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On my comments last night

ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,515 Community Manager
Last night, I made a comment (well, a few comments) about internet rage cycles and how, psychologically, we feed off each other when we're upset. Seen a few comments this morning that make me think I did a terrible job explaining what I meant, so let me try again.

I said several times that people's concerns or reasons they might be upset with us or STO are valid. You are absolutely allowed to be upset at decisions we make, and I had no intention of dismissing those. The question I was asked is "why does it feel like STO is always TRIBBLE new players?" I answered that literally - it feels that way because of the internet. You get upset, validly, at a decision we make. While you're upset, you seek out other folks who are upset. And one person, emotionally, posts something dramatic and all encompassing, like "Cryptic doesn't care about new players." While being upset at a decision is valid, that statement, that Cryptic doesn't care about new players, is untrue. But, because we're upset, it *feels* true and it starts to propagate.

Then the people who read that comment start to comment the same thing, and it gets picked up, and starts to snowball until someone is angrily tweeting about how Cryptic has a conspiracy to drive players away or something. And this is the industry that bs artists thrive on.

You ever gone on YouTube and seen a video with a title like, "DISCOVERY A FAILURE! KURTZMAN GETTING FIRED?" Those are untrue, but those people are trying to make money off of being the first person to say something, to grab a rage swell so they can make money off hits.

Again, this doesn't mean that whatever you were upset about isn't valid. You are absolutely ok to not be ok with decisions we make. I was just cautioning against getting caught in the rage spirals that lead to real world hurt. Our brains are wired for community and for emotion, and it's incredibly easy for a desire to connect to be filled by a community of negativity. It's not a huge problem for STO, and we don't have the kind of click-bait problem that larger communities have, but it's still something to look out for. That's all.

I do want to apologize to anyone who thought I was targeting them or dismissing their concerns. Wasn't my intent, but doesn't make it feel better.
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Comments

  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,727 Arc User
    I've been a community manager in the past. I've dealt with all sorts of personalities and attitudes. Even people who can be as irritating as I know I have been in this forum. If I were in your position, and someone asked me, "why does it feel like STO is always TRIBBLE new players?", I would have immediately responded with "In what way do you feel STO is TRIBBLE new players." I would seek to internalize the issue rather than externalizing it.

    What you unwittingly did, Kael, was put the blame on the community while not addressing the cause of the ire on the community's part. This is, unfortunately, a position Cryptic consistently takes whenever a decision they know full werll is going to be met with opposition is made. When Exploration was removed from the game, it was because players were getting lost in the exploration clusters. When Foundry was removed, the reason was first because of lack of available talent, but it was not left there, then the reason was given that players were not using the foundry indicating not enough interest to justify it. And before PWE came on the scene, the reason why the KDF was not receiving content was because players were not really playing the KDF, and Cryptic needed to prioritize what players were engaging with. Now the reason it feels like STO is TRIBBLE new players is because of us and how we behave on the internet.

    You made it about the community and not about STO and finding out first-hand what specific issue is irritating new players. You may not be able to provide an answer to the issue right there, but at least you would know what to take into internal discussions to inform the right people how something is impacting actual players. This was, in my opinion, a missed opportunity to extend an olive branch.

    This forum used to be very active with a lot of passionate people who wanted to see the game be the absolute best it could be. They didn't tolerate BS, and when they called Cryptic out on BLATANT BS, they were silenced. People like Jacob Flowers and Peregrine Falcon, who while very abrasive in their observations and digging for actual evidence where one thing was said and another thing was done... or nothing was done at all, also made it a point to lay out detailed solutions to the issues in question. Solutions which garnered a lot of community support and were well within the scope of the existing mechanics. But they told the truth too many times, and were silenced for it. I was in Peregrine Falcon's fleet. It was HUGE. When he was silenced, I ended up being the only active player remaining. Everyone left the game.

    See the message Cryptic has repeatedly sent out is that they do not really care what we the players think is wrong with the game, or what we think might fix it. That may not be the narrative you guys intend to send, but it is the one I have begun to perceive. For a long time, I laid blame at PWE's feet, but in light of the whole DilEx issue and the way Cryptic has just been dancing around it, and addressing it with band-aid fixes to what is an arterial wound, I began perceiving Cryptic itself as a major player in the lack of solutions. Cryptic needs to OWN this, and they need to actually do something about it. The Community isn't making the decisions. You guys are. So if there are people who feel that the game is TRIBBLE new players, then something is going on that is causing that perception. It needs to be identified and addressed.

    But Identifying and addressing issues involves actual work. It's far easier to just blame some external element, like the internet, or player attitudes.

    That is my perception of the whole situation. I mean no disrespect. However, A=A until it is proven to be B. I've been hoping that Cryptic would change my perception for quite some time. I will still hold out hope. But what I will not hold is my breath.

    This is just me being as honest and upfront with you as I possibly can be. I harbor no ill will towards you or anyone at Cryptic.
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,240 Arc User
    I do want to apologize to anyone who thought I was targeting them or dismissing their concerns. Wasn't my intent, but doesn't make it feel better.
    And we're back to the whole "I'm sorry you felt that way" non-apology that is rightfully working less and less for anyone using it in these years.

    To say nothing of the whole thing basically saying "it's not our fault, it's solely the fault of those blowing things out of proportions, which is why we will sideline and not seriously discuss the issues people may have to focus on the negativity of the more vocal elements exaggerating stuff". Again.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,108 Arc User
    edited May 5
    I've started to write a reply several times and then stopped, because I wasn't sure exactly how I wanted to express my thoughts. I guess the simplest way to say it is this:

    We all (and by "we" and "all" I mean "reasonable people") know that doom-ragers are bad. We all know it. There is no need to waste time just saying those people are bad; we get it.

    That said, those doom-ragers should not ever be used to dismiss real/valid criticism. I'm not saying Kael is doing that on purpose, but this entire situation was just one big distraction from the real concerns being raised. I mean, someone on chat asked a badly worded question; something like "why does it seem like Cryptic always makes it harder for new players?".

    Yes, it was badly worded. Of course Cryptic isn't trying to do that. But instead of addressing the real concern (these changes might make it harder for new players) we get all this drama about people on youtube.

    So here is my suggestion to Kael: next time you're on the livestream, if someone asks a question that isn't worded perfectly but has a valid concern behind it, just overlook the poor wording and address the valid concern.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    I'm sure everyone is familiar with the kind of "ragetuber" Kael is talking about. They're the kind of content creator who's entire channel is built on negativity and finding reasons to hate things just to hate them. For those individuals it literally does not matter what a game developer or TV show producer does they WILL find a reason to rip it apart because their viewership, and therefor their income, is entirely dependent on their negative reaction to things, and content creators like that can and do take fans who are disappointed about something and whip them up into a frenzy of rage over it.

    I don't know of any STO content creators who are like that, but there are plenty who target the new Trek TV shows. For a MMO content creator the best example I can think of is Asmongold in the WoW community, in the past he's gone on long rants about the WoW devs, other WoW content creators, and even posters on the official WoW forums who had criticized him, often leading to his viewers launching personal attacks against the individual. He also told his viewers to /spit on any character they saw riding a cash store mount because he felt they were helping Blizzard ruin the game, and many of them did exactly as he asked which probably contributed to Blizzard’s decision to remove that emote from WoW. Like I said though STO doesn't have any content creators like that that I know of, probably because it's a smaller community.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,108 Arc User
    Like I said though STO doesn't have any content creators like that that I know of,

    Which begs the obvious question: then why are we even talking about them?

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    Like I said though STO doesn't have any content creators like that that I know of,

    Which begs the obvious question: then why are we even talking about them?

    That is a good question, STO does get some overlap from the "NuTrek Bad!" crowd, but that doesn't fit the context of the comment last night because that stream was all about the Phoenix Box.
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  • baronvonboombaronvonboom Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    These morning after the night before posts never work out well & I would advise you read it while looking in the mirror as the propensity for pointing fingers is more prevelant than the apology which sadly is nothing new & probably a large part of the problem.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,900 Arc User
    IDK - Amazing that a NEW Star Trek series premiered today - yet not ONE SINGLE STO tie in to that...I'd say design & marketing decision making at STO isn't the greatest as come on - the new SNW uniforms have been on public display for MONTHS and P+ have been promoting said premiere for months.

    STO's design & marketing take on that seems to be: Meh - whatever.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited May 5
    I do want to apologize to anyone who thought I was targeting them or dismissing their concerns. Wasn't my intent, but doesn't make it feel better.
    And we're back to the whole "I'm sorry you felt that way" non-apology that is rightfully working less and less for anyone using it in these years.

    No, it's just you reading it that way and finding a reason to be offended.
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  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 4,152 Arc User
    edited May 6
    IDK - Amazing that a NEW Star Trek series premiered today - yet not ONE SINGLE STO tie in to that...I'd say design & marketing decision making at STO isn't the greatest as come on - the new SNW uniforms have been on public display for MONTHS and P+ have been promoting said premiere for months.

    STO's design & marketing take on that seems to be: Meh - whatever.

    They explained that CBS was secretive with them and did not give them enough time to prepare something for the Strange New Worlds premiere. This was mentioned in this week's Ten Forward Weekly livestream. So that was on CBS not Cryptic. These notes are posted on Reddit by the SajuukKhar and were reposted by reyan01 in General Discussion.
    Post edited by sthe91 on
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  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 999 Arc User
    Before this thread gets closed, I want to say my piece. @sirsitsalot is dead on on a lot of what he said. I will go a bit further. @ambassadorkael#6946 I have to point the finger at you, Sir. YOU are the community leader, but you are MIA FAR more than is tolerable. your presence on the other social media platforms is a lot more prominent. your comments are as well. PLEASE try to balance your presence more.

    Now one thing I have seen (And I am guilty) is that an idea is put out here, and another forumite will shut the idea down and again, guilty as charged. what we are NOT seeing is ANY reply by cryptic. If @vetteguy904 suggests TRIBBLE to fix YYY, SOMEONE "in the know" should be responding, Hey, We will take it to the team" and then follow up "Hey guys, it was suggested to TRIBBLE to fix YYY.. unfortunately, if we do that we project ZZZ will happen, and feel it's not a good idea after all. that way we know SOMEONE is at least paying attention. a caveat: PLEASE do not say "it's too hard". if a developer's job is easy then the customer's experience could be far better.

    anyway, that's my opinion, YMMV
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  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,259 Arc User
    edited May 6
    I do want to apologize to anyone who thought I was targeting them or dismissing their concerns. Wasn't my intent, but doesn't make it feel better.
    And we're back to the whole "I'm sorry you felt that way" non-apology that is rightfully working less and less for anyone using it in these years.

    To say nothing of the whole thing basically saying "it's not our fault, it's solely the fault of those blowing things out of proportions, which is why we will sideline and not seriously discuss the issues people may have to focus on the negativity of the more vocal elements exaggerating stuff". Again.

    There is more then one form of apology. You can knowingly do something in which case an apology, for it to be one must be unequivocal. Then there is unintended slights... which is what this was. Asking for someone to apologize for something taken the wrong way is wrong. However what Kael has done is perfectly acceptable and laudable. Acknowledge that someone felt slighted, and make clear that was not your intent.

    It seems these days the issue is not peoples non apology's, and more a case of people not understanding what an apology actually entails. An apology is given in the admission of error. If the error is in the assigning of intent where there is none... No apology is required. IMHO it is Kael who is owed the apology as people seemingly in bad faith have choosen to purposely misinterpret his words. He has chosen to kindly take the feedback on its face and offer a clarification... that people would continue to purposely read things into his words which are not present, is offensive. You should probably apologize.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,655 Bug Hunter
    edited May 6
    My post from another thread about DIL Vanity Shields:
    strathkin wrote: »
    I think the change they made to Phoenix, was very necessary. I don't think Kael needed to apologize for what he said, as helping the DZE backlog to reduce or drop below 500:1, in fact does help newer players!

    While some may feel bad, Classic Phoenix offered 51,400 or double that during 2x. Still the revised 38,400 still very generous! Remember how most new players started with Superior, or then shifted more to Experimental Upgrades, for years we got 12,800 Tech Points and it cost 1075 DIL applying each single upgrade; at Mk XV that would take 5 Superiors (5,375 DIL) for every cycle. It's a slight premium over the cost of a Phoenix sure. Still Experimental offers the best upgrade chance, and even more if you use Quality Accelerators; and the lower tech points actually work in your favor, as more upgrades apply more quality chance each cycle.

    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
    I'm honestly just surprised they didn't consider expanding Tier III Holdings out to IV; it could be done far faster than new Holding, and also unlock new rewards. Also refresh some Fleet Holdings in their appearance, we have 5 at Tier III, and if they did one every 2 years be a balancing force for 10 years.

    husanakx wrote: »
    There is more then one form of apology. You can knowingly do something in which case an apology, for it to be one must be unequivocal. Then there is unintended slights... which is what this was. Asking for someone to apologize for something taken the wrong way is wrong. However what Kael has done is perfectly acceptable and laudable. Acknowledge that someone felt slighted, and make clear that was not your intent.

    ...

    IMHO its Kael who is owed the apology as people in obvious bad faith in a state of upset choose to purposely misinterpret his words. He has chosen to kindly take the feedback on its face and offer a clarification... that people would continue to purposely read things into his words which are not present, is offensive. You should probably apologize.

    I'd agree!
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  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,401 Arc User
    I do want to apologize to anyone who thought I was targeting them or dismissing their concerns. Wasn't my intent, but doesn't make it feel better.

    While you're at it, how about apologizing for only communicating via the livestreams, which automatically cuts out all of us who cannot be online at that time?
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,655 Bug Hunter
    PS: Realize everyone there is 10 Promo Phoenix Box in the Promotions tab, not sure how long it will be there! Once per account, aside from the daily free Phoenix Box as well for the weekend.
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  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    > @sthe91 said:
    > They explained that CBS was secretive with them and did not give them enough time to prepare something for the Strange New Worlds premiere. This was mentioned in this week's Ten Forward Weekly livestream. So that was on CBS not Cryptic. These notes are posted on Reddit by the SajuukKhar and were reposted by reyan01 in General Discussion.

    I hear what you are saying, S-man. But they didn’t have any tie-ins for Picard either except a sale on ships already available in the store. Let’s face it. Even if they had more information from CBS they still wouldn’t do anything productive with that except maybe get a head start on new ships to put in the store 6-months later.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,536 Arc User
    edited May 6
    Could be worse.

    Could throw a meme-based self pity-party like Borticus did, and refer to the playerbase as a 'dog':


    Sorry but you guys are really not doing yourselves any favors.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,727 Arc User
    qultuq wrote: »
    > @sthe91 said:
    > They explained that CBS was secretive with them and did not give them enough time to prepare something for the Strange New Worlds premiere. This was mentioned in this week's Ten Forward Weekly livestream. So that was on CBS not Cryptic. These notes are posted on Reddit by the SajuukKhar and were reposted by reyan01 in General Discussion.

    I hear what you are saying, S-man. But they didn’t have any tie-ins for Picard either except a sale on ships already available in the store. Let’s face it. Even if they had more information from CBS they still wouldn’t do anything productive with that except maybe get a head start on new ships to put in the store 6-months later.

    No... Ships represent their bread-and-butter. If they had something official to go on that CBS has approved of, they would jump right on that and have it ready an out the door before you can say "Boo!" The only thing we can count on Cryptic to produce and deliver like clockwork is a new ship to put in a bundle on the C-store, or to put in a lockbox for us to gamble for. They would not sit on it. Now that SNW has launched, We'll be seeing something either announced or delivered Soon™.
    There can be no meeting of the minds between two parties
    if both parties are not willing to meet in the middle...
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,727 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Could be worse.

    Could throw a meme-based self pity-party like Borticus did, and refer to the playerbase as a 'dog':


    Sorry but you guys are really not doing yourselves any favors.

    His meme was not wrong. Nobody likes to have stuff "TAKEN" from them. Hence the opposition some people have towards Dilithium sinks. They personally view Dilithium as the means they can get Zen without spending their own real money, so anything the game might do to consume their RD is seen as some form of theft. And nothing anyone says will get them to understand that people are not going to trade their Zen for RD is there is no perceived need for RD, and without RD sinks, there is no perceived need, which is what put the DilEx in the state it's been in. It cannot just be something someone hordes up just to trade for Zen. It's got to have a practical purpose in the game as well, otherwise the people with Zen to trade will have no need for it.

    Borticus' meme illustrates how the dog does not understand that the ball is meant to be thrown, caught and retrieved before it can be thrown again.

    There is a big difference between posting a meme that accurately illustrates a point of logic and deflecting a question with a comment blaming people's behavior on the internet. Kael ended up going off about doomsayers on YouTube rather than doing a community manager's job to identify specific concerns to carry to those behind the scenes who can address them.

    I was a community manager. Hell, I co-founded the community I managed. It had nothing to do with games, but still, you deal with a wide range of personalities and varying levels of sarcasm on the part of people who perceive something that rubs them the wrong way. I was privy to information they were not, and the individuals I was working with in an official capacity needed that information to remain confidential. I shared what I could without breaching confidentiality agreements. So questions like "Why can't we have this?" or "Why aren't they doing that?" had to be answered without revealing what I knew before being permitted to do so. What I would say was "I understand what you're asking, and I CAN tell you that there is discussion in progress about these concerns, but nothing has been decided yet. I cannot discuss what is being considered, but I do bring all concerns to the discussions. As soon as something is decided, I will waste no time in announcing it." It was not the answer they were looking for, but it was the truth and my history of accurately delivering information had earned their trust.

    So what was it I did? I co-founded and ran the internet fan community of actress/artist Arana Richards, most recognizable for her role as Lex in Jurassic Park. The incident I refer to is an information blackout that occurred while certain things were being finalized as well as some stricter moderation in place that required all posts to be moderated. We had a cross-section of the community who thought we were just trying to exclude them and felt they should be able to discuss whatever they wanted and were demanding that they be told what was going on or they would leave and start their own fan community.

    What I could not talk about was the fact that at that critical juncture, we were being very closely observed and evaluated before Ariana made her decision on something game-changing. Those individuals did leave the community, and they posted their I Quit message with an invitation to join their new fan group that would allow any and all discussions with no heavy-handed moderation. Two weeks later, a new section of our forum went live that was viewable by all, but could only be posted to by those with VIP status, which was me, the community's other co-founders and chief web admin... And Ariana Richards. That other fan club did not take off. Ours became official with Ariana interacting directly with us in safety and security.

    This was years ago, and that community no longer exists as Ariana was eventually in a position to assume direct control over her brand, and her husband now handles all her publicity-related activities. In my run, I consulted with talent agents, motion picture directors and with Ariana herself. I couldn't have done it on my own, so I will never devalue the skills and presence the other co-founders brought to the table, or the fans who stuck with us through our formative period.

    That has nothing to do with STO, but a community manager's responsibility means walking a fine line between the interests of the community and the interests of those he or she is coordinating with behind the scenes. Both interests must be served. And they are not served by deflecting questions and blaming external elements. I think the biggest gripe that the STO community has is that its concerns are perceived to fall on deaf ears. And when they get to actually voice those concerns, they are deflected and the narrative redirects to something that actually puts blame on the community. That is what Kael needs to apologize for. I can accept his apology for what he actually apologized for. But I cannot ignore that he has not apologized for deflecting the question to begin with. I really think he should do this. At least to clear the air.

    An opportunity to extend an olive branch has still been missed, either way.

    I wish you all a good day.
    There can be no meeting of the minds between two parties
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,108 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Could be worse.

    Could throw a meme-based self pity-party like Borticus did, and refer to the playerbase as a 'dog':


    Sorry but you guys are really not doing yourselves any favors.

    His meme was not wrong.

    Yes, it is. Why? Because it places all the blame on the "dog". It completely ignores the fact that the devs neglected the dilex and let it get so badly out of control. Some devs, and Bort particularly, always seems to blame the playerbase for the game's problems and never accept the fact that some of these problems are their own fault.

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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,675 Community Moderator
    qultuq wrote: »
    But they didn’t have any tie-ins for Picard either except a sale on ships already available in the store.

    Pretty sure we got the 2399 uniforms, and at some point Seven's outfit.
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,900 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    qultuq wrote: »
    But they didn’t have any tie-ins for Picard either except a sale on ships already available in the store.

    Pretty sure we got the 2399 uniforms, and at some point Seven's outfit.

    Yep - and they were anything BUT secretive WRT the new uniforms. Hell they had them on travelling display for MONTHS prior to the release. What - Cryptic doesn't have access to Youtube a the PLETHORA of videos show the new uniform details? Yeah right.
    Unless CBS said - "No, no tie ins..." -- give me a break. Kael and the rest seem VERY versed in social media and Trek related accounts have been showing promos and other stuff for months. Yes, they MAY have been secretive with aspects, but the look of the uniforms -- yeah, no.

    Every other new live action Kurtzman show at least had one new uniform variant released (and yes, for Picard it was the Admiral uniform variant. I understand why both Prodigy and Lower Decks are different as neither art style lines up (and Cryptic got its hand slapped for trying to do LD Boff portraits in STO 3D style) - but yeah, the new SNWS uniforms were hardly 'kept secret' by P+
    ^^^
    So yeah, Kael - something here doesn't pass the smell test. (And again, interesting they'd have no tie in to a show that will probably bring more new players to STO over the next few weeks/months. But hey, that's probably why NW nets 22 million a year and STO 7 million in profit by comparison - by PWE's own info put out for the Garbox acquisition. Poor marketing execution.)

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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,913 Arc User
    edited May 6
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Could be worse.

    Could throw a meme-based self pity-party like Borticus did, and refer to the playerbase as a 'dog':


    Sorry but you guys are really not doing yourselves any favors.

    His meme was not wrong.

    Yes, it is. Why? Because it places all the blame on the "dog". It completely ignores the fact that the devs neglected the dilex and let it get so badly out of control. Some devs, and Bort particularly, always seems to blame the playerbase for the game's problems and never accept the fact that some of these problems are their own fault.

    It also likens the player base to that of a creature that is not able to comprehend or understand the situation and reacts only out of instinct without any real cognition. It's a very condescending view, but typical of Bort, he has all the tact of a flying hammer.

    As said, he and his team created the problem and now they blame the player base when their half measure fixes are not well received. Lets not forget the bottom line here.. the problem is one Cryptic created and then ignored as it festered for years. Bort can blame the player base if it makes him feel better, but if there is anyone in the equation that has been consistently incapable of comprehending the actual problem, he can find that culprit by looking in a mirror.

    I do respect the fact that Kael felt the need to clarify and apologize, he didn't have to do that. Unlike Bort, he at least seems to have a modicum of respect for those he's interacting with.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 4,297 Arc User
    It is likely that revamping the Fed tutorial has kept their ground people busy, which would probably put new uniforms for SNW on a back burner (and the TOS uniforms are probably close enough to do in a pinch since the SNW ones seem to be going with the cuff rings and the pips are almost invisible in the game).

    If CBS is being closed-mouthed concerning new ships, there would be nothing to put into the ship schedule for their usual lead with a box/bundle/whatever ship thing either.

    Also, going with just teasers and no inside information is risky, especially since Kurtzman is known for somewhat misleading teasers as part of the "Magic Box" style of hype and there is no telling who is handling the hype at this point.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 3,326 Arc User
    Honestly, while it's been well documented and reported on that online and social media tend to polarise any debate and feed on rage, there is a question one needs to ask.

    Do people go online and then get angry because of what they're reading/seeing/hear - or were they angry before they went online because they have good reason to be angry?

    With most topics, especially political ones, I've found that the 'social media stoke rage and cause polarisation'-narrative is usually just something people say because they refuse to accept that these things are caused by very different factors instead.

    There are good reasons for being angry with things that happen in the game. I'm not angry, but I can understand why others might be.


    With all that being said - it is true that generic 'everything sucks' comments are rather pointless and do serve little purpose besides venting anger and creating downward spirals of it.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,655 Bug Hunter
    edited May 8
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Could be worse.

    Could throw a meme-based self pity-party like Borticus did, and refer to the playerbase as a 'dog':


    Sorry but you guys are really not doing yourselves any favors.

    His meme was not wrong. Nobody likes to have stuff "TAKEN" from them.

    ...

    Borticus' meme illustrates how the dog does not understand that the ball is meant to be thrown, caught and retrieved before it can be thrown again.

    This sentence is well summarized point, I wanted to highlight.

    One thing I always do myself, is first try to assume the other persons point of view, rather than my own. Because when someone communicates, it's to express their idea's or feelings based on what they perceive. Many of us often, or always first interpret the message based on how it made them feel; and that is where communication breakdown occurs. First we have to understand why or how the communicator felt that way.

    We won't always agree with others, yet others have often seen things differently; because of a variety of reasons to vast to dive deeper on. Still it's a wise point!

    Still I think the @thegrandnagus1 is correct, still we realize they were busy with other things we appreciated sure. While perhaps this Phoenix Change will help the DZE, most think Fleet Holdings are the cause (mostly) - not entirely though. Just nothing has been expanded, or added for 5+ or so years. It doesn't always require the large effort either, as been suggested by Expanding Tier III out to IV. It take a fraction of the effort 20-25% (perhaps less) and how far they updated each map their call, while also giving something new to acquire with Fleet Marks & DIL as well.

    Everyone, Have a good day! o:)
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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,143 Arc User
    edited May 7
    community manager...that always gives me a chuckle. :)

    too bad there arent any "official" forums for such an enterprising person to fill. sure hope they can find space in the team for one soon. im sure all those hats are getting heavy.

    the only thing the current inept CM has done is send out IMs when he gets offended, and threaten bans over his personal feelings getting bruised, and continually err on posts, and advise of his commitment to be around more, and yet not, unless its to poke people for hurt feelings. im sure one could find some bear skin pajamas to give one a thicker skin.

    reason 4 edit: spelling error was corrected

    with all that said, many others have made valid points and hit nails on the head...yet again. sad when so many can hit the mark, but the target never gets it.

    how long has he been doing this now?
    Post edited by keepcalmchiveon on
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,069 Arc User
    Yes, it is. Why? Because it places all the blame on the "dog". It completely ignores the fact that the devs neglected the dilex and let it get so badly out of control. Some devs, and Bort particularly, always seems to blame the playerbase for the game's problems and never accept the fact that some of these problems are their own fault.

    ^ Spot on. Cryptic blaming the players for their poor design decisions is not garnering any sympathy.
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  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,655 Bug Hunter
    edited May 8
    I mean the Nagus was one who agreed with me that Fleet Holdings being overlooked since 2018, is a large driver in the cause; sure there are a few others as well. Still I'm hopeful the Phoenix Change will Stick, and continue to drive downward pressure on the DZE long term. If it does then still I'd say Borticus succeeded, not sure the Cartoon was required though; as Dev's feel the same way, about Food Prices last year or two.

    Still I do think this is a good idea, that could have been done much earlier. It doesn't require creating new Holdings, just expand existing Tier III Holding every 1-2.5 years out to Tier IV. That could be a balancing force for 12.5 years possibly. Also they might introduce a few more expensive upgrades as well...

    Example: (Sure the Wizard's at Cryptic, could find several others too that be appealing)
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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,727 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Could be worse.

    Could throw a meme-based self pity-party like Borticus did, and refer to the playerbase as a 'dog':


    Sorry but you guys are really not doing yourselves any favors.

    His meme was not wrong.

    Yes, it is. Why? Because it places all the blame on the "dog". It completely ignores the fact that the devs neglected the dilex and let it get so badly out of control. Some devs, and Bort particularly, always seems to blame the playerbase for the game's problems and never accept the fact that some of these problems are their own fault.

    Yes... the blame the players mentality has been a Cryptic thin g since STO launched, starting with the KDF's lack of development. We were told back then that the KDF was not getting attention because players weren't playing it. Nevermind that players weren't playing it because at the time it was 99% PvP, and the majority of the players wanted PvE. Yes, there was a more than significant overlap of those who wanted both PvE and PvP. but the majority of players didn't want PvP ONLY out of the KDF. Not when they were sold on the idea of two factions with both full PvP and full PvE experiences to be had, and the PROMISE from Cryptic that even though the game had to launch with only one complete faction, that the KDF would be brought up to speed ASAP post launch.

    Whit it was technically true that the metrics showed that players were not engaging in KDF gameplay, that's a "What" without a "Why." The what gave them an excuse to not bother. Never mind that the Why was because the KDF was incomplete and therefore was not compelling. It's like in Field of Dreams: "If you build it, they will come." Well Cryptic wasn't building it, so we weren't coming... But it was our fault.

    However, I stand by my position that Bort's meme was accurate.

    We know that the game needs actual RD sinks. We have a huge thread talking about it. But we have to remember that Cryptic doesn't give one hundredth of a damn about what anyone says on these forums. The majority of the players don't even come here. And topics stay on page one for weeks where once they were pushed off it in hours. We know that they pay attention to every discussion outlet other than their own official forums. I don't, and most of those of us who still congregate here don't either. I've said it for a long time that the right way to do it would be to post all their news and official interactions HERE and then link to them on those other outlets. Direct people to their official forums. When I was a community manager doing what I did, that's how my community became strong and cohesive. Sure, we didn't have all the different social media sites out there, but there were multiple facets to the fan community that started of as splintered, but our outreach efforts brought them to us, and we acknowledged where they came from. I had a single unified community to MANAGE. Kael is giving himself multiple communities to manage by NOT centralizing. And the devs don't engage here either.

    The point of that last paragraph is that Bort probably sees a lot more hate for RD sinks on those other discussion platforms than he sees on this one. And they are likely being made by people who do not understand how RD is supposed to work in tha it is meant to come in as ore that gets refined and go out through various means that players WANT to engage in. Its sole purpose has NEVER been just to trade for Zen, and it was never meant to be. If it were, those with Zen to trade would never trade it.

    STO Players: Get Dilithium Ore - Refine it - Use it - Repeat.
    Dog: Catch the ball - Bring it back - Let the owner take it back - Repeat

    But many dogs do not understand that they are expected to let the owner take it back. They just want to hold onto it. The meme illustrates that many players do not understand that they are expected to USE the RD. They just want to hold onto it. This is a FACT. What Bort and the rest of Cryptic need to be asking themselves is whether or not what players are expected to use their RD on is what players would want to spend it on cyclically. And it needs to be cyclic, otherwise it's a bottleneck. It's like YELLING at the dog for not letting go of the ball. It doesn't do any good. You give a dog a treat when he brings the ball back and drops it, he'll let go of it every single time, because he gets something out of it more than just going through motions. And honestly, this game has us going through motions all the time with very little to show for it except RD that we want to hold onto because maybe the DilEx will fix itself and we can get Zen again and use it to buy ships.

    See I understood the analogy by directly corelating how a game of Fetch and the Dilithium process are supposed to work. It's accurate. It's true. But it IS also a symptom of a problem that Cryptic refuses to even acknowledge, to which the only real solution is for them to do actual development work. Which they do not WANT to do. Easier for them to just look at numbers and use other numbers to change them. But the numbers they choose to use only drive temporary mitigations. They are neither long term or cyclic unless they do something that is also long term or cyclic. And it cannot be seen as them just trying to take the ball away.
    There can be no meeting of the minds between two parties
    if both parties are not willing to meet in the middle...
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