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On my comments last night

ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,674 Community Manager
Last night, I made a comment (well, a few comments) about internet rage cycles and how, psychologically, we feed off each other when we're upset. Seen a few comments this morning that make me think I did a terrible job explaining what I meant, so let me try again.

I said several times that people's concerns or reasons they might be upset with us or STO are valid. You are absolutely allowed to be upset at decisions we make, and I had no intention of dismissing those. The question I was asked is "why does it feel like STO is always TRIBBLE new players?" I answered that literally - it feels that way because of the internet. You get upset, validly, at a decision we make. While you're upset, you seek out other folks who are upset. And one person, emotionally, posts something dramatic and all encompassing, like "Cryptic doesn't care about new players." While being upset at a decision is valid, that statement, that Cryptic doesn't care about new players, is untrue. But, because we're upset, it *feels* true and it starts to propagate.

Then the people who read that comment start to comment the same thing, and it gets picked up, and starts to snowball until someone is angrily tweeting about how Cryptic has a conspiracy to drive players away or something. And this is the industry that bs artists thrive on.

You ever gone on YouTube and seen a video with a title like, "DISCOVERY A FAILURE! KURTZMAN GETTING FIRED?" Those are untrue, but those people are trying to make money off of being the first person to say something, to grab a rage swell so they can make money off hits.

Again, this doesn't mean that whatever you were upset about isn't valid. You are absolutely ok to not be ok with decisions we make. I was just cautioning against getting caught in the rage spirals that lead to real world hurt. Our brains are wired for community and for emotion, and it's incredibly easy for a desire to connect to be filled by a community of negativity. It's not a huge problem for STO, and we don't have the kind of click-bait problem that larger communities have, but it's still something to look out for. That's all.

I do want to apologize to anyone who thought I was targeting them or dismissing their concerns. Wasn't my intent, but doesn't make it feel better.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Comments

  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    I do want to apologize to anyone who thought I was targeting them or dismissing their concerns. Wasn't my intent, but doesn't make it feel better.
    And we're back to the whole "I'm sorry you felt that way" non-apology that is rightfully working less and less for anyone using it in these years.

    To say nothing of the whole thing basically saying "it's not our fault, it's solely the fault of those blowing things out of proportions, which is why we will sideline and not seriously discuss the issues people may have to focus on the negativity of the more vocal elements exaggerating stuff". Again.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    I've started to write a reply several times and then stopped, because I wasn't sure exactly how I wanted to express my thoughts. I guess the simplest way to say it is this:

    We all (and by "we" and "all" I mean "reasonable people") know that doom-ragers are bad. We all know it. There is no need to waste time just saying those people are bad; we get it.

    That said, those doom-ragers should not ever be used to dismiss real/valid criticism. I'm not saying Kael is doing that on purpose, but this entire situation was just one big distraction from the real concerns being raised. I mean, someone on chat asked a badly worded question; something like "why does it seem like Cryptic always makes it harder for new players?".

    Yes, it was badly worded. Of course Cryptic isn't trying to do that. But instead of addressing the real concern (these changes might make it harder for new players) we get all this drama about people on youtube.

    So here is my suggestion to Kael: next time you're on the livestream, if someone asks a question that isn't worded perfectly but has a valid concern behind it, just overlook the poor wording and address the valid concern.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    I'm sure everyone is familiar with the kind of "ragetuber" Kael is talking about. They're the kind of content creator who's entire channel is built on negativity and finding reasons to hate things just to hate them. For those individuals it literally does not matter what a game developer or TV show producer does they WILL find a reason to rip it apart because their viewership, and therefor their income, is entirely dependent on their negative reaction to things, and content creators like that can and do take fans who are disappointed about something and whip them up into a frenzy of rage over it.

    I don't know of any STO content creators who are like that, but there are plenty who target the new Trek TV shows. For a MMO content creator the best example I can think of is Asmongold in the WoW community, in the past he's gone on long rants about the WoW devs, other WoW content creators, and even posters on the official WoW forums who had criticized him, often leading to his viewers launching personal attacks against the individual. He also told his viewers to /spit on any character they saw riding a cash store mount because he felt they were helping Blizzard ruin the game, and many of them did exactly as he asked which probably contributed to Blizzard’s decision to remove that emote from WoW. Like I said though STO doesn't have any content creators like that that I know of, probably because it's a smaller community.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    Like I said though STO doesn't have any content creators like that that I know of,

    Which begs the obvious question: then why are we even talking about them?

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    Like I said though STO doesn't have any content creators like that that I know of,

    Which begs the obvious question: then why are we even talking about them?

    That is a good question, STO does get some overlap from the "NuTrek Bad!" crowd, but that doesn't fit the context of the comment last night because that stream was all about the Phoenix Box.
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  • baronvonboombaronvonboom Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    These morning after the night before posts never work out well & I would advise you read it while looking in the mirror as the propensity for pointing fingers is more prevelant than the apology which sadly is nothing new & probably a large part of the problem.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    IDK - Amazing that a NEW Star Trek series premiered today - yet not ONE SINGLE STO tie in to that...I'd say design & marketing decision making at STO isn't the greatest as come on - the new SNW uniforms have been on public display for MONTHS and P+ have been promoting said premiere for months.

    STO's design & marketing take on that seems to be: Meh - whatever.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    I do want to apologize to anyone who thought I was targeting them or dismissing their concerns. Wasn't my intent, but doesn't make it feel better.
    And we're back to the whole "I'm sorry you felt that way" non-apology that is rightfully working less and less for anyone using it in these years.

    No, it's just you reading it that way and finding a reason to be offended.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 5,406 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    IDK - Amazing that a NEW Star Trek series premiered today - yet not ONE SINGLE STO tie in to that...I'd say design & marketing decision making at STO isn't the greatest as come on - the new SNW uniforms have been on public display for MONTHS and P+ have been promoting said premiere for months.

    STO's design & marketing take on that seems to be: Meh - whatever.

    They explained that CBS was secretive with them and did not give them enough time to prepare something for the Strange New Worlds premiere. This was mentioned in this week's Ten Forward Weekly livestream. So that was on CBS not Cryptic. These notes are posted on Reddit by the SajuukKhar and were reposted by reyan01 in General Discussion.
    Post edited by sthe91 on
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  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,260 Arc User
    Before this thread gets closed, I want to say my piece. @sirsitsalot is dead on on a lot of what he said. I will go a bit further. @ambassadorkael#6946 I have to point the finger at you, Sir. YOU are the community leader, but you are MIA FAR more than is tolerable. your presence on the other social media platforms is a lot more prominent. your comments are as well. PLEASE try to balance your presence more.

    Now one thing I have seen (And I am guilty) is that an idea is put out here, and another forumite will shut the idea down and again, guilty as charged. what we are NOT seeing is ANY reply by cryptic. If @vetteguy904 suggests TRIBBLE to fix YYY, SOMEONE "in the know" should be responding, Hey, We will take it to the team" and then follow up "Hey guys, it was suggested to TRIBBLE to fix YYY.. unfortunately, if we do that we project ZZZ will happen, and feel it's not a good idea after all. that way we know SOMEONE is at least paying attention. a caveat: PLEASE do not say "it's too hard". if a developer's job is easy then the customer's experience could be far better.

    anyway, that's my opinion, YMMV
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  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,589 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    I do want to apologize to anyone who thought I was targeting them or dismissing their concerns. Wasn't my intent, but doesn't make it feel better.
    And we're back to the whole "I'm sorry you felt that way" non-apology that is rightfully working less and less for anyone using it in these years.

    To say nothing of the whole thing basically saying "it's not our fault, it's solely the fault of those blowing things out of proportions, which is why we will sideline and not seriously discuss the issues people may have to focus on the negativity of the more vocal elements exaggerating stuff". Again.

    There is more then one form of apology. You can knowingly do something in which case an apology, for it to be one must be unequivocal. Then there is unintended slights... which is what this was. Asking for someone to apologize for something taken the wrong way is wrong. However what Kael has done is perfectly acceptable and laudable. Acknowledge that someone felt slighted, and make clear that was not your intent.

    It seems these days the issue is not peoples non apology's, and more a case of people not understanding what an apology actually entails. An apology is given in the admission of error. If the error is in the assigning of intent where there is none... No apology is required. IMHO it is Kael who is owed the apology as people seemingly in bad faith have choosen to purposely misinterpret his words. He has chosen to kindly take the feedback on its face and offer a clarification... that people would continue to purposely read things into his words which are not present, is offensive. You should probably apologize.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,666 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2022
    My post from another thread about DIL Vanity Shields:
    strathkin wrote: »
    I think the change they made to Phoenix, was very necessary. I don't think Kael needed to apologize for what he said, as helping the DZE backlog to reduce or drop below 500:1, in fact does help newer players!

    While some may feel bad, Classic Phoenix offered 51,400 or double that during 2x. Still the revised 38,400 still very generous! Remember how most new players started with Superior, or then shifted more to Experimental Upgrades, for years we got 12,800 Tech Points and it cost 1075 DIL applying each single upgrade; at Mk XV that would take 5 Superiors (5,375 DIL) for every cycle. It's a slight premium over the cost of a Phoenix sure. Still Experimental offers the best upgrade chance, and even more if you use Quality Accelerators; and the lower tech points actually work in your favor, as more upgrades apply more quality chance each cycle.

    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    I'm honestly just surprised they didn't consider expanding Tier III Holdings out to IV; it could be done far faster than new Holding, and also unlock new rewards. Also refresh some Fleet Holdings in their appearance, we have 5 at Tier III, and if they did one every 2 years be a balancing force for 10 years.

    husanakx wrote: »
    There is more then one form of apology. You can knowingly do something in which case an apology, for it to be one must be unequivocal. Then there is unintended slights... which is what this was. Asking for someone to apologize for something taken the wrong way is wrong. However what Kael has done is perfectly acceptable and laudable. Acknowledge that someone felt slighted, and make clear that was not your intent.

    ...

    IMHO its Kael who is owed the apology as people in obvious bad faith in a state of upset choose to purposely misinterpret his words. He has chosen to kindly take the feedback on its face and offer a clarification... that people would continue to purposely read things into his words which are not present, is offensive. You should probably apologize.

    I'd agree!
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  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,666 Bug Hunter
    PS: Realize everyone there is 10 Promo Phoenix Box in the Promotions tab, not sure how long it will be there! Once per account, aside from the daily free Phoenix Box as well for the weekend.
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  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 988 Arc User
    > @sthe91 said:
    > They explained that CBS was secretive with them and did not give them enough time to prepare something for the Strange New Worlds premiere. This was mentioned in this week's Ten Forward Weekly livestream. So that was on CBS not Cryptic. These notes are posted on Reddit by the SajuukKhar and were reposted by reyan01 in General Discussion.

    I hear what you are saying, S-man. But they didn’t have any tie-ins for Picard either except a sale on ships already available in the store. Let’s face it. Even if they had more information from CBS they still wouldn’t do anything productive with that except maybe get a head start on new ships to put in the store 6-months later.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Could be worse.

    Could throw a meme-based self pity-party like Borticus did, and refer to the playerbase as a 'dog':


    Sorry but you guys are really not doing yourselves any favors.

    His meme was not wrong.

    Yes, it is. Why? Because it places all the blame on the "dog". It completely ignores the fact that the devs neglected the dilex and let it get so badly out of control. Some devs, and Bort particularly, always seems to blame the playerbase for the game's problems and never accept the fact that some of these problems are their own fault.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    qultuq wrote: »
    But they didn’t have any tie-ins for Picard either except a sale on ships already available in the store.

    Pretty sure we got the 2399 uniforms, and at some point Seven's outfit.
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    qultuq wrote: »
    But they didn’t have any tie-ins for Picard either except a sale on ships already available in the store.

    Pretty sure we got the 2399 uniforms, and at some point Seven's outfit.

    Yep - and they were anything BUT secretive WRT the new uniforms. Hell they had them on travelling display for MONTHS prior to the release. What - Cryptic doesn't have access to Youtube a the PLETHORA of videos show the new uniform details? Yeah right.
    Unless CBS said - "No, no tie ins..." -- give me a break. Kael and the rest seem VERY versed in social media and Trek related accounts have been showing promos and other stuff for months. Yes, they MAY have been secretive with aspects, but the look of the uniforms -- yeah, no.

    Every other new live action Kurtzman show at least had one new uniform variant released (and yes, for Picard it was the Admiral uniform variant. I understand why both Prodigy and Lower Decks are different as neither art style lines up (and Cryptic got its hand slapped for trying to do LD Boff portraits in STO 3D style) - but yeah, the new SNWS uniforms were hardly 'kept secret' by P+
    ^^^
    So yeah, Kael - something here doesn't pass the smell test. (And again, interesting they'd have no tie in to a show that will probably bring more new players to STO over the next few weeks/months. But hey, that's probably why NW nets 22 million a year and STO 7 million in profit by comparison - by PWE's own info put out for the Garbox acquisition. Poor marketing execution.)

    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited May 2022
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Could be worse.

    Could throw a meme-based self pity-party like Borticus did, and refer to the playerbase as a 'dog':


    Sorry but you guys are really not doing yourselves any favors.

    His meme was not wrong.

    Yes, it is. Why? Because it places all the blame on the "dog". It completely ignores the fact that the devs neglected the dilex and let it get so badly out of control. Some devs, and Bort particularly, always seems to blame the playerbase for the game's problems and never accept the fact that some of these problems are their own fault.

    It also likens the player base to that of a creature that is not able to comprehend or understand the situation and reacts only out of instinct without any real cognition. It's a very condescending view, but typical of Bort, he has all the tact of a flying hammer.

    As said, he and his team created the problem and now they blame the player base when their half measure fixes are not well received. Lets not forget the bottom line here.. the problem is one Cryptic created and then ignored as it festered for years. Bort can blame the player base if it makes him feel better, but if there is anyone in the equation that has been consistently incapable of comprehending the actual problem, he can find that culprit by looking in a mirror.

    I do respect the fact that Kael felt the need to clarify and apologize, he didn't have to do that. Unlike Bort, he at least seems to have a modicum of respect for those he's interacting with.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    It is likely that revamping the Fed tutorial has kept their ground people busy, which would probably put new uniforms for SNW on a back burner (and the TOS uniforms are probably close enough to do in a pinch since the SNW ones seem to be going with the cuff rings and the pips are almost invisible in the game).

    If CBS is being closed-mouthed concerning new ships, there would be nothing to put into the ship schedule for their usual lead with a box/bundle/whatever ship thing either.

    Also, going with just teasers and no inside information is risky, especially since Kurtzman is known for somewhat misleading teasers as part of the "Magic Box" style of hype and there is no telling who is handling the hype at this point.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    Honestly, while it's been well documented and reported on that online and social media tend to polarise any debate and feed on rage, there is a question one needs to ask.

    Do people go online and then get angry because of what they're reading/seeing/hear - or were they angry before they went online because they have good reason to be angry?

    With most topics, especially political ones, I've found that the 'social media stoke rage and cause polarisation'-narrative is usually just something people say because they refuse to accept that these things are caused by very different factors instead.

    There are good reasons for being angry with things that happen in the game. I'm not angry, but I can understand why others might be.


    With all that being said - it is true that generic 'everything sucks' comments are rather pointless and do serve little purpose besides venting anger and creating downward spirals of it.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

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  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,666 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2022
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Could be worse.

    Could throw a meme-based self pity-party like Borticus did, and refer to the playerbase as a 'dog':


    Sorry but you guys are really not doing yourselves any favors.

    His meme was not wrong. Nobody likes to have stuff "TAKEN" from them.

    ...

    Borticus' meme illustrates how the dog does not understand that the ball is meant to be thrown, caught and retrieved before it can be thrown again.

    This sentence is well summarized point, I wanted to highlight.

    One thing I always do myself, is first try to assume the other persons point of view, rather than my own. Because when someone communicates, it's to express their idea's or feelings based on what they perceive. Many of us often, or always first interpret the message based on how it made them feel; and that is where communication breakdown occurs. First we have to understand why or how the communicator felt that way.

    We won't always agree with others, yet others have often seen things differently; because of a variety of reasons to vast to dive deeper on. Still it's a wise point!

    Still I think the @thegrandnagus1 is correct, still we realize they were busy with other things we appreciated sure. While perhaps this Phoenix Change will help the DZE, most think Fleet Holdings are the cause (mostly) - not entirely though. Just nothing has been expanded, or added for 5+ or so years. It doesn't always require the large effort either, as been suggested by Expanding Tier III out to IV. It take a fraction of the effort 20-25% (perhaps less) and how far they updated each map their call, while also giving something new to acquire with Fleet Marks & DIL as well.

    Everyone, Have a good day! o:)
    Post edited by strathkin on
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  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,666 Bug Hunter
    edited May 2022
    I mean the Nagus was one who agreed with me that Fleet Holdings being overlooked since 2018, is a large driver in the cause; sure there are a few others as well. Still I'm hopeful the Phoenix Change will Stick, and continue to drive downward pressure on the DZE long term. If it does then still I'd say Borticus succeeded, not sure the Cartoon was required though; as Dev's feel the same way, about Food Prices last year or two.

    Still I do think this is a good idea, that could have been done much earlier. It doesn't require creating new Holdings, just expand existing Tier III Holding every 1-2.5 years out to Tier IV. That could be a balancing force for 12.5 years possibly. Also they might introduce a few more expensive upgrades as well...

    Example: (Sure the Wizard's at Cryptic, could find several others too that be appealing)
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    Post edited by strathkin on
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  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,843 Arc User
    ok, I've watched for three days. Two people in this tread, in my opinion are dead on. Nixie50's comment was dead on in the 10 ring. Second, the Grand Nagus' reaction to the dog meme is also spot on. it's not a question of right and wrong. it's a matter of CUSTOMER SERVICE. I don't mean the CSRs who read the complaint emails. EVERYONE in a company from the CEO down to the guy taking out the trash is customer service, and it only takes ONE to really poison the well so to speak. Devs should not be customer facing, as a rule, but if you are going to, YOU DON'T FREAKING complain, Name/shame or disrespect your CUSTOMERS.

    of course what the hell do i know, I only worked for 5 fortune 100 companies in a customer service role over the past 20 years.
    but then again, I don't have to worry about Kael seeing this, he's made is quarterly post on the forums, we won't see him again till august
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