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Concerns about Season 4's exploration revamp

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
According to the most recent comments I've heard, star clusters are going to become like the Defari system with "known locations, known people that you can go help, daily missions". I have 2 concerns with this: first of all, thats not really exploration. Second, what happens when you play through those missions? Do you have nothing new to explore until new ones are added?

The details discussed above are from this interview, 13 mins in:

http://www.trekradio.net/news/dan-stahl-interview-in-on-demand

Have a listen and then share your thoughts.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Its got to be better then the current grind...exploration is it is is so boring..
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Can I still hunt for Crimto?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    This news is rather troubling for "true" exploration. Though I'm hoping that they can generate several "known" systems for each individual nebula. A fairly large number, say 20, may give the feeling of randomness in exploration. Especially at launch, exploring one nebula will have a 1/20 chance of a "unique" exploration experience for players. This would require a fairly large overhaul though if it's on a similar scale to the Deferi space (About 5 mission in an arc per zone). Though I seriously doubt it would work this way. I can dream though. :D

    But I think it might be a slight step over the current mad-libbed generated ones. Never did understand why those Borg were looking for Third Dynasty relics in the system.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    It sounds like, where we'd be losing that unknown aspect that is essential to exploration, he is hoping that we would benefit from user generated content to make these sectors come to life.

    I think it's a bit of a gamble to be honest. Asking your player base to create new content for the new locations and aliens, sounds kinda lazy to me.

    I think they should go ahead with this idea of new sectors, but keep some of the unknown sectors filled with anomolies just the same. Add a few variations of missions to keep it interesting.

    It's not like the current system is broken or anything, it just requires a few new mission types from time to time.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    ... first of all, thats not really exploration ...

    Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.

    If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.

    I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.

    If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.

    I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.

    Well, I guess my concern would be how many alien species that you could contact would be in each nebula? It takes a lot out of the randomness in exploration if everyone made contact with the same alien race in that particular nebula. It'd be cool the first time around, but the second and third time, people will stop reading the story aspects.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Good find.

    Ugg by all means add this as it will only add to the game. However, that is not exploration. By definition exploring means discovering something or somewhere new. This isn't it.

    There are tons of threads on how to make this better. This direction just doesn't cut it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    don't forget that there is QUITE a fair bit of the galaxy left to cover, i dunno about you guys but there's some unknown regions of space yet covered and not forgetting the gamma and delta quadrants to cover.



    there's plenty of exploration to be had, and it sounds to me that what's being attempted is something roleplayers might be able to sink their teeth into and have something akin to proper player progression in terms of 'boldly going' but giving further depth to what would otherwise be the general cookie-cutter mission templates we've seen in many a cluster mission.

    which boil down to what? a handfull or so archtypes?
    • Hunt the Anomaly 0/5
    • explore abandoned base
    • explore abandoned base /w enemies
    • enemy encounter in space
    • defend colony
    • scan stuff on planet surface, with or without enemies
    • scan series of abandoned vessels
    • 'protect' base or ship from enemies

    forgive me if i'm wrong, guys, but wouldn't adding a little variety and depth be a good thing?
    heck, i'd be even behind the idea of further opening up 'unexplored' regions to be properly explored via plot or somesuch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Well, I guess my concern would be how many alien species that you could contact would be in each nebula? It takes a lot out of the randomness in exploration if everyone made contact with the same alien race in that particular nebula. It'd be cool the first time around, but the second and third time, people will stop reading the story aspects.

    10 races explored by 1,000,000 is quite a lot of exploration.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    mykey1982 wrote: »
    10 races explored by 1,000,000 is quite a lot of exploration.

    Well, as I mentioned above, if they make it like the Deferi Featured Episodes, it will only consist of 5 or so missions that is considered an "exploration" mission. 10 different races, complete with at least 5 in-depth missions in their own nebula comes out to 50 exploration missions per nebula. That's a lot of work on Cryptic's part. This could possibly be alleviated through Foundry missions, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Realistically, when the revamp, if it does come out this way, will only have 2-3 maximum alien races per nebula. It doesn't many how many players go through the nebula, but what I'm trying to get at is, that we need an element of randomness in the exploration revamp that 2-3 exploration arcs per nebula won't cover.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Its got to be better then the current grind...exploration is it is is so boring..

    Agreed the random generated stuff that they have now is so generic that I don't even bother reading the text anymore. No something needs to be done I think. And yes you can explore 'known' space whole solar systems could take years to explore fully (planets, moons, astroids, ort clouds and so forth and so on).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.

    If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.

    I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.

    I think you can have both if there's the opportunity for:

    - More variables.
    - Randomly generated SECTOR BLOCKS that you can save and revisit, with the possibility of unique souvinirs like combat and non-combat pets, weapons, etc.
    - More activities to do per hub.

    My model in my head of revamped exploration is that you arrive at a planet with a problem. Through branching dialogue, you choose a series of five activities out of 15-25 total. Whatever choice you make solves the problem. Every planet you visit has a chance to award diplomatic XP if you make the right 5 choices or a "gift" ala the Aid the Planet missions if you make the right 5 choices.

    Doing a greater variety of things that may include ground in space on a planet and having multiple planets in an area would feel more like exploration to me, with the key thing being a scenario like this:

    The planet is facing an energy crisis.

    You get presented with 5 options to find a power source.

    A rival group intervenes.

    You get 5 options for places to go and ways to deal with them.

    The leader's granddaughter is missing.

    You get 5 choices for places to look for her, all reasonable.

    The power source proves unstable.

    You get 5 options for ways to deal with it.

    The enemy group returns.

    You get 5 options.

    There are so many variables you can seed there. The different "acts" of the story can be random. The local population can be random. The environment can be random. And then because you get multiple choices for each "act" even if you got the same one twice, you could change the course of it. Some options would take you to space and back. Others would never leave the ground.

    You still go to a random place and do 5 things but the combination of extra variables and that each phase gets determined by a choice you make makes it feel like exploration and puts you in command more.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    It may not be in-depth "exploration", but I really enjoy the random star cluster missions and do at least one round of star cluster systems (usually directed to by Jiro Sugihara) daily. I hope that whatever the new exploration stuff ends up manifesting as, we still have a lot of little random stuff to do.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    first of all, thats not really exploration
    When the Vikings came to the Americas and first met Native Americans, the Native Americans disappeared and were never heard from again.

    That's the current exploration model and that's not exploration. We can agree there.

    Persistent exploration areas does help: going to an area and being able to cultivate relationships with factions and NPCs in those areas and then see them develop over time.

    Games like EVE have better exploration that STO and virtually all the exploration there is around known entities. 0.0 sec space is filled with things that persistent even after you leave and turn of the game. You start to get a distinct feel for the various NPC cultures in EVE as you fly around, from the Sansha invasions that spring up dynamically to merely passing through a different culture's space (i.e. the Amarr or Calderi).

    What dstahl suggested from this pre-design interview (this feature is coming after season 4 -or even 5-, so everything is circumspect) is thus:
    1) Create known factions and contacts in areas of exploration clusters.
    2) Create missions around persistent areas. i.e. If i discover a colony and rescue them, they'll remember next time I visit
    3) Integrate the foundry into these systems. Channeling player creations to augment the dailies and any narrative episodes in each sector block.
    4) (not discussed but Territory control could play a part in it)

    Storyline can't really exist comfortably while procedurally generated. Procedural generation would need to be persistent once it creates it for a client (much like Minecraft) for it to work at all. However, as we've seen from the Genesis system (which is a text-based editor for creating those star cluster missions), the current implementation isn't that great, not at all persistent, and difficult to debug.

    The new method suggested sounds like it addresses issues with story, debugging, and persistence that plague the current model. The only weaknesses are that you run out of content (aside from dailies) if either devs or players leave an exploration sector.

    However, the direction and detail such persistent factions, relationships, and characters could add would be phenomenal. Imagine if the places felt different because the flavor and nature of conflict between factions in an area varied. Some exploration clusters might have dominant warring factions while others might weigh heavily toward pre-warp cultures or strange space (like black holes).
    Second, what happens when you play through those missions? Do you have nothing new to explore until new ones are added?
    They could could augment their own dailies and storylines with the following:
    1) Foundry Content - allow users to, if they want, flesh out factions by using known entities and wildcards more in content. Some users may not be good at telling a story but allowing contests for creating persistent zones (like capital cities) or space lines or stations would be phenomenally more rewarding. However, I realize some loathe the idea of users making anything (and that's their prerogative - I don't mind because I know some Foundry missions by other players are better than many of the official ones and I'm here to game not cut that content out to spite my gaming experience)

    2) Procedural generation - although the Genesis system feels lackluster in practice, people have created clever procedural generation in other games (while marrying them to persistent elements). Daggerfall, Minecraft, etc.

    3) Faction reputations - instead of a WoW model of stat progression, players might unlock access to more dailies depending who they side with, unlock more of the lore, be able to visit social areas, etc. that would otherwise be infeasible. Imagine going to an area and being the enemy but, over time, you eventually become trusted enough to befriend your enemy and visit them on that faction's capital. That's one possibility.

    =====

    Honestly, the devs have a lot of feedback they can choose from. Dozens of members in the community have commented on exploration and posted their ideas. I think I have 3-4 different threads myself on the topic, with slightly different flavors (procedural generation, Oregon Trail /Civilization in space, KDF/Territory Control oriented and more.) and I'm just one guy who drinks too much coffee.

    Hopefully, the devs will keep the discussion open on what ideas the community would like to see. I know that our experiences vary and from those experiences perhaps we can arrive at a sum greater than its parts while discussing what strange new worlds and new life and new civilization we'll meet.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    According to the most recent comments I've heard, star clusters are going to become like the Defari system with "known locations, known people that you can go help, daily missions". I have 2 concerns with this: first of all, thats not really exploration. Second, what happens when you play through those missions? Do you have nothing new to explore until new ones are added?

    The details discussed above are from this interview, 13 mins in:

    http://www.trekradio.net/news/dan-stahl-interview-in-on-demand

    Have a listen and then share your thoughts.

    After listening to the actual interview it sounds rather interesting.

    It sounds more like the DS9 style of continuing story lines then the typical Star Trek style of warp in, fix something, warp out. If his was consistently built upon it could be really compelling. I think that 3 setup missions and a group of daily repeatable per current nebula would be a lot of content and I could easily see latching onto STO established storylines and building upon them in the foundry.

    This would also be a great way to kill the lull between featured series. Say a big update is coming up and it will be another 3 months till the next series, throw in another set of dalies of X cluster to push that along a bit during the wait.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I would have no issue with this concept if they utilized a Genesis system kind of concept with it as well as instituting a deep space exploration system for more random content (similar to the way they do exploration now, but improved upon).

    Here's how I imagine it could work:

    The exploration sectors we have now, in general, we encounter the same races over and over again (Strekklan, Widrab, etc.). Some of them hostile, some friendly. Instead of just wandering around until we find a random system, we would have set systems to travel to (remember, we only see a small part of a system whenever we warp in, so there can easily be multiple locations in a system you could travel to in different missions). However, the missions we go on could be generated somewhat randomly.

    Here's what I mean by "somewhat" randomly. Based on the missions you've run before and the race you're encountering, you could receive a transmission while in the exploration sector (ex.: "we need help in x system" or "the y race is mounting an incursion in z system, they must be stopped"). Throughout these missions, you would be able to learn more about the races you've been encountering. What their culture is like, what kind of history they have. And this could be expanded on regularly in updates to the game (i.e. new mission types, information to be plugged into missions). This way, the missions you run would be randomly generated, but the information you get during the missions and the general kind of mission you'd be going on would be determined by the race you encounter instead of just a cookie cutter dialogue tree.

    I imagine deep space exploration could work in a similar fashion to exploration now. However, in order to spice it up, I suggest that they expand the Genesis system to include the names, appearances, and attributes of races; it shouldn't be monumentally hard to give a random list of racial name, look, and cultural attribute "parts" that could be combined to form a new race. If this seems like a race that you'd like to see more of, maybe you could even have an option to "tag" or save their racial profile for the chance at future encounters in this area of deep space. These deep space sectors would be where first contact diplomacy missions would be found.

    I think splitting up exploration like this could make for an interesting and fun experience.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Turnsky wrote: »
    forgive me if i'm wrong, guys, but wouldn't adding a little variety and depth be a good thing?
    heck, i'd be even behind the idea of further opening up 'unexplored' regions to be properly explored via plot or somesuch.
    If you mean adding more archetypes to the current model, I think time would be better spent making it more meaningful and deeper than providing a wider assortment of lackluster options.

    There's an analogy I used to use regarding exploration.

    Exploration should be like a koch snowflake which hails from fractal math (see page 3). It starts off with simple layers then builds from there.
    • Maybe it starts as an exploration cluster with dailes
    • Now add persistent zones and characters.
    • Now add a layer that integrates developing relationships and unlocked dailies and missions.
    • Now add a layer with Foundry content integration.
    • Now add a territory control layer.
    • etc.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.

    If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.

    I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.

    Why not make the clusters at least one full order of magnitude larger than they currently are? That would allow you to have 20 or so base systems that can be static and allow you to procedurally generate new systems, actual systems not the little arrows we have now. Have the new zone interspersed with eye candy like a gas cloud and the occasional attack or distress call from an unknown system. In my opinion, that would be much more effective in improving immersion instead of turning the clusters into another pre-scripted zone to grind through.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    X01103 wrote: »
    Why not make the clusters at least one full order of magnitude larger than they currently are? That would allow you to have 20 or so base systems that can be static and allow you to procedurally generate new systems, actual systems not the little arrows we have now. Have the new zone interspersed with eye candy like a gas cloud and the occasional attack or distress call from an unknown system. In my opinion, that would be much more effective in improving immersion instead of turning the clusters into another pre-scripted zone to grind through.

    Who says the devs haven't suggested that? ;)

    From all I've read, it seems like they're trying to tackle Exploration with every tool in the box: dailies, persistent contacts, stories, sector "flavors", persistent zones, foundry, and possibly some procedural areas.

    It doesn't sound like it'll be strictly similar to the wholly scripted areas we have in-game, nor will it be as fire-and-forget as the not-quite-random exploration maps (there are really thousands of them, not necessarily new ones created on the fly).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'd be surprised if they got rid of the current exploration content as that would reduce the total amount of content. I'd say it would be much more likely that they will expand the content or add in a new system that works alongside it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'd be surprised if they got rid of the current exploration content as that would reduce the total amount of content. I'd say it would be much more likely that they will expand the content or add in a new system that works alongside it.

    This seems likely - or tweaking the Genesis tools to cater more to each exploration cluster, replacing the older maps (which have bugged mobs still).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    The random generated maps we have now are just boring, especially if you get missions you don't like it gets worse. Exploring a planet where random NPCs running around like chickens with nothing to do, only waiting for the player to come and kill them .. nope i've not a single tear drop to cry if we get rid of this content. And the worst missions are the "oh no one is here left in the base, lets explore what happens and find 3 clickies".

    I think some ppl should not take the label "explore" too serious. No random system is able to create interesting content. We better get handmade planets to explore with dschungels, ruins, lost cities, cellars, bases and such.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    According to the most recent comments I've heard, star clusters are going to become like the Defari system with "known locations, known people that you can go help, daily missions". I have 2 concerns with this: first of all, thats not really exploration. Second, what happens when you play through those missions? Do you have nothing new to explore until new ones are added?

    The details discussed above are from this interview, 13 mins in:

    http://www.trekradio.net/news/dan-stahl-interview-in-on-demand

    Have a listen and then share your thoughts.

    Ah the old Dec Interview. Well I agree it should be more hardcoded. Like I proposed in my own exploration propsition, its more like this. But not exactly sure it be smart to make it too much into the foundry. Seems Cryptic is using that as a crutch to get out content.

    Why not? Once someone explores something in real life and in Star Trek it generally stays explored.

    If there's a star cluster out there with a set collection of aliens, what's going to set them apart is that they're going to be aliens that the player hasn't heard of upon entering that system for the first time. Exploration isn't just about initial discovery; it's also about learning more and digging deeper about the things you know are already out there.

    I personally prefer an exploration system that lets me learn more about the new aliens I encounter vs. only making superficial visits to randomly generated portraits over and over again.

    By the looks of it, you guys liked my Exploration idea that I posted a few months ago:

    http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=185026&highlight=starflight

    You got alien races within a certain territoral limits, you can intitate first contact without being prompted, and you can have dialogues that lead to the next step. But not likeing putting it too entirely in the players hands via the Foundry. You guys are being paid to do this, not us paying to do it ourselves.

    I'll have to make another exploration proposal thread.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Maledicus wrote:
    I think some ppl should not take the label "explore" too serious. No random system is able to create interesting content. We better get handmade planets to explore with dschungels, ruins, lost cities, cellars, bases and such.

    Yes and no.

    Random content generation in the following games were awesome:
    • Daggerfall
    • Minecraft
    • Dwarf Fortress
    • Elite (including the open Source Vega Strike which has a trek total conversion)
    • Heroes of Might and Magic II
    • Most 4x strategy games

    Games with lame random generation of content:
    • STO
    • Hellgate: London
    • A good portion of the rogue-like derivatives
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    wrote:
    According to the most recent comments I've heard, star clusters are going to become like the Defari system with "known locations, known people that you can go help, daily missions". I have 2 concerns with this: first of all, thats not really exploration. Second, what happens when you play through those missions? Do you have nothing new to explore until new ones are added?

    The details discussed above are from this interview, 13 mins in:

    http://www.trekradio.net/news/dan-stahl-interview-in-on-demand

    Have a listen and then share your thoughts.
    I think we still need some kind of "random mission generator" along that, but I also believe that only random mission generators are very unsatisfying. You really just end up in the same old missions, just with a few different NPCs in them.

    A lot of suggestions for exploration content were about creating a deeper storyline and more characterization, and a random mission generator can only go so far.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Yes and no.
    Games with lame random generation of content:
    • STO
    • Hellgate: London
    • A good portion of the rogue-like derivatives

    I could be wrong, but I don't think there was anything random about how the Genesis content was put together.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I could be wrong, but I don't think there was anything random about how the Genesis content was put together.
    You're partly right, the content wasn't assembled entirely randomly. However, the genesis editor did automate it based on developer input (i.e. the text entered by developers and the assets on hand that corresponded).

    The only random part players see is what map gets fed to players (i.e. map xxxxxx). It's not created for players on the fly. However, the developers plug in variables and turned a good portion of exploration maps over to a machine to create them.

    The maps were, as you mention, pregenerated (4000+ maps if I recall dstahl's figure).
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    wrote:
    I could be wrong, but I don't think there was anything random about how the Genesis content was put together.
    Pre-generated yes, but random - must have. Otherwise Borg wouldn't be looking for artifacts of their 3rd Dynasty.

    You can't be telling me that Kestrel would write something like that conciously... ;) (I still blame Cryptic - and thus possibly her - for not thinking that this combnation might not work for all factions)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Here's the dstahl explaining it:
    dstahl wrote: »
    The exploration content in STO was using an alpha version of the UGC tools - it was very basic UI and you had to know a lot about how the game works in order to use it effectively - BUT even at that early state of the tool - it was able to make some beautiful basic content using a single text editor interface.

    If you've played tabletop rpgs, it sounds analogous to a seed generator that creates dungeon maps based on text variable inputs (while much of the generation is automated after the initial variable inputs).

    Mustrum explained it effectively: the storylines and dialogue could only have been randomly selected from samples as they don't make sense - as are some of the placements of characters (remember spawns could be put below the surface of a ground map) and sometimes objectives didn't appear at all.

    :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    You're partly right, the content wasn't assembled entirely randomly. However, the genesis editor did automate it based on developer input (i.e. the text entered by developers and the assets on hand that corresponded).

    The only random part players see is what map gets fed to players (i.e. map xxxxxx). It's not created for players on the fly. However, the developers plug in variables and turned a good portion of exploration maps over to a machine to create them.

    The maps were, as you mention, pregenerated (4000+ maps if I recall dstahl's figure).

    Is that why my last exploration had stone pillars for carnivorous plants? :D
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