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Game is in need of much more Elite level TFO content

valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,726 Arc User
Been running a fair share of PUG advanced level RTFOs and events of late working on endeavors and such. To start, I want to acknowledge I am only speaking from my personal experience and observations. I understand others will have a different experience.

In summary, the game is in need of much more elite level TFO content, especially for space. Just this morning I was in an ISA that lasted all of 40 seconds and a HOA that lasted just over one and a half minutes. I understand there are quite a few people out there with super high DPS vape builds, which is perfectly fine if that is how they want to be able to play. More power to them. However, it would be nice to have more optional Elite level content where NPCs are not vaporized instantly.

The frustration I am having with this in particular is that it makes working on various endeavors like hull/shield repairing and such a real chore to complete. More often than not, I simply un-equip shields and armor on my ships so I can actually take enough damage to complete these in a reasonable amount of time. The flip side of this is that damage dealt endeavors take all of one quick salvo the majority of the time and can be completed near instantly, which makes them superfluous to even have in the endeavor rotation.

I am not asking to force anyone into mandatory, challenging elite level content, simply more of the TFOs getting an Elite level. Increase the rewards however you think appropriate, and by all means please do keep the existing content as is for players who enjoy it.
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Comments

  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    I think a better solution would be to stop adding so much power creep.

    They could add new elite content, but most people who kill everything in mere seconds on advanced would likely have only a bit more trouble doing the same thing on elite.

    Moreover, as long as they keep adding things like additional trait slots, room for more consoles, more powerful stuff in general and so on, it will only be a solution for a brief period. If even that.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,952 Arc User
    Not sure if having more would fix anything as players would still be funneled towards RATFOS (random advanced) the majority of the time.

    Randoms being random make getting a team that's "just right" for any particular player tough at times. Have often had the same sort of experience with one team being highly efficient and the next leaving one wondering why bots* are allowed.

    *disclaimer: figure of speech only.. they're not really bots but it just seems that way and no they are not allowed
  • trenthowelltrenthowell Member Posts: 52 Arc User
    It wouldn't really fix much, especially with random advanced queues since all it takes is one person with competent build to achieve those sub 1 minute times in ISA. Not to mention that bar isn't exactly high either given the games power creep
  • misachii87misachii87 Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    the problem is even with more elite content pple will still do ratfos, since they give better rewards.
    before the random button i did many elite trains and elite was played alot and even solo you could start an elite tfo relatively quickly (some, not the unpopular ones) but with random button this was killed and all the pple who did elite trains changed to ratfos.
    we need ratfo button for elite lol, one that allows player to preselect the tfos that are included in the random.
  • dacia#9992 dacia Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    misachii87 wrote: »
    the problem is even with more elite content pple will still do ratfos, since they give better rewards.
    before the random button i did many elite trains and elite was played alot and even solo you could start an elite tfo relatively quickly (some, not the unpopular ones) but with random button this was killed and all the pple who did elite trains changed to ratfos.
    we need ratfo button for elite lol, one that allows player to preselect the tfos that are included in the random.

    I'm not certain I would use the word 'need' but I think it might be fun to have random elites.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    The only one I know of that can be done in less than a minute is Infected, which is everyones favorite DPS measuring stick. (I disagree because Infected is skewed by team performance as well as duration.)

    Also if you're trying to use TFOs for damage or healing Endeavors... I wouldn't suggest using ones like Infected. For shield healing I'd suggest Counterpoint. Might even work for hull healing. Damage type endeavors... just run an Argala patrol. Borg ship kills, probably better to run something like Khitomer or Hive.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    Hull healing is most easily done in the Voth space battlezone. There are plenty of targets that immediately drop in health after being healed so you can basically throw heals at them endlessly.

    Even if you are in an instance without those, that big satellite near the Allied Tower, the towers themselves and the allied ships in the debris fields near the Wasteland usually have plenty of missing hull points.

    Shield healing is also done easily here, though to a lesser extent because many shield heals just aren't registered properly.


    Ok, I'm off topic so I'll leave it at that.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,593 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Been running a fair share of PUG advanced level RTFOs and events of late working on endeavors and such. To start, I want to acknowledge I am only speaking from my personal experience and observations. I understand others will have a different experience.

    In summary, the game is in need of much more elite level TFO content, especially for space. Just this morning I was in an ISA that lasted all of 40 seconds and a HOA that lasted just over one and a half minutes. I understand there are quite a few people out there with super high DPS vape builds, which is perfectly fine if that is how they want to be able to play. More power to them. However, it would be nice to have more optional Elite level content where NPCs are not vaporized instantly.

    The frustration I am having with this in particular is that it makes working on various endeavors like hull/shield repairing and such a real chore to complete. More often than not, I simply un-equip shields and armor on my ships so I can actually take enough damage to complete these in a reasonable amount of time. The flip side of this is that damage dealt endeavors take all of one quick salvo the majority of the time and can be completed near instantly, which makes them superfluous to even have in the endeavor rotation.

    I am not asking to force anyone into mandatory, challenging elite level content, simply more of the TFOs getting an Elite level. Increase the rewards however you think appropriate, and by all means please do keep the existing content as is for players who enjoy it.

    TBH, I would like to see throughout the game smaller instances, or the ability to start your own instance. most people are just re rolling kill gorn or scorpions on nimbus, because the instances are bloated with players. Nimbus should have isntances of 5 or less. God help me if I have to kill tholians with 25 people in one instance on nukara
    awkward.jpg
    We Want Vic Fontaine
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Been running a fair share of PUG advanced level RTFOs and events of late working on endeavors and such. To start, I want to acknowledge I am only speaking from my personal experience and observations. I understand others will have a different experience.

    In summary, the game is in need of much more elite level TFO content, especially for space. Just this morning I was in an ISA that lasted all of 40 seconds and a HOA that lasted just over one and a half minutes. I understand there are quite a few people out there with super high DPS vape builds, which is perfectly fine if that is how they want to be able to play. More power to them. However, it would be nice to have more optional Elite level content where NPCs are not vaporized instantly.

    The frustration I am having with this in particular is that it makes working on various endeavors like hull/shield repairing and such a real chore to complete. More often than not, I simply un-equip shields and armor on my ships so I can actually take enough damage to complete these in a reasonable amount of time. The flip side of this is that damage dealt endeavors take all of one quick salvo the majority of the time and can be completed near instantly, which makes them superfluous to even have in the endeavor rotation.

    I am not asking to force anyone into mandatory, challenging elite level content, simply more of the TFOs getting an Elite level. Increase the rewards however you think appropriate, and by all means please do keep the existing content as is for players who enjoy it.

    TBH, I would like to see throughout the game smaller instances, or the ability to start your own instance. most people are just re rolling kill gorn or scorpions on nimbus, because the instances are bloated with players. Nimbus should have isntances of 5 or less. God help me if I have to kill tholians with 25 people in one instance on nukara

    Yeah I went to Nimbus a little while ago to kill some gorn. There was only one instance and there was half a dozen-ish players in the canyon trying to get gorn kills. That was a fun time for all of us.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    IMO it highlights one issue some older MMOs have with some of their quests of "kill x mobs"... in a zone open to everyone. Sometimes you end up competing for kills to progress.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • khazlolkhazlol Member Posts: 167 Arc User
    i think the best solution would be infinitly scaling content.

    but i don't know if that is possible for sto
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    To be honest, I am not sure where or how you are coming to the conclusion I suggested I am running ISA TFOs only for endeavors. I suggest you re-read the thread again. You appear to have glanced over the topic without really understanding the question or subsequent discussion.

    You're talking about TFOs only lasting less than a minutedue to power creep. The ONLY one I know of that that particular statement is true is Infected, everyones favorite DPS measuring stick. And then the subject of endeavors came up as well, and I pointed out particular ones that would be better suited for different endeavors than the one known one that gets nuked by sheer DPS.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,952 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    TFOs lasting under a minute is a symptom of the larger problem of power creep and DPS far exceeding the available content making what is supposed to be the more challenging things utterly trivial.
    Advanced content is challenging for most players. It's always going to be a tough job finding a sweet spot for players ranging from 3000 to 300,000 dps and advanced is probably the closest thing. This could be why it's usually the busiest and where most people go.
    One negative result of that is this can make things like endeavors a real chore. As I mentioned, when I have to do things like un-equip gear in order to absorb enough damage to make a dent in an endeavor - regardless if in a RATFO or not - then something is not balanced properly.
    Patrols could be more reliable for certain endeavors.
    Part of the challenge of an endeavor should not be how to gimp myself in order to complete it in a reasonable amount of time.
    Players do this all the time to set themselves up for success (complete endeavors more quickly).
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,774 Arc User
    TFOs only covers a niche type of players, In my experience most randos are complete morons with only a 1% of them being extremely competent, besides those resources could also be better spend on story content and character models, I'm not saying that OP has a bad Idea, It's good it has my support.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    You're talking about TFOs only lasting less than a minutedue to power creep. The ONLY one I know of that that particular statement is true is Infected, everyones favorite DPS measuring stick. And then the subject of endeavors came up as well, and I pointed out particular ones that would be better suited for different endeavors than the one known one that gets nuked by sheer DPS.

    You still are not getting it. TFOs lasting under a minute (and ISA is definitely not the only one that does) is a symptom of the larger problem of power creep and DPS far exceeding the available content making what is supposed to be the more challenging things utterly trivial. One negative result of that is this can make things like endeavors a real chore. As I mentioned, when I have to do things like un-equip gear in order to absorb enough damage to make a dent in an endeavor - regardless if in a RATFO or not - then something is not balanced properly. Part of the challenge of an endeavor should not be how to gimp myself in order to complete it in a reasonable amount of time.

    Believe me, I understand what content works best for endeavors. I have been here since beta and do not really need any instruction on how to play. Thanks though.

    The Endeavours not being challenging is an issue in and of itself though.

    Most of them require some weird sort of playing to not spend unreasonable amounts of time on them. Shield heal on the ground for example - it's either deliberately taking damage on Nukara, or letting enemies endlessly shoot at you somewhere else. Same for healing on the ground, and in space although there you can at least find some NPCs like in the Voth space battlezone.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    More to the general topic:

    I certainly agree with the notion that we could use more challenging content in general.

    The problem is: that content is already available to some extent and nobody plays it. I've never been in Azure Nebula Elite in the last year for example. Simply because no one queues for it and the same is true for ISE. Players only tend to play these missions with pre-made teams and those are quickly going to steamroll over it anyway - as they will any other type of 'elite' content.


    In my opinion, the problem also isn't that there isn't any challenging content and that there needs to be more of it. The real problem is that a small fraction of the playerbase finds ways to get extraordinarely powerful - and then complains that everything is too easy (not pointing at you specifically Valoreah, but some other noteworthy, powerful players who have vacated the Forums would be good examples).
    As a result, there will always be demand for even harder content. The problem is that, if Cryptic were to meet this demand, you get ever more power creep which cause new issues at lower difficulties. Think of players who are just good enough for Advanced not getting a chance to do much if even a single powerful player is present, for example. Besides it bringing in new problems, it also would not solve any of the existing issues you describe - at least not permanently.



    It's just going to even further promote an endless cycle of power creep. Not to mention that - even if it would temporarily solve some of the 'lack of challenge'-issues you mention - those issues really only exist for a tiny part of the playerbase. And, to be honest, they sought out those issues themselves by getting ever more powerful, to even ridiculous extents.

    No, their fun is not wrong - but their problems are self-created and Cryptic shouldn't devote scarce resources to working on something that will not be a permanent fix anyway. At least, that's what I'm thinking.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,952 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    Yes, that is called progress and why games add higher levels, more difficult content, new raids etc.

    New raids? Now you have my attention :smile:
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    valoreah wrote: »
    As a result, there will always be demand for even harder content.

    Yes, that is called progress and why games add higher levels, more difficult content, new raids etc.
    It's just going to even further promote an endless cycle of power creep. Not to mention that - even if it would temporarily solve some of the 'lack of challenge'-issues you mention - those issues really only exist for a tiny part of the playerbase. And, to be honest, they sought out those issues themselves by getting ever more powerful, to even ridiculous extents. No, their fun is not wrong - but their problems are self-created and Cryptic shouldn't devote scarce resources to working on something that will not be a permanent fix anyway. At least, that's what I'm thinking.

    Blaming the players for earning top tier gear and skills by learning and playing the game is definitely wrong and incorrectly ascribing the blame. That is just plain silly.

    It's not progress if it inevitably leads to the need to

    - either nerf things - because too many difficulty levels exist or the range of what players can do in terms of damage gets out of hand, thereby opening up the possibility of trolling or one player clearing out entire mission's worth of enemies by himself
    - or if it's going to require constant tweaking to existing content.

    Promoting a situation where the game has to constantly undo or update things already released, constantly being forced to look to the past basically, isn't progress.

    And I'm not blaming players for collecting 'top tier gear and skills'. I'm blaming the players for doing those things and then complaining that everything is too easy.

    The game can be as difficult as the player wants it to be. No one forces players to stack as many EPG consoles as possible or use tons of traits for continuous uptime of extensively modified powers for example. That's all the result of them making their own choices.


    And again, if they think that's fun to do, it's not wrong. If they like to try and get ever bigger DPS numbers, good for them, I hope they can achieve those goals and enjoy the process of doing that.
    But one shouldn't complain about something that's the result of their own behaviour. That's what I would consider silly.

    And yes, Cryptic does encourage power creep, but players aren't passive victims either. They can make their own choices and they did.

    Anyway, my main point was that adding new difficulty levels isn't going to solve anything, because it will just reinforce the thing (namely, power creep) that drives the need for such new levels. In other words, it's self-defeating.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,774 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    valoreah wrote: »
    I honestly do not think you understand how game development works. Why do you think MMOs raise level caps and create new zones for the new level cap content? Or do you believe the idea is for players to reach level and gear caps and continue to just play lower level content for little to now reward?

    The reason MMOs add new zones isn't because of that, they do it to keep their playerbase interested it their game, hell the MMORPG zones add in story content while the challenging stuff is usually regulated to dungeons and trials, take ESO for example High Isle is yearly content that adds a couple of zones while also covering Breton lore, when it comes to TES races humans are my least favorite, with Bretons being my favorite amongst the humans, maybe it's more to do with their Superior Mer hertitage, I always view TES races like Altmer > other Mer > Beastfolk > Manmer > Men, I'm getting off topic but my point is that challenging content is not the reason why MMOs add New Zones, they're usually more about engaging and immersive story content than anything else.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    valoreah wrote: »
    It's not progress if it inevitably leads to the need to

    - either nerf things - because too many difficulty levels exist or the range of what players can do in terms of damage gets out of hand, thereby opening up the possibility of trolling or one player clearing out entire mission's worth of enemies by himself
    - or if it's going to require constant tweaking to existing content.

    Promoting a situation where the game has to constantly undo or update things already released, constantly being forced to look to the past basically, isn't progress.

    I honestly do not think you understand how game development works. Why do you think MMOs raise level caps and create new zones for the new level cap content? Or do you believe the idea is for players to reach level and gear caps and continue to just play lower level content for little to now reward?
    And I'm not blaming players for collecting 'top tier gear and skills'. I'm blaming the players for doing those things and then complaining that everything is too easy.

    Again, I do not think you are seeing the forest for the trees. Players that have reached level/gear caps not having sufficient content that is designed for level/gear caps is a legitimate concern. Not furthering the game progression and development is stagnation, not progress.
    The game can be as difficult as the player wants it to be. No one forces players to stack as many EPG consoles as possible or use tons of traits for continuous uptime of extensively modified powers for example. That's all the result of them making their own choices.

    Expecting the player to find ways to gimp themselves or not strive to improve because the game lacks more challenging content is just plain ridiculous.
    Anyway, my main point was that adding new difficulty levels isn't going to solve anything, because it will just reinforce the thing (namely, power creep) that drives the need for such new levels. In other words, it's self-defeating.

    So if I am understanding you, your thinking is that games should never progress with regard to levels or raid content tiers or anything of the sort? What is the reward incentive to continue to play for?

    No one claimed that games shouldn't progress.

    What I'm pointing out is that only adding more difficulty levels in itself isn't progress because it will only lead to a never ending cycle of either needing to add more of those, or nerfing things to bring people back to the existing difficulties.

    You know as well as I do that this is exactly what happened with Delta Rising for example.

    The old Elite missions were suddenly called Advanced, yet more difficult to complete for most people. They didn't like that, so the Devs needed to spend time tweaking all sorts of stuff (effectiveness of weapons at Mk 12, 13 and 14, effectiveness of Borg shield drains, their speed boosts and so on), players needed to be given all sorts of ways to improve, requiring a lot of spending only to be able to complete the content that until a few weeks earlier, they already could finish.

    That is what introducing more difficult content will only do in the longer term. More power creep - because you can't justify creating things that no one is able to play or complete - with the Devs eventually realising they need to combat the excessive power which in turn will mostly have consequences for the average player - because those dealing 600k DPS will still be able to finish their missions, while those who were just good enough for a certain difficulty level, will no longer be.

    It is nothing but an endless waste of both players' money and developer time that could otherwise be spend developing new zones/missions/queues etc. It's not that I don't understand game development, I have this thing called 'memory' as well as foresight.

    Your solution isn't a solution, it's merely dealing with the consequences of power creep while at the same time serving as a driver for even more of it.


    And for the record: no one is expecting players to gimp themselves. What I'm saying is that I'm all fine with players striving to reach hundreds of thousands of DPS when only a fraction of that is needed - but that's no reason to set the cycle described above in motion, thereby hitting everyone eventually and wasting developer time and resources that could also be used to do things that most of the playerbase would actually benefit from.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    Also, you haven't responded to another point I made earlier:

    Elite content already exists. But no one plays it, at least not the public queues - which is likely because those playing elite content want things to be a bit predictable, they want their team mates to be reliable.

    Which again is perfectly understandable. But it shows that there is a challenge for them, but they're not interested in it.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,774 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    valoreah wrote: »
    It's not progress if it inevitably leads to the need to

    - either nerf things - because too many difficulty levels exist or the range of what players can do in terms of damage gets out of hand, thereby opening up the possibility of trolling or one player clearing out entire mission's worth of enemies by himself
    - or if it's going to require constant tweaking to existing content.

    Promoting a situation where the game has to constantly undo or update things already released, constantly being forced to look to the past basically, isn't progress.

    I honestly do not think you understand how game development works. Why do you think MMOs raise level caps and create new zones for the new level cap content? Or do you believe the idea is for players to reach level and gear caps and continue to just play lower level content for little to now reward?
    And I'm not blaming players for collecting 'top tier gear and skills'. I'm blaming the players for doing those things and then complaining that everything is too easy.

    Again, I do not think you are seeing the forest for the trees. Players that have reached level/gear caps not having sufficient content that is designed for level/gear caps is a legitimate concern. Not furthering the game progression and development is stagnation, not progress.
    The game can be as difficult as the player wants it to be. No one forces players to stack as many EPG consoles as possible or use tons of traits for continuous uptime of extensively modified powers for example. That's all the result of them making their own choices.

    Expecting the player to find ways to gimp themselves or not strive to improve because the game lacks more challenging content is just plain ridiculous.
    Anyway, my main point was that adding new difficulty levels isn't going to solve anything, because it will just reinforce the thing (namely, power creep) that drives the need for such new levels. In other words, it's self-defeating.

    So if I am understanding you, your thinking is that games should never progress with regard to levels or raid content tiers or anything of the sort? What is the reward incentive to continue to play for?

    No one claimed that games shouldn't progress.

    What I'm pointing out is that only adding more difficulty levels in itself isn't progress because it will only lead to a never ending cycle of either needing to add more of those, or nerfing things to bring people back to the existing difficulties.

    You know as well as I do that this is exactly what happened with Delta Rising for example.

    The old Elite missions were suddenly called Advanced, yet more difficult to complete for most people. They didn't like that, so the Devs needed to spend time tweaking all sorts of stuff (effectiveness of weapons at Mk 12, 13 and 14, effectiveness of Borg shield drains, their speed boosts and so on), players needed to be given all sorts of ways to improve, requiring a lot of spending only to be able to complete the content that until a few weeks earlier, they already could finish.

    That is what introducing more difficult content will only do in the longer term. More power creep - because you can't justify creating things that no one is able to play or complete - with the Devs eventually realising they need to combat the excessive power which in turn will mostly have consequences for the average player - because those dealing 600k DPS will still be able to finish their missions, while those who were just good enough for a certain difficulty level, will no longer be.

    It is nothing but an endless waste of both players' money and developer time that could otherwise be spend developing new zones/missions/queues etc. It's not that I don't understand game development, I have this thing called 'memory' as well as foresight.

    Your solution isn't a solution, it's merely dealing with the consequences of power creep while at the same time serving as a driver for even more of it.


    And for the record: no one is expecting players to gimp themselves. What I'm saying is that I'm all fine with players striving to reach hundreds of thousands of DPS when only a fraction of that is needed - but that's no reason to set the cycle described above in motion, thereby hitting everyone eventually and wasting developer time and resources that could also be used to do things that most of the playerbase would actually benefit from.

    Another good point, I agree, people would demand for more powerful weapons and gear, for a while alot of players were using the Herald Staff, now It's rarely used much because it's no longer the Meta, now people use the portable phaser cannon, If players really wanted a challenge they would stop using the most OP weapons and gear in game and use low level gear with weapons that don't one shot every enemy they come across, if you want a more a challenging experience then build a TFO forces players use a loadout that they didn't give their character, it's going to go the same way people are currently going on and complaining on Reddit about how the Inquisitor isn't their character.

    TDLR: If you really want a challenge, you are going to have take control and force players to play your way, their playstyle is the reason, why it's not challenging for you.
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