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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,664 Arc User
    > But I need 600 lobis for a build I want to do... and come to find out I have to spend apparently over 600 dollars for the keys to get enough to get them.

    Lock boxes contain 4-5 lobi each, so not 600 dollars. 100 of them would also get you a pile of weapon packs, traits, etc. that you could use or sell on the exchange along with a 33% chance at getting a T6 ship.

    You can also buy lock box keys from the exchange for energy credits. You can also trade dil for zen to buy keys but on PC it can take a week or more for your dil sale to go through.

    All of the game content can be played for free, Cryptic gives away 3 free event ships a year, and also just gave away a free T6 ship token. One of the choices as the free reward for Event Campaign III was 1,500 lobi.

    But yes, if you just want 600 lobi to spend on something it is expensive.
    100 lock boxes got me 410 lobi. Buying 100 keys cost $115.00. so, yea, I was wrong...but still expensive.

    The thrifty way:
    - buy zen on sale
    - buy keys on sale
    - sell the lock box contents that you don't want as you open them, to buy lock box keys
    - also grind EC for keys and dil for zen (1-2 week delay) to buy keys

  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,008 Arc User
    @angrytarg - do you not realize that with the 12th anniversary pack you can buy 4 of the 5 ships individually for 2400 zen? Just like any other C-Store ship?

    If you're going to criticize Cryptic you picked the wrong bundle to throw stones at.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/11507853-the-12th-anniversary-terran-bundle!

    "As an alternative to the great deal that this Bundle offers, the four new Terran starships will also be made available as separate purchases on the Z-Store, at the standard price of a Tier 6 Starship: 3,000 Zen each. These starships will participate in a Z-Store-Wide Ship Sale which will be active from February 17th, 2022 until February 22nd, 2022, reducing this price to 2,400 Zen each (20% Off!). "

    I know that the ships are available seperately. I did not "throw stones" at anything. Because neither I, nor OP, asked for any advice how to get things cheaper. The point of the discussion was simply that the prices in this game are quite hefty for what you get. The bundle is still priced at 175€ - sales or not, that is the asking price.​​
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,664 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    That's less than the $180 per year, every year, to play WoW or FF XIV *

    * there are sales for buying play time in bulk, but we're ignoring sales now.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,664 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    reyan01 wrote: »
    That's less than the $180 per year, every year, to play WoW or FF XIV *

    * there are sales for buying play time in bulk, but we're ignoring sales now.

    Except in FFXIV's case I don't mind paying the monthly subscription since am paying for a GAME with a huge wealth of content.

    STO? Well, you can present the fact that this cash-grab ship bundle is better value than a subscription to another game but I, personally, disagree. STO has become little more than FOMO-fueled play-on-repeat events, gambleboxes and 'Ship/Bundle of the Week/Month' now. It's been like that for years. We've had no new Reputation, no new Specialization, no new Fleet Holding, no expansion of R&D (which is a joke to be honest), Admirality or Doff systems - nothing like that, for years! Nothing to invest ourselves long-term. Nothing new to look forward to except more FOMO events, gambleboxes, and ships to use in the same old content. I'm drowning in Reputation marks, the Fleets I'm in are maxed out and the in-game ecomony is a laughable mess. And none of this is liable to change.

    I mean, I was mildly interested in one of the ships from the upcoming bundle until I reminded myself that there is no point - why would I want to another ship? To play in the recycled Borg Resurgence 'event'? No thanks.

    STO has had new story episodes every year, so there is new content. It does sound like FF XIV is offering more content for the money though they have a guaranteed $150+ per player every year to work with while with STO it is $0 - $??? per player. If only 10% of STO players spent $200 this year, that is $20 per player to work with.

    WoW collected its $150-180 and only offered 1 content update in 2021, along with a $25 cash shop item (flying cat mount).
  • jozen#9312 jozen Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    Hmm Elden Ring $79.99, Garbage that I already have in a different colour, $175. Seems fair
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,664 Arc User
    jozen#9312 wrote: »
    Hmm Elden Ring $79.99, Garbage that I already have in a different colour, $175. Seems fair

    The nice thing about STO is that you can keep playing it for the rest of 2022 for $0. Though that's one reason why we do get less story content.
  • jozen#9312 jozen Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    jozen#9312 wrote: »
    Hmm Elden Ring $79.99, Garbage that I already have in a different colour, $175. Seems fair

    The nice thing about STO is that you can keep playing it for the rest of 2022 for $0. Though that's one reason why we do get less story content.

    Dave, for the amount that I've spent on this game, I should have a donator's plaque. There is no value to anything being offered any more. The released what 4? versions of the Miranda this year. Come on. I have over 200 ships. Another is worth maybe $5 to me at this point, which means...I'm FTP now.

    Their marketing department is out of touch. No add-on is worth the price that they ask. No amount of "free" content is worth what they ask. It's all the same anyways. No doubt people will pay, probably a fair number given the forums. Doesn't make it right and good.

    This is a 10+ year old game with a donation scheme that makes Path of Exile seem reasonable, reliant of the goodwill of a few people with apparently more money than good sense. The DIl exchange would seem to indicate that that well is running dry.

    As a new player, some of these huge packs and application software level pricing may make sense, but do they really to you and I? Ships hit saturation 2 years ago. We don't need any more. Flying Intrepid mk15 is not a new game experience. It's the same thing with a different icon.

    I'm already OP. I don't need any more flashy gimmicks or $10 get one more item slot I don't need tokens. I'd like a few less so I can actually see the game.

    I'd happily pay a sub fee if the content and development warranted such...but I'm also a lifetime sub so that well is dry.

    What I'm trying to express here is that I am willing to spend money, but they have to make it worth my investment. They have not held up their end well enough.

    The only thing that STO has going for it it the lack of any real competition for this particular hybrid game and the IP. The individual parts are better in other games. Really the space battles aren't remarkably different to Star Fury from Malfador probably 11 or 12 years ago.

    STO is not a bad game, really, but it is long in the tooth and very repetitive. You seriously have to question why one should be willing to spend exhorbitant fees for mediocre and more often than no these days recycled product



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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,115 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    Me personally though... based on when I bought it, I've already gotten more than double my purchase price back in the stipend.... and there are people who had it years before I did (June 2014).
    Yeah - I got the LTS while it was offered in the open beta just before the "Actual launch" in Feb 2010 - although I've dropped a lot of money for Zen for keys to get all the T6 Connie versions; with the exception of the Disco Mirror Connie <--- That I got via the 'play all events for a year and 'pick' a Lockbox ship...

    I bought Keys for Zen and sold them on the Exchange to get the EC to directly buy as I didn't with the Lockboxes. At the start, I'd try with one 10 pack of keys, and if I didn't get the ship [and I never did] - I'd sell stuff just to buy one from the EC Exchange.)

    Overall I've still paid more RL cash to Cryptic then I've gotten back via the $5.00 a month in Zen I get:

    To date: 12*12* 500 = 72000 Zen that further equates to $720.00

    But yeah, the LTS was around $240 or so if I recall (the 'deal price' during early access/open beta in January 2010); so that would mean Atari/PWE/Cryptic have paid me $480.00 in Zen above what I originally paid for my LTS; and over the last 10 years, I've probably spent around $800 in RL cash (above the initial $240 for the LTS)...

    So $1040.00 - $720 = $320.

    $320/144 = $2.20 a month is what I've effectively paid Cryptic to play STO over the last 12+ years. ;)

    (So yeah after 12 years, I'm STILL paying $2.20 a month per 500 Zen ;) )
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    Me personally though... based on when I bought it, I've already gotten more than double my purchase price back in the stipend.... and there are people who had it years before I did (June 2014).
    Yeah - I got the LTS while it was offered in the open beta just before the "Actual launch" in Feb 2010 - although I've dropped a lot of money for Zen for keys to get all the T6 Connie versions; with the exception of the Disco Mirror Connie <--- That I got via the 'play all events for a year and 'pick' a Lockbox ship...

    I bought Keys for Zen and sold them on the Exchange to get the EC to directly buy as I didn't with the Lockboxes. At the start, I'd try with one 10 pack of keys, and if I didn't get the ship [and I never did] - I'd sell stuff just to buy one from the EC Exchange.)

    Overall I've still paid more RL cash to Cryptic then I've gotten back via the $5.00 a month in Zen I get:

    To date: 12*12* 500 = 72000 Zen that further equates to $720.00

    But yeah, the LTS was around $240 or so if I recall (the 'deal price' during early access/open beta in January 2010); so that would mean Atari/PWE/Cryptic have paid me $480.00 in Zen above what I originally paid for my LTS; and over the last 10 years, I've probably spent around $800 in RL cash (above the initial $240 for the LTS)...

    So $1040.00 - $720 = $320.

    $320/144 = $2.20 a month is what I've effectively paid Cryptic to play STO over the last 12+ years. ;)

    (So yeah after 12 years, I'm STILL paying $2.20 a month per 500 Zen ;) )

    There's one extra detail you forgot about the value you've gotten from having the lifetime sub for so long. For the first two years the game was not free to play, and would have cost approx $345 in sub fees over the first 23 months, so that's another $105 or so that you saved.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,664 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    jozen#9312 wrote: »
    jozen#9312 wrote: »
    Hmm Elden Ring $79.99, Garbage that I already have in a different colour, $175. Seems fair

    The nice thing about STO is that you can keep playing it for the rest of 2022 for $0. Though that's one reason why we do get less story content.

    Dave, for the amount that I've spent on this game, I should have a donator's plaque. There is no value to anything being offered any more. The released what 4? versions of the Miranda this year. Come on. I have over 200 ships. Another is worth maybe $5 to me at this point, which means...I'm FTP now.

    Their marketing department is out of touch. No add-on is worth the price that they ask. No amount of "free" content is worth what they ask. It's all the same anyways. No doubt people will pay, probably a fair number given the forums. Doesn't make it right and good.

    This is a 10+ year old game with a donation scheme that makes Path of Exile seem reasonable, reliant of the goodwill of a few people with apparently more money than good sense. The DIl exchange would seem to indicate that that well is running dry.

    As a new player, some of these huge packs and application software level pricing may make sense, but do they really to you and I? Ships hit saturation 2 years ago. We don't need any more. Flying Intrepid mk15 is not a new game experience. It's the same thing with a different icon.

    I'm already OP. I don't need any more flashy gimmicks or $10 get one more item slot I don't need tokens. I'd like a few less so I can actually see the game.

    I'd happily pay a sub fee if the content and development warranted such...but I'm also a lifetime sub so that well is dry.

    What I'm trying to express here is that I am willing to spend money, but they have to make it worth my investment. They have not held up their end well enough.

    The only thing that STO has going for it it the lack of any real competition for this particular hybrid game and the IP. The individual parts are better in other games. Really the space battles aren't remarkably different to Star Fury from Malfador probably 11 or 12 years ago.

    STO is not a bad game, really, but it is long in the tooth and very repetitive. You seriously have to question why one should be willing to spend exhorbitant fees for mediocre and more often than no these days recycled product

    Those are all good points for those of us with a fleet of ships and more gear than they know what to do with.

    I consider the 10th Anniversary 10-pack a great value for players who prefer fed ships and don't already own an armada, but I haven't bought it myself despite being easily able to afford it. That's because I already own a TOS Connie and the C-Store T6 Defiant, along with so many other ships I don't have time to fly most of them.

    I see both sides on both pricing and content:

    - If you have 20+ ships already most of the new ships aren't interesting (and personally I can't stand the 32c ship designs)
    - If you're new and can afford them, some of the bundles offer a good value, at least compared to the lock box / promo pack single character unlocks and considering that you don't need to spend $150+ a year on a subscription

    - If you're a new player, there is 10+ years of story content, all for free. Ships costing $24+ is a reasonable substitute for paying $15 a month ( + $xx for content packs for FF XIV)
    - If you're an old timer like us, there is only a trickle of new content, and no good way to pay for more of it. Buying ships just seems to get Cryptic to make new ships not story episodes.

    I have a lifetime sub, but I'd still be willing to pay for new story content like @thegrandnagus1 wished for here - https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1265409/dear-devs-kael-how-can-i-use-my-money-to-show-that-i-want-more-mission-episode-type-content#latest

    I'd agree the game is in trouble for old-time players except for completists and super-fans who buy everything.

    Edit: one defense of the Ship of the Month club, is often there are players who really want that specific ship, so its release makes them happy. There are people who like the 32c ships. There are people who waited many years to get a T6 Nova. Just because I don't want the ships doesn't mean their release is pointless. It's just sad that they aren't funding much new story content.



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  • nommo#5819 nommo Member Posts: 1,105 Arc User
    Want always gets expensive I'm afraid.

    Too true.

    Also, not sure if mledelen is just ignorant of some facts or was just trolling since unhappy with the cost of his/her wants.

    It's a steep grind to acquire what one wants if not willing to spend real-life money, but it's possible with patience especially now with how the Dilithium Exchange is now but still possible.
  • mledelen#6118 mledelen Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    - also grind EC for keys and dil for zen (1-2 week delay) to buy keys

    I've had 100k dilithium for sale for 2 weeks, no buyers. Don't think anyone wants to sell their zen for 500 dilithium at a time... they need to raise the cap.
  • mledelen#6118 mledelen Member Posts: 23 Arc User
    nommo#5819 wrote: »
    Want always gets expensive I'm afraid.

    Too true.

    Also, not sure if mledelen is just ignorant of some facts or was just trolling since unhappy with the cost of his/her wants.

    It's a steep grind to acquire what one wants if not willing to spend real-life money, but it's possible with patience especially now with how the Dilithium Exchange is now but still possible.

    I never called anyone any names or insulted anyone... I would appreciate the same courtesy. I just wanted thoughts on the subject, and I asked for thoughts by sharing my opinion.

    And no, alot of items that are actually OP can only be gotten with Zen or Lobi. Both of which costs real money.

    Also, and the zen/dil exchange doesn't work. I've had 100k of dil for sale for 2 weeks, not one sale. And from the comments and in-game discussions, until they raise the dil cap, noone wants to sell they zen for pennies on the dollar.

  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,596 Community Moderator
    I've had 100k dilithium for sale for 2 weeks, no buyers. Don't think anyone wants to sell their zen for 500 dilithium at a time... they need to raise the cap.

    Raising the cap won't solve the problem. It will just mean you'll get LESS zen than you can now for your Dilithium because it will either be autocapped at the new top or it will creep up to the new cap and we'll be right back at square one.
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  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 1,511 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I've had 100k dilithium for sale for 2 weeks, no buyers. Don't think anyone wants to sell their zen for 500 dilithium at a time... they need to raise the cap.

    Raising the cap won't solve the problem. It will just mean you'll get LESS zen than you can now for your Dilithium because it will either be autocapped at the new top or it will creep up to the new cap and we'll be right back at square one.

    Plus, I have multiple reports from Zen buyers on the dilex at current backlog amounts it takes between 12 - 16 days for requests to be filled. I have had no reports from anyone wanting to buy Zen at the 500 limit that their sale never gets processed.
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  • orangenee#2931 orangenee Member Posts: 837 Arc User
    - also grind EC for keys and dil for zen (1-2 week delay) to buy keys

    I've had 100k dilithium for sale for 2 weeks, no buyers. Don't think anyone wants to sell their zen for 500 dilithium at a time... they need to raise the cap.

    They already tried that on Neverwinter, didn't work and hit the new cap in two days, problem continues.

    For the old timers there's nothing to spend dil on, the issue is where do they put a long term sink, Cryptic don't want to do new holdings or new gear.

    There's too many short sighted bean counters in management to counter it.

    The playerbase doesn't help either as the 'wait for sale' mentality compounds the issue further, Cryptic just hold more sales driving the Zen demand further.






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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,951 Arc User
    The playerbase doesn't help either as the 'wait for sale' mentality compounds the issue further, Cryptic just hold more sales driving the Zen demand further.

    you cant fault the player base for wanting to wait for sales on things that are over priced...

    Usually the intro sale is the best you'll get, there are a few rare times they've broken that rule but generally subsequent sales aren't as good as the intro.
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  • faelon#8433 faelon Member Posts: 358 Arc User
    as stated by me in another thread, STO has become the "Ship of the Month," club.
    Well yes. Because that is a business model that seems rather strikingly appealing to Star Trek Fans. Take note of Eaglemoss. and honestly most other MMO F2P business models are way more predatory and cheesy than "Ship of the Month Club". Look at it this way, if you buy 6 ships/year you've just equaled your subscription cost of WoW of FFXIV. And a ship/month is a far far faster addition of content than Blizzard has ever been capable.

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  • alexveccialexvecci Member Posts: 119 Arc User
    If ships were content, that might be applicable. Which is the fundamental problem with STO's monetization model -- they sell us tools, but only very sparsely provide new things to do with them. I get that there's a distinct problem of how to monetize content in F2P games (vs monetizing cosmetics and the like), particularly in MMOs where there's a strong drive to create social-gaming activities. You don't want to overly fragment group activities or you run the risk of turning new players away. Unfortunately, that monetization ship has sailed. They've latched onto this model and won't do anything to change it unless and until it starts failing them. Risk aversion and all that.

    I have played almost since release, and i can agree with this assessment.

    I guess it falls under the same umbrella as cryptic's handling of all older contents.
    It's easier to remove it or bury it, hoping that people will forget it once the new, shinier thing is dangled in front of their noses, so that they will have no obligation under the sun to ever care about fixing it or updating it to newer 'standards'.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,115 Arc User
    edited February 2022
    alexvecci wrote: »
    If ships were content, that might be applicable. Which is the fundamental problem with STO's monetization model -- they sell us tools, but only very sparsely provide new things to do with them. I get that there's a distinct problem of how to monetize content in F2P games (vs monetizing cosmetics and the like), particularly in MMOs where there's a strong drive to create social-gaming activities. You don't want to overly fragment group activities or you run the risk of turning new players away. Unfortunately, that monetization ship has sailed. They've latched onto this model and won't do anything to change it unless and until it starts failing them. Risk aversion and all that.

    I have played almost since release, and i can agree with this assessment.

    I guess it falls under the same umbrella as cryptic's handling of all older contents.
    It's easier to remove it or bury it, hoping that people will forget it once the new, shinier thing is dangled in front of their noses, so that they will have no obligation under the sun to ever care about fixing it or updating it to newer 'standards'.

    We also have the problem of a Lead Game Designer on STO (Al Rivera) who has oft made the comment:

    "Star Trek Online has too much content..."
    (And yes, he's always referring to playable content when he makes that statement, which he's oft repeated over the years in various interviews.)

    When you keep someone like that as a lead on a project, no - "new content" isn't going to be at the top of his list when prioritizing development resources.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
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