Small, minor suggestion I was tossing around with some friends of mine.
Make the Borg a race to be feared again. Anyone remember when a single Borg vessel appearing in the Alpha Quadrant made the Federation collectively TRIBBLE themselves?
Wolf 359, A single regular cube(not a tactical one) destroyed 47 federation starships without even breaking a sweat. Then went right on to park itself in orbit of Earth like it owned the place.
Granted, it's a game, players like to win. You can still win. I'm just looking for that sense of "Oh TRIBBLE, the Borg! Seriously people! We need like a fleet here! Now!" I know Starfleet hasn't been sitting on their hands all this time, but neither have the Borg. Oh look, Starfleet developed a new anti-Borg weapon. Awesome, the Borg just assimilated an entire species with interquadrantal warp drive technology, Videan Phage torpedoes and Hirogen Hunting sensors.
And, here's the suggestion:
Remember that Crystaline Entity you forced us to face through a mission in the Alpha Centari block that even Rear Admirals couldn't scratch? Remove that, or scale it waaaaaay down, and add a Borg version over in the Borg space at the Crystaline Entity's CURRENT strength and power.
I wanna see big strong strapping 12 year olds wet themselves when they get the mission to face the Borg in a fleet action durn it! I wanna hear those forum complainers furiously posting away about how "teh borg r op!!1!"
Q himself called the Borg "The ultimate user", and even yelled at his own son for provoking the Borg. Showing that even the Q have a fear(a very, very small one) of the Borg to some extent.
The point is, Cryptic have utterly wasted the Borg in my opinion. They were part of the tutorial for goodness sake. They should have been considered an ultimate bad guy and saved for a true expansion, building mamouth amounts of anticipation along the way. In the mean-time there were planety of races in Trek with rich and diverse histories that could have been explored without scratching the surface from launch until now.
Anyone remeber when the game was being sold on the basis of the galaxy splitting fed/klink war? What happened to that? The galaxy disolved into a mass of quantity over quality - that's what happened. (in terms of canon races not in terms of the game as a whole)
The point is, Cryptic have utterly wasted the Borg in my opinion. They were part of the tutorial for goodness sake. They should have been considered an ultimate bad guy and saved for a true expansion, building mamouth amounts of anticipation along the way. In the mean-time there were planety of races in Trek with rich and diverse histories that could have been explored without scratching the surface from launch until now.
Anyone remeber when the game was being sold on the basis of the galaxy splitting fed/klink war? What happened to that? The galaxy disolved into a mass of quantity over quality - that's what happened.
To be honest, Voyager wasted the Borg. TNG they were a thing to be feared. Voyager comes along, and suddenly the Borg are "just another race, yawn" to be negotiated with, and treated like the Khazon, or the Dominion. First Contact started that slide though with the introduction of the Queen, and having her talk and act like a normal person.
To be honest, Voyager wasted the Borg. TNG they were a thing to be feared. Voyager comes along, and suddenly the Borg are "just another race, yawn" to be negotiated with, and treated like the Khazon, or the Dominion. First Contact started that slide though with the introduction of the Queen, and having her talk and act like a normal person.
Agreed.
However I also agree utterly with your OP. Why missions were never designed that involved a huge team of fed ships battling against a single terrifying cube is anyone's guess.
Even Tactical Cubes have been utterly wasted - they are taken down with some ease in STFs with 5 ships.
Entire fleets of Borg ships require fewer fed ships to kill than the Crystalline Entity.
None of it makes sense and the way the borg have been used in this game is dissapointing across the board. As I say, imo what could have been STO's trump card has been wasted.
The player's first experience of fighting the borg should have been a watershed moment that we all remember and talk about for as long as we play the game. As it is they are wheeled in and used up within 5 minutes of creating a toon.
Simple fix. Replace the tutorial Borg with... Say Klingons. I mean, Lieutenant into Lieutenant Commander you are fighting them any way. Keep the flow going.
Pull the Borg back into their own space. Mod some stats maybe. Make them a little bit tougher. Give their ground units a slightly better than normal shield regen(ala adaptation). Give their ships a bit of a natural hull regen(ala regeneration). And finally, toss one of those fleet actions I mentioned in my original post into their space.
Fleshing them out story wise can come later, after some of the other races get the love they so desperately need in that area, like Klingons and Romulans.
These are not necessarily even big changes. A couple of number shifts, and a unit swap out in the tutorial. Granted, that last one might be a little bigger. But in the end it would really kick some life back into the Borg.
I hold true to my original outlook that, back when the Klingons were purely PvP, the Borg should have been made the pure PvP playable race, and left the Klingons as members of the Federation.
((Yes, I'm being super posty on this, I'm very passionate about this topic, and very bored at the moment.))
I'd say make them them a lot tougher but cut the amount of them you have to fight in any given mission. A single borg cube should represent the same firepower and durability as a fleet of Romulans, Cardassians etc.
The borg cube appearing on sensors should be a 'white knuckle grip on the mouse' moment. 1 should be enough for this. I don't really want to see fleets of Borg, it implies a weakness they do not have.
This was discussed in the Beta. The Borg we're encountering, at least as I recall were Borg that had been severely weakened by Species 8472. In essence, these are Refugee Borg. At least that was the story a year ago...
This was discussed in the Beta. The Borg we're encountering, at least as I recall were Borg that had been severely weakened by Species 8472. In essence, these are Refugee Borg. At least that was the story a year ago...
My views on how they *******ized Species 8472(Undine) is an entirely different thread all together.
Refugee Borg is just the lazy man's excuse for pandering to the people who cry foul when they get beat because they weren't prepared.
The Borg were handed on a silver platter a weapon capable of completely annihilating Species 8472, and the Borg are the undesputed MASTERS of adaptation. It's the one thing that made them so scary to begin with.
My views on how they *******ized Species 8472(Undine) is an entirely different thread all together.
Refugee Borg is just the lazy man's excuse for pandering to the people who cry foul when they get beat because they weren't prepared.
The Borg were handed on a silver platter a weapon capable of completely annihilating Species 8472, and the Borg are the undesputed MASTERS of adaptation. It's the one thing that made them so scary to begin with.
What made them scary wasn't their constant adaptation, it's the way they consumed you, belly of the beast and all. There are some fates worse than death, so to speak. It's what makes Seven of Nine's backstory so chilling. Small family of scientists seek to understand the borg and end up being consumed by them through simple bad luck/
They were scary in the same way a guy who busts down your door with a blood soaked axe is scary. He's scary because there is no ambiguity to his intentions. You know what he's there for, he knows what he's there for and you know this will probably not turn out well for you.
But this axeman doesn't kill you, he takes you apart, he keeps you alive, but he eviscerates you nevertheless.
The adaptibility just meant that there was an actual element of danger for Starfleet. Hell, Q is more dangerous than the Borg could ever hope to be... but Q never made me scared the way the Borg did.
All valid points. All I'm aiming for here is to bring some of the scare back into the Borg. That whole "Consume you" thing is out because, if you lose in the fight you just respawn back at the start. So make them tougher, play on the other things that made them that.
Hell, Q is more dangerous than the Borg could ever hope to be...
I like to think that the Q have a healthy respect for the Borg. Mainly because if a Borg ever assimilated a Q, they would become unstoppable. And Q has hinted at aspects of the Continuum that lead one to believe that such a thing would be possible.
All valid points. All I'm aiming for here is to bring some of the scare back into the Borg. That whole "Consume you" thing is out because, if you lose in the fight you just respawn back at the start. So make them tougher, play on the other things that made them that.
I like to think that the Q have a healthy respect for the Borg. Mainly because if a Borg ever assimilated a Q, they would become unstoppable. And Q has hinted at aspects of the Continuum that lead one to believe that such a thing would be possible.
And I entirely agree with you. The Borg SHOULD'VE been the big bad boogieman. I could even see "For Especial Penalties" if you failed against them... like that character was unavailable for 60 minutes bec ause they had been assimilated and needed to be rescued or some sort of silliness.
Small, minor suggestion I was tossing around with some friends of mine.
Make the Borg a race to be feared again. Anyone remember when a single Borg vessel appearing in the Alpha Quadrant made the Federation collectively TRIBBLE themselves?
Wolf 359, A single regular cube(not a tactical one) destroyed 47 federation starships without even breaking a sweat. Then went right on to park itself in orbit of Earth like it owned the place.
Granted, it's a game, players like to win. You can still win. I'm just looking for that sense of "Oh TRIBBLE, the Borg! Seriously people! We need like a fleet here! Now!" I know Starfleet hasn't been sitting on their hands all this time, but neither have the Borg. Oh look, Starfleet developed a new anti-Borg weapon. Awesome, the Borg just assimilated an entire species with interquadrantal warp drive technology, Videan Phage torpedoes and Hirogen Hunting sensors.
And, here's the suggestion:
Remember that Crystaline Entity you forced us to face through a mission in the Alpha Centari block that even Rear Admirals couldn't scratch? Remove that, or scale it waaaaaay down, and add a Borg version over in the Borg space at the Crystaline Entity's CURRENT strength and power.
I wanna see big strong strapping 12 year olds wet themselves when they get the mission to face the Borg in a fleet action durn it! I wanna hear those forum complainers furiously posting away about how "teh borg r op!!1!"
Q himself called the Borg "The ultimate user", and even yelled at his own son for provoking the Borg. Showing that even the Q have a fear(a very, very small one) of the Borg to some extent.
Although I agree with everithing you say.... there are already several threads about that topic arround here....
like that character was unavailable for 60 minutes bec ause they had been assimilated and needed to be rescued or some sort of silliness.
Make us sweat.
I would actually go for this, if it were possible. Not saying that it isn't, I'm just trying to think from the game designer point of view as well. As well as the angry, forum rage gamer who will no doubt complain that their "main is unavailable for a whole minute because they lost a fight".
Now, I'm gonna go to bed as I should have done five hours ago and check back here when I wake up.
However I also agree utterly with your OP. Why missions were never designed that involved a huge team of fed ships battling against a single terrifying cube is anyone's guess.
Even Tactical Cubes have been utterly wasted - they are taken down with some ease in STFs with 5 ships.
Entire fleets of Borg ships require fewer fed ships to kill than the Crystalline Entity.
None of it makes sense and the way the borg have been used in this game is dissapointing across the board. As I say, imo what could have been STO's trump card has been wasted.
The player's first experience of fighting the borg should have been a watershed moment that we all remember and talk about for as long as we play the game. As it is they are wheeled in and used up within 5 minutes of creating a toon.
Really tragic.
Are you surprised? really? Anyone who was here in open beta (yes, shameless plug) can tell you that STO was NOT designed by ANYONE who knew ANYTHING about Star Trek beyond a microsoft word summarised version of the Star Trek wikipedia pages.
The changes since have been giving the impression that the design teams have been reading memory alpha and watching an episode here and there, but the writers still have no idea what Star Trek is about.
The game will change and become a more Trek-like experience when Foundry goes live and real Trekkies create missions that put Cryptic to shame - or the new executive producer pulls his finger out and makes the dev team and writers take a couple weeks off to watch all of star trek and then actually write appropriately
I agree with the sentiments of the OP. That gave me an Idea. I haven't done the STF's and stuff so I don't know all of what's going on. This would be a longer term goal for the devs, don't think it would be easy to implement.
Anyway, a special mission. It starts out simply enough, go scan that or transport Y to Z, and you encounter the the borg. What do the borg to best, they adapt and assimilate right? Well, I know they did that already ( that undine mission) but why not do it again. This time it is a different species or creature like say preservers or something relatively untouched as yet by cryptic, with a good story behind it, to keep it new and interesting. But this time, the mission is designed for you to fail. Thus the borg succeed, when this is done. After this is over you get maybe a special movie, and the borg are once again the big nasty they were and then quite a bit more. Once you do that, your borg are now new borg ever after, and those who have not done the mission have the current old borg.
Something along those lines might make for a great expansion or mega update and make the borg a fearsome foe again too.
I agree with the sentiments of the OP. That gave me an Idea. I haven't done the STF's and stuff so I don't know all of what's going on. This would be a longer term goal for the devs, don't think it would be easy to implement.
Anyway, a special mission. It starts out simply enough, go scan that or transport Y to Z, and you encounter the the borg. What do the borg to best, they adapt and assimilate right? Well, I know they did that already ( that undine mission) but why not do it again. This time it is a different species or creature like say preservers or something relatively untouched as yet by cryptic, with a good story behind it, to keep it new and interesting. But this time, the mission is designed for you to fail. Thus the borg succeed, when this is done. After this is over you get maybe a special movie, and the borg are once again the big nasty they were and then quite a bit more. Once you do that, your borg are now new borg ever after, and those who have not done the mission have the current old borg.
Something along those lines might make for a great expansion or mega update and make the borg a fearsome foe again too.
I love the idea of a no win scenario and it has strong precident in Trek canon. I would welcome anythng which relaunches the borg in this game, which is, I think, what you are proposing.
Perhaps the Fusion Cube or the enhanced Tatical Fusion Cube launching an invasion would be nice to see, these were shown in ST Armarda two unsure if they can be added however. Ships are missing such as the Borg interceptors and Diamonds these could add more life to the collective arsenal.
Perhaps the Fusion Cube or the enhanced Tatical Fusion Cube launching an invasion would be nice to see, these were shown in ST Armarda two unsure if they can be added however. Ships are missing such as the Borg interceptors and Diamonds these could add more life to the collective arsenal.
A new 'tier' of Borg is needed now that the originals have been spent so cheaply. Perhaps the Borg invasion has been stalled so they call for reinforcements from the Delta Quadrant? Federation ships have advanced in the last 30 years to the point where they can blow up cubes yet the Borg have not advanced at all - this most adaptive of races...really?
Sorry people, but since admiral Janeway we are technologically more than on par with the Borg. Replacing the tutorial Borg is nonesense too because their weakness is explained in one of the STFs. Borg are still one of the more dangerous species on the ground, but accept it that we have outgrown them. That has nothing to do with Cryptic, blame the people who made First Contact, Voyager and Enterprise. We'll see what Cryptic has in store for us next.
@ The_Collective
I was there in open beta, and I couldn't disagree more.
Sorry people, but since admiral Janeway we are technologically more than on par with the Borg. Replacing the tutorial Borg is nonesense too because their weakness is explained in one of the STFs. Borg are still one of the more dangerous species on the ground, but accept it that we have outgrown them. That has nothing to do with Cryptic, blame the people who made First Contact, Voyager and Enterprise. We'll see what Cryptic has in store for us next.
@ The_Collective
I was there in open beta, and I couldn't disagree more.
No, janeway beat the borg with tech from the future. i.e. she fought current day borg with tech from her future. We are fighting 'future' (from Janeway's perspective) borg who would have advanced and adapted. So the above does not make sense.
First contact still had a full fleet of fed ships striking one Borg cube and only won because of Picard's knopwedge of the Borg.
30 years ago the Borg were lightyears more advanced than the federation. How on earth could the federation have made that ground up and overtaken them?
So yes, the fact that the Borg have been spent so cheaply in this game is utterly Cryptic's fault.
Good points all , but i would like to inject what i have gleaned from many other threads on similar issues. Every time someone suggests end game raid type content, people go nuts about not wanting to turn sto into wow. I mean look at the main feature of the game. The episodes. This is where the game is heading. Pathetically easy, story driven content, once every three months.
I swear , we have a million+ habitable worlds in the milky way, full of diverse life , and the best we can get in a mission is spiders. Why does every freeking mmo known to man have spiders in it lol. i know i am ranting, but i just think sto is going the way of casual rpish gameplay.
No, janeway beat the borg with tech from the future. i.e. she fought current day borg with tech from her future. We are fighting 'future' (from Janeway's perspective) borg who would have advanced and adapted. So the above does not make sense.
Janeway brought tech from her future back to the time of the series and almost completely obliterated the Borg with it. Then the Federation had that advanced tech to build upon, meaning that they skipped decades of development. Now the Borg are returning to old strength, but the Federation has bridged the gap in technology. The Borg still have a few mean tricks, but the Federation is too strong to be just shrugged off.
First contact still had a full fleet of fed ships striking one Borg cube and only won because of Picard's knopwedge of the Borg.
Yeah, because they fired on one point of a vessel that in the series was said to be still able to operate if 78% are destroyed. But actually I meant melee. In First Contact the Borg got their assimilation tubules but also lost their terror factor against everybody who could use a holographic machine gun or a glorified knife.
30 years ago the Borg were lightyears more advanced than the federation. How on earth could the federation have made that ground up and overtaken them?
Invention and temporal warfare. The Borg have almost run out of species they can assimilate for new stuff and they are completely unable to invent new things. And as said before Admiral Janeway gave the Federation an unfair boost. The Borg can be happy that they have adapted to the point where one transphasic torpedo doesn't equal an instant kill.
I always kind of figured that the Federation, viewing the Borg as the primary threat, had been adapting and evolving their technology and tactics to deal with them over the last 50 or so years.
Then the Federation had that advanced tech to build upon, meaning that they skipped decades of development. Now the Borg are returning to old strength, but the Federation has bridged the gap in technology. The Borg still have a few mean tricks, but the Federation is too strong to be just shrugged off.
Future Janeway told her past self that the longer the Borg were exposed to the future technology the greater the chance they would adapt, meaning the Borg could adapt to technology 30 years ahead of them, designed specifically to fight them, if given the chance. She said it in the context of hours, not weeks, months or years. Good luck "outgrowing" that species.
In First Contact the Borg got their assimilation tubules but also lost their terror factor against everybody who could use a holographic machine gun or a glorified knife.
Invention and temporal warfare. The Borg have almost run out of species they can assimilate for new stuff and they are completely unable to invent new things.
What are you basing that on? That was never stated in the series or movies. The impression I got was that the Borg went for species 8472 not because they had "run out" of other species, but because assimilating the Undine would have put the Borg much closer to "perfection" than assimilating one normal species at a time.
And as said before Admiral Janeway gave the Federation an unfair boost. The Borg can be happy that they have adapted to the point where one transphasic torpedo doesn't equal an instant kill.
Not that much of a boost. Borg in TNG = force of nature. Borg in Voy = plot device. Borg in STO = annoying. Not a whole lot of adapting going on there for the Borg. Seems like a huge oversight.
From what I know, there are three main reasons for the Borg to be in their current cyber-zombie state. The assimilation virus future Janeway infected them with and the tech she gave to Voyager, the destruction of the transwarp hub, and conflict with species 8472. Considering the technology and behavior exhibited by the Borg in the shows and movies, it's very difficult to reconcile their current status in-game against the reputation they had as a veritable force of nature that could not be combated, just avoided (if you were lucky).
What was the reason given in the STF's for the sad state of Borg affairs? I was more concerned with surviving than reading the flavor text, and someone on the team typically closed the dialog long before I read it anyway.
Good points all , but i would like to inject what i have gleaned from many other threads on similar issues. Every time someone suggests end game raid type content, people go nuts about not wanting to turn sto into wow. I mean look at the main feature of the game. The episodes. This is where the game is heading. Pathetically easy, story driven content, once every three months.
I swear , we have a million+ habitable worlds in the milky way, full of diverse life , and the best we can get in a mission is spiders. Why does every freeking mmo known to man have spiders in it lol. i know i am ranting, but i just think sto is going the way of casual rpish gameplay.
Couldn't agree more. However, every time this point is made we are called 'elitest'. These weekly series', while pretty, are just so much space bar pressing fluff.
Janeway brought tech from her future back to the time of the series and almost completely obliterated the Borg with it. Then the Federation had that advanced tech to build upon, meaning that they skipped decades of development. Now the Borg are returning to old strength, but the Federation has bridged the gap in technology. The Borg still have a few mean tricks, but the Federation is too strong to be just shrugged off.
.
This doesn't work mate, the Borg would have just adapted to it quick smart and been 10 times more powerful in the future (STO's present).
Series plot aside, STO needs real Borg in play. It's not even that difficult to do. Just re-do the space borg encounters so that instead of fighting numerous ships, you battle a single monster. A single much more powerful spehere in explore B'Trans, a single diamond in defend gama and nothing short of an STF to take on a tac cube. There is NO excuse for my defiant being able to blast through a fleet of borg ships - none.
I feel that all Borg missions should have two routes through them. Solo and group. Solo mission content would be 'avoid this', 'rescue that', 'destroy X before the Borg reactivate and use it', and above all 'escape'. Group play should be more combat oriented. Not only would this give us more believable Borg, but it would help people get in the habit of teaming up and maybe help them understand the value of team-oriented play. Good training for the STF's.
She traveled around the galaxy and destroyed virtually all the Borg? I must have missed that episode.
Nope, but letting the Queeny assimilate a neurolytic pathogen blew up the whole unicomplex, onscreen and destabilised the shielding of the transwarp tunnels. No way of telling how much else just exploded when she died. The Federation even thought that the Borg were done for and dismantled the anti-Borg taskforce (Path to 2409)
Future Janeway told her past self that the longer the Borg were exposed to the future technology the greater the chance they would adapt, meaning the Borg could adapt to technology 30 years ahead of them, designed specifically to fight them, if given the chance. She said it in the context of hours, not weeks, months or years. Good luck "outgrowing" that species.
Well, now the technology is over 60 years ahead, and yes, the Borg have adapted. Or would you pick a fight with 3 cubes at the same time in an Intrepid?
What are you basing that on? That was never stated in the series or movies. The impression I got was that the Borg went for species 8472 not because they had "run out" of other species, but because assimilating the Undine would have put the Borg much closer to "perfection" than assimilating one normal species at a time.
It wasn't said, but would you say that the Borg developed since First Contact (not mentioning that the evolution from TNG to FC was similar like the one of the Klingons from TOS to TMP). We know that the Borg ignore species that have no interesting technology like the Kazon. We don't see much races that have stuff the Borg can still find interesting. They have almost everything, except Undine biotechnology and a few things like metaphasic shielding. They have assimilated themselves into a dead end.
Not that much of a boost. Borg in TNG = force of nature. Borg in Voy = plot device. Borg in STO = annoying. Not a whole lot of adapting going on there for the Borg. Seems like a huge oversight.
How you list it, it looks like a natural progression. The Borg still adapt well on the ground. In space, well, they need something like the Aegis set bonus.
From what I know, there are three main reasons for the Borg to be in their current cyber-zombie state. The assimilation virus future Janeway infected them with and the tech she gave to Voyager, the destruction of the transwarp hub, and conflict with species 8472. Considering the technology and behavior exhibited by the Borg in the shows and movies, it's very difficult to reconcile their current status in-game against the reputation they had as a veritable force of nature that could not be combated, just avoided (if you were lucky).
Well, Janeway actively hunted the Borg at times for a single crewmember. They definitely weren't that scary in Voyager. And heck, they even let Archer kill some Borg that were centuries ahead of him.
What was the reason given in the STF's for the sad state of Borg affairs? I was more concerned with surviving than reading the flavor text, and someone on the team typically closed the dialog long before I read it anyway.
Z
From what I read the Borg in the tutorial were older models that were stored there, disconnected from the collective and are already beaten right after they wake up by the time.travelling future admirals in the STF, so your ensign in the tutorial just mopped up the left-overs
This doesn't work mate, the Borg would have just adapted to it quick smart and been 10 times more powerful in the future (STO's present).
Sorry, but the Borg have reached their adaptive limit. They could maybe become dangerous again if they manage to assimilate 8472 or the Iconians. But now they are at the limit and we are up there with them. Or to explain it with the Narrator's Guide from the Star Trek RPG. In the series the Federation had tech-level 8 (Enterprise 7) and the Borg had tech-level 9 (Q, Douwd and Metrons 10). Now the Federation has advanced to tech-level 8, we have transwarp, we have advanced AI's and soon androids will be common. We are no longer small when compared with the Borg. Live with it.
Remember your first play through? When you loaded up the game and the first thing you see is that you're in a version of Ten forward.. And then you see the Borg out the window & you're like "Oh **** no.."
But then you find out there's something "weird" about these Borg, so you forgive them for being so weak..
Then, when you get to Rear Admiral, and you get permission to transwarp to Gamma Orionis, and you know you're about to face the collective, about to deal with the full-on, un-weird, bad-*** Borg you remember, and you're excited, but just the tiniest bit scared too...
And then you one-shot a Sphere.. And you're disappointed all over again.
I want the Borg to be hard, and I want the rewards for taking them on to be exclusive and considerably better than than run-of-the-mill gear.
It's available in-game, you too can get it, you just have to learn to play on a team and vs the Borg to get it.
I would even say they (the Borg, not the STFs) should be harder. Fights with Borg in missions shouldn't be the standard groups we have now, but singular far more powerful versions of Probes, Spheres, Patrol cubes, and Tactical cubes.
"Defend the Gamma Orionis Sector Block" is a joke in my eyes. If we must have a DSE in Gamma Orionis, it should be vs a single, humongous Cube, 8 times the mass of the "normal" cubes we see, more like the cubes from Wolf 359 or the Battle of Sector 001. With five scripts, four independent targeting scripts (one to each side of the Cube) capable of having the one Cube target multiple ships at the same time, and a piloting script to determine her coarse.
We should be fighting the Crystalline Cube, not the hordes o' Borg balloons (pop easy and often).
I have repeatedly said the Borg need to be buffed, and I stand by it.
With the addition of the Borg set, the smallest group of Borg we see should be three partially assimilated (Borg Set outfitted) ships, Fed, KDF, Cardassian, a random assortment would do nicely.
The second level should be a Borg probe, upgraded to roughly the same difficulty of the current Borg Spheres, accompanied by several partially assimilated ships. (It should also have it's model made into something more like this.)
The third level should be a Borg Sphere, upgrades to the level of the current Borg Cubes.
The Borg Cubes should have the firepower and resilience of the current Borg Tactical Cube.
The Borg Tactical Cube should have armor and shield resistances and weapons buffs over and beyond their current level.
The sixth, and final Borg ship we see in any kind of commonality should be what I think of as the "Assimilation Cube" the hulking, uber-powerful Cubes that they sent to assimilate Earth each time. Twice as tall, wide, and thick as the Borg cubes we're dealing with now, with 8 times the mass. It should be reserved for a Crystalline Entity-type Fleet Action.
Each level should be able to resist and adapt to the conditions they encounter.
Gaining 1% resistance to each weapon type used against it every ten seconds, with different plateaus for each level. The partially assimilated ships plateau at 10%, Probes at 20%, Spheres at 30%, Cubes at 40%, Tactical cubes at 50%, and Assimilation Cubes at 60%.
It seems I'm not far off in predicting what most players want the Borg to be.
Nope, but letting the Queeny assimilate a neurolytic pathogen blew up the whole unicomplex, onscreen and destabilised the shielding of the transwarp tunnels. No way of telling how much else just exploded when she died. The Federation even thought that the Borg were done for and dismantled the anti-Borg taskforce (Path to 2409)
Well, now the technology is over 60 years ahead, and yes, the Borg have adapted. Or would you pick a fight with 3 cubes at the same time in an Intrepid?
It wasn't said, but would you say that the Borg developed since First Contact (not mentioning that the evolution from TNG to FC was similar like the one of the Klingons from TOS to TMP). We know that the Borg ignore species that have no interesting technology like the Kazon. We don't see much races that have stuff the Borg can still find interesting. They have almost everything, except Undine biotechnology and a few things like metaphasic shielding. They have assimilated themselves into a dead end.
How you list it, it looks like a natural progression. The Borg still adapt well on the ground. In space, well, they need something like the Aegis set bonus.
Well, Janeway actively hunted the Borg at times for a single crewmember. They definitely weren't that scary in Voyager. And heck, they even let Archer kill some Borg that were centuries ahead of him.
From what I read the Borg in the tutorial were older models that were stored there, disconnected from the collective and are already beaten right after they wake up by the time.travelling future admirals in the STF, so your ensign in the tutorial just mopped up the left-overs
Sorry, but the Borg have reached their adaptive limit. They could maybe become dangerous again if they manage to assimilate 8472 or the Iconians. But now they are at the limit and we are up there with them. Or to explain it with the Narrator's Guide from the Star Trek RPG. In the series the Federation had tech-level 8 (Enterprise 7) and the Borg had tech-level 9 (Q, Douwd and Metrons 10). Now the Federation has advanced to tech-level 8, we have transwarp, we have advanced AI's and soon androids will be common. We are no longer small when compared with the Borg. Live with it.
Sorry but Star Trek RPG is not canon or anything even close. Live with it. The Federation did not/could not have caught up with the borg and be only a 'tech' level or two behind species that have been in space for milenia or the Q who can do literally anything, they especially could not have almost caught up in only 30 years that's patently stupid. Star Trek RPG sounds ridiculous to me, but then as it isn't canon I don't have to worry about it do I?
And where does this tech ranking system put all the species that sit between the Federation and the Borg? All those many species from series' that are considerbaly more powerful than the federation but not as powerful as the borg?
And, did the rest of the universe just sit still in terms of growth, evolution and tech while the feds and klinks advanced beyond all recognition?
Where does the enterprise J fit into this tech system? Nowehere, that's where.
How the hell did the Borg plateau? Surely they did not run out of species and new tech in an area the size of a galaxy?
Saying that the Q are only a step up from the borg is also garbage.
In the mean time, back in the universe that we all know and love - the federation in STO is ridiculously OP compared to the Borg who should still be relatively devestating. 30 years have passed not 300.
Comments
Anyone remeber when the game was being sold on the basis of the galaxy splitting fed/klink war? What happened to that? The galaxy disolved into a mass of quantity over quality - that's what happened. (in terms of canon races not in terms of the game as a whole)
To be honest, Voyager wasted the Borg. TNG they were a thing to be feared. Voyager comes along, and suddenly the Borg are "just another race, yawn" to be negotiated with, and treated like the Khazon, or the Dominion. First Contact started that slide though with the introduction of the Queen, and having her talk and act like a normal person.
Agreed.
However I also agree utterly with your OP. Why missions were never designed that involved a huge team of fed ships battling against a single terrifying cube is anyone's guess.
Even Tactical Cubes have been utterly wasted - they are taken down with some ease in STFs with 5 ships.
Entire fleets of Borg ships require fewer fed ships to kill than the Crystalline Entity.
None of it makes sense and the way the borg have been used in this game is dissapointing across the board. As I say, imo what could have been STO's trump card has been wasted.
The player's first experience of fighting the borg should have been a watershed moment that we all remember and talk about for as long as we play the game. As it is they are wheeled in and used up within 5 minutes of creating a toon.
Really tragic.
Pull the Borg back into their own space. Mod some stats maybe. Make them a little bit tougher. Give their ground units a slightly better than normal shield regen(ala adaptation). Give their ships a bit of a natural hull regen(ala regeneration). And finally, toss one of those fleet actions I mentioned in my original post into their space.
Fleshing them out story wise can come later, after some of the other races get the love they so desperately need in that area, like Klingons and Romulans.
These are not necessarily even big changes. A couple of number shifts, and a unit swap out in the tutorial. Granted, that last one might be a little bigger. But in the end it would really kick some life back into the Borg.
I hold true to my original outlook that, back when the Klingons were purely PvP, the Borg should have been made the pure PvP playable race, and left the Klingons as members of the Federation.
((Yes, I'm being super posty on this, I'm very passionate about this topic, and very bored at the moment.))
The borg cube appearing on sensors should be a 'white knuckle grip on the mouse' moment. 1 should be enough for this. I don't really want to see fleets of Borg, it implies a weakness they do not have.
My views on how they *******ized Species 8472(Undine) is an entirely different thread all together.
Refugee Borg is just the lazy man's excuse for pandering to the people who cry foul when they get beat because they weren't prepared.
The Borg were handed on a silver platter a weapon capable of completely annihilating Species 8472, and the Borg are the undesputed MASTERS of adaptation. It's the one thing that made them so scary to begin with.
What made them scary wasn't their constant adaptation, it's the way they consumed you, belly of the beast and all. There are some fates worse than death, so to speak. It's what makes Seven of Nine's backstory so chilling. Small family of scientists seek to understand the borg and end up being consumed by them through simple bad luck/
They were scary in the same way a guy who busts down your door with a blood soaked axe is scary. He's scary because there is no ambiguity to his intentions. You know what he's there for, he knows what he's there for and you know this will probably not turn out well for you.
But this axeman doesn't kill you, he takes you apart, he keeps you alive, but he eviscerates you nevertheless.
The adaptibility just meant that there was an actual element of danger for Starfleet. Hell, Q is more dangerous than the Borg could ever hope to be... but Q never made me scared the way the Borg did.
I like to think that the Q have a healthy respect for the Borg. Mainly because if a Borg ever assimilated a Q, they would become unstoppable. And Q has hinted at aspects of the Continuum that lead one to believe that such a thing would be possible.
And I entirely agree with you. The Borg SHOULD'VE been the big bad boogieman. I could even see "For Especial Penalties" if you failed against them... like that character was unavailable for 60 minutes bec ause they had been assimilated and needed to be rescued or some sort of silliness.
Make us sweat.
Although I agree with everithing you say.... there are already several threads about that topic arround here....
I would actually go for this, if it were possible. Not saying that it isn't, I'm just trying to think from the game designer point of view as well. As well as the angry, forum rage gamer who will no doubt complain that their "main is unavailable for a whole minute because they lost a fight".
Now, I'm gonna go to bed as I should have done five hours ago and check back here when I wake up.
Are you surprised? really? Anyone who was here in open beta (yes, shameless plug) can tell you that STO was NOT designed by ANYONE who knew ANYTHING about Star Trek beyond a microsoft word summarised version of the Star Trek wikipedia pages.
The changes since have been giving the impression that the design teams have been reading memory alpha and watching an episode here and there, but the writers still have no idea what Star Trek is about.
The game will change and become a more Trek-like experience when Foundry goes live and real Trekkies create missions that put Cryptic to shame - or the new executive producer pulls his finger out and makes the dev team and writers take a couple weeks off to watch all of star trek and then actually write appropriately
Anyway, a special mission. It starts out simply enough, go scan that or transport Y to Z, and you encounter the the borg. What do the borg to best, they adapt and assimilate right? Well, I know they did that already ( that undine mission) but why not do it again. This time it is a different species or creature like say preservers or something relatively untouched as yet by cryptic, with a good story behind it, to keep it new and interesting. But this time, the mission is designed for you to fail. Thus the borg succeed, when this is done. After this is over you get maybe a special movie, and the borg are once again the big nasty they were and then quite a bit more. Once you do that, your borg are now new borg ever after, and those who have not done the mission have the current old borg.
Something along those lines might make for a great expansion or mega update and make the borg a fearsome foe again too.
I love the idea of a no win scenario and it has strong precident in Trek canon. I would welcome anythng which relaunches the borg in this game, which is, I think, what you are proposing.
A new 'tier' of Borg is needed now that the originals have been spent so cheaply. Perhaps the Borg invasion has been stalled so they call for reinforcements from the Delta Quadrant? Federation ships have advanced in the last 30 years to the point where they can blow up cubes yet the Borg have not advanced at all - this most adaptive of races...really?
@ The_Collective
I was there in open beta, and I couldn't disagree more.
No, janeway beat the borg with tech from the future. i.e. she fought current day borg with tech from her future. We are fighting 'future' (from Janeway's perspective) borg who would have advanced and adapted. So the above does not make sense.
First contact still had a full fleet of fed ships striking one Borg cube and only won because of Picard's knopwedge of the Borg.
30 years ago the Borg were lightyears more advanced than the federation. How on earth could the federation have made that ground up and overtaken them?
So yes, the fact that the Borg have been spent so cheaply in this game is utterly Cryptic's fault.
I swear , we have a million+ habitable worlds in the milky way, full of diverse life , and the best we can get in a mission is spiders. Why does every freeking mmo known to man have spiders in it lol. i know i am ranting, but i just think sto is going the way of casual rpish gameplay.
Janeway brought tech from her future back to the time of the series and almost completely obliterated the Borg with it. Then the Federation had that advanced tech to build upon, meaning that they skipped decades of development. Now the Borg are returning to old strength, but the Federation has bridged the gap in technology. The Borg still have a few mean tricks, but the Federation is too strong to be just shrugged off.
Yeah, because they fired on one point of a vessel that in the series was said to be still able to operate if 78% are destroyed. But actually I meant melee. In First Contact the Borg got their assimilation tubules but also lost their terror factor against everybody who could use a holographic machine gun or a glorified knife.
Invention and temporal warfare. The Borg have almost run out of species they can assimilate for new stuff and they are completely unable to invent new things. And as said before Admiral Janeway gave the Federation an unfair boost. The Borg can be happy that they have adapted to the point where one transphasic torpedo doesn't equal an instant kill.
She traveled around the galaxy and destroyed virtually all the Borg? I must have missed that episode.
Future Janeway told her past self that the longer the Borg were exposed to the future technology the greater the chance they would adapt, meaning the Borg could adapt to technology 30 years ahead of them, designed specifically to fight them, if given the chance. She said it in the context of hours, not weeks, months or years. Good luck "outgrowing" that species.
Word. That was stupid.
What are you basing that on? That was never stated in the series or movies. The impression I got was that the Borg went for species 8472 not because they had "run out" of other species, but because assimilating the Undine would have put the Borg much closer to "perfection" than assimilating one normal species at a time.
Not that much of a boost. Borg in TNG = force of nature. Borg in Voy = plot device. Borg in STO = annoying. Not a whole lot of adapting going on there for the Borg. Seems like a huge oversight.
From what I know, there are three main reasons for the Borg to be in their current cyber-zombie state. The assimilation virus future Janeway infected them with and the tech she gave to Voyager, the destruction of the transwarp hub, and conflict with species 8472. Considering the technology and behavior exhibited by the Borg in the shows and movies, it's very difficult to reconcile their current status in-game against the reputation they had as a veritable force of nature that could not be combated, just avoided (if you were lucky).
What was the reason given in the STF's for the sad state of Borg affairs? I was more concerned with surviving than reading the flavor text, and someone on the team typically closed the dialog long before I read it anyway.
Z
Couldn't agree more. However, every time this point is made we are called 'elitest'. These weekly series', while pretty, are just so much space bar pressing fluff.
This doesn't work mate, the Borg would have just adapted to it quick smart and been 10 times more powerful in the future (STO's present).
Series plot aside, STO needs real Borg in play. It's not even that difficult to do. Just re-do the space borg encounters so that instead of fighting numerous ships, you battle a single monster. A single much more powerful spehere in explore B'Trans, a single diamond in defend gama and nothing short of an STF to take on a tac cube. There is NO excuse for my defiant being able to blast through a fleet of borg ships - none.
Z
Nope, but letting the Queeny assimilate a neurolytic pathogen blew up the whole unicomplex, onscreen and destabilised the shielding of the transwarp tunnels. No way of telling how much else just exploded when she died. The Federation even thought that the Borg were done for and dismantled the anti-Borg taskforce (Path to 2409)
Well, now the technology is over 60 years ahead, and yes, the Borg have adapted. Or would you pick a fight with 3 cubes at the same time in an Intrepid?
It wasn't said, but would you say that the Borg developed since First Contact (not mentioning that the evolution from TNG to FC was similar like the one of the Klingons from TOS to TMP). We know that the Borg ignore species that have no interesting technology like the Kazon. We don't see much races that have stuff the Borg can still find interesting. They have almost everything, except Undine biotechnology and a few things like metaphasic shielding. They have assimilated themselves into a dead end.
How you list it, it looks like a natural progression. The Borg still adapt well on the ground. In space, well, they need something like the Aegis set bonus.
Well, Janeway actively hunted the Borg at times for a single crewmember. They definitely weren't that scary in Voyager. And heck, they even let Archer kill some Borg that were centuries ahead of him.
From what I read the Borg in the tutorial were older models that were stored there, disconnected from the collective and are already beaten right after they wake up by the time.travelling future admirals in the STF, so your ensign in the tutorial just mopped up the left-overs
Sorry, but the Borg have reached their adaptive limit. They could maybe become dangerous again if they manage to assimilate 8472 or the Iconians. But now they are at the limit and we are up there with them. Or to explain it with the Narrator's Guide from the Star Trek RPG. In the series the Federation had tech-level 8 (Enterprise 7) and the Borg had tech-level 9 (Q, Douwd and Metrons 10). Now the Federation has advanced to tech-level 8, we have transwarp, we have advanced AI's and soon androids will be common. We are no longer small when compared with the Borg. Live with it.
Borg tech for everyone please..
Idea about Borg.
It seems I'm not far off in predicting what most players want the Borg to be.
Sorry but Star Trek RPG is not canon or anything even close. Live with it. The Federation did not/could not have caught up with the borg and be only a 'tech' level or two behind species that have been in space for milenia or the Q who can do literally anything, they especially could not have almost caught up in only 30 years that's patently stupid. Star Trek RPG sounds ridiculous to me, but then as it isn't canon I don't have to worry about it do I?
And where does this tech ranking system put all the species that sit between the Federation and the Borg? All those many species from series' that are considerbaly more powerful than the federation but not as powerful as the borg?
And, did the rest of the universe just sit still in terms of growth, evolution and tech while the feds and klinks advanced beyond all recognition?
Where does the enterprise J fit into this tech system? Nowehere, that's where.
How the hell did the Borg plateau? Surely they did not run out of species and new tech in an area the size of a galaxy?
Saying that the Q are only a step up from the borg is also garbage.
In the mean time, back in the universe that we all know and love - the federation in STO is ridiculously OP compared to the Borg who should still be relatively devestating. 30 years have passed not 300.