test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

LOL at Optional DP

12324252729

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    JamesH2010 wrote:
    Its already a given we are getting some kind of DP. What it is noone knows but we do know its optional. The debate now is more about what that DP should or shouldnt be and whether there should be any difference between people who have it on and people who do not.

    I agree that was kind of a redundent statement but a nessessary one to the person i quoted. i never wanted a DP from the beginning but congrats to those who pushed for it but its not good enough for then to get what they wanted when its been made optional. From what ive read so far here they are insulted by the fact its optional. Like YAY we win the DP debate and are getting what we wanted Oh wait NO we didnt win we were given a compromise NONO that not a victory if both sides get what they want. It has nothing to do with it being oprional but everything to do with the fact no one really won this debate. they will only be happy if they impose their way onto those who see it different.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:

    I don't play LOTRO cause I HATE TOLKIEN :D

    :eek: Ok, now you have gone TOO FAR!!! :rolleyes:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    JamesH2010 wrote:
    You ever tried lord of the rings online? The past year they have added more content than they did the first 2. Its really an awesome game now.

    I do give LOTRO credit for that. I only play when I get my High Fantasy Jones, but they've done a great job providing new content.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    MarkStone wrote: »
    :eek: Ok, now you have gone TOO FAR!!! :rolleyes:

    I had a feeling you would say something like that. ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I agree that was kind of a redundent statement but a nessessary one to the person i quoted. i never wanted a DP from the beginning but congrats to those who pushed for it but its not good enough for then to get what they wanted when its been made optional. From what ive read so far here they are insulted by the fact its optional. Like YAY we win the DP debate and are getting what we wanted Oh wait NO we didnt win we were given a compromise NONO that not a victory if both sides get what they want. It has nothing to do with it being oprional but everything to do with the fact no one really won this debate. they will only be happy if they impose their way onto those who see it different.

    This isnt what I am saying at least at all. I am saying I want a level playing field for everyone. You turn on the DP and I turn it off without any incentive I am at a disadvantage. I do not care if its optional or not. Just saying if people DO choose to turn it on they should be able to have some sort of perk for doing so. If everyone was affected the same way (global DP or no global DP) then everyone is even.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    The only games that have a real DP are mmos which only make up a much smaller % than 99.99999%

    It seems you are right so if thats the case among other so called DPs youve mentioned in all the games ive mentioned. Then STO already has a couple of DPs all in one cause everytime i die in pvp and loose the match its a DP, Everytime i die in space pve i respawn at the beginning with most of my crew wounded and have to fly all the way back to the fight not to mention my countdown timers havent reset thats a DP. When i die on the ground in pve i respawn all the way back at the beginning and have to run all the way back to get in the fight and in infected the room respawns back to the way it was pre fight thats a DP. oh yea and my countdowns dont reset on the ground thats a DP. If we already have all these DPs why do we need more.

    Yep, STO has some death penalties. The one in PVP, I'm fine with. The PVE one, not so much a penalty. You respawn with full health and shields. Maybe not crew, but who cares, I can't even tell what they do. And all enemies don't reset to like the beginning of the encounter, like they would in Dragon Age.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    JamesH2010 wrote:
    This isnt what I am saying at least at all. I am saying I want a level playing field for everyone. You turn on the DP and I turn it off without any incentive I am at a disadvantage. I do not care if its optional or not. Just saying if people DO choose to turn it on they should be able to have some sort of perk for doing so. If everyone was affected the same way (global DP or no global DP) then everyone is even.

    Im sorry i kinda got off on a rant after quoting you but according to the podcast i listened to with Jack Emmet he did mention those who do op for the dp will get better loot. The way teams are now it wont change anything for the guy who opted out cause ive been in many teams where i got batteries and a few others got white and green and rarely a blue drop. so if you took the dp and i didnt you would have a better chance or a 100% of getting something better for risking a penelty and id get the same ole battery, white, green and rarely blue drop. i dont see that as being a problem as for the difficulty slider if they use the same setup as DDO everyone has to choose the difficulty first chosen or they cant enter. I think a Difficulty slider with better loot drops makes more sence than a DP.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Im sorry i kinda got off on a rant after quoting you but according to the podcast i listened to with Jack Emmet he did mention those who do op for the dp will get better loot. The way teams are now it wont change anything for the guy who opted out cause ive been in many teams where i got batteries and a few others got white and green and rarely a blue drop. so if you took the dp and i didnt you would have a better chance or a 100% of getting something better for risking a penelty and id get the same ole battery, white, green and rarely blue drop. i dont see that as being a problem as for the difficulty slider if they use the same setup as DDO everyone has to choose the difficulty first chosen or they cant enter. I think a Difficulty slider with better loot drops makes more sence than a DP.

    How much you want to bet it really isnt much of a perk for turning it on? I get so sick of getting batteries or some food plate everytime I loot something. Kill a massive battleship its really hard and 3 levls above you. When after a couple tries you finally beat it just to get some battery is irritating to say the least. I like the way DDO does its favor (rep) system also. If you go in on elite you get max favor instead of having to keep repeating it at easier levels to max out the stuff.

    I remember doing the cult of the six loot runs heh was pretty fun times.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    They desolve because the good players want to go looking for a group that they feel can get them through the situation. If these DPs are so terrible, how come there are 11 million people playing WoW? Why didn't everyone just ragequit when they couldn't get through that certain instance? They didn't quit because the felt like they could get through it, with the right combination of people. It wasn't because they could put it on easy mode and solo the content for the same loot.

    Late reply, but you're missing the point. The DP had nothing to do with the success or failure of a raid/instance/whatever. Good teamwork does. When your raid wipes you have to start the encounter over again completely. The wipe could have happened because someone screwed up, or because your tactics weren't right, or whatever. The way you beat the encounter is by sharpening up your game.

    The DP has nothing at all to do with this. You either have good tactics and you succeed or you repeatedly fail. Its as simple as that. All the DP does is increase the frustration level, causing people to focus on that, rather than trying to beat the encounter. People don't ragequit an entire game because of a bad session. But they will ragequit raids, leaving the rest of the team in a lurch.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    paynesgrey wrote: »
    I do give LOTRO credit for that. I only play when I get my High Fantasy Jones, but they've done a great job providing new content.

    Amusingly enough the Forums have been filled with constant rants about lack of content being released. Poor raids, new raid armor sucks, Mirkwood was tiny, since Moria only two areas, and the start of Chapter III is just running across the old land. Further add in that we payed for the "mini-expansion" and got skirmishes that are just the same thing repeated over and over on the same landscape and we were ripped off. The complaints have died down somewhat recently, but they are still voiced quite often. Then lets not talk about Radiance gating as that will go on for pages upon pages.

    Personally I agree that the game has had some great content added. But then I also think that STO was an OK launch (nothing special either way), has a great potential, and in the next 6 months or so will flesh out into a nice MMO. As such I do not agree with either forum on their own game but tend to agree with each respective forum on the other game (that is STO talks nice about LOTRO and LOTRO talks nice about STO, both rant about their own content - though LOTRO has less ranting but it is also less accepted by the community too).

    If always found that, amusingly enough, game forums are always of the mind that the grass is always greener elsewhere.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    My thought? If its optional, Im opting out. Cause opting in would be stupid lol like the idea imo.
    Best pert of LORTO was the music system imo. The rest was meh.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    strcpy wrote: »
    Amusingly enough the Forums have been filled with constant rants about lack of content being released. Poor raids, new raid armor sucks, Mirkwood was tiny, since Moria only two areas, and the start of Chapter III is just running across the old land. Further add in that we payed for the "mini-expansion" and got skirmishes that are just the same thing repeated over and over on the same landscape and we were ripped off. The complaints have died down somewhat recently, but they are still voiced quite often. Then lets not talk about Radiance gating as that will go on for pages upon pages.

    Personally I agree that the game has had some great content added. But then I also think that STO was an OK launch (nothing special either way), has a great potential, and in the next 6 months or so will flesh out into a nice MMO. As such I do not agree with either forum on their own game but tend to agree with each respective forum on the other game (that is STO talks nice about LOTRO and LOTRO talks nice about STO, both rant about their own content - though LOTRO has less ranting but it is also less accepted by the community too).

    If always found that, amusingly enough, game forums are always of the mind that the grass is always greener elsewhere.

    Ya the forums are always full of (well almost full of) mainly jaded people. The happy people are playing the game and do not have time to post stuff.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I liked the XP debt decay. Earth and Beyond had it, as well. This is the answer to the 'casuals' problem. Their XP debt decays while they aren't playing. So they probably won't ever have to directly deal with it.

    I played Earth and Beyond quite a bit.(see my sig and avatar pic).

    However, that XP decay death penalty was still pretty harsh for us casual players when you got up to the mid to higher tier in the game where it could take a while to get rid of that debt WHILE STILL PLAYING THE GAME. :D

    It was great some of it went away later when you were logged off, but why force you to leave the game to not have to deal with the XP debt you recently earned. I'm hoping this game does not use a similar potential time sink.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You still proceed from the incorrect assumption that others participate in sports or other forms of competition for the same reasons you do. For YOU winning is important. For YOU the trophy is what matters. I know of others who go out and play some softball, football or golf just to get outside and enjoy the weather. Who wins has zero to do with why they play. They do it to have fun and enjoy spending time together.
    paynesgrey wrote: »
    Why do you feel that every other person playing the game should be required to compete with you? No offense, but I'm not interested in competing with you, or in how that disinterest affects your feelings, your need to compete. I don't play the game for competition, barring the once in a blue moon forray into a PvP match. Has it occured to you that there are players who just aren't interested in competing with you? People not interested in losing gear, resources, or play time simply because it'll make you feel better knowing that they did?

    You just plain can't have fun if someone else doesn't lose something?

    Optional DP allows those who share your needs to compete against each other. If it's as popular, as important to the very fabric of Fun as you say, then you'll have plenty of company. Feel free to ignore those of us who don't like Corpse Runs or aren't interested in comparing geekpeens.

    That's like running to Teacher and saying "Those other kids are playing their kickball game and not even keeping score! They don't even make the losers eat a worm! I can't play kickball with my friends knowing that those other guys over there aren't playing the way I like! Make everybody on the playground keep score, and make all the losers eat a worm or I can't have fun!"

    I can understand these arguments, but you fail to realize you do not play this game alone. MMO is actually a community, not just some number of separate players who just happen to appear on same place. And competition is what MMOs should be about, because in other aspects they cant compare and compete with singleplayer games. Competition makes MMOs unique. What you say about enjoying game alone (or with your friends) without caring about community, that is singleplayer game thing (those ones can be played in multiplayer mode as well so you can play with friends even in those).

    But MMO is big community of all who play it, not just you alone or your friends. Making DP optional is like... well like if you make taxes optional - no one in community will pay taxes if you make them optional. So devs have to decide if they want DP for all or not - but they cannot make it option really.

    What I want to say is, you cant separate yourself from MMO community, you are part of it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Excorant wrote: »
    And competition is what MMOs should be about, because in other aspects they cant compare and compete with singleplayer games. Competition makes MMOs unique.
    So, what's the competition in MMOs, exactly, outside of PvP? To be better than others? To level up faster?

    If the former, I disagree. Nothing I like better than to see mediocre players get it together and become superb players, unless it's being the FNG on a really good team of vets and learning from their example. No competitiveness there - no desire on my part to be better than someone else - just to improve my own gameplay for the sake of getting more enjoyment out of the game. On that note, I'd recommend reading Raph Koster's "Theory of Fun" for an interesting take on games.

    If the latter, I'd argue that level-based systems tend to disrupt the very community that you seem to think is important. In the absence of a "sideckick" mechanic, if you out-level your cohort, you tend to interact with them less, and you're faced with the prospect of breaking into a new group of people. Communities are based on one-on-one or small group interactions over time - otherwise, you really are just one single player among a horde of single players.

    In either case, what does competition in an MMO even matter? At the end of the day, our participation in this or any other MMO just gains us a little more entertainment value than whatever other options are available. You may find entertainment in your illusion of competitiveness, but that's not true for everyone.
    But MMO is big community of all who play it, not just you alone or your friends. Making DP optional is like... well like if you make taxes optional - no one in community will pay taxes if you make them optional.
    Drop the analogies - none of 'em work. If you don't make your argument for non-optional DPs directly, you risk confusing and obscuring the issue.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Kolikos wrote:
    So, what's the competition in MMOs, exactly, outside of PvP? To be better than others? To level up faster?

    If the former, I disagree. Nothing I like better than to see mediocre players get it together and become superb players, unless it's being the FNG on a really good team of vets and learning from their example. No competitiveness there - no desire on my part to be better than someone else - just to improve my own gameplay for the sake of getting more enjoyment out of the game. On that note, I'd recommend reading Raph Koster's "Theory of Fun" for an interesting take on games.

    If the latter, I'd argue that level-based systems tend to disrupt the very community that you seem to think is important. In the absence of a "sideckick" mechanic, if you out-level your cohort, you tend to interact with them less, and you're faced with the prospect of breaking into a new group of people. Communities are based on one-on-one or small group interactions over time - otherwise, you really are just one single player among a horde of single players.

    In either case, what does competition in an MMO even matter? At the end of the day, our participation in this or any other MMO just gains us a little more entertainment value than whatever other options are available. You may find entertainment in your illusion of competitiveness, but that's not true for everyone.

    Drop the analogies - none of 'em work. If you don't make your argument for non-optional DPs directly, you risk confusing and obscuring the issue.

    Oki I drop analogies then and tell it to you directly. If a community has optional rules, this means the rules are not being followed. If you have a rule that is enforced, then the rule will work. If you have a rule and each member of community can decide if he will follow that rule or not (while not following rule having no negative consequences), then the rule will not be followed. This means optional DP = no one will use it. If they implement rewards for playing under DP/higher difficulty = maybe someone will use it (but only in case the rewards are big enough, dont expect players to use DP for getting items they can get for Honor/Exploration Marks/Badges).

    And about first question... well I answered it already yesterday, but now it is like 30 or more pages back. Its actually the first one - be better than other players and be rewarded for it. Classic competition like everywhere else. I understand that many players just want to relax in this game, but MMOs really shouldnt be like that - MMOs should have something more than singleplayer games have. I also understand STO is a game designed for Star Trek fans more than gamers, so I dont have that big expectations towards my suggestions being implemented.

    I want this game to come close to Ultima Online before Trammel or to Darkfall in the terms of rules. I know it wont happen here and is unrealistic, but I will support any idea that can shift the game (even only a little) towards this direction. Thats all.

    Edit: BTW I found much better way of sorting things than optional DP and optional difficulty. Making another server for gamers, casuals can stay where they are =)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I totally agree that XP debt in CoX is not punative enough to discourage zerging. It's not meant to. It's meant as a timesink, nothing more. The developers of CoX learned a long time ago harsh punishments != fun for the majority of the players they are targeting with their game.
    AmKit wrote:
    Take CoX for example. Hypothetically, let's say if you get sent to the hospital twice while on a Task Force, you are removed from the Task Force. Would that discourage a team from zerging the Task Force? I believe it would.

    Having played CoX six years and having a decent idea of what type of players the playerbase is, I believe it would lead to TFs hardly ever being run by the majority, only a select few. That's what it would accomplish.
    My point is if you have a harsh enough DP, you will discourage zerging and you will encourage safety and teamwork.

    And again I will disagree. A harsh DP will not in any way, shape or form encourage teaming. Hypothetically speaking, you and a few others are in a mission/TF and you're all about to die and the one healing toon can save one of you. Now, that healer has a choice... save themself and avoid the DP or save someone else and incur the harsh DP (lets use your example of being kicked from the TF). Which do you think people will choose? Themselves or you?

    Now, how do you solve this problem? Simple. Find others who want to play the same way you do. Put in the effort to find those people and you will get the reward. It does not take a lot of effort at all.
    I am in a small fleet. We don't have enough to do a Fleet Action by ourselves. Yes, we can put in time and effort to find others who play in the same style, but wouldn't it be easier if the game played matchmaker for you? ... Not everyone reads zone chat and not everyone reads the forums.

    The game does not need to play matchmaker for you to find like-minded players, nor should it. The tools are already in place for you to find like minded people. I've shown you examples of how it can be done. Hang out in Sol and greet players as they beam in. Introduce yourself. Tell them about your fleet. Ask them questions and get to know them. You can have reps hanging out at Sol, K-7 or any other starbase to recruit potential players to your fleet. When you are auto-teamed, say "hello" in team chat. Strike up a conversation.

    I've done this and already made several friends in the game. It really is not hard.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Quick! Someone get a spray can of Thread-B-Gone!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Excorant wrote: »
    This means optional DP = no one will use it.

    Total BS. Anyone who wanted one will now have one. Prove how awesome you really are and how much "better" you are than everyone else and keep it on permanently.

    If you don't, you're a complete hippocrite and so is anyone else who wanted a DP and doesn't enable it.
    MMO is actually a community, not just some number of separate players who just happen to appear on same place. And competition is what MMOs should be about, because in other aspects they cant compare and compete with singleplayer games.

    This is also nonsense. MMOs are about fun. For you, harsh competition with strict rules is fun and there is nothing wrong with that. Go find a game that suits you in this regard and play that. Those who want more casual gameplay can do the same.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Total BS. Anyone who wanted one will now have one. Prove how awesome you really are and how much "better" you are than everyone else and keep it on permanently.
    If you don't, you're a complete hippocrite and so is anyone else who wanted a DP and doesn't enable it.

    This is also nonsense. MMOs are about fun. For you, harsh competition with strict rules is fun and there is nothing wrong with that. Go find a game that suits you in this regard and play that. Those who want more casual gameplay can do the same.

    Hah crippling yourself really doesnt make you better than others, so I dont get why should I enable DP just for myself. Its no hypocrisy really - I want DP for all players and my reasons are buried inside this thread =)

    I just think the main difference in our opinions is about what MMO is - I say a community, you say it isnt. My view of MMO as community also affects my view on DP and how it should work.

    All this just confirms my idea we need more servers here with separate rules. Dont know why theres just one - but maybe once it will happen. And BTW about the "Go find a game..." statement I just can tell you to do the same =)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    If a DP is put in, it shouldn't be optional. Just put it in or leave it out. Done.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    PERMADEATH....

    jk jk
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    DanaDark wrote: »
    PERMADEATH....

    jk jk

    I fully support it, as long as it is optional.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Excorant wrote: »
    Oki I drop analogies then and tell it to you directly. If a community has optional rules, this means the rules are not being followed. If you have a rule that is enforced, then the rule will work.
    This brings us to the questions, however, of what purpose the rule is supposed to serve, and whether it actually serves the intended purpose.

    The pro-DP folks cited a few reasons for a DP, one of which was an issue of personal challenge. The argument was that without the sense of risk, any sense of reward or victory was diminished. Making the DP optional seems like it would satisfy that sense of risk... if that's all there were to it.

    The other big reason was to stem zerging activity and other "bad" play - which is a separate issue which can and, IMHO, should be handled through a non-punitive mechanic (e.g. mob reset/respawn on defeat, higher NPC out-of-combat regeneration, actual mission failure, etc.). Again, if preventing zerging were all there were to it.

    You can argue that a non-optional DP serves both purposes, but you'd have to explain why a DP would satisfy the second purpose significantly better than the options I mentioned.
    Classic competition like everywhere else. I understand that many players just want to relax in this game, but MMOs really shouldnt be like that - MMOs should have something more than singleplayer games have.
    But why competition? That's not the only possible multi-player interaction - nor, for many, is it even the most important. As I pointed out, there's also cooperation, learning tricks from others, and something I didn't mention, sharing an experience as a way to socialize.

    Besides, I suspect I'm missing something - how does a DP lend or enhance a sense of competition?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Shayde wrote: »
    I fully support it, as long as it is optional.

    I would fully support optional death in real life ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    poor rumbleskin, you shall be missed D=
    like popkrn....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Excorant wrote: »
    Hah crippling yourself really doesnt make you better than others, so I dont get why should I enable DP just for myself. Its no hypocrisy really - I want DP for all players and my reasons are buried inside this thread =)

    Delazure said it best a long time ago - "Pro-DP people: 'I want a death penalty!' (for everyone but me)"
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    You know, the more I hear it the more I like it: Two servers plz!!

    Server1: More difficult, DP, large expansive PvP zones
    Server2: Easymode, no DP

    Then those of us who actually want to play a game and not just fly around in a no-challenge sandbox like The Sims can do so with other like-minded people. Everyone is on an even playing field. You get the people more serious about teaming up and working together all on one server and people that are more content with soloing hang out with eachother in their own spot
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    personae wrote:
    Late reply, but you're missing the point. The DP had nothing to do with the success or failure of a raid/instance/whatever. Good teamwork does. When your raid wipes you have to start the encounter over again completely. The wipe could have happened because someone screwed up, or because your tactics weren't right, or whatever. The way you beat the encounter is by sharpening up your game.

    The DP has nothing at all to do with this. You either have good tactics and you succeed or you repeatedly fail. Its as simple as that. All the DP does is increase the frustration level, causing people to focus on that, rather than trying to beat the encounter. People don't ragequit an entire game because of a bad session. But they will ragequit raids, leaving the rest of the team in a lurch.

    I get what you're saying, and I think you're making my point for me. There is no failure in STO. No reason to improve your tactics, no reason to learn a different way of approaching a situation and no reason to play with your team. If you can't fail, why bother figuring out a strategy?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    gymtime wrote: »
    You know, the more I hear it the more I like it: Two servers plz!!

    Server1: More difficult, DP, large expansive PvP zones
    Server2: Easymode, no DP

    Then those of us who actually want to play a game and not just fly around in a no-challenge sandbox like The Sims can do so with other like-minded people. Everyone is on an even playing field. You get the people more serious about teaming up and working together all on one server and people that are more content with soloing hang out with eachother in their own spot

    It'll never happen, but It would please the highest percentage of people. Sounds like a good idea to me.
Sign In or Register to comment.