While my ship might be slightly superior, they're experience in pvp compensates for that.
As for the whole carrier battle I used as an example, I used that as an example to say that despite the nerf, a team of carriers is literally unkillable You say repulsors negates they're support ability, but unless everyone on the Fed side has repulsors on their current BO, it's not going to change much.
If there are way more good feds than Klingons, then why does the Fed team almost always get slaughtered?
As for the Borg gear, I will personally attest to the fact that I prefer it over Covariant shields. My VA is a Sci character in a sci ship. In 1on1 pvp, I do much better with the Borg gear, as the regenerative shields and regeneration sequencer have made me practically unkillable. 1on1 I've never been killed while using this gear. Even in that carrier battle I mentioned, when all 3 of the carriers actually fighting were all focused on me, it would take them several minutes to kill me, so I've had no reason to change my gear.
As for losing 15-0 vs all vorchas, or all BoP's, it happens all the time, and it sucks. And not just to me. It happens to the majority of Fed players, which is why they don't do pvp.
Its only OP when you want it to be. These new set-ups to the federation ships are quite fair. Keep most new PVP players from being popped in .5 seconds and scream more balance than most of the shinanigans that goes on in the OrganizedPVP channel's extensive flaming rounds.
I can tell you from experience that federation players want to TRY pvp. new ones would even be happy with 1 or 2 kills and it seems not all that entire PVP fleets are willing to teach them or they don't have the time because of something called "Real Life".
There are a few Klingon's that actually want to be fair to the new pup's on the fed side coming out. It's only a matter of asking them if they can help you train with them.
Also a little off topic: Firefox auto-corrects "Klingon's". Which means at least they don't hate them ;P
Don't forget that if said Prometheus is running in actual MVAM mode, it's going to be sacrificing hull and shield HP to put itself in the same position of "disadvantage" as a BoP. But of course, it's an optional/voluntary disadvantage, so I guess if you wish you can disregard that as a point.
More important, the BoP does get the major advantage of Cloak and Battle-cloak. Now I realise it's a tired old argument about "OMG KLINKS CLOAK", and one typically wheeled out by Fed scrubs. I'm not saying it's in any way OP. Cloaking is NOT "OP" as some ignorant Feds like to whine. But it *is* an advantage. And for any Escort, it's a very, very significant tactical advantage - not just for the damage buff to push your alpha up, but for the obvious benefits of undisturbed positioning, preparation, and target selection.
I've been one of the minority of Fed Escort PvPers who've stuck with the Advanced/Fleet even after the rest of the masses flocked to the Defiant-R so they could enjoy the advantages of cloaking. And trust me, it's not an easy time to be one of the few Escorts on either side in a match who can't cloak - it's just begging to be constantly picked out and targetted. In a very real sense, we (Adv/Fleet Esc players) are the ones with a major disadvantage here - all the other squishies on either side are running around with cloaks, while we have to sit there with a huge bullseye painted on us.
That's a disadvantage which will remain. I'm considering the Lt. Cmdr. Sci slot as fair compensation for that disadvantage. Because let's face it, the actual MVAM mechanic itself is largely a useless gimmick for PvP (much like the Galaxy-R's saucer separation). Turn Rate and Speed is nice, but nothing that can't already be achieved normally through intelligent skills/consoles/power settings.
At least now it's actually just about worth the cash.
KDF, leet Pvpeeps think replace
OP made me lol hard, go KvK there is also ground... here is some more friends
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=204828&highlight=headcount
And you also get pets that pop attack patterns. Being able to pick which piece you command helps with variety as well as confusing the enemy.
Agreed. Although I don't think the BoP benefits from alpha-strike cloaks as much as the Raptor or Defiant becuase of lack of tac slots, consoles, and rear weapons. Sure, you can throw a cmdr. and lt cmdr. tac in there, but then you're better off in an escort anyway. The strength of the BoP isn't insane damage, but the ability to do decent damage along with something else.
In your case, we target your because you are Valentine Fox. That's what paints a bullseye on you. Although obviously lack of cloak doesn't help. Good teams are aware of their non-cloaking escorts and are quick to heal them. In some cases knowing that damage will most likely be focused in one place is a good thing. Admittedly, that is only ever really beneficial when there is only one non-cloaking escort.
Again, MVAM does more than just make you faster and squishier. But it's not MVAM I have a big beef with, it's the BO arrangement on the ship. This is coming from a BoP pilot who tries to avoid running and cloaking if at all possible after the battle is engaged. If this ship was available on Klingon side I would switch to it in a heartbeat.