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  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    kanid wrote:
    NO its not ok but thats simply because QA errors in drugs result in ill effects or death in people. Buggy games do not (at least not directly). This is why drugs, especially new ones, are so much more expensive than say, video games. They involve a LOT of testing in multiple rounds thru multiple tests for many many millions of dollars. And yes those tests DO include beta tests on live subjects and then sometimes even tests after its past tests. Even then sometimes drugs with 'bugs' get through from time to time. When there are still 'bugs' in drugs after release, recalls occur and lawsuits potentially too .. but again thats because a 'bug' in these consumables results in potential risk of life to its users.

    Think of all the things that have bugs that are not life threatening. Movies have bugs (check out the goofs section on IMDB for a given movie), as I said books have em, artwork does sometimes, music sometimes. Simply put bugs happen in any creative medium. Sometimes they are worse than others. Sometimes it takes the consumer to notice it to fix it. That is a bug report.

    There are hundreds of drugs that were found to have "bugs" after they went to market.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    Anyways here is a good analogy to those who think this QA practice is ok.

    Biotech companies who distribute injectable drugs for treatment of diseases, do you think its ok for thier QA dept to lack oversight in inspecting those said vials for particulates and just have the attitude well when the patient develops an embolysm due to a glass particulate we missed then they can just report it and we'll fix it then. I dont doubt its happened but is it ok and lets just say oh well?

    Actually...
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    You have yet to answer my question, and i am not trying to flame, but tbh you were the first to cast an insult so hypocrytical much?


    If you think about it I did answer your question. No, I didn't insult you I was being condescending and you took it as an insult. Oh, and for the record it has been pointed out to me that I have flamed other people and been flamed as well so me telling you that you can do better is not hypocritical.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    kanid wrote:
    NO its not ok but thats simply because QA errors in drugs result in ill effects or death in people. Buggy games do not (at least not directly). This is why drugs, especially new ones, are so much more expensive than say, video games. They involve a LOT of testing in multiple rounds thru multiple tests for many many millions of dollars. And yes those tests DO include beta tests on live subjects and then sometimes even tests after its past tests. Even then sometimes drugs with 'bugs' get through from time to time. When there are still 'bugs' in drugs after release, recalls occur and lawsuits potentially too .. but again thats because a 'bug' in these consumables results in potential risk of life to its users.

    Think of all the things that have bugs that are not life threatening. Movies have bugs (check out the goofs section on IMDB for a given movie), as I said books have em, artwork does sometimes, music sometimes. Simply put bugs happen in any creative medium. Sometimes they are worse than others. Sometimes it takes the consumer to notice it to fix it. That is a bug report.

    Actually my plumber analogy was better, if you hired a plumber or a contractor and they did poor work on your house and your plumbing had leaks would you just be oh well he tried and live with the leaks? Or would you call him up and say get back over here and fix it, would you think its ok if the majority was ok with shoddy work like that? Would you think it ok if he charged you more to fix a leak he should not of let happen in the first place?

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~ Phoxe
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    NinetyNine wrote:
    This thread started out with an innocent question, but is now a toasty brown.

    We are still in celsius territory, when we move the Kelvin it really get to burning.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    There are hundreds of drugs that were found to have "bugs" after they went to market.

    Exactly my point, and those biotech companies spend a LOT more money and time on QA than STO could ever dream of and bugs still happen.

    Not that bugs are ok. They arent. They should be fixed, especially in a medium that is constantly changing like software. But we have to remember that software is made as a product to be sold. Someone is paying for the development and that someone eventually will run out of money, and wont invest more money than they expect theyd get back in a reasonable amount of time. So a balance has to be made that may sacrifice some quality for a timely release and a return on some revenue. Otherwise theyd simply run out of development money and never ship. Just look at Duke Nukem Forever.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    If you think about it I did answer your question. No, I didn't insult you I was being condescending and you took it as an insult. Oh, and for the record it has been pointed out to me that I have flamed other people and been flamed as well so me telling you that you can do better is not hypocritical.

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~ Phoxe
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Tcsola2003 wrote:

    I am suspicious of a link that links to a digg site's link of a youtube video...

    Also, in all fairness, aspirin bottles don't state that they are not filled with AIDS, so it's not deceptive marketing.


    Edit: In case it's lost on anyone out there, filling a bottle with a syndrome is technically impossible. It's like contaminating aspirin with hungry.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    kanid wrote:
    Exactly my point, and those biotech companies spend a LOT more money and time on QA than STO could ever dream of and bugs still happen.

    Not that bugs are ok. They arent. They should be fixed, especially in a medium that is constantly changing like software. But we have to remember that software is made as a product to be sold. Someone is paying for the development and that someone eventually will run out of money, and wont invest more money than they expect theyd get back in a reasonable amount of time. So a balance has to be made that may sacrifice some quality for a timely release and a return on some revenue. Otherwise theyd simply run out of development money and never ship. Just look at Duke Nukem Forever.


    DNF is a myth. A mythical creature in which to entice gamers. It lives in the vapor beyond the internet. Be aware of false games. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    kanid wrote:
    Exactly my point, and those biotech companies spend a LOT more money and time on QA than STO could ever dream of and bugs still happen.

    Not that bugs are ok. They arent. They should be fixed, especially in a medium that is constantly changing like software. But we have to remember that software is made as a product to be sold. Someone is paying for the development and that someone eventually will run out of money, and wont invest more money than they expect theyd get back in a reasonable amount of time. So a balance has to be made that may sacrifice some quality for a timely release and a return on some revenue. Otherwise theyd simply run out of development money and never ship. Just look at Duke Nukem Forever.

    No if thier bugs get through it could kill someone and the FDA would shut them down or fine . I know thats alot diff than games but hey there are consumer protection for some things why not games?

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~ Phoxe
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    Actually my plumber analogy was better, if you hired a plumber or a contractor and they did poor work on your house and your plumbing had leaks would you just be oh well he tried and live with the leaks? Or would you call him up and say get your TRIBBLE back over here and fix it, would you think its ok if the majority was ok with shoddy work like that? Would you think it ok if he charged you more to fix a leak he should not of let happen in the first place?

    But again you are describing something that can effect a persons health and has already strict rules and regulations in place, plus is based on centuries of established systems of design to prevent such amateurish flaws.

    In your example if the error was the plumbers fault he should be required to fix it for you at no additional cost, but I dont expect the plumber to know psychicly that he missed something. What you describe as calling him to come back and fix it is the real world equivalent of a bug report. Cryptic is not asking you to pay more for them to fix bugs. The toughest nut in this discussion is the payment models are different. Plumbers give you a quote and pay once.

    You could compare it to cable maybe more reliably. If you get cable hooked up and one channel never comes in quite right, you should expect them to fix it at no additional cost, but you still have to pay the subscription charge for all the other channels that do work and you likely wouldnt get a credit for just one channel being broken.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    So, I know it has something to do with adulterating pharmaceuticals and arguing, but how exactly do we become a dev again?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    kanid wrote:

    You could compare it to cable maybe more reliably. If you get cable hooked up and one channel never comes in quite right, you should expect them to fix it at no additional cost, but you still have to pay the subscription charge for all the other channels that do work and you likely wouldnt get a credit for just one channel being broken.

    Actually they do give credits for stuff like that and so do some MMO's, obviously not this one.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    Telling someone they have lower intellect than you thought is an insult sorry bud....and no you didnt answer my last Q cause you cant obviously. And i said you were hypocritical because you said i was flaming but yet you yourself were flaming me so there ya go genius.

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~ Phoxe
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Anyways i hope this discussion has made some of your lunchtimes or breaks or slacking off at work pass faster :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    I want to be a senior member
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    Actually my plumber analogy was better, if you hired a plumber or a contractor and they did poor work on your house and your plumbing had leaks would you just be oh well he tried and live with the leaks? Or would you call him up and say get your TRIBBLE back over here and fix it, would you think its ok if the majority was ok with shoddy work like that? Would you think it ok if he charged you more to fix a leak he should not of let happen in the first place?

    Certainly a better analogy. And for the record, no, I wouldn't expect you to just live with the problems. I'd expect you to report them so that the plumber could fix them.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    NinetyNine wrote:
    So, I know it has something to do with adulterating pharmaceuticals and arguing, but how exactly do we become a dev again?


    You need a chemistry set, a patent attorney and lots of money. Or, are you meaning for games?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    You need a chemistry set, a patent attorney and lots of money. Or, are you meaning for games?

    I have no idea. I read the first page, I read the last page, and BAM confusion.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    Did I call you a name? Did I compare you with anything? Nope. Did I imply something? Yes... Did you take that as an insult? I guess so but doesn't mean I gave you one, you only took it that way.

    Actually, I didn't say you were flaming, I pointed out you are a bad flamer. So if I flame you for being a bad flamer that isn't being hypocritical because obviously I was more successful than you were.

    As far as the question goes, I didn't answer directly because I thought you would have bought the clue to your own answer. Indeed I was mistaken.

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~ Phoxe
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    NinetyNine wrote:
    I have no idea. I read the first page, I read the last page, and BAM confusion.

    I hate it when that happens. Do you have any pharmaceuticals you can take to help?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    I am sorry but saying hey i apologize if i thought your intellect is higher is not implying it its coming right out and saying it....wtf are you serious? Well your wrong but I am not trying to flame but have a discussion, you seem to be the only one here who wants to insult people and flame.


    And this the part where I say... Whatever. I will leave you with this however.

    imply - express or state indirectly


    Have a nice day. :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    AtomicFB wrote:
    And this the part where I say... Whatever. I will leave you with this however.

    imply - express or state indirectly


    Have a nice day. :)

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~ Phoxe
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    I dont think i ever said that i personally dont report bugs, what i said is that its not ok for the company to release software that should have been less buggy and expect the player base to report them all.

    It seemed implicit to me in your previous statements. And no, what you said was that it is not okay for a company to expect its players to report bugs to them. Specifically you posted "Ok I am sorry but there is just something fundamentally wrong with expecting players who are now paying for the game to bug test it". I pointed out that they don't expect you to, nor do they require you to. They just provide a way for you to report the bugs to them. I don't understand how that is a bad thing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    Indirectly is not what you did when you insulted my int directly sorry bud, and you can leave anytime thats ok, best thing you said this whole thread.

    I'd just like to point out that referring to your own intelligence as "int" does not impress chicks any more telling them you've got +5 dex in bed.

    I speak from experience.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    No if thier bugs get through it could kill someone and the FDA would shut them down or fine the hell out of them. I know thats alot diff than games but hey there are consumer protection for some things why not games?

    I disagree. The FDA typically has them take the drug off the market and recall all existing supplies unless they believe that the company is guilty of gross negligence and were previously aware of the issues. Drugs are withdrawn from the market all the time. See here

    Again though they only do that because bad drugs can kill people.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    Indirectly is not what you did when you insulted my int directly sorry bud, and you can leave anytime thats ok, best thing you said this whole thread.

    IF you feel that strongly about it you can always report me. I don't want to inhibit your freedom of expression.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    Nastromo wrote: »
    Seriously wtf are you talking about....expectin paying players to find and report bugs that the QA dept shouldve found is not ok. As far as the bridge analogy goes that was a bad one.

    Honestly, you need to stop. You simply do not know what you are talking about. Games systems like MMOs are extraordinarily complex, and no amount of in-house testing will ever catch all the bugs. For instance, if you employed a hundred testers, and they all tested the same instance simultaneously, it could come out just fine. However, when the game goes live, and the 150th person enters that instance, suddenly a bug shows up. In fact, it may not even have to do with the 150th person entering that instance. It could be related to someone entering another instance that triggered an unexpected change in a variable they both share. And that does not even take into account that there is simply no way for any game company to replicate the tens or hundreds of thousands of computers simultaneously connecting to the game, all with their own unique configurations of driver versions, operating system differences and patch levels, services and other memory resident utilities running, and so on. It is simply impossible for any Q&A department to do enough testing to account for all that.

    So, please, stop. MMOs are extraordinarily complex systems, and no amount of in-house testing will catch all the bugs, which means it is up to the player base to help make the game better. You can take the elitist approach and presume you are too good to report bugs because "they should have caught them," or you can be a part of the solution and report bugs you find. That is, yes, they will accept help from people like the OP if they are willing to do it, but they don't expect everyone to go out and find bugs. They simply, and reasonably, ask that you report bugs you do encounter during normal gameplay. It is part of the MMO experience and likely will be well into the 25th Century. After all, even Star Trek characters have to deal with software glitches.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    NinetyNine wrote:
    I'd just like to point out that referring to your own intelligence as "int" does not impress chicks any more telling them you've got +5 dex in bed.

    I speak from experience.


    Telling them you have super powers doesn't work either.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited March 2010
    NinetyNine wrote:
    I'd just like to point out that referring to your own intelligence as "int" does not impress chicks any more telling them you've got +5 dex in bed.

    I speak from experience.

    This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~ Phoxe

    Oh and it depends on how down to earth the chick is.
This discussion has been closed.