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Power creep, Instakills and 30 second T.F.O.'s

ryjokelryjokel Member Posts: 32 Arc User
So, i took part in yet another 30 second Advanced Infected:The Conduit today. Does anyone remember that this TFO has a 15 minute timer ?

I can remember when content was reasonably challenging, and generally took the concerted effort of a reasonably knowledgeable team to perform successfully. Usually pushing the timer right up to the limit. It used to be fun and exciting. Even if some of the team did'nt know what to do, you just put in a little more effort and carried as much as you could. A team map was professionally hammered out and a pug map was 50/50 but still fun.

Now it's 30 seconds-ish. Maybe longer if you're lucky. By "lucky" i mean that you might get to actually "play" the TFO, as opposed to watching someone solo the map in 30 seconds or less.

Too many people putting out too much damage too quickly.

It's been getting worse for some time now, but i feel it was about the time when the Vaadwaur Miracle Worker Juggernaut and the Kelvin Vengeance Intel Dreadnought Cruiser were being combined with Aux2Batt builds. So 2014 to 2018 ish. It was hilaroius and awe inspiring, at first, back when it happened maybe 1 out of 5 maps. Now it seems to be be 1 out of 5 where it does'nt happen.

These TFO's/STF's are'nt really made to be soloed are they ? I though they were team activities. The only insurance against instakilled TFO's now is a pre-made group, timezones permitting. I'm assuming the Elite TFO queues were added to cater for the "Elite" Min/Max DPS crowd. If so, why are they blasting the skybox textures out of the Advanced queues ?. And everything else that moves for that matter.

There did come a point when i wondered if anyone is actually still here to play the game anymore. Are there some people here just to grind out enough resources to be able to instakill everything an instant quicker ?. I mean, racing in and instantly killing everything in sight before anyone has a chance to get in a shot or two is basically ruining the game for anyone else in the instance. I'm concerned some folks might be doing it deliberately, or not.

I've heard it said way too many times, that people should get better gear, get better ships, set up your captain and ship in just the right way in order to instakill everything, just to be able to play the game. I think that more people doing more damage is just making the problem worse. Get more power, get more speed, Git Gud, or some such toxicity.

You can't shoot at targets that are exploding as they are spawning in. Go to any space battlezone and just watch the "Great Turkey Shoot" at the end of each cycle. You can watch the engine trails of many explosions warping in. I can barely identify what i'm shooting at these days, they all look like explosions with engine trails. Ground maps are just as bad, but i don't do much ground stuff outside of endeavours or new alts.
I mean, if the enemy ships are exploding before they even spawn in properly, is there any reason for them to be there at all ?. Because if you can't instakill them before someone else instakills them, then they may as well not even be there, and any non-instakiller players have no reason to hang around if there is nothing to shoot at.

I would like to think this is still a "multiplayer" game, right ?.

A "Massively Multiplayer Online" game perhaps ?.

As opposed to a very big single player game for people with enough free time to build an instakill machine that has the added ability to remove all challenge and skill, while blocking entry to any new or casual players who might have jobs, families or mortgages to support. Just because someone can't live the game, does that mean they can't play it ?

Is this a game or a career ?.

I can put out a decent level of damage on my main characters, enough for me to notice that i'm doing a whole lot more than i used to be able to, probably more than i need to. But enough to hold my own.

I remember when everyone had a chance to join in on the fun and partake in the available activities. I've got some alts with t5 and F2P builds running on minimal stats, just so i can actually play like i did when i started 10 or 12 years ago. You know, back when things took more than one or two volleys to kill.

Now, it seems to be "Instakills or Nothing". It's now about who is the fastest, who can get there the quickest, and kill it all before anyone else. Where did the multiplayer aspect go ? When did PVE become PVP ?. Is this a racing game now ?

I get it though, i've put in years of time, effort and money, collected almost everything that opens and shuts, just to be able to plough through waves of mobs more efficiently, and i'm getting closer be being yet another "Instakiller", but not quite yet. I does'nt sit right with me. I don't ever want to be that guy who swoops in and instakills absolutely everything that ever was, and spoils the fun for other players just because i can. It just makes me look and feel like a clattering buttock. This is still a multiplayer game right ?

Does having fun mean i need to take that fun from someone else ? Apparently some folks just don't have that level of self control. I understand completely, but the game mechanics need to be adjusted to account for the extremes.


I don't think encouraging players to get more speed and/or damage is the answer, you can't shoot something that's already gone. And the fact that new players have way too far to go in order to catch up with the current meta.

I don't think that adding more health to enemies is the answer either, that just makes it unnecessarily harder for new or casual players.

I would like to think that maybe limiting or reducing the maximum damage output that players can achieve, (a damage ceiling) might be part of a possible solution to taming the "instakill" problem. People are already doing more than enough damage individually let alone collectively, there needs to be a limit.


Just some thoughts that i had while i thoroughly enjoyed getting my lvl 40 Hegh'ta thrashed out from under me in the in the Badlands.



A belated P.S.

Just to be clear.

I don't expect anything to change as a result of this thread.
I would like something to change, but considering how long this has been an issue, i would be pleasantly surprised if anything did change.

I started this thread here because this is, after all, the offical Star Trek Online Forums, and i would assume that this is the appropriate place to voice these kinds of concerns in the hopes that the game developers and management responsible for game changes might eventually stumble in here and find it. Or not, as the case may be.

And just maybe after all the hoohaa and noisey kerfuffle surounding this long running and long winded topic, that someone with enough passion remaining for this aging but still enjoyable game, might think about taking even half a step towards maybe thinking about a possible remedy or stop gap for this age old, well worn and tired old subject.

Thanks for reading.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments

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    doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 1,200 Arc User
    The solution is RANDOM ELITE TFO's. People would play them instead if they would be there. But "RANDOM" does reward too nicely so you don't want to sign up for an TFO without using the RANDOM Queue. We need random ELITE TFO's and maybe with that a gear check. So people don't try to leech on RANDOM's like they do on ADVANCED. You complain they are to quick, I complain that I encounter people who barely would qualify for NORMAL TFO's.

    Also you can avoid all that if you find people to play with together and sign up together. A lot of people think this is a single player game and the way they want to play is the right way. Cryptic will do nothing about power creep because a) Its to late for that, b) It makes the money. If Advanced is to fast I suggest you go and play on normal you probably will not find those one shot wonders there.

    The solution to the power creep is higher difficulty to take advantage of situation. We got Elite difficulty in the game lets use it and make it random.
    C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
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    tribbulatertribbulater Member Posts: 292 Arc User
    edited March 2023
    You're playing an ancient TFO that hasn't changed substantially through years of power creep. It's one of the primary testing grounds for speed runs and max-DPS builds. It's the one everyone runs because it pays out the fastest. So complaining that the TFO is "over too fast" is a bit disingenuous.

    I've also played Conduit many times and it's rare that it's over that fast, although you do indeed need to know where to go and what to shoot in order to get some damage in.

    Cryptic sells power creep because power creep is what players are willing to fork over cash for (just like most F2P games). If you don't want to compete against the max-DPSers, don't play the specific TFO the max-DPSers use to demonstrate or test their builds.

    Plenty of TFOs have multiple phases, built in timers, widely separated spawns etc. if you want a less rushed experience.
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    live8evillive8evil Member Posts: 129 Arc User
    I can't really find words about this situation. So better players are "bad" now? It's not worth to invest time and skill to get to the same level, it's better to write long posts on the forum instead? I'm trying to be polite as possible, but i fear i will fail, if i continue... Git gud.
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    husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,601 Arc User
    I'm all for random elite mode. I think frankly all the borg STFs could use a bump... but be careful what you wish for there. I wouldn't want the Barbie and new player ships that show up in that one to be punished. I don't think we want anyone to feel like they can never leave normal mode either. When there are 3 difficulty settings no one wants to feel like they have to remain in the kid difficulty mode.

    To be frank. I'm not sure why it would bother you. As long as you can get some dmg in and not get a leaver penalty. Its not like we haven't all completed that map thousands of times by now. In out, re que get a map a few years newer that will have a 20 min timer.
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    whistlerdavidwhistlerdavid Member Posts: 418 Arc User
    edited March 2023
    i do love all are new toys. that being said i do miss when the Borg were extremely hard. i remember when the red alerts there always just one or two that were blasting them away. now a half decent build can do the same.
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    krisxr400krisxr400 Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    I tuned down my load outs probably two years ago for ground and space for the exact reasons the OP stated. It's not fun for the team or myself to able to press a "i win" button. I do remember when tfo/stf's were a team effort and way more fun to play. I also remember the fleet star base tfo's that haven't been played in like 4 yrs now. Ya que up for one of those and it never launches.

    I think endeavors really pushed the power creep waaay over the top. For each stat endeavors add to, its like running 10 free invisible consoles for that one stat and an invisible skill tree. Consoles and skills used to be the way to change your ships dynamics to suit what your game play goal was. Now with endeavors you just slot what ever console you want, no synergies, no thought at all really to load outs, run whatever skills you want and you're wiping the enemies up.

    As for the other posters saying find some like minded friends and run tfo's, well alot of players can't be on at the same time, and my friends list evaporated after victory is life, guess why. When I do try to strike up a conversation with the random player i either get crickets, or some remark that certainly isn't "like minded". The trouble isn't with "my friends" it's with the current state of the game.

    I am in full support of a major overhaul of any system in game to quell the rampant power creep. To balance the game back to where it was fun to play (teamwork), and difficult enough to pop the power creep.
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    live8evillive8evil Member Posts: 129 Arc User
    edited March 2023
    No, I didn't misunderstood anything, because there is NO problem. Beside a few borg TFOs, the mission play time is usualy over 10 minutes, because they're timed. Don't whine about a no-problem and let us have at least a few maps without a artificaly placed timers (which take ridiculously long, probably thanks to players who complained about mission being to fast in the first place). So, you wan't a mission that takes a long time? Well my friend, since you clearly don't play much TFO, let me tell you about Azure nebula rescue, Borg disconnected, storming the spire, every new terran TFO... is that enough? Or do you wanna destroy those lonely 3 borg maps, which people use for performance benchmark? Can you just NOT? Thanks.

    edit: git gud
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    realdarklordrealdarklord Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    I agree with valoreah here.
    Having a power-creep build does certainly not make you a "better" player.
    I've tried this once and it was terribly boring - and I got nowhere near 600k DPS before I stopped. Only doing Space-barbie builds since. That's much more fun.
    When Borg-cubes die within seconds, you should now that something is wrong with game-balance and with your build.
    This isn't the goal here, and it is a massive annoyance to everyone who gets teamed up with a powercreep in random TFOs. I even got AFK-penalties on TFQs where a powercreep killed everything before I could even get into fiering-range.

    The solution would be a cap on stats based on difficulty, so the game remains challenging. Only Elite-difficulty would remain uncapped, there you can play with your build, but powercreep it has no place in Advanced or Normal. It's ruining the game for your teammates.
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    fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,902 Arc User
    live8evil wrote: »
    No, I didn't misunderstood anything, because there is NO problem. Beside a few borg TFOs, the mission play time is usualy over 10 minutes, because they're timed. Don't whine about a no-problem and let us have at least a few maps without a artificaly placed timers (which take ridiculously long, probably thanks to players who complained about mission being to fast in the first place). So, you wan't a mission that takes a long time? Well my friend, since you clearly don't play much TFO, let me tell you about Azure nebula rescue, Borg disconnected, storming the spire, every new terran TFO... is that enough? Or do you wanna destroy those lonely 3 borg maps, which people use for performance benchmark? Can you just NOT? Thanks.

    edit: git gud

    You're right, mostly. The problem only exists in a handful of missions (besides the ones you mention, Crystalline Entity, Fleet Alert, Undine assault and a few others). Those missions reward making investments in your build. More powerful build, faster completion. That's how things should be, not spending an x amount of time in a mission just because, for no good reason at all.

    We need more missions without set durations. In my opinion.

    Until then, there's little need to worry about power creep. It's easily avoidable by playing missions where it doesn't matter, because nothing matters in those missions.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.

    [6/12 9:59][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 24097 (13711) Physical Damage(Critical) to Elite Tactical Drone
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    live8evillive8evil Member Posts: 129 Arc User
    edited March 2023
    These suggestions wen't from annoying to bizzare and damaging to the entire game.

    Edit: look guys, i'm sure you mean it good in your own way, but you're basicaly complaining about other players doing more damage, than you. It's time fore some inner reflection and to rediscover the "normal" mode again.
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    realdarklordrealdarklord Member Posts: 101 Arc User
    live8evil wrote: »
    So, you wan't a mission that takes a long time? Well my friend, since you clearly don't play much TFO, let me tell you about Azure nebula rescue, Borg disconnected, storming the spire, every new terran TFO... is that enough? Or do you wanna destroy those lonely 3 borg maps, which people use for performance benchmark? Can you just NOT? Thanks.

    You do realize that most people play random, don't you?
    We don't get to choose the map. All we get to choose is the difficulty, so you just take your benchmark testing to Elite where it belongs? Thank you.

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    live8evillive8evil Member Posts: 129 Arc User
    edited March 2023
    live8evil wrote: »
    It's time fore some inner reflection and to rediscover the "normal" mode again.

    Also... Randoms have a 30 minute cooldown. So if those borg maps take 3 minutes altogether, if you're unlucky to get them all one after another... you still have all those 10+ minutes maps to play at your pleasure. Contrary to you, i find those tedious and boring, cause it's the same thing over and over again for a long time, but we're all different people. I For example also don't visit the forum and complain about other peoples gameplay. We're different idd.
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    fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,902 Arc User
    live8evil wrote: »
    So, you wan't a mission that takes a long time? Well my friend, since you clearly don't play much TFO, let me tell you about Azure nebula rescue, Borg disconnected, storming the spire, every new terran TFO... is that enough? Or do you wanna destroy those lonely 3 borg maps, which people use for performance benchmark? Can you just NOT? Thanks.

    You do realize that most people play random, don't you?
    We don't get to choose the map. All we get to choose is the difficulty, so you just take your benchmark testing to Elite where it belongs? Thank you.

    That's their own choice though, to play random missions. You want the extra rewards, then you've got to accept that you may end up in a mission that you don't like - or which develops differently than you expected because a powerful player is present there.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.

    [6/12 9:59][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 24097 (13711) Physical Damage(Critical) to Elite Tactical Drone
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    v1ctor1stv1ctor1st Member Posts: 183 Arc User
    Happened to me today in Hive Onslaught, the cut scenes lasted longer than the battles...i got 2 shots off just intime. The team was full of ships the size of shuttles laying waste to all the borg infront of them.
    AhvtPz9.jpg
    • "You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
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    darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,733 Community Moderator
    I hate to break it to you but there is no issue here save in your mind. What you fail to understand is that the people who are "instakilling" everything have spent alot of time and resources into investing in their builds and perfecting their craft. You are basically saying you want them punished because you can't keep up. If they were to do an artificial DPS cap you're not solving anything, you're just punishing people and incentivizing them not to do better. No game has ever succeeded by punishing its players for doing better.

    Every player in this game can do great damage or make a high quality tank using the free stuff you get in the game without ever having to touch lockboxes or promo items. You won't top the charts but you will still do well. Even without trying to go for pure DPS but trying to tank I'm still able to crank 150k when I want to. I could go higher if I wished but them I'm getting into glass tank territory and that's not fun for me. I'm not into the nanny runs where it's nothing but cheese to get a zillion DPS to flaunt on some kind of leader board. With that said I do like to have a decent amount of knockdown power.

    If you don't like to "instakill" things then you have a solution of placing manual limits on yourself and also grouping with like minded people. What you don't get to do is tell other people they have to do the same as you because you don't like it, or try to make the game do it for you. Your fun is not wrong, but your fun is not the only kind of fun that exists. Yet you are demanding the fun of others be restricted when you already have solutions available to you. I would advise that you play with similar minded people as they're not going to restrict people.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
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    ashstorm1ashstorm1 Member Posts: 679 Arc User
    So glad I maxed out Omega rep to Tier 6. No longer need to cope with that kind of BS.
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    pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,188 Arc User
    edited March 2023
    I hate to break it to you but there is no issue here save in your mind. What you fail to understand is that the people who are "instakilling" everything have spent alot of time and resources into investing in their builds and perfecting their craft. You are basically saying you want them punished because you can't keep up. If they were to do an artificial DPS cap you're not solving anything, you're just punishing people and incentivizing them not to do better. No game has ever succeeded by punishing its players for doing better.
    I don't know, power creep does seem pretty bad in recent years. We have got to the point where even hanger pets are doing a zillion DPS without nanie runs. Yet alone adding on ship weapons or Bridge officer ability. DPS has gone off the charts compared to what the content requires.

    We have got to the point where ground builds are doing enough DPS on ground to enter the 10k space DPS channel and 150k dps is very low DPS for hangar bays yet along a full build. That to me screams a problem with power creep.

    Placing manual limits on ourselves doesn't work as that just means we get the AFK penalty and can no longer play.

    I do agree with "You don't get to do is tell other people they have to do the same as you because you don't like it, or try to make the game do it for you. Your fun is not wrong, but your fun is not the only kind of fun that exists. Yet you are demanding the fun of others be restricted when you already have solutions available to you." but at the same time I feel more and more like we have a power creep problem.

    As an example is I used to struggle just hitting 10% crit chance as an Engineer in a Cruiser now I have barely any equipment on my ship. I even removed crit based tactical consoles yet I am sitting on 45.1% base crit. That's a crazy level of power creep. I have already been hit by the AFK penalty 3 times in this current event despite the fact I was not AFK all because of power creep and instant death. 1 hour 30min I could not play during this event, that's a problem and it seems to be getting worse.
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,143 Community Moderator
    Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.

    Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.

    I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.

    The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
    Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
    Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
    Is their fun wrong? No.

    Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.

    Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.

    Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,902 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Think everyone needs to step back for a moment. Its getting a bit close to heated argument in here.

    Personally I feel that using Infected as a "benchmark" is questionable. You got four other variables (the rest of the team) that can tip your DPS up or down depending on what BOff abilities are used.

    I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them. And I got a decent build myself.

    The whole issue is kind of a double edged sword.
    Do some people get enjoyment out of min-maxing and getting the absolute best out of their builds? Yes
    Does it adversely affect some other players? Yes.
    Is their fun wrong? No.

    Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were less interested in testing their DPS as they were gunning for quick rewards. And unfortunately Infected is pretty straight forward and can be nuked. In fact I'm pretty sure the original three Borg TFOs are all easy to nuke with a top end DPS build.

    Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.

    Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory. Its not just the build that can be a problem. Its the attitude of the Player using it that can be just as much of a problem. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.

    (Emphasis added.)

    That is probably the biggest problem here. It's the same thing with the Voth battlezone: players - apparently - find it very difficult to care about the fact that they're not alone in this game.

    Also, there is another reason why it's kind of silly to treat Infected as a benchmark map. Simply put: it's not representative at all for the game's content (anymore).


    All that being said, I do believe that there's an issue with power creep in the game. But it is limited to a few missions, ones that I personally find too boring to still play them.
    valoreah wrote: »
    live8evil wrote: »
    No, I didn't misunderstood anything, because there is NO problem. Beside a few borg TFOs, the mission play time is usualy over 10 minutes, because they're timed.

    Actually yes, you are misunderstanding the problem. Timers are great and all, but they are not a solution. When NPC mobs are vaporized near instantly, players are left sitting around waiting for a timer to expire.

    How often is this an issue though? I can see (and certainly have seen) it being a problem when players are basically forced to play normal level content as with SB1 at the moment, but in, say, Azure Nebula I've never had this issue. One or two powerful players may be present, but there are four places where you can go. Same with missions like Borg Disconnected.


    I've found that it is highly unlikely that you can't shoot at anything under normal circumstances (ie, excluding instances where players are forced into normal level content) in time gated content, especially on larger maps with enemies spread out over large distances.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.

    [6/12 9:59][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 24097 (13711) Physical Damage(Critical) to Elite Tactical Drone
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    echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,914 Arc User
    I've been in runs where I was probably the lowest DPSer there and usually still managed to get enough in to not get AFk'd.

    I'm only interested in killing things before they kill me. I don't even know what my DPS is, except that it's enough to hold my own.

    I don't complain about the insta-killers, I just go my way and have my own fun. I only remember one player who trolled me in chat after an event TFO years ago when I was running a Star Cruiser. I ignored them and didn't even bother responding to their PMs.

    I don't suck because I don't do mega-damage. I get enough in to help the team, insta-killers or not.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
    Just because you spend money on this game, it does not entitle you to be a jerk if things don't go your way.
    I have come to the conclusion that I have a memory like Etch-A-Sketch. I shake my head and forget everything. :D
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,143 Community Moderator
    I'm pretty much with echatty. I can hold my own just fine. Pretty sure I'm at least pulling about 15-20k DPS, but as I don't run a parser I don't know for sure.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,733 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    Here is another out of touch response that exemplifies how the issue is misunderstood. The last piece (emphasis mine) is the key part and to be quite honest, hypocritical in my opinion. The sentiment seems to be people who do not want to be in RTFOs with players who can insta-vape the entire map should "play with similar minded people", but not the inverse. Surely the high DPS folk can do the same and find like minded players to run TFOs with?

    The part about making the effort to socialize and find like minded players is true, but that is most certainly a door that swings both ways.

    There is nothing misunderstood or hypocritical save in your own mind. I know what I said and meant exactly what I said. You've got a really bad habit of trying to project the whole "you're misunderstanding" on people purely because they disagree with you. While there are going to be times people misunderstand things, especially over text only comms, simply because someone doesn't agree with you it doesn't mean they've "misunderstood" nor does it make them a hypocrite. If you believe there is a misunderstanding you bear the burden of proof to demonstrate how. The OP quite literally advocated for a DPS cap "as a possible solution to the instakill problem" and then went on to outright say "there needs to be a limit". That is the very definition of trying to dictate to other people how they can and can't play.

    I wouldn't call myself a min/maxer, but by the definition being used in here I would be considered one. Both sides have a right to join random TFOs and participate so long as they have met the criteria set forth by the game itself. If for example a TFO requires everyone on the team to be 65, have a minimum of mk xii blues in all slots, and deal 20k DPS to avoid an auto-fail, then everyone who meets that requirement has a right to enter the TFO. If you have 4 guys meeting just that bare minimum and a 5th guy who has met everything but the DPS check of 20k, then that 5th guy has no business or right to enter that TFO until he ups his game. If his teammates want to carry him and are capable of doing so more power to them if they choose to do so. Even if those 4 other guys are doing 200k a pop and could easily carry the 5th guy, they are under ZERO obligation to do so. If that 5th guy wants to experience that content, he can complete the requirements like everyone else or find a team that doesn't mind carrying him, or he can sit it out. He does NOT get to force others to carry him.

    In the bit I highlighted in bold you recognize on the surface that it goes both ways. I have always advocated that so long as people have met the minimum requirements set forth by the TFO itself, they have a right to be there. If they don't meet those requirements, they have no right to be there. I have never advocated otherwise. "insta vapers" and non-insta vapers alike BOTH have a right to join random TFOs.

    I wouldn't call myself a min/maxer, but by the standard of logic used in this thread I would be considered one. I have the ability to do elites, and there isn't a single elite in this game I haven't beaten at least once. However simply because I have this ability doesn't mean I always want to do elites. Sometimes I want to simply blitz through something on advanced. I hope I don't AFK people, but if I do then that's not my problem. I am not responsible for the fun of other people in this game. Should that player require help to avoid AFK penalties I am willing to help them however.

    When people press that random button, they're agreeing to play with whoever it groups them with. They might get put in a group of full group of "insta vapers" and they might be the top DPS in the run. If I as a "min/max" don't want to run the risk of getting grouped with lower DPS people, I have the option to form teams with like minded people. Likewise the opposite is true for the OP. If they don't want to be grouped with "insta vapers" then they can form their own teams. Otherwise both sides have a right to be in those random TFOs so long as they've met the minimums set forth by the game itself.

    To conclude, the fun of the OP is not wrong. However the fun of the "insta vapers" is not wrong either. The fun of the OP is not so important he gets impose a DPS cap on the insta-vape players because he doesn't like it. THAT is my gripe.


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    baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 10,446 Community Moderator
    Ok, I think folks need to dial back the heat in here a bit.
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    evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    the fun of the "insta vapers" is not wrong either.

    DPS chasers insta-vaping everything DOES hamper the average player's ability to enjoy the game though, massively over-geared players soloing what should be group content often makes appropriately geared players think things like "Why am I even here? Why should I bother trying?". If I wanted to watch someone else kill stuff I'd go on Twitch, people who can destroy entire waves of enemies and even bosses before I manage to get even a single shot off do not belong in Normal difficulty queues at all. IMO events should not remove Advanced and Elite difficulties from the queues that are part of the event, and Random Elite queues should be an option as well.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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    thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,540 Arc User
    OP, I've been playing this game since March 12th, 2012. I've worked damned hard to get my ship and my level of competency within this game to the point where I'm doing my fair share in a TFO. Because more often than not, there are players in said TFO who do not know what they're doing on even the most basic level. Or worse, do not care. Most days, I just shrug it off. It is the price of playing STO.

    I'm not, "Instakilling" ships in a TFO because it amuses me and I take joy in ruining other player's entertainment. I'm playing STO the best I can because others in the same TFO may not know how to build a ship properly so it does carry its fair share. I'm also not selfish with the knowledge I've earned. If you ask, I'll be delighted to share what I've learned about STO over the years. I promise it will be the best ninety seconds of your day, too.

    All the time you spent thinking about how to achieve maximum animosity towards and contempt for people like me inside that Wall o' Text would have been put to better use reading up on what does what when and then playing the game some more. Setting a DPS cap on people like me is the second fastest way I know to get me to stop playing STO completely. And then fun finally knows where to go to die inside STO.
    A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
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    protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 3,031 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I admit I always panic when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run because most of the time they're so powerful they vaporize things just by LOOKING at them.
    From what I've heard the uberdeepz folks just gesture with one hand kinda like Yoda does and that's it, all the "bad" guys blow up and the run is over.
    Again I would like to say that their fun is not wrong. However I wish those people were a bit more mindful of other players and their capabilities as accidentally AFKing members of the team can adversely affect those players.
    Fortunately the AFK threshold is set very low. In fact it seems to be a little less than 2 percent of the team's damage. One reason an emergency conn officer is recommended so often is mobility.. if a player can get some shots in there shouldn't be any penalty.
    Having a ship set up with massive DPS can be a trophy for a player. A mark of pride or something. But there is a fine line before it crosses into epeen ego territory.
    epeen ?
    Players can reach rather amazing levels of destruction. The problem really is that they don't have anywhere to really put it to the test.
    In the 10 Forward Weekly 2/28/23 thread there was mention of something more difficult coming. Maybe it will be a good outlet for players wanting to test their mettle ?
    There is some content coming out soon thats going to be more difficult then normal content, but Cryptic is unlikely to do a bunch of super hard content because data shows the game isn't as flooded with "DPS heads" as it might seem
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