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The major nerf to Maelstrom Torpedo (updated with changes to maelstrom on tribble)

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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,129 Community Moderator
    husanakx wrote: »
    No one was one shot ending anything through shields, outside the odd fully buffed hit on a super debuffed target.

    Uh... I was. On a brand new character, with Torp Spread II obliterating entire groups of enemies through shields on normal with unupgraded, white quality leveling Maelstrom Torps. While I do have Endeavor buffs, those are passive and sure as hell wouldn't push an unaugmented anything up that high. No consoles, no debuffs on the enemies... just Torp Spread II.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,600 Arc User
    edited July 2023
    rattler2 wrote: »
    husanakx wrote: »
    No one was one shot ending anything through shields, outside the odd fully buffed hit on a super debuffed target.

    Uh... I was. On a brand new character, with Torp Spread II obliterating entire groups of enemies through shields on normal with unupgraded, white quality leveling Maelstrom Torps. While I do have Endeavor buffs, those are passive and sure as hell wouldn't push an unaugmented anything up that high. No consoles, no debuffs on the enemies... just Torp Spread II.

    Your talking about Normal mode. That doesn't count at all.
    I could put white energy weapons on and do that content just as fast. Normal mode NPCs also insta splod when they are hit with a time device with HY2... or even a standard old Tricobalt. Normal mode is not hard... its the mode you put on when you want to go to sleep, don't want to be challenged or so your 8 year old can try out the game. (no offense to people that like to Role play and play on normal all good. play as you like)

    You can't balance the game around normal mode. Is my point.

    Even in advanced difficulty no one was one shoting boss level enemies with a Mael. Perhaps a small grouping of probes, but who cares being able to one shot a low level NPCs once every 1:30 isn't unbalanced. I mean to build those charges you are sitting out a weapon hard point for that long. It does ZERO dps until you fire it at a 3 charge... that is why it was fine.

    Yes for the record I think my personal record with it... one fire was a little under 9 Million DMG. (which sounds like a lot but again 1:30 to build a charge... my record with a Time device is 2m, and I can fire those every 8-10s or so) Sure some people and even cryptic would look at that and say oh that is broken. However you have to consider that I could just slot another heavy hitting torp in that spot on my torp boat and just throw everything on auto mode. My Parsed dmg wouldn't be far off... might even be higher if I was spacing out. Cause throwing 5 torps on auto mode on a pilot torp boat is just a heck of a lot less thinking. The fun part of the mael was essentially doing the same DPS... but every 1:30 being able to line up some big numbers.

    Anyway it is what it is... I feel bad for the new guy. He had plans to launch a new type of torp. Now it is over. I can guarantee I won't bother buying whatever ship is required to grab the next Maelstrom type torp. I'll just keep shooting the same torps I have been firing for almost a decade. I am a little bummed I was excited to see what he would cook up in the way of a Chroniton or transphasic maelstrom, I even dreamed of a 2-3m charging Super Tric. Clearly none of that is happening.
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    xgamefreakzxgamefreakz Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited July 2023
    I've seen the video of the "one shotting CE boss" that people are talking about and the person that did (spencer) it has sent me the parse. Maelstrom spread 3 only did 3.2m damage of its 13.5m damage. And he is on a high-end build, its spencer.

    That was already expected, as trying to one shot a 13.5m damage is not at all easy, nevertheless it is highly misleading and over-exaggerated. Not to mention the CE did not go into any immunity phase for a full 10s (fix this...).
    Absolutely disappointing to see so many people going around parroting this.

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    Post edited by xgamefreakz on
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    decyphi#9976 decyphi Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    Overall I agree with OP

    I paid for this because I wanted spike damage fun in advanced and elite content.

    This seemed like part of Jonathan’s larger strategy of tweaking current weak points to make new and unique strengths (e.g. TFOs, crafting, pets, Terran Eagle).

    The maelstrom is the best example—a Barbie accurate torpedo that makes using 1-2 torpedoes a viable build.

    I am ok with an adjustment.

    I appreciate that they tried to balance the adjustment.

    It is just a bit overdone—

    I hope you can find a balance.

    Overall, this team does a good job and I appreciate them trying to bring new and good things
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    duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,950 Arc User
    edited July 2023
    rattler2 wrote: »
    husanakx wrote: »
    No one was one shot ending anything through shields, outside the odd fully buffed hit on a super debuffed target.

    Uh... I was. On a brand new character, with Torp Spread II obliterating entire groups of enemies through shields on normal with unupgraded, white quality leveling Maelstrom Torps. While I do have Endeavor buffs, those are passive and sure as hell wouldn't push an unaugmented anything up that high. No consoles, no debuffs on the enemies... just Torp Spread II.

    A key part of the discussion is what happened to the next squad of the combat encounter. The buff for Maelstrom is front loading damage potential, if the anecdote/statistical analysis is just "here's what I did when I fired at full" that can seriously bias corrections because the mechanic is based on that being a trade-off with slow firing, slow to charge, torps. You may obliterate a first line but you will struggle more against a second vs. a conventional torpedo. And most of STO's combat is wave based, which is why I've only ever used one maelstrom on any torp build (and only a few torp builds), usually supplementing with the discovery rep quantum for usability. Even Neutronic torpedoes aren't so harsh in their usability-for-damage penalty, which is what made Maelstroms fun (because the trade-off required careful consideration if in active combat, and why nerfing back to 50% removes a lot of fun in the torp.) You basically don't need to think about its use anymore, which enters into a discussion about whether they practically exist anymore if they don't significantly change gameplay tempo. Just a slightly front loaded quantum, why bother beyond aesthetics?

    White quality maelstroms also = VR, when you reach a point to upgrade there's no change in damage potential when the item is converted. It's not equivalent to common base torpedoes, and I've wrecked groups on new characters with fresh prolonged engagement photons (VR), early gameplay is very generous with torp destructive power (which wanes over time as balance scaling relationships change). So for testing Maelstroms early, they need to be gauged over time and with usability trade-offs for that point of the damage curve firmly in mind. And that usability compromise was demonstrably working to rein in overall effect (as overall damage is unchanged with the nerf, meaning the numbers that were being put up on the high end were being compensated for by the slow charge which Casual SAB's breakdown also reinforces.)


    I think that's where a lot of underlying consternation lies in the nerf + reasoning so far. If damage was scaled down with *no* change to recharge time then we'd know its a case of simply being overpowered. Shrug shoulders, move on. But to scale both back is fairly frustrating as it says the trade-off mechanic was working as intended (overall damage is still being held roughly constant) but the peaks were "too high" and that somehow escaped testing (and the effect of those peaks is being judged against builds that already vaporize all targets instantly.) So why hold boss survival as such an issue? Why not just treat that as a call to add more QoL support to Elite for effective boss buffing across this and all similar issues? And if the spiking is so bad you can ID the problem on a blank slate character, we basically have to throw Jonathan under the bus for not doing any due diligence in testing, which is a non-starter as he did test very thoroughly.

    So what exactly was the problem here and why such a severe nerf to the concept? After going through this all, I can't answer that. I don't know how Cryptic likely gets to that decision and from Kael's comment on Ten Forward today (deferring the explanation for another day when Jonathan is on) Jonathan's reasoning wasn't simple. You can get big numbers, but there's a wider context here that doesn't line up with the update (see. trade-off mechanic was working, overall power over time wasn't the issue.) Scary numbers showing up in the damage logs shouldn't be enough to trigger this particular shift (straight nerf with no recharge adjustment would have been another story). That data would need to be paired against TFO success stats (ex. average time to completion with/without maelstrom) to really judge whether one-shotting bosses with maelstrom mattered (for that team and it's build alternatives, the saving could be a matter of seconds or fractions there of). The only way I personally get to a "yeah this really needs a BIG change" is if Maelstrom was shaving off major fractions of average TFO completion times (ex. 20%) because of the boss melting specifically. But from my experiences, I don't think that's likely.

    So we basically have to wait at least a couple more weeks for anything to really go on. We can present different cases in game and get to different answers depending on the context selected (ie. how much of the usability trade-off is being factored in) but for why a 50% nerf this late after release (first week this would have started happening if an obvious, systemic issue) and with internal testing taking care of obvious issues pre-launch...we need word from on high to make sense of this. And that's not a great place for the community to be in.


    And as feedback to the devs: this kind of update deserves a microblog explaining the reasoning, not a line in the patch note (especially if Kael can't do it justice on stream without the dev involved.) We'll have had weeks of arguments (many of which likely moot, missing key details) and entrenching emotions before clarity is had in any degree as is. After the infiltrator nerf and revision, I recall some comments were made about wanting to improve transparency with the systems team regarding big balance changes (avoiding such blow ups). That, from this case, really did not happen.
    Post edited by duncanidaho11 on
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
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    nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,290 Arc User
    well they said the halved the damage but i think it's a lot more than half..also no where nearly as many crits as before. so maybe the halved the damage AND the crit chance
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    xgamefreakzxgamefreakz Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    nixie50 wrote: »
    well they said the halved the damage but i think it's a lot more than half..also no where nearly as many crits as before. so maybe the halved the damage AND the crit chance

    crit chance is the same.
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    duncanidaho11duncanidaho11 Member Posts: 7,950 Arc User
    edited July 2023
    nixie50 wrote: »
    well they said the halved the damage but i think it's a lot more than half..also no where nearly as many crits as before. so maybe the halved the damage AND the crit chance

    Yeah that shouldn't be an issue. When gauging crits on a single, slow firing weapon, you'll often need a large sample size to judge whether your stated rate in a game actually corresponds to a real rate. Say it's 20% crit rate. If you fire 10 torps the odds of seeing 2/10 crits is only ~30% and the spread around the average rate only narrows with lots and lots of repeat trials. What you're probably seeing is just a string of bad luck, which isn't going to be *that* unlikely with maelstroms over a single play session or so (especially if you're *looking* for nerf effects and notice your lack of crits more than your crits).

    If feeling adventurous, you can run a chi-square test on observed vs. expected crits (recording each salvo, whether it crits, and comparing that to expected crits under your crit chance %) to provide a definitive test for any anomalies.
    Bipedal mammal and senior Foundry author.
    Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
    Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
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    tempest#6385 tempest Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited July 2023
    Sorry, this information has been intercepted after frequent changes and has now passed the review.
    Post edited by tempest#6385 on
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    tempest#6385 tempest Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited July 2023
    Sorry, this information has been intercepted after frequent changes and has now passed the review.
    Post edited by tempest#6385 on
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    lopequillopequil Member Posts: 1,226 Arc User
    As of today the maelstroms have the correct 15s cooldown. My support ticket was rejected with a reply saying they were working as intended with 30s, but I'm not going to complain. At least they work properly now.
    Q9BWcdD.png
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    f9thretxcf9thretxc Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    So here are my concerns. Mind you, I love this game, have been playing since Beta.

    While we do have another nerf, to another weapon, and I understand the reasons for it, I simply do not have the confidence, to ever buy any other ship, or to worry myself with events, esp if we spend time or Money, just to get the new shiny, and have it nerfed in a month or so. No matter how good or bad the reason is.

    Now I see we have a new article over this, and I kind of wish, that the powers who be, would have been upfront about this. That it was a test bed. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask for honesty, or at least Disclosure, if we are gonna be spending time with the game.

    It's not even about getting the new shiny, But how about the costs of Upgrading it.

    I do apologize, if others see this as an unpopular opinion, and I really wish no harm, But instead, I would just like to see more forthrightness, to avoid misunderstandings, or ill feelings, from us, the player base.

    I say this as I still think STO is one of the best MMO's I have ever played, in my life time.
    My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
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    davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,540 Arc User
    edited August 2023
    @f9thretxc - If you are planning to buy a ship or gear piece just to get some overpowered trait that you know is overpowered, then the smart thing to do is to wait a few weeks. Or if it is a one-time introductory discount like new legendary bundles, then stop and ask yourself if you still want the bundle even if the trait or whatever is nerfed.

    All MMOs nerf things, and they can't warn you in advance because they nerf things when they discover they are much more powerful than expected when used in ways the developers did not expect. That's life. It's not bait and switch, it's that devs and QA can't tell by themselves how something will work when used by thousands or tens of thousands of players with many many different builds.

    I'm an application developer (not games, not Cryptic) and users with their infinite diversity in infinite combinations have surprised me many times over the years by using our applications "wrong", which really means in ways we didn't expect.
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,129 Community Moderator
    f9thretxc wrote: »
    Now I see we have a new article over this, and I kind of wish, that the powers who be, would have been upfront about this. That it was a test bed. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask for honesty, or at least Disclosure, if we are gonna be spending time with the game.

    I'm pretty sure they made it clear in the livestreams that it was a testbed weapon that would be tweaked because they have expressed interest in making more Maelstrom Torpedoes of various kinds in the future.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,368 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    f9thretxc wrote: »
    Now I see we have a new article over this, and I kind of wish, that the powers who be, would have been upfront about this. That it was a test bed. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask for honesty, or at least Disclosure, if we are gonna be spending time with the game.

    I'm pretty sure they made it clear in the livestreams that it was a testbed weapon that would be tweaked because they have expressed interest in making more Maelstrom Torpedoes of various kinds in the future.

    Yes, they did.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
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    f9thretxcf9thretxc Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    @davefenestrator You are correct. One can always hope.

    As for the live streams. I didn't even know those where still a thing, and was unaware, I stand corrected, so thanks.
    My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,129 Community Moderator
    Yea the livestreams are a thing, however due to Kael's promotion he's now doing livestreams for both STO and Neverwinter, so we're on an alternating schedule instead of once a week. So we get a livestream every other week. I did start a sticky thread that has all the uploaded livestreams on STO's YouTube channel here on the forums. I'll probably have to check if we have the recent ones.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    duasynduasyn Member Posts: 492 Arc User
    I agree with their thinking about making torp firing 'meaningful'.
    How you do that w/o obliterating everything in one-shot, I got no clue.
    If it starts at 0 charges at the beginning, everything will be dead before it charges because ship builds can already get stupidly OP already.
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    f9thretxcf9thretxc Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    Let me pre-face this with saying, I am not at all trying to be disagreeable, had a real bad day. Just found out my wife of 28 years is terminal.

    After Reading @rattler2 ''s comments about the live stream, And I offer this as a suggestion, shouldn't this make it that much more relevant to have posted the information publicly here? I mean if it is 2 weeks between livestreams. All I am suggesting, is that such a thin in the future make it into the blog or somewhere here, when new stuff becomes available.

    I apologize if I have over stepped the good will of this community. It just seems logical to me, to just make the information more clear.
    My mother always told me to walk away from a fight, The Marines taught me how.
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,129 Community Moderator
    I think it was, or Baddmoon posted the tweet about it. We mods are doing what we can to make sure news spreads around.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    kurtronkurtron Member Posts: 191 Arc User
    I will still argue that mentioning it once on a livestream (which many players aren't aware of) and then not again until after the changes are made (and upsetting many of your customers) is still not good business.
    I get it, Cryptic wants to make money, so putting something different and experimental in an expensive bundle makes sense. At the very least there should have been mention that the product may change somewhere in the description, both in the store and the blog.
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,129 Community Moderator
    kurtron wrote: »
    I will still argue that mentioning it once on a livestream (which many players aren't aware of) and then not again until after the changes are made (and upsetting many of your customers) is still not good business.
    I get it, Cryptic wants to make money, so putting something different and experimental in an expensive bundle makes sense. At the very least there should have been mention that the product may change somewhere in the description, both in the store and the blog.

    I believe that they usually do when they give stats on things.
    And as with everything in am MMO...

    "Stats subject to change."

    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,430 Community Moderator
    kurtron wrote: »
    I will still argue that mentioning it once on a livestream (which many players aren't aware of) and then not again until after the changes are made (and upsetting many of your customers) is still not good business.
    I get it, Cryptic wants to make money, so putting something different and experimental in an expensive bundle makes sense. At the very least there should have been mention that the product may change somewhere in the description, both in the store and the blog.

    While it's true that this time the blog did not specifically mention that the stats were subject to change, your profile shows that you've been on the forum since at least 2012 and have been playing the game at least that long. So, you had to have seen blogs where such a qualifier was included, and so, you know that "stats subject to change" is a fact of life for all items released for the game. Your argument, therefore, is disingenuous.
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    leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,368 Arc User
    kurtron wrote: »
    I will still argue that mentioning it once on a livestream (which many players aren't aware of) and then not again until after the changes are made (and upsetting many of your customers) is still not good business.
    I get it, Cryptic wants to make money, so putting something different and experimental in an expensive bundle makes sense. At the very least there should have been mention that the product may change somewhere in the description, both in the store and the blog.

    Not to pile on, but it is in the Terms of Service for the game, which you agree to everytime you play the game. They don't have to post it everytime they release something, they do it out of courtesy.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,395 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    kurtron wrote: »
    I will still argue that mentioning it once on a livestream (which many players aren't aware of) and then not again until after the changes are made (and upsetting many of your customers) is still not good business.
    I get it, Cryptic wants to make money, so putting something different and experimental in an expensive bundle makes sense. At the very least there should have been mention that the product may change somewhere in the description, both in the store and the blog.

    Not to pile on, but it is in the Terms of Service for the game, which you agree to everytime you play the game. They don't have to post it everytime they release something, they do it out of courtesy.
    You seem so surprised, what did you expect?
    We're thinking outside of that box that you checked
    The terms were presented in full to inspect
    You scrolled to the end just to get to "accept"


    - The Stupendium, "The Data Stream"
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    kurtronkurtron Member Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited August 2023
    (Flaming, trolling comments moderated out. - BMR)
    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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    xgamefreakzxgamefreakz Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited August 2023
    Hi, I hope this reaches the system developer Jonathan Herlache.
    The changes that were proposed by the blog that cryptic has put out on the maelstrom torpedo changes on Jul 31, 2023, are now on tribble to test.

    Many high-severity bugs are present as tested on the updated maelstrom on tribble. I have posted what I feel are further changes in balancing that are needed in this segment here while the bug technicalities are posted on the bug reporting section of the forum.
    For both important testing context to further changes that I feel is needed explained below, as well as to visit the bug report in the bug section for the new maelstrom issues, link to it is: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1271407/new-bugs-from-updated-maelstrom-torpedo-on-tribble

    The relevant information taken from the bug report for this:

    [ Firstly, this video shows the current way the mechanics of the conditions works for battleships and dreadnoughts: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1meXS_lKt0g-MI5AVChdYGkm0VCf5pc_O/view?usp=sharing (note, all the videos are in 4k if you need it to be sharper, needs download for that)
    Currently, the conditions are scanned upon launching the torpedo, as supposed to when the torpedo hits. In the first part of the video, my ship launches the maelstrom at 3 charges and applies a shield offline debuff after firing. The maelstrom did not do its conditional double damage even though the maelstrom hit the cube with no shields. In the second part of the video, both shield offline and “less than 50% hp” is applied after launching the maelstrom, by shooting the elachi dread after firing the torpedo and have its hp from above 50% be reduced to below 50% before the torpedo hits. The maelstrom hit for 400k as shown and is not its conditional damage even though it hit the dreadnought when it’s hp is under 50%. This understanding will be used later for further changes that I think are needed. ]

    For further changes to balances that I feel is needed, as explained earlier (explained from snippet above), the way the conditions are scanned for maelstrom against battleships and dreadnoughts I feel is still too punishing at the moment, by scanning when the torpedo are launched, instead of when the torpedo hits, and also down to individual hits; multiple hits of maelstrom (from the likes like torpedo high yield or torpedo spread, both of which are the mainstay way to launch the maelstrom, all do 4 hits each) all have the same conditions taken at launch that don’t change regardless if the condition has been met after the torpedo is fired.

    Initially when the blog was released describing the new proposed changes, I thought this might be an issue, but historically for these kinds of condition mechanics, its usually done on hit as supposed to on activation and would probably apply to the new changes too, that did not happen. Take for example this video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p4f1DZAv1lN3He3rFBZVNkP8-D_0GCsG/view?usp=sharing
    In the video, the starship trait advanced precision guided munitions from the Cabot gives your next torpedo hit upon activating a firing mode an extra kinetic damage. This damage is further increased if the target hit has less than 15% shield facing. As shown in the first part, the tooltip damage of the photon torpedo at 7.3k and the tooltip damage of the starship trait at 13.1k (around 1.8x) above 15% shield facing, and 26.2k (around 3.6x) under 15% shield facing. The damage done in the first part for the torpedo and the trait was 32k and 110k (around 3.4x) respectively. Since the transformer has no shield, it should always trigger the under 15% condition, which it did. In the 2nd part, the torpedo did 36k damage to the sphere and the trait did 112k damage to the sphere, which is its conditional damage, even though the shield offline applied in the 2nd part was done after the torpedo was launched; its condition is upon torpedo hit. Also to refresh, for torpedo hits itself against shields, condition is taken upon hit and not activation as seen in this: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lf1lsOPN4Ea7YaI0W8zT92fkla00qvpc/view?usp=sharing

    As seen in earlier test and can also be seen here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Eab_dfHZMsjjgb71UunUXQVaSTEYGVEc/view?usp=sharing
    , the condition taken on activation as supposed to on hit for battleships is I feel too punishing. Take for example, you slot the maelstrom on DEW builds, you face an enemy and you “fire all”, your maelstrom starts flying to the enemy, your energy weapons damage the shield facing to zero or near zero, of which at near zero, your torpedo could even at -75% damage, still deplete it and the remainder hits goes straight to hull (don’t forget torpedo spread and high yield 3 are 4 hits). But it won’t matter; the remaining maelstrom hits will still not do double damage because you’ve launched it when the shield facing is up even though torpedoes have travel time. Worse is that some enemies can regenerate some of their shield facing in a short time, so timing the torpedo fire, and having energy weapons to deplete a decent chunk of shield facing right as the torpedo travels and hits is a decent strategy, while at the moment, you are forced to only start firing maelstrom only after seeing its shields near zero or at zero for battleships, of which if it regenerates its shields while its flying towards it, even if it has “secured” its double damage condition, still faces reduced damage by shields. Then there is also the issue of shield penetration that you may also consider; most torpedo builds heavily rely on that instead of needing to deplete enemy shield facing. With torpedo boats going after as much passive shield regen and on some traits for quick burst of improved shield penetration, torpedo boats using maelstrom faces constant punishment of halve damage to battleships with maelstrom, even with 100% shield penetration. However, at foremost, the condition should be at least changed to on hit instead of on activation.

    Next the condition against dreadnoughts, because maelstrom torpedo is likely to be fired under either torpedo spread or high yield 3, both of which has multiple individual hits up to 4, the condition of double damage to dreadnoughts taken only upon activation instead of upon hit and to each individual hits I feel is also too punishing, this can be seen in this video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hJFXsnkf0CyvX4l5rd-AheJiBliAjJvA/view?usp=sharing .

    As seen in the video, multiple hits of torp spread 3, from the 2nd hit onwards, does not deal double damage even though hp of the dreadnought is under 50%. With similar issues as explained above, the torpedo’s damage should not have its damage predetermined on launch, and instead should be determined on hit and for each individual hit also. Otherwise, it becomes a scenario of watching the dreadnought hit right below 50% hp before immediately being as quick as possible to start firing it. Factoring reaction time and torpedo travel time and other factors, like the enemy being constantly under hail of fire, and also multiple player’s use of maelstroms on the same target, it’s very possible that, effectively, maelstrom’s high damage to dreadnought is only dealt when its well under 50% hp, which is too punishing to me. Note that dreadnoughts are a major portion of high HP targets in the game, which makes it the ideal targets for maelstrom’s playstyle. The option should be given to players to fire maelstrom before it reaches 50% hp in hopes that it will reach that hp value by the time it hit, and or that a portion of its 4 hits will gain the double damage boost. I feel that would be an efficient and reasonable compromise.

    In conclusion, the major bugs needs to be dealt with and the conditions for battleships and dreadnoughts need to be changed from activation to on hit, and to each individual hits. With all these issues dealt with, the maelstrom should be in an acceptable state.
    Post edited by xgamefreakz on
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    xgamefreakzxgamefreakz Member Posts: 75 Arc User
    edited August 2023
    I have re-tested the maelstrom post today's patch.

    The biggest issues that was bugged with the maelstrom seen on tribble has been fixed (issues 1 and 3 of the bug report), while the bug where theres no way to consistently trigger its conditional damage against transformers still remains.

    None of the proposed changes mentioned in the above post were implemented, resulting in all the issues mentioned above still being present. In its current state, the maelstrom is simply a glorified high damage weapon against frigates and cruisers while still being too punishing against battleships and dreadnoughts, which were pre-nerf, still the more suitable targets to use maelstrom on since they have higher HP.

    There's an overall efficiency in how the maelstrom is being applied to enemies from start to finish. The proposed changes mentioned above is meant to give a better efficiency against the higher HP enemies for the post nerfed maelstrom than what it currently is because, if its too hard to get its condition, then essentially its almost no different than still using a full nerfed maelstrom (don't forget, now its recharge is 25s per charge each, so if you "get the halved damage" when you should not/undeservingly, its essentially even worse than the last iteration). Why did battleships even got dragged in to the nerf in the first place when you have said the issue was bosses (which is mainly dreadnoughts)? If you play your game, then you know the majority of shield-offline sources are not exactly overwhelming in quantity and not applied quickly. Opening salvo has a very slow travel time, and tachyon net has a long caste time, and you still need to actually crit damage each enemy in it's net first before the shield actually goes down. Carrier-wave shield hack is instant, but only to single target. And how would people even know that if you activate maelstrom before you take the enemy shield's offline, that it would do halve damage no matter what to battleships? You can totally have the maelstrom hit a shield-offline battleship and people would think it got double damage and it won't because maelstrom was activated before the shield offline, just the activation, not the actual end result, as seen in my videos in the post before. Don't forget, passively shield penetration weapon fire effectively takes the full -50% nerf regardless.

    If you already have the mechanic thats applied on the agony redistributor (also seemingly bugged at the moment), where if you were to apply to the maelstrom, it would be dealing more damage as the HP value of the enemy dropped (and this needs to be checked for each maelstrom hit, not all 4), why did you not put this for dreadnoughts instead of what it current is now? This is the only weapon in the game IIRC where you have see the dreadnought has sub 50% HP before activating fire to get the buff. If you even activate it just at 52%, you get the full halve damage regardless. How many people even change the default UI to have the HP green bars appear on the enemy, or shift the enemy information icon closer to where they can see the enemy HP % easier? When it scales up to elite difficulty, its gets bad. If multiple people use the maelstrom against a boss that has say 10m hp. If 4 people fire maelstrom hy3 at the boss at 52%, all 16x hits of the maelstrom torpedo deserves to receive a -50% damage reduction instead of just the hits that were done above 50%?

    The first choice to nerf its damage by 50% while halving its reload speed was obviously wrong since it does the opposite of what the made for in the first place, which was to make a torpedo that can't be fast recharged, and taking damage from later and putting it all in front for tactical use. Very easy to see in elite difficulty. You then picked the path to do a "precise adjustment" instead of buffing all the HP values of bosses because its "easier". Its been quite a long time now since the first nerf to maelstrom. It still feels like its "quick fixes" implemented so far that isn't well tested and thought out, and it isn't good enough.

    Have you even seen how fast bosses can die in random advanced task force operations (RATFO)?
    Here take a look (no maelstrom): https://drive.google.com/file/d/12FfZFH_OrqAl1lECD6BvWTarTj9LIrHY/view?usp=drive_link
    Good luck trying to even see that the battleships had no shields (don't forget, that with all the stuff thats going on on screen, short of targeting the battleship and seeing the enemy information UI, you can't actually tell it has no shields), or that the dreadnought was under 50% HP before firing maelstrom.
    Here are the HP values (not including shields) of almost all the bosses in RATFO:

    swarm advanced vekrid hurq: 2.1m hp, 1m in normal
    tzenkethi dread in tzenkethi front: 1.7m hp
    tactical cube in ISA (infected the conduit adv): 8m hp
    HSA (hive onslaught adv) tactical cube: 1.7m
    HSA unimatrix: 3.4m
    HSA queen: 3.4m
    Cure found advanced assimilated carrier: 1.7m
    KSA (khitomer vortex adv) donatra valdore: 5.1m
    borg disconnected advanced voth dread: 3.4m
    borg disconnected advanced undine dread: 1.7m
    borg disconnected advanced queen: 3.8m
    vault ensnared advanced named tarantula dread: 2.2m
    vault ensared advanced tarantula: 1.7m
    gateway to grethor iconion dreadnoyght: 2.2m
    counterpoint advanced temporal dread 1.7m
    counterpoint advanced iss venture 1.7m

    You can tell, which are the bosses getting "one-shotted" and which aren't (pretty much the bosses thats at 1.7m hp). You can also see why most of the borg queues are more enjoyable and why its more popular. In the first place, you have a queue like hive onslaught advanced where you have so many 1.7m enemies right at the start (the npc Yorktown barely does anything to tank and take threat nor to deal damage), you already have bosses in the 5m+ like in ISA, where its the most popular queue. So the idea that some people are saying where if you raise the HP value of other bosses it would make it far too hard for people that are less geared, makes no sense. If anything, what seems "easy" now is to rather just go in and double the HP value of all the 1.7m-2.2m bosses and change the maelstrom to how it was at launch.

    Overall, it has been over a month and a half since the first nerf to maelstrom. Agony redistributor is still seemingly bugged (in a good way (https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1271345/agony-redistributor-issues-post-patch)? But then nobody wants to use it in runs since thats where its most useful until it would seem that it's not going to get changed yet again for fear of runs being removed once if it gets changed), webspinner 50% cat 2 conditional buff tested fine, but its base damage is still too low from what it once was. It has been disappointing so far. Seems like you may have to add a random elite TFO option sooner or later, you need to move the highly geared players into their suitable queue, and perhaps this could have been avoided entirely in the first place.

    Edit: Basically, you need to go and change the conditions for both battleships and dreadnoughts from scanning upon activation to scanning upon hit, and scanning again per each hit for multiple hits like HY3. It makes a huge difference.
    Post edited by xgamefreakz on
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    vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,886 Arc User
    oddly enough, I'm using it in a Torp build, added 2 Quantum projectile tac consoles and no appreciable boost to damage.. Isn't the Maelstrom a Quantum torpedo?
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