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An idea to make retrofitting viable.

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
OK here is my idea:

When a character reaches Vice Admiral they get the option to retrofit any of the existing ships - tier 2 - 4 - but none of the stater ships.

In game retrofitting would basically mean increasing the following ship performance stats:
hull
shield
engines
weapons

The amount you can upgrade a ship performance stat is determined by 'retrofit points'. So once a Vice Admiral each player gets a maximum of 30 'retrofit points' to spend upgrading either the hull, shield, speed and weapons. Each stat can be improved by a maximum of 10 points. You only get 30 points so you can never completely overpower a ship without sacrificing something else.

When adding points to the stat you get a buff at certain increments. So for example, 3 points in weapons on a Escort might give you an extra rear weapons placement. This would have to be tailored and unique to each tier and type of ship.

Each tier and category of retrofitted ship (Escort, Science, Cruiser et al) has a maximum limit that they can be upgraded to (but of a VA level), so you don't get Escorts with far greater hull strength than cruisers.

I.e:

Escort max retrofit: hull 26000

Heavy Escort max retrofit hull 28000

Tactical Escort retrofit hull 30000

The rule would be the same for Engines, Shield and Weapons.

To make things interesting there would be performance variations within each retrofitted tier. So while the Escort (that's Saber class) has the lowest maximum hull strength it can be upgraded to. It also has the highest engine performance and maneuverability of any Escort. The Heavy Escort (Akira) for example could have the highest possible maximum shield strength of any Escort but for each increment gained it takes a debuff to weapons..

This I think works very similar to how the leveling system already works. It would also give players greater control over how they improve their ships at end game and it gives them the chance to play with their favourite ship (at Endgame) without its inclusion being wholly unrealistic. Add cannon-lore to explain each upgraded system - so when upgrading the hull explain it as adding neutronium armor (or something) to the hull - and it works within the Star Trek context as well.

Just an idea, let me know what you think.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    A very interesting idea, I like it! My only concern is balance in PvP when it comes to customizing ship stats. Over all it doesn't sound like it would be too bad. As for the starter ships, I see no reason they can't be added. By your method, they are still limited to a 30 point limit.

    The only thing I would like to add to your idea is, retrofit/refit at any rank of player and allowing BO layout to be adjusted by your rank. So if your Miranda can only have an En. slot at T1, at T2 it gets a Lt. slot, at T3 through higher tiers it goes up and up. No reason the BO layout has to be limited. So in theory you could have a T1 Connie in T5 PvP with T5 BO layout but maybe only T3 ship stats.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    My hope is, and will always be this:

    Upon reaching a new rank when choosing your new FREE ship, you have the option of the three classes, OR to upgrade your current ship with BO and Console layout, and the basic hull/engine stats for that rank's ship.

    Simple, and easy to implement, but the group of players that would scream at "being pwned' by an Ent era Enterprise would fill the ears (eyes) of everyone.. regardless of the fact they aren't 400 year old ships, but MODERN ships with the appearance of classic designs.. :P

    Saith, and Jolan'tru
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    regardless of the fact they aren't 400 year old ships, but MODERN ships with the appearance of classic designs.. :P

    Oh man that's so true!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Actually I think too much stat customizing will lead only to min-maxing and would be a balance nightmare. Namely, in your system, imagine you'd mix your ship to have really weak hull and shields, but completely overpowered weapons and - say - a cloak. Or in other extremes, ridiculously unkillable cruisers. Nah.

    What I can imagine is taking a for example cruiser ship from lower tier and improving the hull and shield rating - in case of a light cruiser, hull to say 70-80 percent of the cruiser of the T5 tier, shields to say 110 percent of the cruiser tier (as it would be really weird if a small ship the size of Miranda would have the same hull rating as a massive assault cruiser, it can however be fitted with best shields available), add responding number of weapond ports, consoles and officer slots and you got a refit.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    A very interesting idea, I like it! My only concern is balance in PvP when it comes to customizing ship stats. Over all it doesn't sound like it would be too bad. As for the starter ships, I see no reason they can't be added. By your method, they are still limited to a 30 point limit.

    The only thing I would like to add to your idea is, retrofit/refit at any rank of player and allowing BO layout to be adjusted by your rank. So if your Miranda can only have an En. slot at T1, at T2 it gets a Lt. slot, at T3 through higher tiers it goes up and up. No reason the BO layout has to be limited. So in theory you could have a T1 Connie in T5 PvP with T5 BO layout but maybe only T3 ship stats.

    I just think starter ships should stay starter ships. There has to be a measure of plausibility to this.

    I like your BO layout. I would go one step further and say all retrofitted ships can have 1 Commander, 1 Lieutenant Commander, 2 Lieutenant and one Ensign of the players choosing.

    I would limit the console layout to 9 for all the VA ships again customisable to the players choosing.

    I see that as something akin to the options Admiral Riker probably got when he refitted the Enterprise into the Galaxy X.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Dondaddyd wrote: »
    I just think starter ships should stay starter ships. There has to be a measure of plausibility to this.

    I like your BO layout. I would go one step further and say all retrofitted ships can have 1 Commander, 1 Lieutenant Commander, 2 Lieutenant and one Ensign of the players choosing.

    I would limit the console layout to 9 for all the VA ships again customisable to the players choosing.

    I see that as something akin to the options Admiral Riker probably got when he refitted the Enterprise into the Galaxy X.

    I do agree it would be a little odd, but the T5 B'rel has the lowest hull at T5 but still has its place. If a T5 Connie had let's say a max of 30k (my T5 B'rel has like 27k) hull with the turn rate of 11 and 3 fore 3 aft weapons, it could be a fast light cruiser.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    As the system stands you can put any MXI weapons and shields on your little Miranda without a problem.

    The problem is total energy, hull points, and consoles.

    Now, I think consoles should scale by player and not by ship but that's just me. After all, that little Miranda bridge looks like it's got more than enough consoles.

    The Hull points could be simply a "we replace the plating with something stronger but harder to make".
    The energy could be simply swapping out a warp core with a smaller, more efficient one.


    So really all they'd have to do is increase the ship's energy and hull points to match (roughly) what a T5 ship has. Weapon slots would remain the same.
    This, of course, is generally useless in battle since being able to fire only 2 phasers at once and only one torpedo isn't nearly enough for a VA fight.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I do agree it would be a little odd, but the T5 B'rel has the lowest hull at T5 but still has its place. If a T5 Connie had let's say a max of 30k (my T5 B'rel has like 27k) hull with the turn rate of 11 and 3 fore 3 aft weapons, it could be a fast light cruiser.


    I agree 100 and 20 percent with you!!! There are still people who love the TOS Connie and they SHOULD be able to use it at end game.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    My hope is, and will always be this:

    Upon reaching a new rank when choosing your new FREE ship, you have the option of the three classes, OR to upgrade your current ship with BO and Console layout, and the basic hull/engine stats for that rank's ship.

    Simple, and easy to implement, but the group of players that would scream at "being pwned' by an Ent era Enterprise would fill the ears (eyes) of everyone.. regardless of the fact they aren't 400 year old ships, but MODERN ships with the appearance of classic designs.. :P

    Saith, and Jolan'tru

    Yes, this would probably be the only viable option.

    Because the one problem I see with the OP's system is that with those "retrofit points," sure you could upgrade a tier 2 ship to tier 5, but why not spend those points on a tier 5 ship and make it into a "god ship?" People would be running around in Sovvies with 10 weapons, 12 consoles, and 8 BOs.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    My hope is, and will always be this:

    Upon reaching a new rank when choosing your new FREE ship, you have the option of the three classes, OR to upgrade your current ship with BO and Console layout, and the basic hull/engine stats for that rank's ship.

    Simple, and easy to implement, but the group of players that would scream at "being pwned' by an Ent era Enterprise would fill the ears (eyes) of everyone.. regardless of the fact they aren't 400 year old ships, but MODERN ships with the appearance of classic designs.. :P

    Saith, and Jolan'tru

    As long as the console and bo layout is exactly the same , as any one of the refits , i see no problem with this suggestion. Now if you could choose bo and console placing, without keeping with what is available , then the issue slides into that ballance area, and we don't want it to go there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    regardless of the fact they aren't 400 year old ships, but MODERN ships with the appearance of classic designs.

    Because I highly doubt that Starfleet would really decide to revisit a 400-year old design that only lasted a few years in the middle of a war with every faction in space.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    That's where the whole idea of the 500 day reward where you get a refit token thats turns ANY ship into a T5 ship with equivalent stats. It keeps the balance.

    So the Akira gets extra Hull, Shields, extra forward weapon, extra rear weapon, extra BO slots and console slots to match a T5 ship, with you being able to determine how many console slots and BO slots you get for each section.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Xtorma wrote: »
    As long as the console and bo layout is exactly the same , as any one of the refits , i see no problem with this suggestion. Now if you could choose bo and console placing, without keeping with what is available , then the issue slides into that ballance area, and we don't want it to go there.


    I didn't go into further detail, but.. yes. That's exactly how I had imagined it. For example, you take the Tier 2 Nova, and you 'retro-fit' it to the same stats/layouts as the basic Tier 3 Science Vessel.. basically it's just re-skinning the basic ship to keep the look of the favored ship.

    Because I highly doubt that Starfleet would really decide to revisit a 400-year old design that only lasted a few years in the middle of a war with every faction in space.

    See, in STO, that argument really holds no water. There are too many in-game "Starfleet wouldn't" issues already. Having the ability to retrofit player ships (yes, even the Tier 1 ones) is something a large portion of the posting playerbase is interested in, and wants.

    Add to that the fact that if I'm flying a T3, T4, T5.. or maybe even a T6 Miranda has no actual bearing on your game play... there really isn't any reason the devs couldn't, or shouldn't offer this as an option.

    We all just have to wait and see what, and how the developers plan to implement such a feature.

    Saith, and Jolan'tru
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Yes, this would probably be the only viable option.

    Because the one problem I see with the OP's system is that with those "retrofit points," sure you could upgrade a tier 2 ship to tier 5, but why not spend those points on a tier 5 ship and make it into a "god ship?" People would be running around in Sovvies with 10 weapons, 12 consoles, and 8 BOs.

    End game ships could be exempt from being upgraded.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    redheadguy wrote:
    End game ships could be exempt from being upgraded.

    But as they up the level cap, doesn't "end-game" get upped as well?

    So, currently you can't upgrade the T5 ships, but what happens when T6's are released? Does that, then, unlock the T5's to be upgraded? And if so, isn't that still the concern of the person you quoted?

    Saith, and Jolan'tru
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011

    But as they up the level cap, doesn't "end-game" get upped as well?

    So, currently you can't upgrade the T5 ships, but what happens when T6's are released? Does that, then, unlock the T5's to be upgraded? And if so, isn't that still the concern of the person you quoted?

    Saith, and Jolan'tru

    no....what would happen is that using a refitting token would bring ANY ship up to it's t6 equivalent
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    See, in STO, that argument really holds no water. There are too many in-game "Starfleet wouldn't" issues already.

    Such as?

    Add to that the fact that if I'm flying a T3, T4, T5.. or maybe even a T6 Miranda has no actual bearing on your game play... there really isn't any reason the devs couldn't, or shouldn't offer this as an option.

    Except for making it really hard to figure out what type of ship you're up against AND ruing immersion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I like the OP's idea of a point-based system to improve upon hull, shields, engines, and weapons. However I would also like to see something implemented to add special abilities to the ships too. Maybe you could spend 10 points to add a cloaking device, or a tachyon detection grid, or ablative armor, or saucer separation, or whatever.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    How about this:

    (30 points to distribute)

    Improve Shields (each point improves base shields by 2%)
    Improve Hull (each point improves base hull by 2%)
    Improve Engines (each point improves base ship turn rate by 2%)

    Improve Weapon Power (each point improves maximum ship weapon power by 1)
    Improve Shield Power (each point improves maximum ship shield power by 1)
    Improve Engine Power (each point improves maximum ship engine power by 1)
    Improve Auxillary Power (each point improves maximum ship auxillary power by 1)

    <Three Additional Consoles Max>
    Add Ensign Universal Console (2 points)
    Add Leutenant Universal Console (5 points)
    Add Leutenant Commander Universal Console (10 points)

    <Escorts Only>
    Add Cloaking Device (10 points)
    Add MVAM (10 points)

    <Cruisers Only>
    Add Saucer Separation (10 points)
    Add Phaser Lance (10 points)

    <Science Only>
    Add Tachyon Detection Grid (10 points)
    Add Ablative Armor (10 points)

    I would suggest that you may only retrofit a ship once, to prevent super-powerful ships. This system would still allow a great degree of customization. What do you think?

    *EDIT: Maybe it should be two additional consoles max? Or maybe a maximum of one special ability? Someone could still add a Phaser Lance, Leutenant Commander console, and +10 maximum weapon power to a Connie, and you know that would be a pretty powerful ship. I could add a Tachyon Detection Grid, Leutenant Commander console, and +20% turn rate to a Recon Science Vessel, and I would be happy. I can't think of why anyone wouldn't be happy with some kind of a system similar to this.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    Phibrizzo wrote: »
    no....what would happen is that using a refitting token would bring ANY ship up to it's t6 equivalent

    Yes, I can see how it would be plausible to only allow upgrade points as fit to bring a ship up to tier 6 equivalents...with much less hull, of course, but it would still allow for a starter ship to be viable at endgame.

    And my concern was more that you'd be able to refit your endgame ships to the point where you'd be incredibly overpowered, but if tier 6 ships have 8 BO slots and 12 weapons, well then by jove give us the option to upgrade our lower tier ones so we can have that on all our ships.
    Except for making it really hard to figure out what type of ship you're up against AND ruing immersion.

    And really and honestly, if your "immersion" hasn't already been ruined by 400 year old Vulcan ships, NX classes and (soon) Andorian ships...then a tier 2 Vesper or Nova class, which are modern ships, should be more than acceptable to see in Gamma Orionis or in endgame pvp.

    I mean aside from them being new ships in a classic hull, today's navies and starfleet both mothball older ship designs *just in case* they need them later. A multi front war between every power in the galaxy is more than enough reason to bring them back into service.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011

    And really and honestly, if your "immersion" hasn't already been ruined by 400 year old Vulcan ships, NX classes and (soon) Andorian ships...then a tier 2 Vesper or Nova class, which are modern ships, should be more than acceptable to see in Gamma Orionis or in endgame pvp.

    I mean aside from them being new ships in a classic hull, today's navies and starfleet both mothball older ship designs *just in case* they need them later. A multi front war between every power in the galaxy is more than enough reason to bring them back into service.

    It already dies ruin immersion but compounding one mistake with another is a bad idea.

    Okay, so in the emergency crisis, they HAVE been brought back to service. But a crisis, war ridden Federation is unlikely to divert precious resources to refit old designs to somehow be on par with the most advanced ships in the fleet.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2011
    I'm getting tired of PvP balance and canon snobbery. I want to have fun playing a game. :mad:

    Anyways, the OP's idea was interesting, and makes me wish once again that I could retrofit my Connie Refit.
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