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    joshmauljoshmaul Member Posts: 519 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    to1y1fkohoi81.jpg

    This would be funnier if it wasn't so true.
    TW1sr57.jpg
    "There's No Way Like Poway!"

    Real Join Date: October 2010
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    The bigger problem with SWTOR is the complete and utter lack of respect their developers have for player time. Every time a new expansion drops (like Legacy of the Sith) all current end game gear and many currencies are rendered obsolete. They change the gearing and skill systems completely every time there is an update, and to make things worse.. sometimes they actually go back to systems they used years previous. They absolutely can't make up their minds and they wipe out all the players progress every time they decide to try something new.

    Say what you want about Cryptic and how they run things sometimes.. but they never do TRIBBLE like that.

    I loved SWTOR, played it a lot.. it has some great story and is a very fun game overall, but as soon as they announced Legacy Of the Sith I uninstalled it and cancelled my sub. As much as I like that game, playing it makes you appreciate some of the decisions that Cryptic makes with STO.

    Every MMO has problems, the trick is finding the one who's problems you can actually live with. I couldn't deal with anymore of SWTOR's flaws.. it was too much.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    Every time a new expansion drops (like Legacy of the Sith) all current end game gear and many currencies are rendered obsolete.

    That's standard for MMO's and helps provide a sense of progression from one expansion to the next, while also allowing devs to leave OP gear behind. That's honestly something I've always DISLIKED about STO, due to the way gearing works here you get situations where, for example, the best tactical consoles are an item that was released eight and a half YEARS ago. Having put many hours into WoW and other MMOs it just doesn't make any sense to me that ancient gear like that is both end game viable and often best-in-slot, but that's what we have because Cryptic linked gearing to monetization (through the dilex and fleet stores using dilithium) and therefore had no choice but to make it upgradable any time they decide to increase the maximum item level/mark.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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    davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,542 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    STO's faction trailers are pretty good, but one thing the SWTOR team does awesomely is trailers, like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2j-fpQgGQM

    The launch mini-movies were great, and this one makes me want to re-install after years away.

    That, and watch some Old Republic movies or TV shows, if such existed.
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,396 Arc User
    Every time a new expansion drops (like Legacy of the Sith) all current end game gear and many currencies are rendered obsolete.

    That's standard for MMO's and helps provide a sense of progression from one expansion to the next, while also allowing devs to leave OP gear behind. That's honestly something I've always DISLIKED about STO, due to the way gearing works here you get situations where, for example, the best tactical consoles are an item that was released eight and a half YEARS ago. Having put many hours into WoW and other MMOs it just doesn't make any sense to me that ancient gear like that is both end game viable and often best-in-slot, but that's what we have because Cryptic linked gearing to monetization (through the dilex and fleet stores using dilithium) and therefore had no choice but to make it upgradable any time they decide to increase the maximum item level/mark.
    After having spent years in WoW, I quit it and never looked back, as it was readily apparent that I could not progress in the game without having the New Shinies that are awarded only for completing certain dungeons that I could never complete because I don't know enough people IRL who play games and PUGs in WoW will routinely drop you like a radioactive spud if you haven't already mastered the new content you need to play through.

    I like it better here, where I can play casually rather than feeling the need to obsessively chase the Next Big Thing because if you you don't have the Next Big Thing you effectively can't play any more.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
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    evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Every time a new expansion drops (like Legacy of the Sith) all current end game gear and many currencies are rendered obsolete.

    That's standard for MMO's and helps provide a sense of progression from one expansion to the next, while also allowing devs to leave OP gear behind. That's honestly something I've always DISLIKED about STO, due to the way gearing works here you get situations where, for example, the best tactical consoles are an item that was released eight and a half YEARS ago. Having put many hours into WoW and other MMOs it just doesn't make any sense to me that ancient gear like that is both end game viable and often best-in-slot, but that's what we have because Cryptic linked gearing to monetization (through the dilex and fleet stores using dilithium) and therefore had no choice but to make it upgradable any time they decide to increase the maximum item level/mark.
    After having spent years in WoW, I quit it and never looked back, as it was readily apparent that I could not progress in the game without having the New Shinies that are awarded only for completing certain dungeons that I could never complete because I don't know enough people IRL who play games and PUGs in WoW will routinely drop you like a radioactive spud if you haven't already mastered the new content you need to play through.

    I like it better here, where I can play casually rather than feeling the need to obsessively chase the Next Big Thing because if you you don't have the Next Big Thing you effectively can't play any more.

    I'll concede that WoW's playerbase can be toxic at times (nowadays it's fairly easy to fake your way through lower difficulty keys while learning a dungeon though), but that doesn't change the fact that acquiring new and better gear over time is an important part of an RPG.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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    jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,396 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Every time a new expansion drops (like Legacy of the Sith) all current end game gear and many currencies are rendered obsolete.

    That's standard for MMO's and helps provide a sense of progression from one expansion to the next, while also allowing devs to leave OP gear behind. That's honestly something I've always DISLIKED about STO, due to the way gearing works here you get situations where, for example, the best tactical consoles are an item that was released eight and a half YEARS ago. Having put many hours into WoW and other MMOs it just doesn't make any sense to me that ancient gear like that is both end game viable and often best-in-slot, but that's what we have because Cryptic linked gearing to monetization (through the dilex and fleet stores using dilithium) and therefore had no choice but to make it upgradable any time they decide to increase the maximum item level/mark.
    After having spent years in WoW, I quit it and never looked back, as it was readily apparent that I could not progress in the game without having the New Shinies that are awarded only for completing certain dungeons that I could never complete because I don't know enough people IRL who play games and PUGs in WoW will routinely drop you like a radioactive spud if you haven't already mastered the new content you need to play through.

    I like it better here, where I can play casually rather than feeling the need to obsessively chase the Next Big Thing because if you you don't have the Next Big Thing you effectively can't play any more.

    I'll concede that WoW's playerbase can be toxic at times (nowadays it's fairly easy to fake your way through lower difficulty keys while learning a dungeon though), but that doesn't change the fact that acquiring new and better gear over time is an important part of an RPG.
    I disagree strongly, but you do you.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    That's standard for MMO's and helps provide a sense of progression from one expansion to the next, while also allowing devs to leave OP gear behind.

    I adamantly disagree with this entire statement. I am not saying I don't respect your opinion, but I could not disagree more. I am not sure what games you play, I don't play a ton of MMO's, but SWTOR is the only one I have ever played that obsoleted gear with expansions. In the case of SWTOR, it certainly isn't to remove OP Gear since all the new gear is vastly more powerful then old gear. In SWTOR, the old max gear score for example was 306, in the expansion, vendor sold 'basic' gear is 334. They pushed the power way up while making the currency used to buy that gear obsolete for everything outside of cosmetics.

    It would be the equivalent to if STO did an expansion where vendors now sold 'trash' gear that was Mark 20 as the starting point, and Dilithium was completely changed to where it's only use was to buy Phoenix Boxes that only contained random chance cosmetics (which is what they did to Tech Fragments.)

    As I said, I will not try and say I am a huge MMO player, I am not. I played SWTOR a lot, the only ones I still play are ESO and STO and occasionally dip back into GW2 but in all those games I am rolling with stuff I have had for a long time and doing just fine. The way SWTOR does it is, in my experience, an outlier and a terrible one at that. Yes, MMO's add new stuff with expansions, but many.. including STO, introduce stuff that's on par with existing gear but offers an alternative. That or they go the ESO/GW2 route and stick with cosmetics. In all of the games I play, I can take a 6-8 month break, jump back in and be ready to rock. On SWTOR if you have been out that long, everything you have is now garbage and you're better off just starting over.

    Many people feel that constantly climbing a gear ladder is an important part of an RPG, I have never agreed with that and I still don't. That's an important part of an action game, the important factor in an RPG is story and character development. SWTOR claims to be an RP/Lore focused game with it's story telling, but pushes the gear treadmill in a ridiculous fashion. If I were to list the things I like about STO one of the first things would be the fact that gear I have earned and upgraded remains relevant. There might be alternatives that come out later, but things I have obtained and upgraded are not going to become obsolete. When mark maximum goes up, I can upgrade my current items. When a new console or trait comes out that makes a new energy type the 'meta' I can jump on it or stick with what I have since the improvement outside of Elite Content will still be negligible. They don't just suddenly release gear who's stats are twice that of the current best stuff in the game, and that's a good thing. Games like STO don't just obsolete gear..

    Unless we're talking about Plasma Exploder consoles.. but lets just all pretend that didn't happen ok? :lol:
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,542 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    Power creep happens in most MMOs whether RPG or shooter, but it sounds like SWTOR takes it too far, power leap not creep.

    I haven't played since the ancient empire arc years ago so I don't know whether I agree or disagree there, but I wouldn't want to rebuild my gear from scratch every year in STO.
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    evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    I am not sure what games you play, I don't play a ton of MMO's, but SWTOR is the only one I have ever played that obsoleted gear with expansions.

    The MMO I've played most over the years is WoW (FF14 is similar according to my wife, and LOTRO and EQ2 were the same back when I played them), and in WoW every content update increases the maximum item level (which determines stats) of gear slightly so that you can continue progressing your character by getting better gear, and therefore getting more powerful, as you play through the new content. This also allows new content to be more challenging when it comes out and easier as you obtain higher ilvl gear, if the item level didn't increase then bosses would need to be made easier and anyone who was fully geared from the previous content would steamroll through the new content without any problems.

    When an expansion comes out they DRASTICALY increase the maximum item level, rendering all previous gear completely obsolete in the new content (including Trinkets (items that give unique abilities, similar to STO's universal consoles), some of which have been considered OP in the expansion they were released in, and expansion-specific gimmicks like artifact weapons and azerite armor) so that everyone resets and gets to progress their character again while also learning whatever new expansion-specific gimmick they've added.

    It feels very rewarding imo to start a new expansion and struggle initially against the new enemies, then come back at the new max level with higher ilvl gear and absolutely destroy those same enemies, and it helps demonstrate how much stronger your character has gotten over the course of their journey. STO has none of that, even a brand new character can be almost fully geared before they even hit level 65, with timegated reputations (which can be bought out) and spec points being the only things that take any amount of time at all.

    The only MMO I ever played that had a gearing system similar to STO was the pre-NGE version of Star Wars Galaxies, but that was more of a sandbox type of experience that was focused on immersion over everything else.
    It would be the equivalent to if STO did an expansion where vendors now sold 'trash' gear that was Mark 20 as the starting point

    That would be normal to me, infact if monetization hadn't already been involved at that time then back in Delta Rising I would have expected them to implement new ways to obtain Mark 13 and 14 gear, and leave the old stuff at Mark 12 instead of adding an upgrade system like they did.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    Power creep happens in most MMOs whether RPG or shooter, but it sounds like SWTOR takes it too far, power leap not creep.

    I haven't played since the ancient empire arc years ago so I don't know whether I agree or disagree there, but I wouldn't want to rebuild my gear from scratch every year in STO.

    It would not be fair of me to make my comments though and not point out that if you're just doing single player story content, you don't need any of the new gear in SWTOR. The game is insanely easy, it makes STO look like a challenge.. you can sleep through most fights so players don't NEED to get up to the new gear score in SWTOR if they don't want to. You do go from having the 'best' to 'middle of the road,' but 'middle of the road' is still overkill for anything outside of vet content.
    That would be normal to me, infact if monetization hadn't already been involved at that time then back in Delta Rising I would have expected them to implement new ways to obtain Mark 13 and 14 gear, and leave the old stuff at Mark 12 instead of adding an upgrade system like they did.

    Fair enough, sounds like we have just played different types of games and therefore have different expectations. Perfectly reasonable and acceptable. :smile:
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    orangenee#2931 orangenee Member Posts: 837 Arc User
    I played SWTOR during the great content drought period after Eternal Throne and gearing was already a horrible nightmare. In fact it was said horrible nightmare that led me to STO.
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    mledelen#6118 mledelen Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    The thing I don't like, is if there is a trait you need... or a cross ship gear you want... you have to buy an entire ship from c-store or a ship bundle if the ship doesn't exist individually which costs more, etc.... just to get the trait or equipment... spending money on a ship you will never play and will probably decommission. Having to spend so much money on Zen to exchange for dilithium for the phoenix boxs for a 1 in 102392312398798472134 chance of getting an epic token for the bajoran interceptor so you can get the D.O.M.I.N.O. console, just to delete the ship afterwards b/c all you wanted was the console. That or spending 5 days to refine 8000 dilithium a day to get the 40k dil to buy a phoenix box....again for the 1 in 102392312398798472134 chance of getting the epic token.

    I'll admit, I spend 100 dollars for Zen to exchange into dilithium to buy the boxes for that console. Thats 10k Zen selling for 500 dil per zen is 5 million dilithium. Thats 125 Pheonix boxes and only got NO epic tokens. It's not a cash box, it's a money pit.
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    duasynduasyn Member Posts: 492 Arc User
    Zen store is expensive, this game is for rich people. But I need 600 lobis for a build I want to do... and come to find out I have to spend apparently over 600 dollars for the keys to get enough to get them. This is a freaking GAME!!! I should have to spend more in a game than I do in my actual life.

    Apparently, opening lockboxes is the only way to get lobis... there needs to be another way to obtain these. Not all of us have hundreds of dollars to throw at a video game per item.

    I want to buy a 2023 model year car. But its not happening.
    There's nothing in this game you NEED.
    In the long run you will be happier not chasing lobi, lockboxes, etc.
    Or at the very least, be patient, do this year's mega event and then choose the free 1500 Lobi. My bet... by the time you can choose the Lobi you won't even care about whatever item(s) you want right now. And even if you do, at least you know what you want is actually useful 8 months later and so will probably be good for a good while! :D

    But yeah, this game is for:
    • People with willpower to not spend money.
    • People with disposable income.
    If you have neither; you will have problems. ;)
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    estes333#8107 estes333 Member Posts: 16 Arc User
    They keep increasing the price because ppl here don't stop feeding the machine. Yes, they need to generate revenue, but their means are egregious at best and NO gaming company should every have a lock box / gambling system in their games. You should know EXACTLY how much you have to spend to earn rewards in game. That is how you truly establish value.
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,143 Community Moderator
    I don't know of any price hikes either. All the C-Store stuff is the same price they've always been. Even before they took out the T1-4 ships, each tier was pretty much 500 zen more than the previous. So T6 at 3k Zen. And its been that way since Delta Rising, when they introduced T6.

    The only thing I really question was the Galaxy interior being 2k Zen by itself. Missed opportunity IMO to have a TNG bundle. I mean we got the DS9 and TOS bundles that come with interiors and more to justify the price. Would have loved a Type 6 shuttle and Dr. Crusher's Lab Coat. -_-
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,143 Community Moderator
    Actually Satra's is customizable if I remember correctly. Pretty sure grey with teal shoulders is not normal.
    However all those special Romulan BOffs have unique parts available to them alone, Satra's biggest being her jacket.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
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    krisxr400krisxr400 Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited March 2022
    I haven't read all of this thread, just the first page and a half. I have to agree to some point with the op. I also agree with some of the comments about "you dont need a lobi build", "events in the past few years have been generous with lobi and lock box ships", "fleet and rep builds are awesome", and the strategy of taking advantage of sale prices. I do think this game is very very expensive. When you compare SOME things you get for real money. I mean every thing in the Mudd store is way over priced. Legendary ship bundles, WOW they are not shy on high prices. Anniversary bundles, again BIG MONEY, with or without sales. I'm not saying everything is nuts, there are many things to purchase that aren't ridiculous. So ya there are alot of items offered that are clearly for elite wallets only, and players who have waaay too much cash and dont feel a thing to burn it, frivolously. Unlike probably most players who are not flush with huge bank rolls.

    Onto the phoenix and lock box topic. so this is my experience and I absolutely hate my experience. I have opened phoenix boxes for eight years straight. Millions in dilithium! I have only received ONE, that is 1 single epic token! I got the nandi btw. I have opened, embarrassingly (this hurts to type because I try not to think about it), 750 effen lock boxes! Before teir 6 came out one day i got a t5 drop for the xindi aquatic ship, that was around open 500. I was so excited I couldn't open the box, I had finially got something I wanted, I also felt like a total SUCKER for paying $500 dollars for something that is NOT REAL! So my emotions were all over the place. A mental twisting of idk my humanity I suppose. SO remember I couldn't open the box because my brain was all twisted up. Get this, the next day, no kidding, I load the game up, there's a new update and I read the notes, they removed the xindi aquatic and came out with T6 xindi auquatic! I honestly felt like there was someone at cryptic laughing their butt off at my stupidity. So over the next few years I get stupid spells again chasing that rabbit and open another 150 lock boxes. I have NEVER, EVER received a T6 award. not one. so there's my odds. 750 boxes, 0 T6 ships. that's a goose egg for spending $750 dollars. I think the real odds which were tested by someone a few years after launch is .001% now those odds I believe. Not the .25% that I read someone wrote in the first page or so.

    So in conclusion, yes this game is very very expensive, can be modestly generous once or twice a year (something new actually), and does have predatory practices. It is also a fun game and can be played without cash. You wont be insta popping or setting records, but it can be played. And if you're not made of money and don't have cash to BURN, yes, you will always be salivating for those awesome awesome star trek ships and gear that you will never, ever, have.

    Edited for the spelling mistakes in my last sentence. :)
    Post edited by krisxr400 on
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    nccmarknccmark Member Posts: 1,083 Arc User
    edited March 2022
    750 is a nothing burger sample size. Not surprised you got nothing, would not have been surprised if you won 10 ships. RNGesus is .... well, random.

    Plenty of others have opened tens/hundreds of thousands of boxes in rapid fire.
    Results generally agree with ---
    • appr 1 in 250 chance (0.004%) of winning a ship when opening a lockbox with a master key,
    • appr 1 in 100 (0.010%) when opening a (more expensive) Promotion! pack.
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    koihimenakamurakoihimenakamura Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    That's standard for MMO's and helps provide a sense of progression from one expansion to the next, while also allowing devs to leave OP gear behind.

    I adamantly disagree with this entire statement. I am not saying I don't respect your opinion, but I could not disagree more. I am not sure what games you play, I don't play a ton of MMO's, but SWTOR is the only one I have ever played that obsoleted gear with expansions. In the case of SWTOR, it certainly isn't to remove OP Gear since all the new gear is vastly more powerful then old gear. In SWTOR, the old max gear score for example was 306, in the expansion, vendor sold 'basic' gear is 334. They pushed the power way up while making the currency used to buy that gear obsolete for everything outside of cosmetics.

    It would be the equivalent to if STO did an expansion where vendors now sold 'trash' gear that was Mark 20 as the starting point, and Dilithium was completely changed to where it's only use was to buy Phoenix Boxes that only contained random chance cosmetics (which is what they did to Tech Fragments.)

    As I said, I will not try and say I am a huge MMO player, I am not. I played SWTOR a lot, the only ones I still play are ESO and STO and occasionally dip back into GW2 but in all those games I am rolling with stuff I have had for a long time and doing just fine. The way SWTOR does it is, in my experience, an outlier and a terrible one at that. Yes, MMO's add new stuff with expansions, but many.. including STO, introduce stuff that's on par with existing gear but offers an alternative. That or they go the ESO/GW2 route and stick with cosmetics. In all of the games I play, I can take a 6-8 month break, jump back in and be ready to rock. On SWTOR if you have been out that long, everything you have is now garbage and you're better off just starting over.

    Many people feel that constantly climbing a gear ladder is an important part of an RPG, I have never agreed with that and I still don't. That's an important part of an action game, the important factor in an RPG is story and character development. SWTOR claims to be an RP/Lore focused game with it's story telling, but pushes the gear treadmill in a ridiculous fashion. If I were to list the things I like about STO one of the first things would be the fact that gear I have earned and upgraded remains relevant. There might be alternatives that come out later, but things I have obtained and upgraded are not going to become obsolete. When mark maximum goes up, I can upgrade my current items. When a new console or trait comes out that makes a new energy type the 'meta' I can jump on it or stick with what I have since the improvement outside of Elite Content will still be negligible. They don't just suddenly release gear who's stats are twice that of the current best stuff in the game, and that's a good thing. Games like STO don't just obsolete gear..

    Unless we're talking about Plasma Exploder consoles.. but lets just all pretend that didn't happen ok? :lol:

    So uh.. you want a game that effectively rewards people who have played 5 years ago, but not today. That'st he thing. That's why RPGs (see FFXIV, see FFXI, see WoW, see ...) do that. New players can play at any time and get *good enough* gear to compete, while the raiders can get top-of-the-line gear. FFXIV, for example has several tiers of "end game" gear, and you can casually grind to get good-enough gear to do the end-game content (although you'll have to pay a lot more raiding time and prep to get the best end-game gear.) This is considered standard to RPG progression: as you advance in levels, you need to get better gear.

    As for SWTOR: I admit I haven't gotten to the newest expansion yet (becasue KotFE bores the hell out of me), but that's just a more aggressive model of the new expansion obsoleting the old gear. It happens.

    As for STO: For the price of a new ship, I can buy two games on Steam.

    That is frankly ridiculous. STO is already thin on content that isn't doing the same TFOs over and over again.

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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited March 2022
    So uh.. you want a game that effectively rewards people who have played 5 years ago, but not today.

    I will assume you misquoted me since I never said anything even remotely close to that. That would not be an accurate assessment of what I want, not in the least.

    Insert witty signature line here.
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    koihimenakamurakoihimenakamura Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    So uh.. you want a game that effectively rewards people who have played 5 years ago, but not today.

    I will assume you misquoted me since I never said anything even remotely close to that. That would not be an accurate assessment of what I want, not in the least.

    Then I'm at a loss. Because that's what you implied.
    If I were to list the things I like about STO one of the first things would be the fact that gear I have earned and upgraded remains relevant. There might be alternatives that come out later, but things I have obtained and upgraded are not going to become obsolete.

    This has a necessary implication: While, yes, sure, new players can do that, if they miss an event several years ago, they will have to spend a lot more time to get it. It rewards longer term players who can play event, and *have* played every event over players who join later.

    Having expansions obsolete old gear means that sure, you'll want to spend time providing an upgrade path for event gear (FFXIV does this sorta with relic weapon quests..), but if you can't, that's fine, play the dungeons in the expansions a bit to get "reasonbly-good" end game gear, but you don't have to put in excessive time or money to get the same gear that the old players have.

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    phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,618 Arc User
    While older gear can be hard to get the new stuff coming out has the same potential as the older stuff generally, it is a matter of shuffling the combinations around to see if the synergies work well. Not obsolescing gear is a good thing, it adds to the variety of viable build possibilities, and the kind of power creep the constant turnover as things become obsolete tends to encourage always causes problems in the long run.
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    koihimenakamurakoihimenakamura Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    While older gear can be hard to get the new stuff coming out has the same potential as the older stuff generally, it is a matter of shuffling the combinations around to see if the synergies work well. Not obsolescing gear is a good thing, it adds to the variety of viable build possibilities, and the kind of power creep the constant turnover as things become obsolete tends to encourage always causes problems in the long run.

    I disagree categorically, because STO has power creep as it is. Managed, and produced power creep is an expected thing. (Even if FFXIV, which is the example I keep going to, had to nerf some numbers on the release of 7.0)
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited March 2022
    While older gear can be hard to get the new stuff coming out has the same potential as the older stuff generally, it is a matter of shuffling the combinations around to see if the synergies work well. Not obsolescing gear is a good thing, it adds to the variety of viable build possibilities, and the kind of power creep the constant turnover as things become obsolete tends to encourage always causes problems in the long run.

    I disagree categorically, because STO has power creep as it is. Managed, and produced power creep is an expected thing. (Even if FFXIV, which is the example I keep going to, had to nerf some numbers on the release of 7.0)

    Power creep is the result of lack of imagination.

    Any developer that can add 2+2 can make better gear by just adding bigger numbers, that's hardly progress and it's a critical failing in most MMO's. You add more numbers to the players, the game becomes lop sided so you add bigger numbers to the bad guys. It goes on and on, and while the numbers are bigger, nothing actually changes. It's the same game play loops with bigger numbers.

    What takes more imagination is introduction of gear that offers new build possibilities, and STO has actually done a pretty good job of that. In fact, right now STO has quite the range of build diversity and it came from the introduction of gear and abilities that was more then just the typical brain dead 'bigger numbers.' Yes, in some cases, they have just pushed numbers, but they have also introduced items and abilities that have made science builds, torpedo builds, carrier builds and differing energy types and styles (beams vs cannons) all perfectly viable. Drake Builds still work great, Aux2Bat works, builds using Boimler trait for cooldown, there is a wide variety right now in STO.

    They didn't obsolete gear that was good for DEW builds, they just added new types of gear to open build possibilities. That is actual variety, and that's what creates parity in builds. 'Bigger numbers' does none of that.

    The older gear I refer to that is still viable is still available to everyone. There are very few items in STO that are staples in a build that are no longer available. The fact that old gear is still relevant doesn't in any way prohibit new players from anything. They can still get that gear, it's mostly rep and fleet gear that people have been using forever that's still good and still very accessible. The only thing I can even think of that is somewhat hard to get would be the 'Cold Hearted' trait from a previous event ship, but even that is just a 'nice to have' that only applies to A2B builds. Things like traits from lockbox or event ships have the same cost of acquisition for veteran players as they do for new players.

    I have stated that I like the fact that gear I have earned and upgraded is still relevant. You translated that into me saying I don't want new players to be able to get things I have. I never said or implied anything of the kind, I am not talking about gear that is no longer widely available, that was an inaccurate assumption.

    The progress we have had over the last couple of years took place because developers took the polar opposite of the approach you are advocating for. Variety and options are what further parity and diversification. Obsoleting older items just to re-add them with bigger numbers is an incredibly unimaginative methodology. Just because other games do it, doesn't make it good. Adding new options in parallel with existing options is a win/win for everyone.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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