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Nerf the Jellyfish console
fleetcaptain5
Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
Reasons should be known by now.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Funnily enough, I was thinking the same thing earlier too. Either that, or make all other 'fortress' style consoles the same. It's odd that the Jellyfish can but the new Typhon and the T6 Olympic can't keep their consoles active.
But yeah....Cryptic made AFK'ing perfectly 'acceptable' with the Jellyfish.
It's beyond silly how they made it acceptable, yet we still have penalties for it. Makes no sense whatsoever.
I just left a Swarm mission because the entire map was filled with two of those bubbles.
I'm not going to allow myself get irritated and waste fifteen minutes of my precious gaming time by looking at other players basically shouting 'look, I'm not doing sh*t'. It's obnoxious and beyond annoying.
I'm flat out refusing to participate in any content where I encounter this nonsense from now on.
Just to play devil's advocate, not all player that use the Jellyfish go afk. Just because they can hardly move doesn't mean the player isn't activating powers and keeping an eye on their surroundings.
For example, with the current event I like to play the Juppiter Iratus mission and I like to fly the Jellyfish. During the Portal stage I bubble up by the station and keep the data hackers away. The whole time I'm checking the area and activating Tractor Beam Repulsors, Grav Wells, Pahvan Interstellar Bombardment, and other skills. Once the stage is over, I drop the bubble and help take out Tilly's fleet.
So yes, some folks abuse the console and go afk during TFO's. But not everyone.
The frustration you feel with the Jellyfish is the same some players feels when a superfast escort zips around the map nuking everything in sight.
Ah, but you should see how badly it is abused on console. Console has auto-conditional-execute on most abilities. Jellyfish AFK is rife.
I play on Xbox as well and play the Jelly the same way I posted above. With the current event going there I play Defense of Starbase one. I set up where I can heal all the fleeing ships and keep an eye out. Also while many skills can auto-exec not all can.
I've also noticed that the dev's might be trying to correct the Jelly AFK'ing somewhat in newer content. For example, the Battle of Wolf 359 TFO disables the console during the mission. (PC and Console)
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Ran a Jupiter myself today and had a Jellyfish. They were parked ontop of Jupiter Station, so that took care of any Data Thief ships. Unfortunately the issue we had was an AFK Akira that flew like 10-15 km above Jupiter Station and just sat there the whole mission, leaving the rest of us to bounce between the holo sats.
I admit the Typhon's Fortress Mode might be a bit more useful if it was a toggle like the Jellyfish, but it is what it is, and its locked to that particular ship.
What I usually see is jelly fish users (JFU's) just parking it and calling it a day. After they park it they can now make grandious claims like "I'm defending the area".
Having test driven a jelly (only once) it was pretty obvious that it handled like an overloaded barge so I can understand why they prefer to park. Who would want to pilot something like that?
The overly large diameter of their jelly field ensures that they're occupying an entire portion of the map. When you get more than one jelly well now most of the map is GONE and an otherwise humdrum event TFO now becomes even MORE tedious.
Ugh.
They think that they're playing the game but I don't think they really are. All they did was turn their jelly field on. One. single. console.
Correct positioning isn't an issue with the gigantic diameter of the jelly field.
Building something like this right is also not much of an issue as all that's really needed is ONE console.
What a beast.
Terms like "area denial" and "defense operations" sound like terminolgy a bureaucrat would think up. The reason I say this is because these terms don't really mean anything.
Meanwhile it's impossible to say whether or not the JFU has gone to the kitchen to make a sandwich.
My personal recommendation: disable the jelly console for all multiplayer content in order to encourage players to actually.. play the game
While playing the Swarm tonight somebody had Ba'ul sentry mode going. It looked really cool and I found it unobtrusive compared to the jelly field.
I am surprised how few people recognize the "Bastion" tank type; it makes me wonder if a lot of the STO players are from an action game background instead of an MMO gaming background (STO is a bit odd in that it does not use the DPS/Tank/Healer trinity most MMOs use and there is so little content geared to highly organized groups).
That really shows when people make weird suggestions like disabling the ship's group content features when doing group content. The bubble is meant give the more glass cannon of the DPS types a place to shelter and heal up between sorties out to attack things, as well as make it difficult for the enemy to use the area the tank is staked down in.
As for the diameter of the field, it has to be that big to function in that role at all. For instance, it would not be very protective if enemy ships could easily get in range to pour massed fire into a tightly packed group of ships, in fact science ship players do that exact same thing to the enemy with gravity wells to make killing them so much easier with all the cascading core breaches. So an aura of 3K or 5K would be counterproductive. Likewise, a limited time aura would be useless since it would not be there when the glass cannons need a place out of the storm of enemy fire.
Yes. That's one of the ideas that would work.
No other console has permanent uptime, one that can be seriously abused like the one from the jellyfish certainly shouldn't have it. Although I think 60 seconds is still a bit too much, but this line of thinking is the right one, I think.
Alternatively, they could either
- reduce the bubble's radius
- remove the healing and +damage resistance so that players will either have to be around continuously to use heals or risk getting destroyed
- reduce the damage
I think that limiting its uptime would solve most of the issues already, though.
Problem is, people aren't using it tactically because the console doesn't actually force you to think tactically/strategically.
You click that button once, it'll basically be the only thing you're going to have to do in the entire mission. With the exception of a handful of missions like Breach, you can actually just pop it once and call it a day. Most maps are simply so small and/or the missions so static that there's no need to do anything besides hitting that button once.
And that's precisely what people are doing, have been doing and will be doing since it has been released this way and for as long as it won't be changed to be brought more in line with literally all other stuff in the game (i.e., limited up-time, to mention one thing).
Honestly I can understand the Akira captain, cause why wouldn't you go AFK if other players are allowed to do so? Personally I would just leave, but that's a matter of preferences I guess.
We can debate all day whether or not they are using other stuff while being in bubble-mode. You can say that you have seen lots of players that do use other abilities, I can (and will) say that, in my experience, very few players flying the ship actually do something beyond just sitting there and clicking one console ability, once for mostly the entire duration of the mission.
It doesn't really matter who's the more accurate observer though. Fact is, the console can be abused. And to say that it's not being abused at all, would be disingeneous. So we know there is a problem, we just hold different opinions regarding how big the problem is.
Limiting the console's uptime would solve the problem - whose existence we, hopefully, neither deny - while still allowing players to use it in a similar vein that all other consoles work. That is, in a way that allows them to use it tactically, as something that you have to plan for and can't use 100% of the time - thereby no longer allowing anyone to just walk away and come back at the end of the mission.
Players who use the console in a non-exploitative way, shouldn't have any issues with this change as it doesn't negatively affect them. Because to them, the console is just a thing they use on top of the rest of their ship anyway, right? So what's the problem then?
The only players negatively affected by such a change, would be the AFK'ers, the people who don't actually use the rest of their ship and basically do nothing for 10-15 minutes or however long the mission lasts.
And that's precisely the point.
So... basically remove the console entirely because this is an MMO. ANYTHING other than specificly marked story missions can be multiplayer content. Essentially... removing the ONE thing that this ship is not only good at, but makes it unique compared to every other ship in game, turning it from a disguised cosmozoan to a generic flying saucer with NOTHING unique about it whatsoever.
Jupiter is big enough for it. The Jellyfish was only able to cover the area around Jupiter Station only. It didn't reach the holoemitters. You make the Jellyfish sound like some kind of godship when she isn't. She's got a niche role that happens to be in the spotlight right now. And she CAN be overwhelmed even in Jellyfish mode and destroyed. Its more common in Advanced than Normal, but it can happen.
As for the Akira... we could have USED its help with the holoemitters. IMO the ideal setup would be to have 1 player per holoemitter with one floating to assist where needed. But instead we had to scramble to cover each other when a holoemitter got hit hard because we were literally 4 manning it instead of having a full team.
Again, a PROPERLY positioned Jellyfish is a benefit to the team as it allows the team to focus on other areas. Just because some players don't use it properly doesn't mean all players won't.
Its only the size of standard weapons range. I think the Counter Command Shield Bubble is about the same size. Its technically no different than a cruiser parking and going FAW. Same radius.
Actually they DO mean something. Defense Operations, IE protecting something, is a thing. We have several. Area Denial means turning an area into a killzone, preventing the enemy from occupying it. We have many powers that can do that, like Gravity Well and the Approaching Agony field. The Jellyfish just happens to be excellent at it, but it is a trade off.
Again the Jellyfish is not a godship that pushes AFK. You gotta think about when and where to use it. Defense missions are its specialty. Mobile battles, its just a generic flying saucer cruiser with nothing special about it. If enemies are beefy enough to survive Jellyfish Mode, the Jellyfish CAN be overwhelmed and destroyed quite easily because its defense value is rather low do to being all but immoblilized by its own special mode. Hell a Jellyfish takes enough damage during Jellyfish Mode, it will automatically revert. It is a Niche purpose ship that happens to have its Niche in the spotlight right now.
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I'm fine with those qualifications, although 'not big of an issue' is subjective.
Their fun is wrong, cause AFK'ing isn't allowed. They're also not playing, so it's not really a matter of playing right or wrong.
The console is bound to one single type of ship, it only has a 10 Km range, it immobilizes the user and has a significant cooldown.
What else do you want?
I would be glad to accept a 25-30% decrease in damage output if one could stay mobile.
Right now i have to use a few additional consoles to move around.
It may sound easy to play jelly lazy boat, but it takes considerable skill to position correctly.
I hate how your playing this GAME. You must stop. Take a hike with that.
If your ok with this....
Then your ok with DPS shamming.
Then your ok with yelling at players for flying slow ships.
Then your ok with yelling at players using squishy little ships that end up dying and needing to respawn.
Then your ok with yelling at players for using visually annoying skills and consoles you dislike.
Then you are ok with yelling at a carrier pilot for creating too much spam.
Your not entitled to be upset about how anyone else plays the game. The jelly is what it is. Personally I'm fine with them adding interesting ships and items to the game that create varied play styles.
Can you AFK in a Jelly... sort of not really. I guess you can in low level content... but you can essentially AFK in many different builds in normal mode content. I mean is a jelly any different from a fat boat cruiser parking and using FAW? Or a sci ship dropping a gravity well every 45s and essentially AFKing as well? Leave the Jelly alone... at this point if someone wants to AFK the event ques for marks or something its better to just take a carrier and not deal with people reporting you or crying on the forums.
Of course it's subjective. That's why I said, "personally." 😊
Their fun is not wrong. THAT has been a hallmark of this game for as long as I can remember. Are there some "how to play the game" rules written somewhere that I'm missing? No? No. They are not playing IN YOUR OPINION. They are not playing the way YOU play. And that's ok. Just because YOU don't like it, or don't agree with it, doesn't mean it's invalid.
What's the real complaint here? Are you ending up in a bunch of failing TFOs, because someone parked and sparkled a Jellyfish?
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Exactly. Positioning is key for effective Jellyfish Mode use.
And I can't think of any map where one Jellyfish just dominates the entire map. Among the current event TFOs...
Also you can still team buff in Jellyfish Mode as well. Its not the "I win" button everyone is making it out to be.
I've seen it used in TFO's (usually no more than one) but I tend not to notice if they might be AFK'ing or not. I'm more focussed on what I'm doing instead. Even if they are eating their dinner instead of actively taking part, I can't say I see it as a problem. They're not stopping me from playing the way I want to, nor is it preventing the TFO from completing.
And in general, I like the idea of having unique ships/consoles that can perform certain tasks better and go about it in a different way to the average ship. I lean towards not nerfing it to make it work in the same way other consoles.
As is right now the console allows you to transform and sit in an area letting the console do all the work for you. It gives you a massive damage field that on its own can hold entire areas down in certain missions, and keep you alive on top of it with no interaction required from the player. To a degree this isn't much different than some "park & sparkle" builds running a macro to execute their damage powers. However at least with those you have multiple abilities going off and you still require some interaction to keep the player alive. If for example you get 4 Jellyfish in something like Tzenkethi Front, if they wanted to, 4 of them could park near the starbase and leave the last guy to fend for himself and drag the mission on. Even if that doesn't happen it's still a major possibility.
In this instance the console is rapidly becoming THE answer in alot of instances which in my book promotes unhealthy gameplay. Plasma Exploders and Plasmonic Leech were nerfed for far less because they became THE answer on most builds prior to season 13. There for awhile if you didn't have Plasma Exploders and Leech you were considered to be doing it wrong. An example I pointed to elsewhere was like when the Stoneforge decks were a thing in MTG. For those unfamiliar with MTG standard allows you to use the 6 most recent sets of cards and a core set, so technically 7 sets total. Then every so often they rotate certain sets out and bring new ones in and rarely do they ever ban in standard. When Stoneforge came into being it was an artifact style deck that became wildly popular. In some instances you could go to a qualifier tournament that had 150 people, and 140 of those decks would be Stoneforge. Thus Wizards stepped in and banned Stoneforge from standard because it was way too strong. This wasn't an issue in other formats as there were more ways to counter it, but not in standard. Point being the Jellyfish console in its current form is rapidly becoming THE answer in far too many cases. If this was like the Dyson ships that can transform from sci mode to tac but still require input from the player, this would be a different discussion in my book. However this is one console that's doing all your damage for you, and keeping you alive, which is quite literally an autopilot button of sorts. If folks are going to camp out with that console they may as well just have a bot play for them in my book.
I know folks don't like to hear this, but there are times when people need to be told they're not where they think they are damage wise and to step it up because they're not doing enough. If a TFO requires everyone on the team do a minimum of 25k to succeed and you have 4 of the people in there doing the 25k each, but the last guy is only doing 2k, sorry but that last guy doing the 2k has no business in that TFO because they're not ready for it yet. If our hypothetical TFO is an elite, then that 5th guy just by being there has guaranteed an automatic fail for the other 4 people because he joined something he wasn't ready for. More on this type of thing in a moment.
You are objectively incorrect regarding the line in bold. I absolutely have the right to be upset or annoyed when something negatively effects my gameplay, and I'm also free to voice my concerns about it. To be perfectly blunt dude, you are not important enough to be able to dictate to me or anyone else what we are allowed to be upset about or like/dislike about a game. I have every right to say I think the Jellyfish console needs to change just as you're free to voice your disagreement.
Now another important distinction, folks are free to play the game however they please while running solo or with friends. The moment you enter public content, it's not all about you anymore but about the team as a whole. You certainly have a right to seek out fun within game, just as I do too. However simultaneously your fun should not be allowed to come at the expense of 4 other people in a run. Why should you or anyone else be allowed to sit there, do literally nothing but activate one button and get full rewards? You can add interesting mechanics, ships, and items without it coming at the expense of entire teams. There are absolutely times when someone's fun is wrong. Take our previous hypothetical TFO example. That guy doing the 2k certainly has a right to build how he wants and fly how he wants on his own or with friends. However when wants to join public content, there is a proper etiquette to be observed. Why should the other 4 people in that TFO have to potentially carry the last guy? Answer is they shouldn't. If I say "that guy doing 2k isn't ready for (TFO here)" that's not DPS shaming him but stating a fact. DPS shaming would be saying "dude you're only doing 2k you're such a (choice of insult here) and need to uninstall". There is a stark difference between the two. To further illustrate the point, if myself and another guy work 40 hours per week doing the exact same job and I work the full 40 hours while he only worked 20, why should he be paid for the other 20 hours he didn't work?
Now how does this relate to the Jellyfish? The issue in this instance is that it has infinite up time on the transform and can allow you to automate your play to the point that you may as well be running a bot. I can setup the console, then step away for the 15 minutes to fry a burger, and come back to free loot. If there was a duration limit to the transformation and it didn't allow you to automate to that degree this wouldn't be an issue in my book. We can argue about positioning and otherwise, but point being is that it's absolutely possible to AFK using the Jellyfish and automate to the point it may as well be a low-level bot running, which I find very unhealthy for the game.
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I own one of those but do not use as courtesy to others.
Whenever, I'm in space TFO and see these around I either go to the opposite end of the map to avoid bumping into one or just get out of the TFO (dont care about the leaver penalty). I rather play with those who put the effort rather than others who use it as an advantage.
Sad this still continues and not fixed.
Original STO beta tester.
The real complaint is likely related to the current selection of event TFO's. They provide very little to no immersion for a subset of players, as they require doing almost nothing.
This particular selection isn't exactly one of my favorites. If I ever do another event campaign I'll simply buy it out.
I really have little interest in sitting on a map and doing almost nothing.
To me the jelly fish ships strongly represent everything I don't like about these maps (doing almost nothing) and I feel that the ships aren't anything more than a legitimatized form of AFK.
The reason jellys are rarely seen in a lot of other TFO's is because as a ship that is capable of only one thing, they're only really usuable on maps that require doing almost nothing.
I can see how some players may particularily dislike multiple jellies on some maps as their jelly fields assist in ensuring there's even less to do.
Log on, queue up, and press a button.
I'm not so sure if I'd consider that playing a game.
Attitudes like this are why there are so many afkers exploiting the game and you can't even buy zen because the market is so oversaturated with dilithium
I'm guessing you also are a afk exploiter and don't want your cheat toy nerfed
I don't think that works as a comparison as lack of things to spend dilithium on does not equal how a ship is designed and excells at one particular thing.
And jumping to "you're also an exploiter protecting your favorite toy" just because of a differing opinion is not exactly a good argument.
If this is a petition thread, then the rules are clear as we don't allow petitions on the forums.
And fix what? The ship is working as intended. And again it is a Niche ship. I fail to see how locking down an area to allow the rest of the team to focus on other areas is any less viable a strategy than anything else in game.
that would be... a nerf.
I was gonna say I've seen the Jelly in Swarm, but not jupiter where it makes more sense. and I'd rather have a Jelly instead of the TRIBBLE who wanders over to the emitter you are already guarding and sits there. Sorry, Pal, but your beam boat is NOT going to cover an emitter point as well as an EPG sci.