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Making PvP Worth While...
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PvP that is worth while.... Take a clue from Dark Age of Camelot....
(Unfortunately this game is on its death bed, because we lost 2/3rds of our Player base to WoW.)
An integral part of Dark Age of Camelot is the concept of Realms. Realms are entirely independent worlds that exist within the larger world of the game. There are three distinct Realms in Dark Age of Camelot - Albion, Midgard and Hibernia. Think of these three Realms as foreign countries with well defended borders and different languages.
The primary principle is that each of the Realms is at war with each of the others, and that they cannot even communicate with each other. Realm vs. Realm combat (known as RvR) occurs in special level-specific battlegrounds and in the New Frontiers.
There are battlegrounds available for characters level 1 to 49. Battlegrounds are smaller RvR areas and entry into each is limited by level. The first battleground is level 1-4, the next is 5-9, the third is 10-14, and so forth, ending at level 49. The battlegrounds are a good place to learn now to use your RvR skills before venturing out into the main RvR zones in New Frontiers.
The New Frontiers are recommended for characters that have attained a fairly high level and have mastered the skills of their class. Generally, to be effective at RvR, it is good to join a group of other characters with balanced skills. There are many specific strategies for fighting in RvR, as opposed to fighting monsters found throughout the game.
There are specific goals that come with RvR. One is to gain notoriety within your own Realm. This can gain you special points called Realm Skill Points. You can use Realm Skill Points to train your character in special skills that cannot be trained in any other way.
There are also special castles, or keeps, and controlling the majority of those keeps can bring benefits to the entire Realm. Certain keeps contain magical items called Relics. If a Relic is controlled by its home realm it will be stored in a Relic keep beyond a special Mile Gate. If member of an opposing realm can steal an enemy Relic, they can then install that Relic in one of their standard keeps. If a Realm controls both their own relics and an enemy Relic of the same type, all members of that realm will gain benefits from the Relic Magic. Warfare over the Relics and various castles in the frontier areas is a primary aspect of RvR.
Here is an example....
Each Keep, has 4 Towers... And in order to gain access to the enemy Realm's Relic keep... You have to Capture all of a Keep's 4 towers and the keep itself... do this with 4 of their Keeps... and it unlocks 1 of the enemies Relic Keeps.
Why not do the same thing with STO???? Have battle areas or "Skirmish areas" until the End Game, where everyone is a Senior Captain or Admiral, can go out and fight for their faction. Have 3-4 planets in a solar system.... You have to capture each planet in the solar system to gain control of that system.... Planets can be secured and held on the Ground.... by capturing strategic areas of interest... simultaneously while our ships are flying around in space, making sure there aren't any Klingon ships coming up to transport their people down on the ground so on and so forth....
Interlace the space/ground combat system.
And if you capture and hold a solar system, it gives the Federation or Klingon factions a bonus... like, While you control this system, you will have +100 to shields at all times... or you will have +20 to all Beam arrays...
Make it worth our while To go PvP... not just some useless Instance where I you walk away going "ok that was fun and pointless... back to the grind"
I want to be able to lead on the ground... Capture and hold a planet, and to not let go of that planet.. I want to actually feel like I'm in a War with the Klingons...
If you can't tell, I'm an Avid Fan of PvP... To me, PVP in an MMO will make or break the game. There is only so many times I can go 'visit' DS9 before the game loses my intrest, no matter how much I love Star Trek...
I want to feel like I'm actually fighting for something... like the whole Level Grind was worth it....
Sorry that this is such a long winded post.
(Unfortunately this game is on its death bed, because we lost 2/3rds of our Player base to WoW.)
An integral part of Dark Age of Camelot is the concept of Realms. Realms are entirely independent worlds that exist within the larger world of the game. There are three distinct Realms in Dark Age of Camelot - Albion, Midgard and Hibernia. Think of these three Realms as foreign countries with well defended borders and different languages.
The primary principle is that each of the Realms is at war with each of the others, and that they cannot even communicate with each other. Realm vs. Realm combat (known as RvR) occurs in special level-specific battlegrounds and in the New Frontiers.
There are battlegrounds available for characters level 1 to 49. Battlegrounds are smaller RvR areas and entry into each is limited by level. The first battleground is level 1-4, the next is 5-9, the third is 10-14, and so forth, ending at level 49. The battlegrounds are a good place to learn now to use your RvR skills before venturing out into the main RvR zones in New Frontiers.
The New Frontiers are recommended for characters that have attained a fairly high level and have mastered the skills of their class. Generally, to be effective at RvR, it is good to join a group of other characters with balanced skills. There are many specific strategies for fighting in RvR, as opposed to fighting monsters found throughout the game.
There are specific goals that come with RvR. One is to gain notoriety within your own Realm. This can gain you special points called Realm Skill Points. You can use Realm Skill Points to train your character in special skills that cannot be trained in any other way.
There are also special castles, or keeps, and controlling the majority of those keeps can bring benefits to the entire Realm. Certain keeps contain magical items called Relics. If a Relic is controlled by its home realm it will be stored in a Relic keep beyond a special Mile Gate. If member of an opposing realm can steal an enemy Relic, they can then install that Relic in one of their standard keeps. If a Realm controls both their own relics and an enemy Relic of the same type, all members of that realm will gain benefits from the Relic Magic. Warfare over the Relics and various castles in the frontier areas is a primary aspect of RvR.
Here is an example....
Each Keep, has 4 Towers... And in order to gain access to the enemy Realm's Relic keep... You have to Capture all of a Keep's 4 towers and the keep itself... do this with 4 of their Keeps... and it unlocks 1 of the enemies Relic Keeps.
Why not do the same thing with STO???? Have battle areas or "Skirmish areas" until the End Game, where everyone is a Senior Captain or Admiral, can go out and fight for their faction. Have 3-4 planets in a solar system.... You have to capture each planet in the solar system to gain control of that system.... Planets can be secured and held on the Ground.... by capturing strategic areas of interest... simultaneously while our ships are flying around in space, making sure there aren't any Klingon ships coming up to transport their people down on the ground so on and so forth....
Interlace the space/ground combat system.
And if you capture and hold a solar system, it gives the Federation or Klingon factions a bonus... like, While you control this system, you will have +100 to shields at all times... or you will have +20 to all Beam arrays...
Make it worth our while To go PvP... not just some useless Instance where I you walk away going "ok that was fun and pointless... back to the grind"
I want to be able to lead on the ground... Capture and hold a planet, and to not let go of that planet.. I want to actually feel like I'm in a War with the Klingons...
If you can't tell, I'm an Avid Fan of PvP... To me, PVP in an MMO will make or break the game. There is only so many times I can go 'visit' DS9 before the game loses my intrest, no matter how much I love Star Trek...
I want to feel like I'm actually fighting for something... like the whole Level Grind was worth it....
Sorry that this is such a long winded post.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Cryptic is just not that large of a company.
Those useless instances are a grind...
For Feds... there is nothing "alluring" for PvP right now. Feds come out with nothing to show for it, except a bit more XP.
And what was written was more of an 'End Game' scenario... That typically the higher level players will engage in combat that will earn bonuses for their factions...
It should be open to all levels, but if you show up as an ensign, you'll get 1 shotted.
Now, unless Cryptic are staffed by some truly vacuous gems of humanity, odds are they have reviewed a lot of these ideas early into their development. But for some reason, they chose these essentially mindless arena thingies for PvP. Why? Only Cryptic knows and they ain't talkin'.
If somehow the game keeps high population numbers for a year or so, you'll see people being added to development enough to maybe make some changes in an expansion, but that's about the earliest you'll even get an indication something will happen.
Unfortunately, I don't know if that's the business model Cryptic has. It seems they have a "make it and then make another MMO" mentality. It may be good for their pocket book short term and maybe that's all they want.
Still, a Star Trek MMO, that's pretty much like like SWG. You mess that one up and you can look forward to changing careers.
Everyone out there who hasn't played this map should and let's see how many return to it once they realize they get no credits or medal or daily recognition . Last night I played that map five times with 9 other BoK members and the population queue steadily degenrated once people realized they weren't getting credit for loses . Incidently we played a load of 10 v 10 the last 2 nights at Admiral level , and quite a few times played incomplete Fed teams . Feds need to step up and stop whining .
Hell, I STILL don't know how you're supposed to tell if a point is fully capped in salvage other than to wander away from it and see if it goes white instantly. No bars, no indicators, just a slight variation in the graphics on the floating symbol that is too minute for me to be able to tell reliably.
1. I kill you. well destroy your ship. this is worthwhile
1. I kill you again err #2 i mean I kill you again this is worthwhile
3. I run away from you and cause you to get killed by someone else, this is worthwhile
4. End of match happens I get SP BOSP AND CASH this is worth while.
My Doctor said its good for my metabolitic disorder... .:( THIS IS WORTHWHILE HE SAID
AION, what happens few people power level up and Camp everything, discourages carebears casuals and other late comers to the game.
PvP highest threshold of evolution is and sadly was implemened by the Mix of WOW/WAR and this is what a Majority of people want, PVP in a sandbox, to come and go as they please and to be rewarded just as much as the next fellow.
Everyone Zones into a massive PVP area, you can be ganked in this space at any time.... (the risk you take from entering a PVP zone)
And in that zone, there are objectives, that give your faction benefits.... Take and hold "X" number of systems to give +100 to your factions Shields, or +20 to all beam arrays.... etc etc...
Give me a reason to PVP..... I'm PVP heavy. When I hit Admiral (Mid Captain now), what is there to look forward to? What is the result of the work? Nothing.
At least Dark Age of Camelot had it right.... when you hit Lvl 50, you could enter the "Frontier" and fight for your realm....and earn benefits for your realm.
All these instanced PVP maps STO has, are pointless.... You can argue till your blue in the face about well its PVP step up blah blah.... There is no goal.... Its a glorified Deathmatch...
There are no tangible benefits to be gained....
IF the Klingons and the Feds are at war.... certainly there should be benefits gained from it.... instead of zoning into a map, fighting for a bit, then getting out..... no worse for wear.
The PVP Sytem that STO has is mindless.... sure there are different types of maps, scenarios... but they still don't mean anything. Make PVP mean something....
If they made it like DAoC, that would be a vast improvement and a marvel. Can/will they do it though?
I truely hope they do.... because I look forward to PVP.... I would enjoy fighting Klingons in a 'mental war between the players' .... Who's tactics will win out etc etc...
As of right now, to me there is nothing appealing about the PVP system... Its a useless instance (for feds anyway)
I really hope Cryptic puts the effort in to make this game worth while and long lasting. I really hope this doesn't turn into another WoW gear grind.
Fallacious logic is fallacious. Like, seriously bad.
Do you want to know why enemy mine isn't the most popular map? Because PVP is the sole source of advancement for fully half the combatant forces, and enemy mine is one of the longest games to resolve. It slows down advancement ergo nobody is going to be playing it. Also, it does NOT in any way, shape, or form provide "meaning" that you are failing to address. Winning or losing that instance has no effect outside of the instance, so even if some of the klingons were willing to gimp their advancement speed to "fight the good fight" for their faction, enemy mine does NOT provide the opportunity.
This is why people are proposing "meaningful" pvp (which enemy mine is certainly not) take place at the end game, there is no advancement to worry about stalling.
You proved my point, you're more interested in leveling . If you want meaning , play the map . You win you advance , you lose you get nothing . It's simple . People want meaning and challenge this is it , in it's simplest form . That is why the map is not populated , and the fact that it doesn't count toward dailies. As for taking longer to complete you are absolutely incorrect and obviously don't know , nor understand how the map works.
You want some grandiose mechanism that covers your failing and will also allow you to level. What I'm saying is here you have a challenge , and you proceed to call my logic fallacious ? It is the hypocriscy of those that want some winner/loser consequences that don't step up and fight on this map. In the end it's a game , no more significant than a chess match , to the world. Your total sum of victories according to any mechanism would in effect approximately of X / (the enitire server population) , basically statisically insignificant.You're statement is a prefect example of that hypocracy and your statement speaks for itself.
I think you're missing the point of "End Game" PvP.... I don't care how you try and spin it, an instance is an instance.... it doesn't do anything.
Sure You can 'capture' things INSIDE the instance, but once you leave... you're not any worse off then you were when you entered.
You don't fight for anything. Hence the point of the entire post to begin with.... making PvP WORTH WHILE..
Making it mean something when you loose your 'instanced' PVP zone....
What would happen if you went into your little PvP area, and your teammates were garbage..... and you lost.
What happens if the Federation (or Klingons depending on your faction) benefited from your loss? What if they (every player) got an extra +100 or +200 to shields because you lost your match...
What would that do to your mindset? Would you keep PvPing in order to even the odds, and take that benefit away?
If you're really interested, I think you should re-read my original post... Because I believe this is something Cryptic SERIOUSLY needs to look at...
I honestly think Cryptic needs to take notes from Mythic, with the way they did PVP in Dark Age of Camelot.
I still don't think they have the time/resources/desire to make any serious changes like this though, it's pretty much a lost cause.
I feel your pain, I'm quickly coming up on your same scenario... as far as "done it all".... I've said it to my friends.... There is only so many times I can fly to DS9 or all the "Cannon" locations before I'm like, "ok this sucks... I'm bored."
And I'm beginning to agree with you, as far as the PVP aspect.... Though I hope we're both wrong.