Gorn need a revamp

kindjal · November 2022

This is to be my first post. Being a huge Gorn fan, im a bit upset over the fact Gorn are a rather limited species in terms of specific content. Also...no females - which leads me straight to the point -> DEVS, since there are no Gorn females, why cant male Gorn use the monokini? I have in my plans to go FULL BORAT on Risa, could you make something like that possible for all Gorn players?

The Lizard of OZ salutes you

ashstorm1 · November 2022

The same applies to Nausicaans and Letheans. Just because we never saw female individuals of these species in the canon so far doesn't mean they don't exist. After all, Reman females weren't a thing either before Cryptic decided to make them a real thing.

rattler2 · November 2022

I've already got scars from seeing Gorn in Speedos on Risa.

As for Gorn females, the thing with the Gorn is that they are the most reptilian species, which means biologically they may follow reptilian dimorphism rather than mammalian, so no obvious means to identify a female. If we use real world reptiles as a reference, the only real difference between a male and female is potentially size. There are no other physical features you can see. So its not so easy to just stick booba on a Gorn and call it a day.

lianthelia · November 2022

rattler2 wrote: »

I've already got scars from seeing Gorn in Speedos on Risa.

As for Gorn females, the thing with the Gorn is that they are the most reptilian species, which means biologically they may follow reptilian dimorphism rather than mammalian, so no obvious means to identify a female. If we use real world reptiles as a reference, the only real difference between a male and female is potentially size. There are no other physical features you can see. So its not so easy to just stick booba on a Gorn and call it a day.

Which is something they already did with female Saurian "shivers"

I think SWG did female Trandoshan well, they looked visually a bit more feminine but they (logically) lacked mammaries

baddmoonrizin · November 2022

Yeah, I never understood the choice to not make female Gorn, Letheans, and Nausicaans. Because the "they weren't shown in canon" excuse doesn't fly. Female Tellarites, Benzites, Saurians, and Remans weren't shown in canon either, yet we have them.

But OP, we're not likely to get any updates storywise for the Gorn any time soon since SNW has been using them lately.

paradox · November 2022

ashstorm1 wrote: »

The same applies to Nausicaans and Letheans. Just because we never saw female individuals of these species in the canon so far doesn't mean they don't exist. After all, Reman females weren't a thing either before Cryptic decided to make them a real thing.

Actually we do have one appearance of a Gorn female in canon, that is if you consider Lower Decks as canon, apparently Female Gorn have boobas judging from the gorn wedding in Season 1 episode 8 Veritas, however SNW contradicts this biological aspect 2 years later.

rattler2 · November 2022

Well... considering it was Rutherford's testimony under duress... Gorn Booba is suspect. Also we've seen Gorn without the eye shield things.

paradox · November 2022

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

Yeah, I never understood the choice to not make female Gorn, Letheans, and Nausicaans. Because the "they weren't shown in canon" excuse doesn't fly. Female Tellarites, Benzites, Saurians, and Remans weren't shown in canon either, yet we have them.

But OP, we're not likely to get any updates storywise for the Gorn any time soon since SNW has been using them lately.

Wasn't there concept art for female Nausicaans, Like from a time before Cryptic got ahold of this game?

baddmoonrizin · November 2022

paradox#7391 wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

Yeah, I never understood the choice to not make female Gorn, Letheans, and Nausicaans. Because the "they weren't shown in canon" excuse doesn't fly. Female Tellarites, Benzites, Saurians, and Remans weren't shown in canon either, yet we have them.

But OP, we're not likely to get any updates storywise for the Gorn any time soon since SNW has been using them lately.

Wasn't there concept art for female Nausicaans, Like from a time before Cryptic got ahold of this game?

Yes

avoozuul · November 2022

They should do like what they did with the Klingons, have two choosable versions of Gorn species on character creation TOS and STO.

colonelmarik · November 2022

I wonder if it's really necessary to have a male/female dichotomy. I mean, just because humans are biologically male or female doesn't mean Gorn have to be. They could even have variable morphology, able to take on attributes of the other gender (something brought up in Jurassic Park, for example).
Given today's political landscape, perhaps this is an opportunity to actually explore and represent a truly non-binary species.

smokebailey · November 2022

To me, Lower Decks IS cannon. And that's what a Gorn is, not xenomorphs.

spiritborn · November 2022

rattler2 wrote: »

I've already got scars from seeing Gorn in Speedos on Risa.

As for Gorn females, the thing with the Gorn is that they are the most reptilian species, which means biologically they may follow reptilian dimorphism rather than mammalian, so no obvious means to identify a female. If we use real world reptiles as a reference, the only real difference between a male and female is potentially size. There are no other physical features you can see. So its not so easy to just stick booba on a Gorn and call it a day.

This would be a good example what that could look on something that's not Gorn (and from a different game too but that's besides the point), could you tell if they're a male or a female without me telling you.

And size doesn't determine sex and/or gender on the Dracthyr so it's not that (not that there's anything to scale my character within that pic).

fleetcaptain5 · November 2022

colonelmarik wrote: »

I wonder if it's really necessary to have a male/female dichotomy. I mean, just because humans are biologically male or female doesn't mean Gorn have to be. They could even have variable morphology, able to take on attributes of the other gender (something brought up in Jurassic Park, for example).
Given today's political landscape, perhaps this is an opportunity to actually explore and represent a truly non-binary species.

We already have a non-binary species: Andorians. Not in-game but some works consider them to have four (I think?) sexes.

fleetcaptain5 · November 2022

As for revamping the Gorn:

I'm all for it. I do hope they'll limit themselves to character creation-related stuff though, so no changes to powers/abilities etc.

I know it's unlikely as any revamp will likely mean a complete overhaul - but I like the fact that there are a few 'simple' species in terms of how many debuffs and special powers they use. Fighting Gorn (or Orions, regular Klingons or Nausicaans) can give some much needed relief from fighting reflection-killing Voth, subnuc spamming Hirogen or debuff-enthusiastic Heralds for example.

spiritborn · November 2022

fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: »

colonelmarik wrote: »

I wonder if it's really necessary to have a male/female dichotomy. I mean, just because humans are biologically male or female doesn't mean Gorn have to be. They could even have variable morphology, able to take on attributes of the other gender (something brought up in Jurassic Park, for example).
Given today's political landscape, perhaps this is an opportunity to actually explore and represent a truly non-binary species.

We already have a non-binary species: Andorians. Not in-game but some works consider them to have four (I think?) sexes.

Unless the new series have changed it the 4 sexes of the Andorians is an EU only thing with ENT implying they're binary like humans.

paradox · November 2022

spiritborn wrote: »

fleetcaptain5#1134 wrote: »

colonelmarik wrote: »

I wonder if it's really necessary to have a male/female dichotomy. I mean, just because humans are biologically male or female doesn't mean Gorn have to be. They could even have variable morphology, able to take on attributes of the other gender (something brought up in Jurassic Park, for example).
Given today's political landscape, perhaps this is an opportunity to actually explore and represent a truly non-binary species.

We already have a non-binary species: Andorians. Not in-game but some works consider them to have four (I think?) sexes.

Unless the new series have changed it the 4 sexes of the Andorians is an EU only thing with ENT implying they're binary like humans.

The 4 sexes of Andorians are 2 males and 2 females, one male Andorian (Thaans) is buff like Shaxs while the other male one (Chans) are smaller and skinnier also gets sloppy seconds when reproduction is involved, there doesn't seem to be any physical description to differentiate the females except for the fact that one (Shens) gets it on with both males and carries the child to mid-term before transferring the child to the other female (Zhens) who then carries the child the rest of the way to term.

If anything Andorian are Bisexual rather than non-binary.

baddmoonrizin · November 2022

avoozuul wrote: »

They should do like what they did with the Klingons, have two choosable versions of Gorn species on character creation TOS and STO.

There are already two versions of Gorn in-game: TOS and STO. Granted, one must unlock the TOS version with a TOS FED character, but it is available. And I'm not a fan of them having made DSC Klingons as a separate race choice. It should've been a cosmetic unlock, just like TOS Klingons and Gorn. So, when they do decide to add more DSC races in the future (like the impending Andorians), I hope they are cosmetic choices and not separate races.

paradox · November 2022

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

avoozuul wrote: »

They should do like what they did with the Klingons, have two choosable versions of Gorn species on character creation TOS and STO.

There are already two versions of Gorn in-game: TOS and STO. Granted, one must unlock the TOS version with a TOS FED character, but it is available. And I'm not a fan of them having made DSC Klingons as a separate race choice. It should've been a cosmetic unlock, just like TOS Klingons and Gorn. So, when they do decide to add more DSC races in the future (like the impending Andorians), I hope they are cosmetic choices and not separate races.

I Agree cosmetic would have been better, a DSC Klingon captain commanding a crew of TNG klingons never sat right with me, if you're going to add DSC Klingons as a playable species, you might as well also give us DSC Klingon BOFFs.

jonsills · November 2022

In Larry Niven's Known Space stories, no human can tell the difference between male and female puppeteers. (In fact, their biology resembles that of parasitic wasps, in that the female uses an ovipositor to place the ovum into a third gender, or possibly separate species (puppeteers are shy about that sort of thing), the male then has sex-equivalent to inject the sperm, and the third gender gives birth). Kzinti are easier, as the females are smaller and nonsapient. Outsiders look like a six-foot-long cat-o-nine-tails and live in hard vacuum; we don't even know if they have genders, and it'll cost you a cool trillion UN stars to find out. The Moties, from his collab with Jerry Pournelle The Mote In God's Eye, swap genders every two years (or die of hormonal imbalances), and the only way a human can tell one gender from another is if they're pregnant or are of the Mediator class (Mediators are all female, and have a lifespan of about 26 years).

In the Mass Effect games, female turians are slimmer than males, with slightly higher-pitched voices on average. Female krogan are rarely seen, but the one we have the most knowledge of from ME3 appears to be stockier and lacking the male's back hump. I have no idea if I've ever seen a female salarian. Asari are the only species that share human gender traits, and asari are universally female, reproducing by something similar but not identical to parthenogenesis.

My point is, how do you know you haven't seen female Gorn, Nausicaans, or Letheans? They're alien. There's absolutely no reason to assume their sexual dimorphism, if any, includes TRIBBLE.

baddmoonrizin · November 2022

paradox#7391 wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

There are already two versions of Gorn in-game: TOS and STO. Granted, one must unlock the TOS version with a TOS FED character, but it is available. And I'm not a fan of them having made DSC Klingons as a separate race choice. It should've been a cosmetic unlock, just like TOS Klingons and Gorn. So, when they do decide to add more DSC races in the future (like the impending Andorians), I hope they are cosmetic choices and not separate races.

I Agree cosmetic would have been better, a DSC Klingon captain commanding a crew of TNG klingons never sat right with me, if you're going to add DSC Klingons as a playable species, you might as well also give us DSC Klingon BOFFs.

And this right here is one of the main reasons that I'm upset that DSC Klingons were implemented as a separate race and not a cosmetic option. No DSC Klingon BOFFs. I'm reluctant to make a DSC Klingon toon because of it. 🙎‍♀️

Anyway, back to Gorn: I do hope that we get a focus on Gorn at some point after SNW has had their run at the Gorn.

paradox · November 2022

jonsills wrote: »

In Larry Niven's Known Space stories, no human can tell the difference between male and female puppeteers. (In fact, their biology resembles that of parasitic wasps, in that the female uses an ovipositor to place the ovum into a third gender, or possibly separate species (puppeteers are shy about that sort of thing), the male then has sex-equivalent to inject the sperm, and the third gender gives birth). Kzinti are easier, as the females are smaller and nonsapient. Outsiders look like a six-foot-long cat-o-nine-tails and live in hard vacuum; we don't even know if they have genders, and it'll cost you a cool trillion UN stars to find out. The Moties, from his collab with Jerry Pournelle The Mote In God's Eye, swap genders every two years (or die of hormonal imbalances), and the only way a human can tell one gender from another is if they're pregnant or are of the Mediator class (Mediators are all female, and have a lifespan of about 26 years).

In the Mass Effect games, female turians are slimmer than males, with slightly higher-pitched voices on average. Female krogan are rarely seen, but the one we have the most knowledge of from ME3 appears to be stockier and lacking the male's back hump. I have no idea if I've ever seen a female salarian. Asari are the only species that share human gender traits, and asari are universally female, reproducing by something similar but not identical to parthenogenesis.

My point is, how do you know you haven't seen female Gorn, Nausicaans, or Letheans? They're alien. There's absolutely no reason to assume their sexual dimorphism, if any, includes TRIBBLE.

I already provided proof, however it might be just one subspecies of Gorn that has TRIBBLE like the Ssessekh aka TOS Gorn, while another like the Russth aka ENT's bad CGI Gorn might be xenomorph themed, Lath aka TAS Red Gorn might have similar biology to their Green skinned cousins the Ssessekh and Kelvin timeline movie Gorn are the ugliest being the most human looking ones, not sure what's the name for T-Rex Gorn from the kelvin timeline game and the name for STO Gorn, however I can see STO Gorn being the missing link between the Ssessekh and Russth Gorn.

jonsills · November 2022

Your "proof", as noted by Rattler, is provided by an unreliable narrator. Further undermining this is the concept that in that image not only do Gorn have mammalian secondary sexual characteristics, but also follow Human wedding customs exactly, right down to the white wedding dress (and that's not even universal for Humans!).

It's just about as useful as your "multiple species of Gorn" hypothesis, borne out only in fanfiction (yes, the novels are fanfic too, just better edited than AO3).

rattler2 · November 2022

Honestly the Kelvin Timeline Gorn from the game are odd. I mean on one level they're even scarier reptilians that are not bulky and slow, but fast and vicious like Raptors. On the otherhand... they're invaders from another galaxy?

I have the game and thought it was alright. And the Gorn felt very alien. Although I feel like they could have called them anything, like establishing an original antagonist species rather than calling them Gorn and it would have worked. But we did have the callback to Into Darkness where McCoy talked about delivering a baby Gorn. Sulu stunned a Gorn, and turned out it was pregnant, and McCoy had to deliver the baby. Said it came out all teeth and claws. So in a way Into Darkness references the game. Just not the details. And they did reference the game in one of the comics when Kirk ran into the Gorn again, only it was a group that didn't want to conquer.

I think the T-Rex Gorn is probably just there to be a reference to the TOS Gorn as Kirk neck chops it when it grabs him, just like in TOS.

kaggert27 · November 2022

Honestly, I wouldn't mind an expanding gender/social thing dealing with the Gorn, Andorians, and other species that are not 2 genders only, as we have multiple things that flat out are semi-cannon in terms of what their species mating orders, like the Andorians with their 4, could get into the weird Binar's 0/1 thing from TNG, The Denobulans 3 Wives and 3 Husband's thing; Bolians and their sometimes co-husbands and co-wives. J'naii and their androgynous race which raises a ton of "what happened with them" questions. Expand out further is somehow we can mention minor races that don't show up due to Expanded Universe/non-canon we can go into the Hydrian with their weird 3 gender thing.

And Elim Garak being the pansexual Roger of Star Trek.

But also some stuff says that the Gorn are actually 3 different convergent species (basically from Starfleet Battles/Command) so we could give reason why there are TOS Gorn, STO Gorn, and have a 3rd added

(I wouldn't take from the JJverse, those are stated as from out of the Galaxy based on that game, and the concept prop-head one from the movies is kind of...Major Trash)

. And say the New Worlds ones are a weird mutation due to some experiment gone wrong on them (we could even say that is a subset of another due to some bacteria/virus/parasite explaining why the eggs are shot by mouth or whatever, as it doesn't seem to match when Kirk fought one which should have attempted the egg thing on him beforehand, and feels like someone liked Alien/s too much and JJverse game versions with 15 different Gorn types, and decided to go that route).

Basically if this means we can add some more traits to the gene pool for boffs and characters, I'd really like that, also can Gorn players get the chance to pick up boulders and toss them like the ground with the Hurl that the NPC enemies do? And while we are at it we need some change to their attack pets to be less... derp/slow/whatever.

jonsills · November 2022

The Gorn that Kirk fought in "Arena" was clearly either not an egg-layer, or not in the breeding portion of its cycle (even the Moties get a break between giving birth and impregnating another Motie). Given how little canon data we have on the Gorn, we haven't seen anything on-screen that isn't easily reconciled.

I would love to see some alien aliens in Trek. I know the live-action ones have to be humanoid for the most part, because interacting with completely CGI characters is still very expensive, but maybe stick a couple in there somewhere? And what about the two animated series?

avoozuul · November 2022

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

avoozuul wrote: »

They should do like what they did with the Klingons, have two choosable versions of Gorn species on character creation TOS and STO.

There are already two versions of Gorn in-game: TOS and STO. Granted, one must unlock the TOS version with a TOS FED character, but it is available.

I am aware of this but people haven't been able to get the bare chest option for the TOS Gorn via the tailor, I figured this would be the only solution to have proper TOS Gorn.

baddmoonrizin · November 2022

avoozuul wrote: »

baddmoonrizin wrote: »

avoozuul wrote: »

They should do like what they did with the Klingons, have two choosable versions of Gorn species on character creation TOS and STO.

There are already two versions of Gorn in-game: TOS and STO. Granted, one must unlock the TOS version with a TOS FED character, but it is available.

I am aware of this but people haven't been able to get the bare chest option for the TOS Gorn via the tailor, I figured this would be the only solution to have proper TOS Gorn.

Not the only solution. One could also file a bug report, since this option was supposed to be made available with said cosmetic unlock. I bang this drum occassionally myself. But I'd much rather have these cosmetic options made available for existing playable races rather than making a separate race. See previous comments related to DSC Klingons.

vorwoda · December 2022

Expanding the Reptilian Strength trait to allow for boulder throwing would be a great step to giving Gorn a decent trait set. Adding the Poison Bite to Gorn Boffs would be cool, too.

Then again, perhaps the poison bite is a secondary sex characteristic. Captains with it are one sex, BOFFs and captains without it are the other.

As for reptilian sexual dimorphism, male and female lizards have slightly different cloaca placement, and in turtles with rounded shells (box turtles, for example), the male's plastron (under shell) is convex, while the female's is flat. Taking care of reptiles, you start to notice things like that.

paradox · December 2022

vorwoda wrote: »

Expanding the Reptilian Strength trait to allow for boulder throwing would be a great step to giving Gorn a decent trait set. Adding the Poison Bite to Gorn Boffs would be cool, too.

Then again, perhaps the poison bite is a secondary sex characteristic. Captains with it are one sex, BOFFs and captains without it are the other.

As for reptilian sexual dimorphism, male and female lizards have slightly different cloaca placement, and in turtles with rounded shells (box turtles, for example), the male's plastron (under shell) is convex, while the female's is flat. Taking care of reptiles, you start to notice things like that.

I feel like poison bite would be the Female Gorn trait since in Nature Females are known to be more deadlier than the Males, when it comes to most animal species, also Female Gorn would be larger too since Female reptiles are bigger than Male reptiles.

jonsills · December 2022

paradox#7391 wrote: »

vorwoda wrote: »

Expanding the Reptilian Strength trait to allow for boulder throwing would be a great step to giving Gorn a decent trait set. Adding the Poison Bite to Gorn Boffs would be cool, too.

Then again, perhaps the poison bite is a secondary sex characteristic. Captains with it are one sex, BOFFs and captains without it are the other.

As for reptilian sexual dimorphism, male and female lizards have slightly different cloaca placement, and in turtles with rounded shells (box turtles, for example), the male's plastron (under shell) is convex, while the female's is flat. Taking care of reptiles, you start to notice things like that.

I feel like poison bite would be the Female Gorn trait since in Nature Females are known to be more deadlier than the Males, when it comes to most animal species, also Female Gorn would be larger too since Female reptiles are bigger than Male reptiles.

Of course, that's going by the standards of the terrestrial equivalent - maybe Gorn females have taller ridge crests or something, assuming they have only two genders. The egg-layer does appear to be smaller and faster than the one we saw in "Arena", though, implying the species does have strong sexual dimorphism (unless the egg-layer is a different stage of life, similar to, say, Earth sponges, which are mobile as larvae and sessile (staying in one place) in their adult form. (Some jellyfish go the other way, being sessile after hatching and becoming mobile in adulthood.))

Gorn need a revamp

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