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LET'S TALK ABOUT THE MAELSTROM
baddmoonrizin
Member Posts: 11,028 Community Moderator
The Maelstrom torpedo has gone through some changes of late. Jonathan Herlache talks about the why of those changes, and what the future holds.
https://www.playstartrekonline.com/en/news/article/11550263
https://www.playstartrekonline.com/en/news/article/11550263
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We care about the game and when money is spent and items changed, we can feel cheated. Something like this can go a long way to avoid upsetting the game community.
It'll still happen, though, but perhaps not quite so much?
I'm looking forward to where this goes. For one, it seems the way most reasonable way to solve the Maelstrom's problems. I'm completely satisfied with the process here, even if it takes a bit to get the Maelstrom right (as it might not get to an optimal state with just one go at this).
Secondly, if this is successful then it might be worth thinking about conditional effects for future weapons (leaning into them from inception). Ie. buffs or triggered effects to apply to mobs or bosses without affecting the other that would make for more situational weapons/build choices. Ex. dual cannons with heavier AOE debuffs/damage on sub-battlecruisers, but little to no bonus against battlecruisers+. Or weapons with different kinds of buffs/debuffs against different enemy categories. There's a lot of focus here on the top end of the population and keeping that from not-breaking the game, but these kinds of effects could also help newer players struggling against a certain kind of enemy (and being given a reasonably tool to help with that gameplay frustration). Ie. go for a more Elden Ring-style approach to our murder sticks, where ingenuity is rewarded slightly more than just amassing the stock toolkit of cat2/haste/crit buffs.
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With that said, this is all something that should have been communicated well in advance, as opposed to after the fact (and after a lot of heat), and especially so when we're talking an exclusive feature from an expensive bundle.
Note to Cryptic: after the nerfs over the last year, it's probably safe to say consumer trust is pretty low here.
Maybe next time you decide to play around with experimental features, don't first release it for a lot of money? It's really not a good look.
...oh yea, and bring back the Klingon War missions!
The complication is that a new feature also breeds a lot of excitement and if that can be pointed at a major item for sales all the better. It's not an absolute requirement but the incentives for Cryptic per 1) give players fun things and 2) see returns for those things (per keeping the game going, income improving so hopefully STO remains a priority for the company in some form. Leaving money on the table doesn't help the argument that STO needs move company investment). See. Legendary ships and the 10th anniversary bundle. Rarely do these things go sideways. Take the Cyclone. It's not bringing any new features and yet went sideways. Last major controversy from systems team: nerfing infiltrator by fixing a stacking bug, which was not tied to ANY modern content. There's no pattern to these experiments and drawing any broad conclusions from Maelstrom is not going to lead to an actionable argument.
Basically anytime Cryptic tries anything new there's some probability it won't work. Putting that in an expensive bundle or an event freebie won't change the optics. Players tend to react badly to major nerfs wherever that happens, such as lower tier ships like the Adamant's agony redistributor. What this so much isn't about the optics of needing to pull back on expensive items, but wanting big new things to come on less expensive stuff and using the Maelstrom as an excuse, as it were, to say "I want this stuff to be introduced more cheaply" (which is a fine though independent point to make). Here, the Maelstrom's bundle is justified on many points other than this one thing. See. the actual ships of the legendary bundle, plus service unlocks. The torpedo was a complete freebie on top of existing practice, legendary ships generally don't come with any unique gear (they bundle old gear and only introduce a new trait and hull variant). The Maelstrom is also the SECOND bit of extremely bonus legendary ship gear introduced here. See. spec-variant fighter squadrons, which have not had any major issues. And given the price of the bundle, buying it JUST for the Maelstrom would have been unwise. No exclusive perk beyond RNG ships in anniversary bundles or the sum of the LTS should be driving purchases, they don't have the economic power over the base contents (which is an argument for doing away with them and selling each as stand-alone buys as well, but that's another thread).
Broadly, the *risk* to optics for a worst case happening (relatively rare, unable to predict for any new mechanic) are never going to wholly gain-say the basic dynamic of "new thing exciting, let's capitalize on that for its first release." Monetized ships have debuted most new gear types and features. For example: an event ship never introduced a specialization mechanic. Those all first hit the game through big bundles, because Cryptic wanted to capitalize on the novelty as much as they could as a natural part of their business (introduce the big bundle two releases down from the point of introduction and the allure will have greatly waned by then).
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YES it hit hard... but 90 seconds is a LONG time to not fire a weapon. It also meant for say a torp boat having to use 100% manual fire mode on all your weapons. To fire it properly buffed there was no way to auto fire anymore.
So you had to sit at least 1 weapon hardpoint out essentially for all but 1 or 2 shots in a most TFO content... maybe you could fire it 4 or 5 times in some E mode content. Not only that you also had to go manual mode. Which is a lot more work then just throwing things on auto and pointing your ships nose at things while you mash buttons.
It wasn't broken. Did it blow some TFO big bads up in 5-10s... sure. So what you sat out millions on DPS for one big pop that was the entire point... and you know what it was FUN. It also played more like star trek if you wanted to run 1 torp on a energy ship. Even on a torp boat it felt more like trek as you where picking and choosing your shots more.
That is my feedback. You got it right the first time. So what if people could make it do 5-8m every 90s. You also traded a ton of overall DPS from not just autoing and spamming some other torp. I mean is it more broken then being able to fire a Time device every 8s... or a Neutronic torp every 6s ect with traits? As far as normal and advance mode bosses dying fast... heck anyone can load a half way decent overload or surgical build and pop them in one round of fire anyway. I mean I have a few surgical ships that hit for 200-250k essentially every single shot... on a 7 weapon ship that is what 1.75m dmg instantly as well... only you don't have to wait no 90s to do it. With traits and all the buff items in game you can fly around doing 200-250k per shot 100% of the time. How is that not broken but a 90s big pop torp is ? ? ?
This was exciting fun and not broken. I don't think a bunch of * on the weapon is a great plan. You don't want some bosses to drop instantly then FIX the bosses.
Here are some honest serious ideas if you want to "FIX" the issue.
DON'T Mess with the best new weapon added in a decade. Instead boff the bosses thusly as it fixes this issue WITH all builds.
- Give all "boss" level NPCs (including gateways ect) massive resistance to ALL dmg that drops over time. Give all the boss level stuff +1000 all dmg resist when they first pop up, and drop it by 100 every 10s. EASY fix that fixes the one shot instant boss kills form 1001 different builds that kill just as fast as the Mael.
- Give bosses sliding hit point amounts based on how long it takes to summon them. This won't work on all content but if you have a big Assimilated carrier or shim show up at the end... adjust the HP amount based on the map timer. Get to the boss in 30s give it something crazy like 100m hit points. It takes you 8m to get to the big boss, summon it with A LOT less.
- Give some bosses "smarter" mechanics. Have them throw up an immunity shield if they take 25% of their HP in dmg in 1s. Bit hit oh no it went immune for 10s. Cause the big bad boss has the same save buttons we do. lol
Perhaps have a method introduced for all normal content space and ground where the amount of damage can only hit a damage threshold per second per player? The key there would be finding the sweet spot, but that'd fix a lot of complaints about endeavors such as the v-rex. The post above with suggestions on buffing bosses is absolutely great ideas as well!
As someone who came here from a game that is massively unbalanced and beyond expensive, I'm grateful for all the content and events and free to play material here. Thank you!
I disagree with this whole-heartedly. Those kinds of changes aim to punish players for building/playing well than to reward them. Why put effort into something if the boss just spawns tougher. That's not the game many would want to play in, I can assure you.
Changes need to happen, encounters need to better designed. No dispute on that, but not those changes.
Personally, although it clearly did do less damage after the recent change, I thought it was still fine and a good addition to my torp builds. During levelling and at endgame, it was still a good weapon to choose - what has been described dramatically as 'massive nerfs' weren't all that impactful in that regard. The damage was over the top initially anyway, so a correction to that wasn't that bad and, indeed, necessary to promote healthy gameplay.
That being said, I'm fine with the new, upcoming changes. I'll keep using the weapon anyway, regardless of how it performs, even if it's just because of their nice colour that mixes nicely with the red, green, yellow and purple of my L-Akira's and Luna's other torpedoes
Is this correct? I didn't see any changes to other powers in the last patch notes? Did I miss something?
Well the entire point of the mael was to DELAY gratification. It was to hold one weapon for a big boom. It seems the developers don't actually want us using that big boom on the bosses. Or probably better put other players dislike other players using their big boom on the boss. I guess they feel left out when the big boss at the end dies by anothers hand. lol
The point is we need ways to make the bosses not insta splod, if that is Cryptics goal. The Meal WAS the most trek like weapon we have gotten every in this game. Its a bit sad if the in response to some player QQ the devs basically turn it into just another torpedo and abandon the idea all together.
We also have a serious problem with uber min maxed builds of ALL flavors essentially doing the same. No one is saying HEY nerf that Discovery beam, Terran beam... or DHC or Surgical or Particle Manipulator... or the 101 other traits and items that allow for 1m DPS builds. As the standard player also is using that stuff. Mael is easy to point at and say NERF IT... cause lets face it most people don't run torp boats and even those that do most are not really wanting a manual mode game play style.
I don't think there is anything wrong with giving the TFO big bosses some form of protection from insta vape.
It doesn't matter what form that takes... spike protection with immunity shields, Variable hit points (and ya I like that give people a challenge, you clear that Infected in 30s here enjoy your 100m HP tac cube that will still take you a min or two to chew up... lets face it that is still only 30s of survival vs a team with 2 1m dps builds on it) Also for what it is worth Cryptic at one time was trying to do versions of what I am suggesting. The Shim in Khitomer Vortex cloaks when people get too close (which used to seriously increase dmg... skill tree changes have made that not really the case), my point being Cryptic added that so people wouldn't park 0.5k of the thing and end it in one volley of cannon fire. It supposed to cloak up when you get into optimal high dmg range. They gave the Tzenkathi shields that where stupid hard everywhere but head on... and then power creeped a ton of shield pen to the point where we all just kill me though their super shields anyway. Its time to update mechanics.
Anyway my point was simple. The Mael is not alone. Its not even the most kill kill fastest of the fast options to insta vape bosses. The game has an issue with bosses being paper in general. Its time to fix the problem at the root... not go after the low hanging fruit.
I want to actually see MORE Mael like torpedo's added to the game... not see it just turn into another torp. The nerfed version is no better and is actually a lot worse then the best torps we already had. The old version wasn't even actually better it was just different, more fun and more Star Trek like. If it parsed better it was only because people where piloting with some more thought and picking when it was worth popping your 90s torpedo. I would love to see a Tricobalt version in the future, I would also love to see some interesting Chroniton and Transphasic versions with fantastic visuals. This is the closes we have gotten to a true trek pew pew pew TORP movie like yet viable build option yet. It would be a shame for the devs to essentially abandon it because a few people think it does to much KILL KILL dmg on Normal or Advance mode.
I asked about the appetite for new Maelstrom torpedoes tonight and ten forward and Jonathan says that they're still on the horizon. Condition: need to get the quantum Maelstrom right before they move on. If upcoming update lands (currently with QA) then they can get moving on more new types. But it might take another couple balance passes to get there. Maelstrom isn't a one and done format, Jonathan wants it to be a new torpedo type to continue playing with.
Another two priority items on his plate are updates to shield effects and difficulty, so underlying issues here should also be receiving some attention.
(Though I think they can make immediate headway just by making elite a viable queuing option with an RTFO, with at least a partial list of higher-success-rate TFOs that cover each type of advance console material. Big issue here is players queuing lower than their gear because advanced is actually available, unlike elite whose most difficult aspect is just finding a game. STO doesn't leverage what content it already has to sort the population according to their place on the difficulty curve, and fixing that would probably help mitigate the worst impacts of over-powered players and one-shot kills while also creating more appetite for more advanced consoles.)
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It just feels icky. now, I'm sure, again there are probably terms burred in the TOS that they can do this and they can but that does not make it feel any less icky and does not fill me with consumer confidence to buy anything else in the future from the store. This feels like something EA or Activation would do. Release something new, sell it like gang-busters, then nerf the TRIBBLE out of it, then release the new hotness. repeat.
Let's be honest, there's no cost valuation on the planet that reasonably gets the legendary Akira/Mogai bundle to be JUST about the Maelstrom. That's pretty dismissive to fans of those ships, explicitly assuming they didn't exist in quantity (it's all about Maelstrom), all to inflate the imperative for some post-hoc pearl clutching over a balance pass for a new type of weapon. "Becoming the new meta" is no excuse either because by the time the Maelstrom was having its nerf-demanding impact the introductory sale was likely over (from the timing suggested on Ten Forward). This wasn't an instantaneous thing, it took time for scary numbers to start showing up. So not only are people buying the bundle "just" for the ships, but doing so with increasing probability of the pack being at its maximum price.
This is a wholly unreasonable proposition assumed to make a balance pass against something becoming too powerful into a bad thing. Remember power creep complaints? I remember power creep complaints. The consensus there is that we don't want Cryptic selling meta-breaking content in high-end bundles (especially) because that presents some predatory dynamics regarding the relevancy of older gear and the cost of keeping up with the high end (to the tune of 12000 zen for a single weapon. Yeah, that dynamic is worth trying to install in the game. Care to guess how the community is likely to respond if Cryptic ever actually sold one new gear piece at legendary bundle prices? It could be the largest dumpster fire yet seen.) New weapons shouldn't knock everything else in the class off the table for a given job, there should always be a reasonable set of cost-benefit trade-offs in order to make the RPG of this game worth a damn rather than simplifying build theory to "just buy the new hotness and you don't have to dedicate more than three braincells to putting together a build from there." Ie. Maelstrom should be good, but not a new meta by itself. It's one weapon.
If you're taking this point as a consumer confidence thing, then your money probably wasn't going to reach Cryptic for long anyway as you're actively looking for a reason/excuse to check out. The timing is just finding an event with the right assumed optics. Cryptic very rarely does big nerfs for popular new gear as the last major controversy with any balance update was the nerf to the the Reman infiltrator boff (which got reverted). That's not new content by any definition other than *geologic*. And considering how much content Cryptic releases each year (every ship, two major gameplay items each, plus accessory event/lock box content) would you care to calculate the exact probability that something actually gets nerfed after release? It's low, VERY low. To hold it as a defining pattern is a textbook case of confirmation bias, assuming a pattern only from confirming events sans context for where it doesn't hold. Take the spec-type shuttles that came with these ships. Were they deliberately overpowered then scaled back? Hell no. Ship traits? Nope. What about the 13th anniversary bundle ships? Nope, Hydra had a bug fix affecting its beams but to clutch pearls over that is explicitly demanding that the devs not do their jobs. Seneca? Not an issue. Theseus? Nope. Excelsior II? The list goes on and is accompanied by BUFFS to content as well as nerfing balance tweaks while keeping meta staples (ex. DPRM and DOMINO) un-nerfed. The last time we had something like this happen was the Adamant's console, so you can put the odds as 2 divided by the total number of ships Cryptic's released since Feb. 2022 which works out to a probability of ~0.05 (which is generously inflated by setting the starting point by the event being calculated for) if just considering new ship consoles, half that with both consoles and traits which can both render positive examples for the assumed dynamic, and significantly less than half if all new gear is considered.
Basically, Maelstrom's nerf is just trying to tune a brand new weapon class to do an intended job but not so it overwrites the game. They went too far in nerfing it (see. impetus for this blog) but to hold this as EA style behavior when the blog is laying out a considerate development process is a boy-who-cried-wolf scenario. The systems team is RE-BUFFING the torpedo with this change (your post seems predicated on the initial nerf only...), using conditional modifiers on damage by target rather than a flat damage reduction as was in the first Maelstrom nerf. Jonathan is furthermore doing this so they can start on other types of maelstrom torpedoes so the weapon class isn't just garnish on a macro-transaction, getting the quantum variant in a good place before doing so. Which is exactly what we should want from the systems team. Do due diligence rather than flinging power at the game with no consideration for how it affects it out of a misguided attempt to inflate sales, it's explicitly laid out here. He's also doing it (per Ten Forward) in addition to looking at underlying issues that contributed to the actionable problems with Maelstrom (difficulty and shields). So again, all around good work here.
It's important to emphasize that because if Cryptic is doing positive things with care and consideration, that needs to be minimally applauded, not met with the same old consumer grievance memes. Because otherwise there's no resolution to our feedback. If whining happens regardless of what they do, contorting events to fit a singular narrative, why should the devs bother in the first place? Why take significant issues as pressing if they're standing next to complaints that don't seem to relate at all to the update being made? Real signals are lost in the noise. We are accountable to our opinions, and should take care in that (because we've already seen what happens to discussion and player-dev communication when there isn't that accountability on other platforms).
Notable missions: Apex [AEI], Gemini [SSF], Trident [AEI], Evolution's Smile [SSF], Transcendence
Looking for something new to play? I've started building Foundry missions again in visual novel form!
First of all, that's a lot, so, lets me summarise.
A) The Maelstrom torpedo was too powerful after its release, and it was necessary to nerf it in order to balance the game.
- Yeah, I agree for the most part anyway. I generally agree with the reasoning it was done, and how its been nerfed, then re-buffed and their methodology for doing so and to see that laid out so concisely was honestly refreshing and I would like to see more of it going forward.
- This one, I think we'll have to file under "We'll see", i would agree with you under previous modus operandi nerfs are rare for new content. but, this is now a precedent. this is not a fictional scenario, this has happened now. and neither you nor I have a crystal ball or an line into Cryptic's Business daddy. only time will tell if this stays a rare event or becomes the new normal.
C) The nerf to the Maelstrom torpedo is not an attempt to inflate sales of the legendary Akira/Mogai bundle.
- Do I think that? No. Well, Kinda? I remember at the time of the release of that pack, they directly tied the 2-piece console set bonus from the event reward to items in the Legendary Pack and giving it some side eye then. I LOVE the Akira, its my favourite ship in Trek next to the Refit-Connie. Do I personally think it makes sense for someone to buy an expensive Legendary pack JUST for a Torpedo? No. not really, but I can absolutely assure you people have, do and will continue to do so regardless of if it makes any sense to you or I. in the same way people pay Billions of EC or Hundreds of $$ for the DPRM but it happens and that makes no more or less sense. so do I think it was a deliberate attempt to inflate sales of the bundle? No for the most part but that's not really relevant because intentional or not, it did make those sales.
I do think the Maelstrom should have been more extensively tested before release either on the private dev shard behind closed doors, or in Tribble publicly to get them the feedback they needed and if they still weren't sure about it, it should have been on an event ship/event reward or mission reward, not in a Legendary Pack. You nerf an event reward, it happens people are not going to be too mad about it, it cost you nothing in the first place. when you buy something in the C-Store, even as part of a pack, there is an expectation that the thing you bought with real money will remain the thing you bought. Incidentally this is a thing that other game with the boats and the one with the tanks is also running into, where they have sold ridiculously overpowered premium units and they can't nerf them because people spent upwards of like $80 on one specifically because it was overpowered. As someone pointed out above though, I'm guessing someone did the numbers expected that bundle to sell like hot cakes, and so that would have been leaving money on the table.
D) 'then your money probably wasn't going to reach Cryptic for long anyway as you're actively looking for a reason/excuse to check out.'
I like to think I've been reasonable so far, I am Pro-Consumer. Consumer trust is easy to lose and hard to get back. but allow me to be Blunt here: - You have zero idea or knowledge of what I have or have not bought, or plan to or not plan to buy or spend my money on in STO now or in the future. I don't spend a lot. but I don't spend nothing either. the game entertains me and I am willing to put some money on the table for that. but I won't get into the gamble boxes either.
D) It is important to give Cryptic positive feedback when they do things right, so that they are encouraged to continue making good decisions.
Yeah. That's fair. I wholeheartedly agree.
It was relatively easy to do this, or at least knock off a few dozen percentage points with one volley. Even on fresh toons that didn't have end-game gear or weren't specced for torpedo builds at all.
(Selective quoting for emphasis)
Thank you for pointing this out.
It's easy to complain about bait-and-switch tactics - but without the switch and only baiting, things would likely be much, much worse.
Based on (besides the Advanced consoles) the Ten Forward-threads I've seen that had input from Jonathan in them, he has a pretty good understanding of what new toys should do: open up new ways of gameplay, without rendering a lot of previously existing stuff obsolete.
And that is what the Maelstrom's corrections are all about.
People might complain that it's become no better than any other torp or that their purchase has been rendered useless (1), but should we even want one weapon to clearly outperform all other, similar weapons in many ways? I don't think that should be the goal - because indeed, it would mean that the most viable way of playing the game quickly became a matter of simply emptying your wallet and buying the latest toy, every time a new one is developed. Now that would indeed be predatory behaviour and much worse than 'baiting-and-switching'. And it would have the same, or likely an even worse outcome - since the next toy is going to render the previously bought one useless anyway, but also and increasingly all other stuff that came before it.
Imagine if they released a torpedo that can easily do over 1 million damage and keep things that way. And then release a new torpedo the week after that deals 2 million damage, without having the possibility to ever revise anything because they might get accused of 'bait-and-switch' tactics - how does that help anyone in the end? It won't make the game more enjoyable in the long run, that's for sure.
Balance is needed, to ensure that
A. Other things retain their value as well
B. Other players can keep playing the game, instead of merely watching how someone else blows up everything with the latest +100 dollar toy.
A few players' new toy isn't more important than all the other players(' stuff) combined.
(1) Which wasn't even true after the 'massive nerf' and before the latest buff, but anyway.