test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Feedback loops, self harm endeavours and borg diamonds,oh my...

ussvinovia#1662 ussvinovia Member Posts: 134 Arc User
There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
«1

Comments

  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,489 Arc User
    Thank you for reminding me what was missing on my Borg build: No Borg build is complete without a tractor beam and FBP.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,474 Arc User
    There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).

    They are not going to get rid of FBP. It's an useful skill........and why shouldn't NPC's have the exact same skills as players!? Why should you be allowed to vape NPC's without any consequence? You're not being punished.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    Also I pretty sure there's no endeavors that demand you to hurt yourself on purpose, pretty sure "heal hull" and "heal shield" ones work on NPCs and Team mates so if you don't get enough damage on yourself just play a mission or TFO where there's NPCs you can heal.
  • stofleet0#5353 stofleet0 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).

    They are not going to get rid of FBP. It's an useful skill........and why shouldn't NPC's have the exact same skills as players!? Why should you be allowed to vape NPC's without any consequence? You're not being punished.

    You mean other than the fact that there's a couple of orders of magnitude difference between what their FBP reflects at me vs what a full-sci, max-rank, max-aux FBP will reflect back at them, right? Or how about the fact that FBP only works against energy weapons. Not torps. Not exotic. And there is nothing like FBP for torps or exotics. Just energy weapons, and nothing else.

    Those sure seem like pretty important details to ignore....
  • duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,980 Arc User
    edited February 19
    spiritborn wrote: »
    Also I pretty sure there's no endeavors that demand you to hurt yourself on purpose, pretty sure "heal hull" and "heal shield" ones work on NPCs and Team mates so if you don't get enough damage on yourself just play a mission or TFO where there's NPCs you can heal.

    This. "Best practice" for those trying to min-max their time with these endeavors might dictate you go stand in a pool on Nukara or apply a self-damaging ability in space. But there's nothing in the design of the game requiring that behavior. Personal conventions =/= commandments from on high.
    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).
    If you're experiencing friction facing an ability, change approach. Eg. don't go all out on a target you *know* will spam FBP until after its used the ability. Apply careful timing. Don't leeroy jenkins your way into combat ad infinitum and against direct evidence that such an approach is not universally appropriate.

    Games exist as structured activities that incentivize and disincentivize behaviors to create the challenge, entertainment value, and narrative experiences of said game. The stick is an entirely valid approach for designers as (for example) it pushes players out of paths of least resistance and gets them thinking about what they're doing. As is the case here. See also vaadwuar AOE spam, na'kuhl invincibility, tzenkethi proximity buffs, iconian control powers, and difficulty scaling with level generally. Each is designed to get the player to do something different than their habituated routine. In FBP's case, its moderation and observation. Think when it comes to tackling spikey targets, be vigilant in what you activate against whom (probably the single greatest issue for players in STO: looking around them and processing information about what's happening in the game, so of buttons that an ability could push, this is a very valuable one), and you'll consistently succeed.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).

    They are not going to get rid of FBP. It's an useful skill........and why shouldn't NPC's have the exact same skills as players!? Why should you be allowed to vape NPC's without any consequence? You're not being punished.

    Because enemies already have a numerical advantage.

    There's nothing wrong with enemies having skills, but it needs to be one or the other. Not both.

    Besides, they need to be counterable. Enemy ability A is countered by player ability B, which is nulified by enemy ability C and so on...

    Having stuff that you just need to wait out (for most builds) is dumb.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    Also I pretty sure there's no endeavors that demand you to hurt yourself on purpose, pretty sure "heal hull" and "heal shield" ones work on NPCs and Team mates so if you don't get enough damage on yourself just play a mission or TFO where there's NPCs you can heal.

    True, but in practice those healing endeavours are only done in a reasonable amount of time if you deliberately handicap or damage yourself.

    Taking the shield healing as an example: it only works if you're also missing hit points. Which means that anyone with a reasonable amount of passive hull healing will see half his shield heals not add any progress for the endeavour.

    On the ground, it generally means you have to wait until your shields are entirely gone + losing some hit points, before you recharge your shields. With HP healing on the ground, you'd have to get killed almost entirely for like 18 to 30 times or so (depending on your toon's HP) before you've done enough healing.


    These endeavours are poorly designed. There are undocumented criteria that make no sense (a requirement to have missing HP when the task is to heal shields) and to complete them in normal gameplay, you (or a team mate) need(s) to utterly suck at playing the game.
    Because anyone with a decent build is going to vaporise the enemy before they've been hit with enough damage, or they're going to be just too good at dealing with the damage passively.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    Hull healing and shield healing in space can be reasonably done by just going to the Dyson battlezone and repairing the towers. But let's be honest: that's not really 'normal gameplay' either. It hardly differs from standing in a toxic pool on Nukara. The tasks are poorly designed since they don't encourage actually doing something worthwhile.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,474 Arc User
    edited February 19
    leemwatson wrote: »
    There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).

    They are not going to get rid of FBP. It's an useful skill........and why shouldn't NPC's have the exact same skills as players!? Why should you be allowed to vape NPC's without any consequence? You're not being punished.

    Because enemies already have a numerical advantage.

    There's nothing wrong with enemies having skills, but it needs to be one or the other. Not both.

    Besides, they need to be counterable. Enemy ability A is countered by player ability B, which is nulified by enemy ability C and so on...

    Having stuff that you just need to wait out (for most builds) is dumb.

    FBP IS counterable. And NPC numbers are irrelevant, they don't fire off 50 abilities in 4 seconds like players do. I have no issue with NPC's have the same skills. If a player cannot figure out what to do, especially to counter something as easy to counter as FBP, it's a player-problem, not a game problem. Just because a player has to wait out an ability is not a game issue either.

    It's complaining because someone can't vape because an ability stops it, that's all.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,808 Community Moderator
    I'll agree that some of the "heal x shields/hull/health" can be very annoying if you've got a durable build. With that said you are NOT being punished purely because you run into FBP nor does the ability need to be removed. Situational awareness is key when fighting foes that can FBP you. It's also another reason why it's a bad idea to build 100% pure DPS and never have any heals or defensives, which is a mistake I see far far too many people making. FBP can be removed with a Subnuc or similar effect. Is it annoying to run into a FBP, certainly but it doesn't need to be removed.

    If there is any ability that needs to be removed from the game it's the Viral Impulse Burst that the Mokai Klingons are able to spam nigh infinitely at times. That power is just plain rage inducing when you get hit by it enough.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • solidshark214solidshark214 Member Posts: 347 Arc User
    I'll agree that some of the "heal x shields/hull/health" can be very annoying if you've got a durable build. With that said you are NOT being punished purely because you run into FBP nor does the ability need to be removed. Situational awareness is key when fighting foes that can FBP you. It's also another reason why it's a bad idea to build 100% pure DPS and never have any heals or defensives, which is a mistake I see far far too many people making. FBP can be removed with a Subnuc or similar effect. Is it annoying to run into a FBP, certainly but it doesn't need to be removed.

    If there is any ability that needs to be removed from the game it's the Viral Impulse Burst that the Mokai Klingons are able to spam nigh infinitely at times. That power is just plain rage inducing when you get hit by it enough.

    Oh, yes, I would love to see Viral Impulse Burst gone. There's a fine line between "challenging" and "gratuitously frustrating", and IMO VIB falls into the latter. Nothing like being forced to zoom well away from the battle because Engineering Team happened to be on cooldown... and sometimes if it wasn't, because I get hit with it twice in a row.

    FBP, I admit to finding kind of funny. There's a certain delicious irony in knowing I exploded because I'd min-maxed my own build a bit too well.
  • dragon#2626 dragon Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    I'll agree that some of the "heal x shields/hull/health" can be very annoying if you've got a durable build. With that said you are NOT being punished purely because you run into FBP nor does the ability need to be removed. Situational awareness is key when fighting foes that can FBP you. It's also another reason why it's a bad idea to build 100% pure DPS and never have any heals or defensives, which is a mistake I see far far too many people making. FBP can be removed with a Subnuc or similar effect. Is it annoying to run into a FBP, certainly but it doesn't need to be removed.

    If there is any ability that needs to be removed from the game it's the Viral Impulse Burst that the Mokai Klingons are able to spam nigh infinitely at times. That power is just plain rage inducing when you get hit by it enough.

    Yes, Viral Impulse Burst needs to be removed. I don't object to, say, Subnuc, the problem there being how it's handled; it's not balanced for the swarming tactics Cryptic so loves, and it shouldn't be possible to reapply it the instant it's cleared. Viral Impulse Burst is rage inducing indeed, especially since it forces you to waste your main heal.
    I swim through a sea of stars. . . .
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,600 Community Moderator
    edited February 20
    Viral Impulse Burst can be cleared by Engie Team.
    However in some situations just like Viral Impulse Burst, Subnuc can be just as infuriating. When you have a very good build and can nuke waves of enemies, like in Ninth Rule against Hirogen, that is when the problem REALLY shows because you now have FRESH ships coming in that can hit you with fresh stacks of Subnuc when your Sci Team is still on cooldown from the previous wave. And the worst part is that both the Frigates and Hunters have Subnuc, and there's like five of them per wave.

    Regarding Moaki Viral Impulse Burst some more, its only specific ships that use it. All the battleships other than the Cleave have access to Viral Impulse Burst. Honestly not sure why the Cleave is different, but its a welcome repieve from the Charg and Bortas'bir VIB spam.

    As of right now I think the counter to FBP is Subnuc, and perhaps by extention Subnuc Carrier Wave from Intel ships. Also I believe FBP does NOT trigger off Kinetic weapons like Torpedoes. Just Energy weapons. So tactics wise it might be wise to let off the Energy attacks and fall back on Torps if possible. This is especially hard for pure energy builds and Escorts that have spike damage because you are effectively spiking yourself. Maybe if there was a DOff or an ability/trait that had a chance of stripping enemy buffs it might be interesting to experiment with, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,343 Arc User
    you are upset about FBP NOW? back in the day before the first great Sci Nerf a go to tactic was RSP=FBP and watch the escorts vape themselves. failing that you could shut them down, cruise over and pound them. as it is now, FBP is a ghost of what it was
    u7acy6aymfw7.gif
    We Need BERETS in the tailor
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,474 Arc User
    nixie50 wrote: »
    you are upset about FBP NOW? back in the day before the first great Sci Nerf a go to tactic was RSP=FBP and watch the escorts vape themselves. failing that you could shut them down, cruise over and pound them. as it is now, FBP is a ghost of what it was

    I always use Reverse Shield Polarity (RSP) for FBP, heals my shields and I ride FBP out whilst still shooting if I don't have Subnuc ready, and I'll throw Tac Beam (on my Sci ships) because that'll do the killing for me.
    I'll agree that some of the "heal x shields/hull/health" can be very annoying if you've got a durable build. With that said you are NOT being punished purely because you run into FBP nor does the ability need to be removed. Situational awareness is key when fighting foes that can FBP you. It's also another reason why it's a bad idea to build 100% pure DPS and never have any heals or defensives, which is a mistake I see far far too many people making. FBP can be removed with a Subnuc or similar effect. Is it annoying to run into a FBP, certainly but it doesn't need to be removed.

    If there is any ability that needs to be removed from the game it's the Viral Impulse Burst that the Mokai Klingons are able to spam nigh infinitely at times. That power is just plain rage inducing when you get hit by it enough.

    VIP is indeed frustrating, but I don't come across the Mokai often enough to warrant to call for it's removal. It's their equivalent of the shield reinforcement with the Tzenkethi. Again, it's clearable with Hazard Emitters and Eng Team, or avoided by staying out further than 5km. I think it's that, but I know distance is key, best to stay far out.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,808 Community Moderator
    Yes, Viral Impulse Burst needs to be removed. I don't object to, say, Subnuc, the problem there being how it's handled; it's not balanced for the swarming tactics Cryptic so loves, and it shouldn't be possible to reapply it the instant it's cleared. Viral Impulse Burst is rage inducing indeed, especially since it forces you to waste your main heal.

    What are you doing that Engineering Team is your main heal? I know I play primarily as a tank, but you should have more than just that. Not trying to dunk on your build if it sounds that way, legitimately curious as to what you're running.

    With that in mind, I'm of the mindset no debuff like Subnuc or ViB should be able to be reapplied immediately after it's been cleared. There should be a few seconds of immunity to major powers like that being applied to you again. Doesn't have to be super long, could be as simple as 5 seconds.
    leemwatson wrote: »
    VIP is indeed frustrating, but I don't come across the Mokai often enough to warrant to call for it's removal. It's their equivalent of the shield reinforcement with the Tzenkethi. Again, it's clearable with Hazard Emitters and Eng Team, or avoided by staying out further than 5km. I think it's that, but I know distance is key, best to stay far out.

    Relevant section highlighted in bold.

    I didn't say it has to be removed. What I said was that if they're going to remove annoying NPC powers, that one needs to be at the top of the list. Giving folks a few seconds of immunity after being effected by it a first time would alleviate alot of the complaints about it. Problem is that NPCs can potentially spam it on you. I've had hazard emitters up and still been sent flying by that power so I'm not sure what went on there. Can it be cleared by certain powers like Eng team, sure, but that's only good for one instance of the power. If they can spam it on you then you effectively have zero counter for it. The 5km thing also doesn't work either as I've gotten tagged by it while sitting at 9km out.

    For the bolded section, just no, that's not even remotely the same kind of power. Is it one of their signature abilities, certainly. However shield reinforcement doesn't remove you from the fight completely. At least with the shield reinforcement you have multiple ways you can approach it, not so with ViB. See previous paragraph, problem isn't per say the existence of the power, but that it can be spammed with impunity. If for example you're fighting them with a full team of 5, with enough spam pops of that power the NPCs can effectively keep one guy out of the fight permanently which is way overpowered and not fun at all.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,474 Arc User
    Yes, Viral Impulse Burst needs to be removed. I don't object to, say, Subnuc, the problem there being how it's handled; it's not balanced for the swarming tactics Cryptic so loves, and it shouldn't be possible to reapply it the instant it's cleared. Viral Impulse Burst is rage inducing indeed, especially since it forces you to waste your main heal.

    What are you doing that Engineering Team is your main heal? I know I play primarily as a tank, but you should have more than just that. Not trying to dunk on your build if it sounds that way, legitimately curious as to what you're running.

    With that in mind, I'm of the mindset no debuff like Subnuc or ViB should be able to be reapplied immediately after it's been cleared. There should be a few seconds of immunity to major powers like that being applied to you again. Doesn't have to be super long, could be as simple as 5 seconds.
    leemwatson wrote: »
    VIP is indeed frustrating, but I don't come across the Mokai often enough to warrant to call for it's removal. It's their equivalent of the shield reinforcement with the Tzenkethi. Again, it's clearable with Hazard Emitters and Eng Team, or avoided by staying out further than 5km. I think it's that, but I know distance is key, best to stay far out.

    Relevant section highlighted in bold.

    I didn't say it has to be removed. What I said was that if they're going to remove annoying NPC powers, that one needs to be at the top of the list. Giving folks a few seconds of immunity after being effected by it a first time would alleviate alot of the complaints about it. Problem is that NPCs can potentially spam it on you. I've had hazard emitters up and still been sent flying by that power so I'm not sure what went on there. Can it be cleared by certain powers like Eng team, sure, but that's only good for one instance of the power. If they can spam it on you then you effectively have zero counter for it. The 5km thing also doesn't work either as I've gotten tagged by it while sitting at 9km out.

    For the bolded section, just no, that's not even remotely the same kind of power. Is it one of their signature abilities, certainly. However shield reinforcement doesn't remove you from the fight completely. At least with the shield reinforcement you have multiple ways you can approach it, not so with ViB. See previous paragraph, problem isn't per say the existence of the power, but that it can be spammed with impunity. If for example you're fighting them with a full team of 5, with enough spam pops of that power the NPCs can effectively keep one guy out of the fight permanently which is way overpowered and not fun at all.

    Apologies Dark, this was addressing the sentiment others made. I totally agree it's annoying when it's spammed, but it can be protected against with Hazard Emitters whilst that is active. On PC it's a judgement call when to activate it, but it would be great if conditional triggers were allowed on PC like they are on Console. On Console, ViP can be instantaneously nullified by Hazard Emitters or Sci/Eng Team (forgot which one) the moment it hits by selecting the appropriate setting, although you really want Hazard Emitters as it is a continuous cleanse.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 3,159 Arc User
    ...If you're experiencing friction facing an ability, change approach. Eg. don't go all out on a target you *know* will spam FBP until after its used the ability. Apply careful timing. Don't leeroy jenkins your way into combat ad infinitum and against direct evidence that such an approach is not universally appropriate.

    If I'm in a TFO where I'm using a cannon build and there's a possibility of FBP being used by an offending enemy ship, I tend to "tickle" the suspect ships with unbuffed weapons prior to more fully engaging (with buffs) in an attempt to get a reaction out of them. Some of my cannon builds include a copy of CRF as well as CSV so it's possible to individually target other ships in the same enemy group instead of waiting for the FBP to end and targeting the entire group.

    With a cannon build I don't think it's really a matter of building or not building for "dps" as with the higher spike damage that cannons bring to the game it's basically the nature of an offensively orientated ship that you'll blow yourself up in a fraction of a second when firing at an NPC with FBP if you're fully buffed.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,600 Community Moderator
    leemwatson wrote: »
    On Console, ViP can be instantaneously nullified by Hazard Emitters or Sci/Eng Team (forgot which one) the moment it hits by selecting the appropriate setting, although you really want Hazard Emitters as it is a continuous cleanse.

    Its Engie Team. Should be if Console is the same as PC anyways. I don't know from personal experience if Hazard Emitters or Sci Team works on Viral Impulse Burst. I thought it was an Engie Debuff, not a DoT or Sci Debuff.
    I might have to see if the wiki classifies it and identifies counters.

    https://stowiki.net/wiki/Ability:_Viral_Impulse_Burst

    Ok Wiki doesn't list counters, but apparently it does say that its a 5 km radius and Control Resist can decrease the duration.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • mandellorian#9145 mandellorian Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    The big problem with the game currently is you encounter enemy X, they hit you with ability Y, you counter with ability Z and take them out..5 seconds later you have another enemy X spawn in and instantly hit you with ability Y, and you are stuck waiting for ability Z to cooldown. There is something deeply wrong with a game that you get punished for actually defeating your opponent. Its got to the point i no longer actively try to kill the AI in most TFO that have infinite spawns..i`ll kill them down to just above the the spawn limit and then yeet them with an ability or nail their feet to the floor with a tractor effect to keep them out of range of whatever i`m supposed to be protecting. Admittedly this really irritates the DPS crowd but it stops the AI spamming irritating abilities every 10-15 seconds as they actually have to wait for them to recharge.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 2,824 Arc User
    I'm pretty sure some Starfleet training exercises even on holodecks involve some level of physical pain, which can be interpreted as taking a little bit of hp damage.

    Pretty sure the Republic Star Navy would also, and DEFINITELY the klingons.

    "He shall be my finest warrior, this generic man who was forced upon me.
    Like a badass I shall make him look, and in the furnace of war I shall forge him.
    he shall be of iron will and steely sinew.
    In great armour I shall clad him and with the mightiest weapons he shall be armed.
    He will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight him.
    He shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best him in battle.
    He is my answer to cryptic logic, he is the Defender of my Romulan Crew.
    He is Tovan Khev... and he shall know no fear."
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,115 Arc User
    There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).

    Pssst - Here's a tip. You can keep an eye on what your Boffs say in Chat and STOP firing when they warn you when the Queen's Diamond is about to FBP. (Yes, I know, horrible you have to hit any other key than Spacebar in a fight from time to time and need to pay a little attention to the encounter once in a while.)
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,600 Community Moderator
    Also if you have a Science Captain in the group, Subnuc strips Feedback Pulse.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,474 Arc User
    edited March 13
    The big problem with the game currently is you encounter enemy X, they hit you with ability Y, you counter with ability Z and take them out..5 seconds later you have another enemy X spawn in and instantly hit you with ability Y, and you are stuck waiting for ability Z to cooldown. There is something deeply wrong with a game that you get punished for actually defeating your opponent. Its got to the point i no longer actively try to kill the AI in most TFO that have infinite spawns..i`ll kill them down to just above the the spawn limit and then yeet them with an ability or nail their feet to the floor with a tractor effect to keep them out of range of whatever i`m supposed to be protecting. Admittedly this really irritates the DPS crowd but it stops the AI spamming irritating abilities every 10-15 seconds as they actually have to wait for them to recharge.

    The big problem with the game currently is NPC's encounter enemy X who hit them with 100% uptime Grav Wells, BFAW, CSV, Torp Spreads etc. etc. without respite and are unable to counter it (in most cases). There is something deeply wrong with a game that constantly punished NPC's with giving them inferior defense tactics.

    THINK OF THE (NPC) CHILDREN!!!! :lol:

    Sorry, I've no sympathy for folk who won't adapt, even if AI has to spam irritating abilities to last more than 2 seconds against players.

    The game is not Farmville. It's a player problem, not a game problem. Players have never had it so good in this game.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).

    Pssst - Here's a tip. You can keep an eye on what your Boffs say in Chat and STOP firing when they warn you when the Queen's Diamond is about to FBP. (Yes, I know, horrible you have to hit any other key than Spacebar in a fight from time to time and need to pay a little attention to the encounter once in a while.)

    I'm all for promoting situational awareness, but then the player also needs to be able to actually do something with it.

    Just laying there with your ship and waiting until the enemy buff has expired isn't exactly engaging gameplay.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Also if you have a Science Captain in the group, Subnuc strips Feedback Pulse.

    True, but some of the cigar shaped ships also have Feedback Pulse. If there's only one Sci on the team, there's a fair chance it has to be used and will be on cooldown when the fight against the Queen starts (basically the same problem with endlessly spamming Hirogen in some patrols, even if those are even more annoying due to their greater numbers).
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,474 Arc User
    There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).

    Pssst - Here's a tip. You can keep an eye on what your Boffs say in Chat and STOP firing when they warn you when the Queen's Diamond is about to FBP. (Yes, I know, horrible you have to hit any other key than Spacebar in a fight from time to time and need to pay a little attention to the encounter once in a while.)

    I'm all for promoting situational awareness, but then the player also needs to be able to actually do something with it.

    Just laying there with your ship and waiting until the enemy buff has expired isn't exactly engaging gameplay.

    The best counter, besides SubNuc and/or RSP plus Hazard Emitters is a Tachyon Beam from a Sci vessel with Deteriorating Sec Deflector equipped. Melts the ship in question and has a fast cooldown.

    Just because waiting it out isn't 'engaging gameplay', it doesn't make it wrong or mean the game has an issue though. This is a player complaining because there is something they can't vape in 2 seconds flat. FBP used to reflect MORE than 100% of incoming damage and Cryptic nerf'd it so it did not exceed that, and guess what, players complained! The OP clear just wants to vape everything as fast as possible and wants to shave a few seconds of their speed runs.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 5,051 Arc User
    edited March 13
    leemwatson wrote: »
    There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).

    Pssst - Here's a tip. You can keep an eye on what your Boffs say in Chat and STOP firing when they warn you when the Queen's Diamond is about to FBP. (Yes, I know, horrible you have to hit any other key than Spacebar in a fight from time to time and need to pay a little attention to the encounter once in a while.)

    I'm all for promoting situational awareness, but then the player also needs to be able to actually do something with it.

    Just laying there with your ship and waiting until the enemy buff has expired isn't exactly engaging gameplay.

    The best counter, besides SubNuc and/or RSP plus Hazard Emitters is a Tachyon Beam from a Sci vessel with Deteriorating Sec Deflector equipped. Melts the ship in question and has a fast cooldown.

    Just because waiting it out isn't 'engaging gameplay', it doesn't make it wrong or mean the game has an issue though. This is a player complaining because there is something they can't vape in 2 seconds flat. FBP used to reflect MORE than 100% of incoming damage and Cryptic nerf'd it so it did not exceed that, and guess what, players complained! The OP clear just wants to vape everything as fast as possible and wants to shave a few seconds of their speed runs.

    Your advice isn't that different, it just boils down to 'melt the ship differently'.

    As much as I enjoy flying my own different Sci builds, it's kind of funny to defend the workings of FBP by suggesting anyone opposed to its current workings is just complaining because they cannot melt ships instantly anymore (when people are actually just asking for effective counters) and then suggest they melt ships faster...

    I hope you see the irony here.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,600 Community Moderator
    I'm not seeing irony. I'm seeing different tactics to achieve the same goal. Defeat the enemy.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,474 Arc User
    edited March 13
    leemwatson wrote: »
    There is something fundamentaly counter intuitive about hurting yourself. Endeavours that need you to actually damage yourself. When I get heal health I Do 'home' and toast myself for around 15 minutes in the first plasma fire because there is no other way that I'm going to take that much damage.

    In Space I just forget it. But what really annoys me is feedback pulse. I am punished for the damage I deal. I can now on FAW guarantee to be dead in 1 second against feedback pulse because of how good my damage is. I am punished for making a great ship. So now I have to sit and wait against feedback pulse enemies as if I even take a shot I'm dead.

    This is also TRIBBLE for my teammates. Get rid of feedback pulse (and it's equally TRIBBLE alternatives). I don't want or need to spend a trait or console against somthing I have no control over. The only way to is by primary spec Temporal (ie free life).

    Pssst - Here's a tip. You can keep an eye on what your Boffs say in Chat and STOP firing when they warn you when the Queen's Diamond is about to FBP. (Yes, I know, horrible you have to hit any other key than Spacebar in a fight from time to time and need to pay a little attention to the encounter once in a while.)

    I'm all for promoting situational awareness, but then the player also needs to be able to actually do something with it.

    Just laying there with your ship and waiting until the enemy buff has expired isn't exactly engaging gameplay.

    The best counter, besides SubNuc and/or RSP plus Hazard Emitters is a Tachyon Beam from a Sci vessel with Deteriorating Sec Deflector equipped. Melts the ship in question and has a fast cooldown.

    Just because waiting it out isn't 'engaging gameplay', it doesn't make it wrong or mean the game has an issue though. This is a player complaining because there is something they can't vape in 2 seconds flat. FBP used to reflect MORE than 100% of incoming damage and Cryptic nerf'd it so it did not exceed that, and guess what, players complained! The OP clear just wants to vape everything as fast as possible and wants to shave a few seconds of their speed runs.

    Your advice isn't that different, it just boils down to 'melt the ship differently'.

    As much as I enjoy flying my own different Sci builds, it's kind of funny to defend the workings of FBP by suggesting anyone opposed to its current workings is just complaining because they cannot melt ships instantly anymore (when people are actually just asking for effective counters) and then suggest they melt ships faster...

    I hope you see the irony here.

    That's NOT what I said. I gave valid and easily accessible counters as a way of adapting. There is no irony.

    This complaint is purely because someone can't/won't adapt their own play style. Even if I don't use a Tac Beam, with RSP (Reverse Shield Polarity) and Hazard emitters, I can still dispatch an enemy throwing FBP easily without worrying about destroying myself. If that person won't slot RSP to protect themselves, then it's their own fault, not the game's.

    RSP is freely available at any Boff skill vendor and it outlasts the duration of FBP. It simply is the best and most economical defense against FBP. It should be mandatory for survivability on every build :lol:
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
This discussion has been closed.