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Selling Energy Credits for Atari Tokens - is this allowed?

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Now we can gift Atari Tokens to other players, this leads to a rather interesting business strategy.

An enterprising player could offer other players a sum of Energy Credits as reward for being gifted a bunch of Atari Tokens. An exchange rate is already in place, given the current Cryptic-approved market for skill point boosters. 1 Hour Skill Boosters worth 500 AT = about 1,500,000 EC on the Exchange.

Before I cash in on my many months of Exchange abuse, I just wanted to know if this was actually within the rules.

This could blow the whole RMT black market out of the water if it's sufficiently legit. Cryptic will win out on this, as the money remains in their coffers, just passed from one player to another.

If this IS legit, then why not take the next step and give these Virtual Atari Token cards an in-game presence, so they can be directly traded on the Exchange?

It worked for CCP and PLEX, so why wouldn't it work here?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Exchange prices hardly reflects the dev's decided value of an item. The prices you see on the exchange is what players feel its worth.

    Anyway, I believe it is against the rules though I could be wrong. You're best bet would be to read through the legal terms, or perhaps a dev will answer.

    I doubt we'll see Atari tokens in the game though. They are a good inflow of money for Cryptic and Atari which I'm sure they don't want to get rid of.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    As long as you dont post about it on the forums, I think its fine :o
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    attilio wrote: »
    Exchange prices hardly reflects the dev's decided value of an item. The prices you see on the exchange is what players feel its worth.

    That's why putting the Virtual Token Cards in game will be the best thing. Let the market decide the value, rather than exploitative chumps like me! ;)
    Anyway, I believe it is against the rules though I could be wrong. You're best bet would be to read through the legal terms, or perhaps a dev will answer.

    Given that law (or at least the EULA impression of law) moves slower than progress, I'm kinda hoping a Dev will pop in to confirm or deny.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    As long as you dont post about it on the forums, I think its fine :o

    That's the problem - marketing!

    There's no difference between a legit player selling ECs for ATs in Zone Chat, and some ne'er do well spamming links to a spyware-addled website. Either way will get Report Spammed to permasilence.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This proposal is clearly a violation of the the 'Terms of Use' statement...
    10. Ownership/Selling of the Account or Virtual Items. Cryptic does not recognize the transfer of Accounts. You may not purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, or offer to purchase, sell, gift or trade any Account, and any such attempt shall be null and void. Cryptic owns, has licensed, or otherwise has rights to all of the content that appears in the Game. You agree that you have no right or title in or to any such content, including the virtual goods or currency appearing or originating in the Game, Atari Tokens or any other attributes associated with the Account or stored on the Service ("Game Assets"). Cryptic does not recognize any Game Assets transfers executed outside of the Game or the purported sale, gift or trade in the "real world" of anything related to the Game. Accordingly, you may not sell Game Assets for "real" money or otherwise exchange items for value outside of the Game. Any such sale or exchange is a material breach of this Agreement for which Cryptic may (but is not obligated to) immediately suspend or terminate your account.

    http://www.startrekonline.com/terms_of_service
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This proposal is clearly a violation of the the 'Terms of Use' statement...

    http://www.startrekonline.com/terms_of_service

    Thanks for the link, but the exchange will occur entirely within the game. Or at least, the definition of 'The Game' that incorporates the Atari Token mechanism.

    That's the grey area: Does the integrated C-Store and AT currency legally constitute part of 'The Game'? How would this status be affected by the recent UI change to put AT values directly into the game instead of a separate C-Store interface?

    Atari Tokens have no intrinsic value, other than what Cryptic decide they are worth in exchange for other items of no intrinsic value. They cannot be cashed out once assigned to a game account.

    Dev Plz?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Accordingly, you may not sell Game Assets for "real" money or otherwise exchange items for value outside of the Game.

    The Atari tokens are obviously not "real" money. Whether they have value outside the game is debatable. Do they have a PRICE outside the game? Yes. But can they be USED outside the game? No.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The Atari tokens are obviously not "real" money. Whether they have value outside the game is debatable. Do they have a PRICE outside the game? Yes. But can they be USED outside the game? No.

    they can be used with other Atari games
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    The trade needs to be ingame.

    When u trade EC for AT the trade is partly out of the game because u need to gift the AT outside the game in account management.

    There for it is still prohibited under the current EULA.

    But it is weird, the EULA also prohibits u to gift AT outside the game but now u can gift it so legally you CAN do this. The EULA needs to be updated due to the fact u are allowed to gift AT now.

    So basicly u are allowed to gift EC ingame and gift AT outside the game. It is legal.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I am pretty sure this wouldn't be legal.

    Also, I am pretty sure that people do realize such a "trade" wouldn't be enforceable in any way and scamming potential for such transactions is immense. I'd never do it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    You are allowed to gift EC inside the game and now you are allowed to gift AT outside the game so it is legally not debatable if this is allowed or not because it is at this moment.

    If someone ingame decides to give me 10.000.000 EC ingame i am allowed to gift him AT outside the game if i wished that.

    The current EULA prohibits this because its partly out of the game but that's only the part of the AT and that part has now openly been allowed by cryptic.

    So if cryptic does not want this, the will have to update the EULA (hint hint)

    EDIT
    (But changing the EULA for this is also unlikely because then they would have to prohibit to give some EC ingame)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Also, I am pretty sure that people do realize such a "trade" wouldn't be enforceable in any way and scamming potential for such transactions is immense. I'd never do it.

    That's a huge problem, and thank you for bringing it up. It relies on trust between the buyer and seller. Now, I like to think that I'm reasonably accountable for my actions, but I know very few players would want to hand me Token codes for Energy Credits. (Especially as the Credits would require manual delivery due to the subpar mail system.)

    IF such transactions are legal within game rules (and RadjezZ's analysis seems pretty accurate), then perhaps in-game VTCs will be the best way to resolve this final hurdle.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    radjezz wrote: »
    You are allowed to gift EC inside the game and now you are allowed to gift AT outside the game so it is legally not debatable if this is allowed or not because it is at this moment.

    That argument doesnt exactly work, because you are also allowed ti give someone EC inside the game as well as actual cash outside the game. Its when you combine the two that there is a problem.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    As long as both are a 'gift' (with all that implies); it's probably going to be okay.

    BUT remember: They are both 'Gifts'; you are not 'trading EC for Atari Tokens', because if you were, you are no longer 'gifting', you are perfoming an agreed upon trade transaction of EC for Tokens <--- And that's against the rules.

    (The upshot of all this - As others have said, it makes such trade deals un-enforcable; meaning you can't go complaining to a GM or Dev saying "I agreed to 'gift' 5000 EC for 500 Atari Tokens, and I didn't get the tokens..." Reason: A 'gift' is just that - something given with no expection of compensation in return. IF you expect or demand compenstaion then what you're giving is not a 'gift'.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    That argument doesnt exactly work, because you are also allowed ti give someone EC inside the game as well as actual cash outside the game. Its when you combine the two that there is a problem.

    Yeah but cryptic does not help to combine those last two, thats 3 party like gold sellers etc etc. And that's always a real transaction, they do not work on a gifting base.

    They do help with combining the last two and also actual cash is prohibited in any trade by cryptic. AT and EC are marked by cryptic as not actual cash.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    radjezz wrote: »
    They do help with combining the last two and also actual cash is prohibited in any trade by cryptic. AT and EC are marked by cryptic as not actual cash.

    How so? I understand that they are selling Atari points, but how are they "helping" combine the two aspects in question?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    How so? I understand that they are selling Atari points, but how are they "helping" combine the two aspects in question?

    They allow u to gift AT to anyone u want.

    They allow u to gift EC to anyone ingame.

    That is helping alot. Before this, u where not allowed to trade anyting outside the game. So like what u said about its also not illegal to gift real cash outside the game, thats true but but only because it is partly outside the game, so illegal.
    When u gift EC ingame and real cash out of the game it is firstly not supported by cryptic and secondly, despite it are gifts, on one end is outside the game wich was prohibited.

    They are now making a gift outside the game legal (The AT gifting part)

    So technically it is now legal to do this on gifting base, despite the real reason.

    So if they don't want this they need to really brainstorm on how to change the EULA OR judge non checkable actions that are not prohibted by the EULA (but when they do that, what is the EULA worth then?)

    Eitherway, its one heck of a thing to fix (if they dont want it that is). But on the other hand it is not fixable, just like EC selling and buying via 3rd parties

    -

    If u ask me, the best thing is to implement AT into the exchange. It is controllable then, non scammable. Also its more profit for cryptic, certainly not less because all the AT are paid for.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'm gathering more information right now.
    However: I'd strongly advise against it right now. The EULA was quoted on the first page regarding this already. And because I have a feeling I'll get a reply hunting for loop holes: If the CS team decided to use the rules, they will not argue loop holes with anyone. They will move forward by the EULA and TOS - and not ask about "So, what is your take on this while I am suspending your account?".
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    WishStone wrote:
    I'm gathering more information right now.
    However: I'd strongly advise against it right now. The EULA was quoted on the first page regarding this already. And because I have a feeling I'll get a reply hunting for loop holes: If the CS team decided to use the rules, they will not argue loop holes with anyone. They will move forward by the EULA and TOS - and not ask about "So, what is your take on this while I am suspending your account?".

    Understandable but i think the problem now is with the current EULA and the new option to gift AT to people, there is no solid rule in the EULA that forbids this. So the CS team would not be able to suspend an account unless they are following an invisible rule?

    BTW i dont know the whole EULA, only the part that u are referring to in this post so im basing it on that

    Also the current EULA practicly also forbids u to gift AT to people
    .
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    WishStone wrote:
    I'm gathering more information right now.
    However: I'd strongly advise against it right now. The EULA was quoted on the first page regarding this already. And because I have a feeling I'll get a reply hunting for loop holes: If the CS team decided to use the rules, they will not argue loop holes with anyone. They will move forward by the EULA and TOS - and not ask about "So, what is your take on this while I am suspending your account?".

    Thanks for confirming, and for taking the time to gather more information on our behalf.

    At the very least, it shows there's an interest in doing this legitimately. Maybe in-game VTCs could be considered in the future?

    Following the PLEX model, a Code could be redeemed in-game instead of on the website, creating a fully tradable item. This item would grant the same amount of Tokens when used, but the Tokens would only be valid for that particular game. (Similar to the Champions Stipend.)

    This would also reduce pressure on the devs to always consider in-game methods to obtain new C-Store items.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    radjezz wrote: »
    Understandable but i think the problem now is with the current EULA and the new option to gift AT to people, there is no solid rule in the EULA that forbids this. So the CS team would not be able to suspend an account unless they are following an invisible rule?

    BTW i dont know the whole EULA, only the part that u are referring to in this post so im basing it on that

    Lol I'm sure there's a provision in there that they can suspend an account for any reason. If one of them gets a hair in their coffee and are upset enough to suspend some accounts... I'm sure they can. A business always reserves the right to refuse to sell or provide service to anyone for any reason. No one should ever expect they have a right to play this game and that they can challenge it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    How would this even be enforced? The two parties involved would obviously not report themselves, so I'm assuming the only way people would actually get in trouble is if they are standing around spamming.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    This is interesting.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    radjezz wrote: »
    Understandable but i think the problem now is with the current EULA and the new option to gift AT to people, there is no solid rule in the EULA that forbids this. So the CS team would not be able to suspend an account unless they are following an invisible rule?

    The CS team would rightly follow their interpretation of the spirit of the law, not necessarily the letter.

    Once the judgement has been made on an account, it's exponentially harder to get it reversed. The onus is then on the player to prove that the CS agent has acted improperly. EULAs are sufficiently vague to leave a lot of wiggle-room in favour of the service provider, and not so much the customer.

    MMO players are long overdue a Consumer Rights charter.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    biglcny wrote: »
    Lol I'm sure there's a provision in there that they can suspend an account for any reason. If one of them gets a hair in their coffee and are upset enough to suspend some accounts... I'm sure they can. A business always reserves the right to refuse to sell or provide service to anyone for any reason. No one should ever expect they have a right to play this game and that they can challenge it.

    Yeah offcourse there is but we don't want that. Clearity is preferred and fair.

    Otherwise u can change the whole EULA in one sentence; "We can suspend u for anything we want". :P

    an EULA is something that needs to be good. I know alot of games have a crappy EULA. And if u got a crazy lawyer and enough money u could fight alot of stupid decisions of game companies.

    But because of it is not so important and no one is crazy enough to really fight something like that it does not mean an EULA does not need to be real and good.

    Personally i hate it when an EULA is fake and there are invisseble (no really legally valid) rules witch are used.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    radjezz wrote: »
    Otherwise u can change the whole EULA in one sentence; "We can suspend u for anything we want". :P

    LOL I'd totally be like that If I held the ban hammer. That's probably why I'll never have one. I'm not very customer service oriented...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    the problem is, that this indirectly transfers monay to EC ingame and so, you buy "items" via EC, the exchange prices for items will explode.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I hope it's allowed... kind of...

    I don't buy Cryptic Points. I'd like to be able to trade for them. However the side effects might be too horrible to imagine like hugely more expensive items in the Auction Hall.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I hope it's allowed... kind of...

    I don't buy Cryptic Points. I'd like to be able to trade for them. However the side effects might be too horrible to imagine like hugely more expensive items in the Auction Hall.

    That really depends on the game and the ingame stuff.
    I have played games in wich u could also sell stuff for the valuta wich u also used to pay your subscription with and it was perfectly balanced. U could still choose if u wanted to buy it with normal ingame currency or with the other valuta without having to pay insane amounts
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    WishStone wrote:
    I'm gathering more information right now.
    However: I'd strongly advise against it right now. The EULA was quoted on the first page regarding this already. And because I have a feeling I'll get a reply hunting for loop holes: If the CS team decided to use the rules, they will not argue loop holes with anyone. They will move forward by the EULA and TOS - and not ask about "So, what is your take on this while I am suspending your account?".

    Yay, Wishy! \o/ Wishy for Empress of Cryptic!

    (I'm just happy that I have a chance to respond in a thread that you've posted in that hasn't been closed, heh.)

    My (absolutely singular and purely opinionated) take on the whole thing is probably pretty much what you've said. Personally, I'm happy we can gift ATs now, but I'm not going to be looking or thinking of selling either my ATs or ECs for the other.

    Maybe because I've only recently hit the million+ mark with ECs (been playing since CB, but, really, what do I need with millions and millions of ECs? All the stuff I use in the game, while leveling up and at end game, are easier to get through exploration, crafting, or just plain drops), and I try to keep around 400-800 ATs if I can (usually try to keep enough for whatever they have planned on coming out soon that I want, if possible), so I"m not going to be looking in swapping one for the other.

    I'm sure there will be (if not already) some shady, evil, gold seller operation with this, which will probably make it against the rules for others to do it, but I'm just glad we can gift the ATs now. I have a friend that I'm thinking of trying to play, and I know he'll want one or two of the C-Store items, so now I'll be able to get him a cheap copy of the game (or two, for the sub amounts, if they keep the DDE copies as low as they have been) and an AT card to start him off with for his birthday. Hmm, I'll need to remember to have him sign up through the referral program, so I can get my second referral and 400 ATs myself, heh.
    How would this even be enforced? The two parties involved would obviously not report themselves, so I'm assuming the only way people would actually get in trouble is if they are standing around spamming.

    I agree with you, Nagus. Unless they are standing around and spamming (and, frankly, deserve to be busted, lol), I don't really think there would be too much to trace on something like this, anyway. Sure, I suppose if they wanted to monitor who gets ATs and gives out ECs, but I really would rather the team not have to focus on something like that.
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