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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,961 Arc User
    This is limitedly true - new uniforms have been added, just not as many as back when we still also got them through reputations and so on.

    Personally, I don't see the added value as much in adding even more costumes or weapon types since, at some point, acquiring yet another set simply renders something you already owned more or less obsolete. There's a big reduction in marginal value here, which is also true for ships to some extent (at least those can come with unique consoles or new mechanisms).

    You assume everyone has been playing forever and collected everything. The fact is, the new series are bringing new people into the game because they want to make a character that follows their favorite Trek series, but, (for example) if someone wants to make a Strange New Worlds based character uniform; the current uniforms (as shown in S1 of SNW), DO NOT EXIST as a selectable uniform in the game; so that may disappoint a new player wanting to make that type of character.
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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 3,869 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    This is limitedly true - new uniforms have been added, just not as many as back when we still also got them through reputations and so on.

    Personally, I don't see the added value as much in adding even more costumes or weapon types since, at some point, acquiring yet another set simply renders something you already owned more or less obsolete. There's a big reduction in marginal value here, which is also true for ships to some extent (at least those can come with unique consoles or new mechanisms).

    You assume everyone has been playing forever and collected everything. The fact is, the new series are bringing new people into the game because they want to make a character that follows their favorite Trek series, but, (for example) if someone wants to make a Strange New Worlds based character uniform; the current uniforms (as shown in S1 of SNW), DO NOT EXIST as a selectable uniform in the game; so that may disappoint a new player wanting to make that type of character.

    I did not assume that. What I was pointing out is that there are already many costumes available and that each new addition will at some point reduce the value of things people do own or the addition itself will have lower marginal value (you can only use so many uniforms at once, after all).

    You are correct, though, that some things are not available and that people who come into the game might be looking for these things. As I noted earlier though: for newer players STO is probably fascinating enough that the absence of a particular uniform won't have that much of a negative impact in how they experience the game.

    At least, that's what I vaguely remember from all those years ago. I saw many things (ships, environments, missions and yes, outfits too) that could be explored - I didn't notice the things that weren't there.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 4,713 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    This is limitedly true - new uniforms have been added, just not as many as back when we still also got them through reputations and so on.

    Personally, I don't see the added value as much in adding even more costumes or weapon types since, at some point, acquiring yet another set simply renders something you already owned more or less obsolete. There's a big reduction in marginal value here, which is also true for ships to some extent (at least those can come with unique consoles or new mechanisms).

    You assume everyone has been playing forever and collected everything. The fact is, the new series are bringing new people into the game because they want to make a character that follows their favorite Trek series, but, (for example) if someone wants to make a Strange New Worlds based character uniform; the current uniforms (as shown in S1 of SNW), DO NOT EXIST as a selectable uniform in the game; so that may disappoint a new player wanting to make that type of character.

    From comments in the streams, it seems the character artists are the shortest staffed of any of the departments (just two people iirc), so the delay is not surprising, especially when you consider that they are not only making clothing but also any new characters and creatures you see in new content.

    As for not noticing that particular uniforms are missing, it depends on what you want to play as, if it is the particular uniform your character would use then yes, it is VERY noticeable despite whatever else is.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 3,869 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    jcsww wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    protoneous wrote: »
    Love the thread title.

    What I'd like to see is optional stuff like cosmetics put on hold for a while to enable an increased focus on adding more raid-like content.

    And what are character or ship artists supposed to do then? Sit on their hands?

    This is why I don't agree with anyone saying to put a stop to one element to focus on another. You have staff who are dedicated to that element that people want put on hold, which means they don't do anything. Its like when people call for a full stop on anything but bug fixing. What is an Environmental Artist supposed to do? They don't do code, they do Environments. Asking an Environmental Artist to do bug squishing in the code is like asking a Dentist to perform open heart surgery. Medical professional yes, but wrong specialization.

    There's more than half of the uniforms/costumes that need updating and need to be fixed from clipping with other costume parts and characters. There is easily enough work there to keep them busy for years to come.

    I think it's important to remember something. Most of those clipping issues exist because uniforms that were not created together (ie, the creation of one uniform wasn't done with another one in mind), are now used in combination.

    And while it's a great thing that players enjoy more freedom / have more options in what they can combine nowadays - it also means that there are going to be issues.
    Because I doubt that the devs responsible for adding new uniforms are going to go back to everything else they previously created to ensure it all fits.

    I think that to some extent players have to accept that if they want to combine things that weren't created with the intention of being combined with all sorts of entirely different clothing, there are going to be issues.

    We can expect part 1 of uniform A to properly combine with part 2 of uniform A - but there is no reason why part 1 of uniform A should fit nicely with part 2 of uniform D. It's nice that the Devs try to make parts interchangable - but I don't consider it an obligation of Cryptic to ensure that this is the case.

    And either way, it certainly isn't reasonable to expect those Devs to basically just cease all efforts of creating new things and only going back over things they already made years ago. Because at some point they'll likely just leave, if that's going to be their job from now on.

    Remember: they are artists. They need to be able to create stuff and work with their imagination.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,339 Arc User
    TL;DR but i did see ugly ships. that's a matter of perspective. I may scream if there is another version of the Galaxy issued, but that doesn't mean no one else does.

    Make ground combat more FPS.. un, NO. not everyone likes FPS and if you want it just press B on the keyboard and have a nice day. more weapons/FX.. I'd like to see more weapon types, Cold, Radiation fire, but we have enough phasers and AP weapons and polaron.. Tet and maybe disruptors could use love.

    overall comment, OP you are not the only person playing. Most of the changes you want are to suit your personal preferences, so i do hope it gets absolutely no consideration, since what you want is pretty much diametrically opposed to my desiers in game play.

    also, most of your suggestions are not financially feasible, such as bridges. they have had bridges in the C store sine day one. guess what are not great sellers? bridges. that's why they don't sell them anymore. when you look at the balance sheet, Cryptic and gearbox are companies. they are not going to do stuff that doesn't make money
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  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,663 Arc User
    jcsww wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    protoneous wrote: »
    Love the thread title.

    What I'd like to see is optional stuff like cosmetics put on hold for a while to enable an increased focus on adding more raid-like content.

    And what are character or ship artists supposed to do then? Sit on their hands?

    This is why I don't agree with anyone saying to put a stop to one element to focus on another. You have staff who are dedicated to that element that people want put on hold, which means they don't do anything. Its like when people call for a full stop on anything but bug fixing. What is an Environmental Artist supposed to do? They don't do code, they do Environments. Asking an Environmental Artist to do bug squishing in the code is like asking a Dentist to perform open heart surgery. Medical professional yes, but wrong specialization.

    There's more than half of the uniforms/costumes that need updating and need to be fixed from clipping with other costume parts and characters. There is easily enough work there to keep them busy for years to come.

    I think it's important to remember something. Most of those clipping issues exist because uniforms that were not created together (ie, the creation of one uniform wasn't done with another one in mind), are now used in combination.

    And while it's a great thing that players enjoy more freedom / have more options in what they can combine nowadays - it also means that there are going to be issues.
    Because I doubt that the devs responsible for adding new uniforms are going to go back to everything else they previously created to ensure it all fits.

    I think that to some extent players have to accept that if they want to combine things that weren't created with the intention of being combined with all sorts of entirely different clothing, there are going to be issues.

    We can expect part 1 of uniform A to properly combine with part 2 of uniform A - but there is no reason why part 1 of uniform A should fit nicely with part 2 of uniform D. It's nice that the Devs try to make parts interchangable - but I don't consider it an obligation of Cryptic to ensure that this is the case.

    And either way, it certainly isn't reasonable to expect those Devs to basically just cease all efforts of creating new things and only going back over things they already made years ago. Because at some point they'll likely just leave, if that's going to be their job from now on.

    Remember: they are artists. They need to be able to create stuff and work with their imagination.

    Combinations definitely cause some issues but when they don't test shirts or jackets on particular races, like Cardassians as an example. The Open Jacket Terran DSC outfit doesn't show the chest and one of the collared ones clips right through the neck. Considering that is one of the newer outfits, it just shows how little time they actually spend on trying to make them usable outside of the stock Fed Human. Why have a premium race when the only thing premium about it is, that your toon is plagued with more costume issues?!?
  • captainbmoneycaptainbmoney Member Posts: 1,323 Arc User
    I'm just going to make a thread for my first response...

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  • captainperkinscaptainperkins Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    Update:

    After some thought I think I'm just craving more STO, new STO.

    (Flaming, trolling, accusatory comments moderated out. - BMR)

    *I do think there's less new content in total- but the new content that does come is the best content so far.

    *I miss the old days of each story arc being more involved and new game mechanics being added.

    *I also have anxiety that STO wont be around forever- and I want it to be refit to be more attractive to modern/younger gamers.

    (Flaming, trolling comments moderated out. - BMR)

    The rest of my tone and suggestions are probably just death anxiety.
    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,878 Arc User

    *I also have anxiety that STO wont be around forever- and I want it to be refit to be more attractive to modern/younger gamers.

    They did refit the game to be more attractive......by dumbing it down......ALOT. There is nothing more they can do, because dumbing it down anymore, or giving out even more goodies means there really is no point in playing the game because it will do it for you and you'll end up adding more unnecessary inflation to the game. The draw to the game is the fact of the effect of the new TV series, it doesn't need anything more. The game is massively generous, and walks you through, practically hand-holds you through the learning process enough for folk to start being self-sufficient after.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • captainperkinscaptainperkins Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited November 2022

    You don't get it....

    There is a game that is the most popular game on Earth, and has been for a long time and for a good reason.
    It's a simple game but it's replay value is quite high because it leaves the skill level in the hands of the user...

    Star Trek Online could easily adapt that quality to itself. I'm not talking about "dumbing it down."
    Im talking about up-scaling its adaptability and playability!

    We need genuinely exploratory space that can be a fertile ground for starbase development that includes actual structures that can be built by teams and destroyed by competing factions...

    We need a totally new ground combat system.

    We need some space weather.

    That's three simple solutions in concept which will take a lot to do but it can be done and it will give the company 15 more years of life (very lucrative life.)

    You can't see the vision which is fine. You might not understand what I'm talking about...





    leemwatson wrote: »

    *I also have anxiety that STO wont be around forever- and I want it to be refit to be more attractive to modern/younger gamers.

    They did refit the game to be more attractive......by dumbing it down......ALOT. There is nothing more they can do, because dumbing it down anymore, or giving out even more goodies means there really is no point in playing the game because it will do it for you and you'll end up adding more unnecessary inflation to the game. The draw to the game is the fact of the effect of the new TV series, it doesn't need anything more. The game is massively generous, and walks you through, practically hand-holds you through the learning process enough for folk to start being self-sufficient after.

  • captainperkinscaptainperkins Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    "Un NO"- You misunderstand something fundamental here... I am not speaking from "personal want," I am speaking from a core fan of STAR TREK.

    Star Trek is centred around the United Federation of Planets. We want to make the game at the core of it's heart to reflect star trek. Do we want Photon launchers and flame throwers? - SURE, but those aren't the main weapons in star trek.

    As for not wanting the game to be a First Person Shoorter (FPS), (Flaming, trolling comments moderated out. - BMR)... Literally EVERYONE i bring to the game complains about ground combat. It's SO mindless. It needs to have a mix between genuine skill based aiming and dodging (only given by genuine FPS), and weapon type/combat style.

    The dynamics on the battle field open up when it's a FPS. Maybe you've had very bad experience with that level of gameplay, but when you hold a Phaser or a flame thrower or whatever you think you want, and you are playing alongside team mates in an inspiring environment- YOU will LIKE FPS. FPS is what it's all about.

    the ground combat as is, is an absolute joke.... It was always a complaint from day one. We just tolerated it. But now it's 12 years later and enough is enough.

    I speak as a very casual, even rare gamer.

    TL;DR but i did see ugly ships. that's a matter of perspective. I may scream if there is another version of the Galaxy issued, but that doesn't mean no one else does.

    Make ground combat more FPS.. un, NO. not everyone likes FPS and if you want it just press B on the keyboard and have a nice day. more weapons/FX.. I'd like to see more weapon types, Cold, Radiation fire, but we have enough phasers and AP weapons and polaron.. Tet and maybe disruptors could use love.

    overall comment, OP you are not the only person playing. Most of the changes you want are to suit your personal preferences, so i do hope it gets absolutely no consideration, since what you want is pretty much diametrically opposed to my desiers in game play.

    also, most of your suggestions are not financially feasible, such as bridges. they have had bridges in the C store sine day one. guess what are not great sellers? bridges. that's why they don't sell them anymore. when you look at the balance sheet, Cryptic and gearbox are companies. they are not going to do stuff that doesn't make money

    Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,878 Arc User
    You don't get it....

    There is a game that is the most popular game on Earth, and has been for a long time and for a good reason.
    It's a simple game but it's replay value is quite high because it leaves the skill level in the hands of the user...

    Star Trek Online could easily adapt that quality to itself. I'm not talking about "dumbing it down."
    Im talking about up-scaling its adaptability and playability!

    We need genuinely exploratory space that can be a fertile ground for starbase development that includes actual structures that can be built by teams and destroyed by competing factions...

    We need a totally new ground combat system.

    We need some space weather.

    That's three simple solutions in concept which will take a lot to do but it can be done and it will give the company 15 more years of life (very lucrative life.)

    You can't see the vision which is fine. You might not understand what I'm talking about...





    leemwatson wrote: »

    *I also have anxiety that STO wont be around forever- and I want it to be refit to be more attractive to modern/younger gamers.

    They did refit the game to be more attractive......by dumbing it down......ALOT. There is nothing more they can do, because dumbing it down anymore, or giving out even more goodies means there really is no point in playing the game because it will do it for you and you'll end up adding more unnecessary inflation to the game. The draw to the game is the fact of the effect of the new TV series, it doesn't need anything more. The game is massively generous, and walks you through, practically hand-holds you through the learning process enough for folk to start being self-sufficient after.

    I do get it, and I do see it, the problem is you are trying to regress what Star Trek weapons, space and ground can actually do. There is no need to take a leaf from Fortnight because it bears no resemblance to this game. You don't need to go running around, because you can just use a TR rifle to beam a bolt through meters of rock, or call a strike in from the ship....though it would be great if the environment was destructible, however, again, it would need a complete rebuild, most likely with a new engine, of which this idea has been nixxed time and time again by Cryptic. Doing it like Fortnight would be a waste of resources. If you want FPS, just run around AIMING and you'll get that experience.

    And there is the fact that Star Trek is more about the space combat than recycling the old ground-combat done in numerous TV and Films. Aside from Stargate SG1 and Star Wars, no other series/film really dealt with starship combat. That's why folk like Star trek.....and the odd bit of exposition from characters. They are not watching it for ground combat....which rarely ever gets proper screen time, and the only big ground battles happened in DS9. The ship is as much the lead character as the lead character is.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 8,622 Community Moderator
    OP, you've doubled down twice on the rhetoric that I've now had to moderate out again. You're obviously free to express your opinions and criticism of the game, but if the insults and accusations towards devs and other players continue I will be forced to close this thread.
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  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,663 Arc User
    I don't mind the ground combat but it is easy and can get boring. When fighting Borg, I expect waves of enemies that get harder. Not all ground needs to use the same formula though. Event he same applies to space. Do we need a few dozen waves of enemies in every mission? Not in my opinion. It would be nice if there could be the optional environmental hazard thrown in that you could use to help defeat some enemies or choose not to and mow them down yourself. The space walk mission on the outside of DS9 is different. Long, but at least it's different for that part of it. The very easy maze of Jefferies Tubes when rescuing the Enterprise C was also a nice change.

    One thing the game lacks in my opinion, is the ability to play as the enemy. I get that most people are here for Fed's Online. I have had some fleet mates that literally had a dozen characters, all Fed, and couldn't be bothered with anything else. I like the look of the new Terran ESD. That could easily be a social map for a Terran faction. We have plenty of Terran themed ships to buy already in the C-Store and in lock/promo boxes. All it would need is some mission content and a portal or some way into the main STO universe. I always thought the option to side with the Tal Shiar instead of the Republic was a missed opportunity as well. We have next to nothing for Strange New Worlds content so far and a chance to get some of those amazing actors to lend their talents to the game as well. Talking to the Federation Supply Crates in the original Khitomer STF was some great dialog! :D I wish the original STF's would be returned to the game in their full (both space and ground) combination with some new rewards. They were good content for their time.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,479 Community Moderator
    leemwatson wrote: »
    And there is the fact that Star Trek is more about the space combat than recycling the old ground-combat done in numerous TV and Films. Aside from Stargate SG1 and Star Wars, no other series/film really dealt with starship combat. That's why folk like Star trek.....and the odd bit of exposition from characters. They are not watching it for ground combat....which rarely ever gets proper screen time, and the only big ground battles happened in DS9. The ship is as much the lead character as the lead character is.

    Well... there was also Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica (both versions), Wing Commander (doubt very many people know there was an old cartoon as well as a movie besides the games)...

    As for Ground combat, there's only a few Star Trek games that portray that, chief among them being the two Elite Force games. But here's the thing, STO is not a shooter. Its an RPG. So the combat style will align more with games like TOR or even FF14 (there are ranged DPS classes in FF14 like Machinist) rather than Fortnite or Elite Force. The only game that kinda bridged RPG and Shooter was Mass Effect. And unfortunately I don't think the game engine can support that kind of gameplay.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 4,713 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    Berman has said in interviews that they tried to avoid armed ground combat whenever possible in the shows because in order for them to do the "tool" uses of the weapons (like disintegrating door-sized holes in bunker walls, clearing cave-ins, heating large rocks to glowing, etc.) meant they were just too ridiculously overpowered to do firearm-style combat realistically.

    In fact, if you listen to the technobabble in The Mind's Eye and do the math it turns out that (from a raw energy standpoint) the amount of energy that comes out of the emitter of one of those SMG-sized phaser-3s from the early part of TNG is about the same as the muzzle energy per second of the combined output of four M2 .50cal machine guns firing full auto in antiaircraft configuration (which is actually a bit low for the effects they showed when using the phasers as tools). And all that is packaged in an easy to carry weapon that is capable of keeping up that rate of fire for at least the fifty seconds or so they showed one firing on the test bench in that episode and probably longer since it did not run out of energy, they just shut it off after the tests were done.

    With that kind of power (and the fact that phasers have the creeping disintegration and stun effects) it would be irrelevant where you hit a person with one, STO already takes considerable liberties for playability purposes in making it take several shots instead of all of them being one-shot kill or stun like the shows.
  • gurluasgurluas Member Posts: 464 Arc User
    I kinda agree that the development has been slow and inconsistent. I miss the era of big expansions. Delta Rising, Victory is Life, Legacy of Romulus, etc.

    Instead we get a mission or two every 6 months.
    As much as the Patrols in Delta Rising were annoying, it actually helped a lot having to work to level up and unlocking the story instead of rushing through it.


    I also dislike the incessant focus on the new shows. Why? Because outside of Picard those shows are set like two centuries before the game. It's as if people started wearing 17th century military uniforms today and suddenly began to ride horse carriages and carry muskets.

    Stick to the time period we're in. We have like 2 time traveling starts by now and that is a little ridiculous especially since those starts are like 15 years apart canonically.
    References to the other shows isn't a bad thing as much as I dislike the new trek, but it feels like every since Discovery came out, original content has almost dried up, and this game has just been stories focused on the new shows.

    Admittedly, I do enjoy the current Mirror universe story and look forward for more. I just wish we could go back to getting expansions inbetween the content drought.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,533 Arc User
    Am I the ONLY one who loved the ground stuff around here? :o
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  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 1,370 Arc User
    Am I the ONLY one who loved the ground stuff around here? :o

    No, i quite enjoy the ground aspect of STO.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 8,622 Community Moderator
    I happen to enjoy ground as well. 🤷‍♀️
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,821 Arc User
    Enjoy might be too strong of a word but I think STO does ranged combat decently well considering the style of gameplay, while FF14 and WoW do have ranged DPS classes (Bard, Machinist and Dancer for FF14 and Hunter for WoW) though you can see the limits of that style of in them (and more clearly in SWTOR) where the ranges are tiny to point the effective range of even sniper rifles are around 50 meters or less.

    That said I'd say that the resources of the devs are better served in reducing the things that make current ground combat so clunky like excessive use animation locking, rather then trying to turn STO into the latest fad that's probably over by the time work needed to do so is done.
  • captainperkinscaptainperkins Member Posts: 374 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    OP, you've doubled down twice on the rhetoric that I've now had to moderate out again. You're obviously free to express your opinions and criticism of the game, but if the insults and accusations towards devs and other players continue I will be forced to close this thread.

    Im sorry I don't know where I insulted or accused devs or other players of anything untoward.

    Send me a PM if you have time please to let me know what I said specifically as it's now gone so I can't remember. I can't avoid something I don't know. My posts don't look very different to me. I'll check my messages.


    @spiritborn Yeah this is the impasse STO is at. "Is it a WOW/FF14 style game?" or can it be more?

    First person shooters are not the latest fad... I have to push back on this. FPS has been around since the dawn of 3D gaming.
    The most popular games on Earth have a realistic FPS aspect to them. They are not going away.

    Star Trek Online was originally intended to be a lot more like a FPS. Something like Pulsar: Lost Colony.

    Star Trek Voyager Elite Force 1 & 2, as well as Bridge Commander were pretty just top tier Star Trek Games from around the golden era of trek. STO was intending to blend the two types of game into one, and for the most part they succeeded.

    Due to a sudden change in companies early on in development, STO got a different engine and had a tight timeline to crunch things together.


    Ultimately it's up to the Devs and Gearbox they keep telling themselves that the game is fine as is, and the ground combat is not meant to be FPS, but every single younger person I introduce to the game complains about it.

    A good example of a free to play game that mixes air and ground is WarThunder... I don't know why I didn't realize it until now. Sure ground combat in War Thunder is a tank. But the principles are there, and both Air and Ground do require manual aiming.

    The "AIM" in star trek online isn't real... it still auto targets enemies.

    I will always support STO, but I am being honest that most people I try to bring into it are completely turned off by ground combat. It's just a space bar masher. Sure it's fun using combo's but not being able to run, dodge and aim (authentically) with actual hard points like arms, chest, legs, head shots etc. leaves the game feeling very dated and unrealistic.


  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,878 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    And there is the fact that Star Trek is more about the space combat than recycling the old ground-combat done in numerous TV and Films. Aside from Stargate SG1 and Star Wars, no other series/film really dealt with starship combat. That's why folk like Star trek.....and the odd bit of exposition from characters. They are not watching it for ground combat....which rarely ever gets proper screen time, and the only big ground battles happened in DS9. The ship is as much the lead character as the lead character is.

    Well... there was also Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica (both versions), Wing Commander (doubt very many people know there was an old cartoon as well as a movie besides the games)...

    As for Ground combat, there's only a few Star Trek games that portray that, chief among them being the two Elite Force games. But here's the thing, STO is not a shooter. Its an RPG. So the combat style will align more with games like TOR or even FF14 (there are ranged DPS classes in FF14 like Machinist) rather than Fortnite or Elite Force. The only game that kinda bridged RPG and Shooter was Mass Effect. And unfortunately I don't think the game engine can support that kind of gameplay.

    Oh my god!!! I can't believe I forgot BSG, but B5 I really struggled to watch it, and the CGI was so bad back then, so never really rated it's space combat compared to ST's model based shots, and OG BSG reused the same 4 or 5 shots so many times that really spoils it if you binge watch the series; you have to watch one episode a week like the olden-days....:lol: I had no idea WC did a cartoon!! I love those WC games and still play them now and again.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,878 Arc User
    edited November 2022
    OP, you've doubled down twice on the rhetoric that I've now had to moderate out again. You're obviously free to express your opinions and criticism of the game, but if the insults and accusations towards devs and other players continue I will be forced to close this thread.

    Im sorry I don't know where I insulted or accused devs or other players of anything untoward.

    Send me a PM if you have time please to let me know what I said specifically as it's now gone so I can't remember. I can't avoid something I don't know. My posts don't look very different to me. I'll check my messages.


    @spiritborn Yeah this is the impasse STO is at. "Is it a WOW/FF14 style game?" or can it be more?

    First person shooters are not the latest fad... I have to push back on this. FPS has been around since the dawn of 3D gaming.
    The most popular games on Earth have a realistic FPS aspect to them. They are not going away.

    Star Trek Online was originally intended to be a lot more like a FPS. Something like Pulsar: Lost Colony.

    Star Trek Voyager Elite Force 1 & 2, as well as Bridge Commander were pretty just top tier Star Trek Games from around the golden era of trek. STO was intending to blend the two types of game into one, and for the most part they succeeded.

    Due to a sudden change in companies early on in development, STO got a different engine and had a tight timeline to crunch things together.


    Ultimately it's up to the Devs and Gearbox they keep telling themselves that the game is fine as is, and the ground combat is not meant to be FPS, but every single younger person I introduce to the game complains about it.

    A good example of a free to play game that mixes air and ground is WarThunder... I don't know why I didn't realize it until now. Sure ground combat in War Thunder is a tank. But the principles are there, and both Air and Ground do require manual aiming.

    The "AIM" in star trek online isn't real... it still auto targets enemies.

    I will always support STO, but I am being honest that most people I try to bring into it are completely turned off by ground combat. It's just a space bar masher. Sure it's fun using combo's but not being able to run, dodge and aim (authentically) with actual hard points like arms, chest, legs, head shots etc. leaves the game feeling very dated and unrealistic.


    The AIM in STO does auto-target when you are facing an enemy and it doesn't auto-target when there is nothing around, so you can run around in AIM, but the thinking around the game needing 'hard-points' is 100% irrelevant when you are using energy weapons. You can stun someone unconcious and even disintegrate someone even if you just hit the arm. The energy weapons have a systemic effect because that's what they are designed to do, because quite frankly, you want the 'fight' to finish in the fastest, most efficient way possible. Why would you want to just 'disable' someone's arm or leg when you can just stun the person unconcious with as little torturous intent as possible.

    As I said before, what you want would be fine for laser or ballistic armed combat, like in Fallout, but it utterly pointless and not realistic in the 25th century of Star Trek, and has so been since stun-settings were 'invented' in Enterprise. 1 person with a phaser on wide setting stun can take out an entire room of people with just 1 shot, without causing physical injury......yes, I know it's different in-game, but you have to see why it's a waste of time adding hard-points.

    STO is a 'theme-park RPG' (Dev's words, not mine), not a FPS. It really does not need FPS because of all the awesome, and often blinding amount of tools we can use. If the game did not give you all these kits and powers, your premise would work. In fact, bizarrely, STO's 3rd person ground combat is more 'realistic' because you get a far superior sense of what's around you when you are not using the extremely limited view of FPS, which is more toward how we perceive in real life; FPS aim modes can't replicate it unless you are using VR or at least a 3 screen-set-up with 5.1 surround sound to give you peripheral vision and hearing.

    Simplicity, in this case, trumps the (unnecessary) complexity you want.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 3,869 Arc User
    Berman has said in interviews that they tried to avoid armed ground combat whenever possible in the shows because in order for them to do the "tool" uses of the weapons (like disintegrating door-sized holes in bunker walls, clearing cave-ins, heating large rocks to glowing, etc.) meant they were just too ridiculously overpowered to do firearm-style combat realistically.

    In fact, if you listen to the technobabble in The Mind's Eye and do the math it turns out that (from a raw energy standpoint) the amount of energy that comes out of the emitter of one of those SMG-sized phaser-3s from the early part of TNG is about the same as the muzzle energy per second of the combined output of four M2 .50cal machine guns firing full auto in antiaircraft configuration (which is actually a bit low for the effects they showed when using the phasers as tools). And all that is packaged in an easy to carry weapon that is capable of keeping up that rate of fire for at least the fifty seconds or so they showed one firing on the test bench in that episode and probably longer since it did not run out of energy, they just shut it off after the tests were done.

    With that kind of power (and the fact that phasers have the creeping disintegration and stun effects) it would be irrelevant where you hit a person with one, STO already takes considerable liberties for playability purposes in making it take several shots instead of all of them being one-shot kill or stun like the shows.

    To be fair, in Berman's time there were no personal shields in Star Trek. One of the liberties STO has taken, is adding those.

    So technically, it wouldn't be that strange to have ground combat where it matters how and when you hit an enemy.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 3,869 Arc User
    Am I the ONLY one who loved the ground stuff around here? :o

    I did enjoy ground play a lot in the past.

    That was before they added all these shield-ignoring effects that made many weapons pretty much useless and kit modules that are basically additional players, shooting/killing everything before you get a chance to fire (like armies of Borg drones, security escorts, moving drones and turrets that cover large areas and sometimes even kill in all directions at once).

    It was also when most ground maps required a player to move - so that any of the things mentioned above weren't having that much of an impact on what other players could do. Compare missions like the old Borg ones, Colony invasion and Starbase Incursion with newer ones such as Operation Wolf, Pahvo Dissension or even Sompek. A lot of the newer maps are small ones where the biggest part of the mission requires you to stay in the same small area for a longer period of time (with the occasional move to the next one).

    That has made ground combat much less dynamic - and also added the possibility to activate many different powers that kill enemies as soon as they appear.

    I liked ground combat a lot before. Now I feel that in most missions, there's not even much reason to do anything because the content will pretty much complete itself so long as you click one of the abilities on your tray every now and then. It's become much like space combat, which I always considered the part of the game made for automatons (no offense intended here, I feel this is the most concise way of describing it).
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 3,869 Arc User
    To give just one example of how much ground combat has been dumbed down / made easier to the point you might as well lean back and watch it complete itself:

    I joined a Sompek PUG a few days before. Most enemies died before I could even look at them due to all the things mentioned in my post above. We made it past round 100.

    And this mission is supposed to be the hardest, the most challenging. A PUG utterly destroyed whatever was thrown at us, which should make it clear there's a problem.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,878 Arc User
    To give just one example of how much ground combat has been dumbed down / made easier to the point you might as well lean back and watch it complete itself:

    I joined a Sompek PUG a few days before. Most enemies died before I could even look at them due to all the things mentioned in my post above. We made it past round 100.

    And this mission is supposed to be the hardest, the most challenging. A PUG utterly destroyed whatever was thrown at us, which should make it clear there's a problem.

    Precisely. We have way too many tools to make FPS even a remote possibility. Imagine the 'rage' if Cryptic nerfed into the ground or even took these away to satisfy and implement OP's suggestion, because it is the only way to make FPS work correctly in STO. What is the point of it if I can drop exothermic, stasis, freeze-bomb and agony field before they can even react. Especially in these days where folk want rewards in as quick as time as possible, FPS in STO would be obsolete within seconds of it going live because folk will take the line of least resistance.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 4,713 Arc User
    Having aiming aids built into the weapons may be "dumbing combat down" if you look at it from a strictly shooter viewpoint but from an RP and canon viewpoint not having it is dumbing down the technology since they obviously have them in the shows for all the off-axis firing they do. Both Roddenberry and Berman mentioned eye-tracking and sensor aiming capabilities at conventions and interviews and whatnot, so why wouldn't a game based on those shows use a system to emulate it?

    In fact, Berman talked about a scene in DS9 where they were fighting in a cargo loading/processing dock and to resolve the discrepancy between what they always showed what the weapons could do and the needs of a typical Hollywood gun battle, they added dialog explaining that some of the containers were hazardous material models that were disintegration resistant so they actually could use them for cover to cross the room.

    Without those containers the enemy not only could have deprived them of cover by switching to the right setting, but if they were touching the containers when they were disintegrated the creeping/conductive nature of that setting could take them out at the same time.

    Anyway, Berman said that all too often they had to just ignore stuff like that because they couldn't figure out how to do it more realistically without ruining the scene they were choreographing, but that it always bugged him when they had to ignore it.

    I just figure that STO compromises in the same way for the sake of playability, so the weapons have at least some of that eye-following and/or sensor-aiming capability shown in the shows (imagine trying to do precision aiming with a dustbuster phaser without it or any sort of physical sights) but fudge the power down even more than the shows did.

    Since I very often have to jump up and do something afk at unpredictable times I rarely do any kind of group scenario except PUGs. Having a PUG group wafflestomp Sompek like that is not incredibly common but it happens more often than you seem to think. It just depends on who is in the PUG and what their skill and gear are like.

    And the skills needed for MMORPG style combat are different from those needed for a first person shooter, they revolve more on situational awareness, rotations, and efficient cooldown mitigation techniques than they do aiming skill and maneuver like FPS games.

    I don't have a shooter in the mix of games I play since Defiance went down, and I do miss the combat style, but Star Trek does not really lend itself well to a full out shooter style since the shows tend to feature a more tricksy style like you get with the kit modules and other powers rather than a gun-centric one.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,479 Community Moderator
    leemwatson wrote: »
    Oh my god!!! I can't believe I forgot BSG, but B5 I really struggled to watch it, and the CGI was so bad back then, so never really rated it's space combat compared to ST's model based shots, and OG BSG reused the same 4 or 5 shots so many times that really spoils it if you binge watch the series; you have to watch one episode a week like the olden-days....:lol: I had no idea WC did a cartoon!! I love those WC games and still play them now and again.

    B5 was one of the pioneers of CGI, so yea it is bad by today's standards, but back then it allowed for maneuvers that couldn't be done with physical models. Hell the Starfury was designed with realistic Neutonian Physics in mind, and is still considered one of the best starfighter designs in sci-fi. BSG TOS used the recycled shots to cut costs, something a lot of shows did, but not to the same extent.

    The cartoon is Wing Commander Academy, and I believe Mark Hamill and Malcolm McDowell did VO work for it.
    Having aiming aids built into the weapons may be "dumbing combat down" if you look at it from a strictly shooter viewpoint but from an RP and canon viewpoint not having it is dumbing down the technology since they obviously have them in the shows for all the off-axis firing they do. Both Roddenberry and Berman mentioned eye-tracking and sensor aiming capabilities at conventions and interviews and whatnot, so why wouldn't a game based on those shows use a system to emulate it?

    In fact, Berman talked about a scene in DS9 where they were fighting in a cargo loading/processing dock and to resolve the discrepancy between what they always showed what the weapons could do and the needs of a typical Hollywood gun battle, they added dialog explaining that some of the containers were hazardous material models that were disintegration resistant so they actually could use them for cover to cross the room.

    Without those containers the enemy not only could have deprived them of cover by switching to the right setting, but if they were touching the containers when they were disintegrated the creeping/conductive nature of that setting could take them out at the same time.

    Anyway, Berman said that all too often they had to just ignore stuff like that because they couldn't figure out how to do it more realistically without ruining the scene they were choreographing, but that it always bugged him when they had to ignore it.

    I just figure that STO compromises in the same way for the sake of playability, so the weapons have at least some of that eye-following and/or sensor-aiming capability shown in the shows (imagine trying to do precision aiming with a dustbuster phaser without it or any sort of physical sights) but fudge the power down even more than the shows did.

    Since I very often have to jump up and do something afk at unpredictable times I rarely do any kind of group scenario except PUGs. Having a PUG group wafflestomp Sompek like that is not incredibly common but it happens more often than you seem to think. It just depends on who is in the PUG and what their skill and gear are like.

    And the skills needed for MMORPG style combat are different from those needed for a first person shooter, they revolve more on situational awareness, rotations, and efficient cooldown mitigation techniques than they do aiming skill and maneuver like FPS games.

    I don't have a shooter in the mix of games I play since Defiance went down, and I do miss the combat style, but Star Trek does not really lend itself well to a full out shooter style since the shows tend to feature a more tricksy style like you get with the kit modules and other powers rather than a gun-centric one.

    I do like how Elite Force handled ground combat. And we can also look at the Kelvin Timeline Star Trek game. But with the abilities we have we'd probably have to look more at something like Mass Effect. IF such a thing was possible to integrate into STO, which I honestly doubt. I believe some of the people behind Aliens: Fireteam Elite used to work for Cryptic and had hoped for a similar combat system in STO back in the day, which included cover mechanics. But again... STO is an RPG, and plays by RPG rules.

    And as for the gun battles... personally I'd take a bit of a page from Babylon 5, and the reason eveyone uses something like the Phased Plasma Gun. Weapons designed not to pierce the hull. Literally just splashes against metal. So maybe Star Trek energy weapons have a similar setting for when they're not being used as tools to blow through things because at the end of the day you're probably fighting inside a pressurized tin can in outer space. NO ONE wants to punch a hole in it.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
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