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A Reminder on How to Have a Discussion

ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,673 Community Manager
Hey folks, Kael here. I wanted to chat with everyone, especially as we continue to move into this new era of Trek content, and remind you all that everyone on this forum is a human being that you are interacting with. We've had a lot of passionate discussions over the past few years, and a lot of moderator actions and warnings having to be handed out that shouldn't have been necessary. So let's talk a little bit about how we should all be behaving on this forum (and online in general, really.).

When you're in a conversation online, it is very easy to forget the humanity of the participants. The other person is just an image and a made up name, so it's very easy to boil them down into just the things you don't like. (This is also true of folks you can't interact with normally, like the creatives of Star Trek or the developers of Star Trek Online.) The best approach is to imagine your conversation happening in the real world. Read what you've just typed, out loud, to yourself or to a friend if you need. Imagine yourself in the other person's shoes. If you find that the statement has made you mad, or upset, it's probably best to rephrase.

"I feel" statements are really important, here. We have a tendency, especially in our wonderful nerd community, to jump to all or nothing, blanket statements that, while they may describe how we feel, don't contribute anything to an actual discussion except get an emotional response out of other users. For example: "[Star Trek Show] is hot trash," is a declarative, universal statement that does nothing but inspire anger in folks who DO like that show. "I don't like, [Star Trek Show] because [reasons]," is a discussion, and one that can be had, civilly.

I'm a firm believer in the "remove the problem," method of Community Management. As we move forward, folks who can't contribute civilly will be asked to not contribute at all. Whether this means warnings or bans will depend on the situation, but there is a lovely community here on the forums, and I'm sure you are as sick as I am of having it drowned out in wars over things that are, ultimately, insignificant.

Cryptic Studios, the STO development team, and the creatives behind Star Trek have and will do things that make you upset. As fans, we dedicate a lot of our lives to these properties and games, and it's reasonable to feel upset, disappointed, or even angry when something happens that you don't agree with. I'm not saying that any criticism is frowned upon. To repeat that in bold: I'm not saying any negativity will be frowned upon. But we have to be able to critique constructively, using statements that explain how we feel, instead of responding in a way that will only make others upset. I know you all can do it.

Thanks!
Post edited by ambassadorkael#6946 on
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Comments

  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,301 Arc User
    I am going to read this again tomorrow to make sure that whatever i just read is justifying the anger i feel about the tone used.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,331 Arc User
    @ambassadorkael#6946 You are absolutely on point about what you say. The lack of 'constructive' argument is evident from a few, and the way some treat moderators is abysmal. A poster was complaining about a moderator 'getting the last word' before closing their post the other day. If the moderator closed a post without giving a reason, they'd complain about that to! Accusations of 'favouritism' aside, I think the moderators have always done a decent job with this tough crowd.

    However, I will point out that communications on this official forum are nearly always behind that of Twitter, Reddit and even Facebook. This forum should be the first port of call for any and all posts. Not all of us want to be checking 3 other platforms for our information because Twitter and Reddit are especially superflouous to requirements for us, given the lack of control of their own anti-troll and unaccountibility methods. What maybe 'easier' for one, isn't for others.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,673 Community Manager
    Hey folks!

    I will continue to try and get better about monitoring these forums and answering your questions. You're right, I could be better about that. Part of that, if I'm honest, is that it's hard to get up the will to even open threads with titles like, "WHAT THE HELL, CRYPTIC?" :)

    But - and this is very important. You can be upset and call me out about not communicating enough. Just do so constructively is all I'm asking. The rage posts serve no greater purpose.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,673 Community Manager
    I'm gonna try and have a discussion here with you, Chive, but one of the things I'm running into is that folks have a tendency to project all kinds of things on me, as you mentioned before. While intent is not as important as impact, there does need to be a little bit of an effort both ways, here.

    So let's talk about that "new rule," which was actually me clarifying an old rule. There are some folks that seem to think I crossed the line by saying out right that wishing a dev would be fired is against the rules. I've heard a lot of talk about censorship and a lot more about how I must be thin skinned and self absorbed because that no rule is entirely about me.

    That rule was actually inspired by the person on Reddit who said one of my coworkers should be fired, in the same post where they implied said developer should be shot out an airlock. And saying, "this person should be fired," shows a complete lack of what I was trying to talk about in the OP of this thread - understanding that the people you're talking about are human beings. "I wish this person would lose their job," also means, "I wish this person would suddenly have to struggle to pay rent and bills. I wish this person would lose the ability to take care of their family. I wish this person would have to perhaps move and leave the things they love behind." Now, some people will read what I just wrote and say, "Yes, we should be able to say that, because we were disappointed in a decision that was made about a Star Trek video game."

    The culture of "the customer is always right," has lead to a lot of people who believe that what they want is more important than another person's humanity. You see it every day as people berate staff members at restaurants and stores over things that are, ultimately, trivial. You see it happen on these forums, and on Twitter, and on Reddit, and elsewhere every single day. And it *is* my job to go through all of that, and come up with actionable feedback for the team. But the thing about that is - most of the time, I already know what ya'll are going to say.

    I've been at this for five years now. It isn't a sudden surprise to me that folks are upset when a blog has a mistake, that they want me to be fired, that some of them would prefer I stop breathing. (Again, over a Star Trek video game.) I've put procedures in place to help with the issues, and they have gotten less and less over time. But I don't need to read 500 comments about how much people hate my guts when I make a mistake. I don't need to read 1000 comments about our pricing model to know some folks are unhappy with things like Mudd's. That's information I already have, and can pass on with a glance.

    When you say, "be a part of this community," I would love to. I would love to chat with folks about STO and Star Trek, to listen to constructive feedback, to meet the people who play our game. That's actually the point of this thread. Because, you see, it isn't part of anyone's job to just stand there and be abused. It's not. I don't get paid for that, it's not a part of my job description, and I certainly have never had my boss sit me down in a review and say, "You need to be insulted more." :) The more that I can see actual discussion happening, the more I, and more importantly the other developers, will be interested in participating. If all we see is folks acting like bullies, then the forum will probably continue as it is. I'll check it, look at the threads for feedback to pass on, and move on with my day without interacting.

    Again, constructive conversation is not being 100% positivity. Constructive conversation is taking the moment to understand that the other person in a conversation is also a human being. It's very easy on the internet to reduce someone down to a caricature. What I'm asking is that people take a moment to think about how they would feel if they were confronted by the same tone and language. And if it seems like it would anger you, if it seems like it only exists to provoke an emotional response, please don't post it.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Well, here's some constructive criticism - dropping a new Mudd's bundle with barely any warning is not a good way to get sales...people need to budget around things that extremely expensive, especially given it was dropped with less than 2 weeks to Christmas day and a good majority of people have probably finished or are in the process of finishing their Christmas shopping and likely don't have much money left.

    Stuff like that should be announced at least a week in advance, especially if there's a sale that only lasts so long tied to it, and doubly especially if it's close to a major holiday - you might want to let whoever is in charge of things like that know that.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,673 Community Manager
    > @legendarylycan#5411 said:
    > Well, here's some constructive criticism - dropping a new Mudd's bundle with barely any warning is not a good way to get sales...people need to budget around things that extremely expensive, especially given it was dropped with less than 2 weeks to Christmas day and a good majority of people have probably finished or are in the process of finishing their Christmas shopping and likely don't have much money left.
    >
    > Stuff like that should be announced at least a week in advance, especially if there's a sale that only lasts so long tied to it, and doubly especially if it's close to a major holiday - you might want to let whoever is in charge of things like that know that.​​

    While this is wildly off topic to the thread, it IS an example of a well thought out, constructive post. Thank you!
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,673 Community Manager
    So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,673 Community Manager
    Folks, we're getting to a point here. Believe me, your point about wanting me to be here more often has been made. Please understand, I cannot and will not see or respond to every ping I get on here. To expect that is, I'm sorry, as unreasonable as expecting that I respond to every tweet or FB message STO gets. I'll do my best to respond to key issues or things that are on the front page of the forum. That, I can promise, but the demand that I be personally attentive to every single question or demand on here is not going to happen. I have more job duties than this forum, and when the job day ends I'm going to choose spending time with my family over you folks.

    Now this thread was about having a civil discussion, and we're starting to descend into accusations and petty bickering amongst yourselves. I'll ask this one time to stop with the assumptions against me and against your fellow users, or otherwise we will have to shut this thing down.

    Remember the point of this thread. Treat people as human beings.
  • livinlifejb90#4082 livinlifejb90 Member Posts: 218 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.

    Why not demand better working conditions? Are you getting paid for every different hat you're wearing? If you're doing 16 different jobs, then your salary should reflect that. Or you know, you could bring up to your bosses that 1 person working 16 roles is absolutely ridiculous, and frankly unfair worker treatment. And potentially illegal if you are not being fairly compensated or given adequate time off.​​
    gQytlm7.jpg
  • captainkoltarcaptainkoltar Member Posts: 895 Arc User
    Transparency in that post is clearly intended to help other people in his field.

    It's not intended for us to pass judgement on his salary.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    [Edit: Off topic, my apologies]
    Post edited by angrytarg on
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    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • quinnftw76#3498 quinnftw76 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    I will continue to try and get better about monitoring these forums and answering your questions. You're right, I could be better about that.

    Sorry, I am not a frequent contributor, and perhaps I'm off base here, but I thought Badd Moon Rizin was in charge of monitoring the forums. Are they not the Community Manager? Has there been a recent change?

    This isn't a TRIBBLE post. I am genuinely asking, because I don't follow all the comings and goings closely.

  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,666 Bug Hunter
    edited December 2021
    He is a member of the Volunteer Community Team as am I, though my role is a bit different. I have on a few occasion worked with DEV's to resolve issues. Still everyone in this thread is a person, be they a developer, or another Cryptic Employee; or just someone who enjoys Star Trek! AmbassadorKael is a Cryptic Employee, he is our Official Community Moderator! As was LaughingTrendy before him. The Volunteer team helps assist where they can, either notifying on Bugs in game, or trying to prevent someone from going too far making personal attacks.

    I think Kael's comment which someone quoted above, "Now this thread was about having a civil discussion, and we're starting to descend into accusations and petty bickering amongst yourselves. I'll ask this one time to stop with the assumptions against me and against your fellow users, or otherwise we will have to shut this thing down."

    Personally I was a little disappointed, as conversation shifted to another post he tweeted! What many may not realize is that Kael only tweeted that to support another CM (female) and trying to show Cryptic compensates employees in similar roles, very similar rates regardless of their sex; based on their experience. That female employee is also a newer mother, and also spoke of the high cost of child care, rent being over 2700 a month as it's near Santa Clara County California closer to the Coast. It's not likely to be as affordable as Washington State, Idaho, North Dakota or countless other examples, depending where you live.

    Please guys try and think of others before you type, or when you do say something, if it didn't come out as intended consider a subtle revision. Interpersonal Communications is a complicated matter, and we can't hear the tone so we have to perceive it based on word choices; yet also our own emotions at the time. Most on the Volunteer Team, try to focus on the issue not the individual, while also having a bit of empathy for the persons involved whom ever they are in life.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyiWkWcR86I

    Till the season to be Merry, so please some Kindness more often! We've all been thru a rough 2 years where ever we are, so lets all hope for innovations in Medicine, Research, Engineering, and several others that Star Trek tries to inspire with a brighter future for Humanity still ahead. o:)
    Post edited by strathkin on
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  • quinnftw76#3498 quinnftw76 Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    strathkin wrote: »
    He is a member of the Volunteer Community Team as am I, though my role is a bit different. I have on a few occasion worked with DEV's to resolve issues. Still everyone in this thread is a person, be they a developer, or another Cryptic Employee; or just someone who enjoys Star Trek! AmbassadorKael is a Cryptic Employee, he is our Official Community Moderator! As was LaughingTrendy before him. The Volunteer team helps assist where they can, either notifying on Bugs in game, or trying to prevent someone from going too far making personal attacks.

    Thank you for clarifying.

  • thunderfoot#5163 thunderfoot Member Posts: 4,540 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    I only come to the forums once a month now. And when I'm here, I lurk. Stopped commenting or interacting with the people here years ago. Why? Because these forums represent only a very small fraction of the population of the game. And most of these get so caught up in the Argument of the Week, they don't have time to do anything other than play to the crowds or wait to pounce on some unsuspecting newbie so they can score points with their buddies. I don't need the negativity. Nor does anyone else.

    "Constructive Criticisms?" Here goes:

    - Cryptic personnel ought to lose the "Rock Star" attitude. You work for a gaming company. A very small gaming company which has been passed around the industry like Last Year's Fruitcake. 'Nuff said.

    - Personalities and forum regulars around here (myself included) also ought to lose the "Rock Star" attitude.

    - Make the' "Official Forums"' OFFICIAL! Post new information about the game here FIRST!! THEN post it anywhere else you like afterwards. I find it irritating in the extreme to hunt through Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or any of another hundred or so websites to find out about the latest goings on in my favorite MMO. If this place isn't important enough to be first in line for new information, close it down. I understand advertising to attract new players. Makes good business sense. But once you get them here, doesn't it also make good business sense to give them a reason to stay longer? They'll spend more money this way.

    - Restrict Access to Closed Threads which are closed due to Moderation. Regardless of the reason they were moderated. That Guy posts something which is against the rules, the thread gets closed and then continues to get looks because it is still up. Why reward someone in this manner? Why should their ego continue to positively benefit from bad behavior?

    - Lastly, shut down all of the, "That's not real Star Trek!" B.S. I'm thoroughly sick and tired of gatekeepers masquerading as Star Trek fans. It is one of the primary reasons I seldom come here or post anything anymore. Star Trek is a big enough tent now there's room for everyone. Are there things about TNG, VOY, DS9 which I don't like? You betcha! Not going to burden another Star Trek fan with them in public. Not going to pounce on another Star Trek fan who likes them in public. Doing so is disrespectful.

    Doing so and being allowed to get away with it repeatedly is a leadership failure, Ambassadorkael. So now you're gonna act like the new sheriff in town? Any organization will always be a reflection of its leadership.

    While I'm pleased to see at long last somebody wants to clean up the place, I'm also cynical enough after being a part of this for nearly ten years to realize nothing will really change around here. Because the people who can make such a change do not have enough backbone to see the changes through.

    Going back to lurking now.
    Post edited by thunderfoot#5163 on
    A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,971 Community Moderator
    - Lastly, shut down all of the, "That's not real Star Trek!" B.S. I'm thoroughly sick and tired of gatekeepers masquerading as Star Trek fans. It is one of the primary reasons I seldom come here or post anything anymore. Star Trek is a big enough tent now there's room for everyone. Are there things about TNG, VOY, DS9 which I don't like? You betcha! Not going to burden another Star Trek fan with them in public. Not going to pounce on another Star Trek fan who likes them in public. Doing so is disrespectful.

    We on the Mod Team have been working on that already. Its been a standing rule for a couple years now at least because it is a form of Gatekeeping, and used to attack not only stuff they don't like, but people who do like it. The problem is we can't catch EVERY instance of it without people reporting it. We're not all knowing. And its also a fine line between expressing your opinion and Gatekeeping. While I agree that it is disrespectful... again we are only human. We're not Q.
    - Restrict Access to Closed Threads which are closed due to Moderation. Regardless of the reason they were moderated. That Guy posts something which is against the rules, the thread gets closed and then continues to get looks because it is still up. Why reward someone in this manner? Why should their ego continue to positively benefit from bad behavior?

    I may be the rookie, but I don't know if that is possible with this forum software. However threads that are closed aren't always closed for blatant violations or flame wars. Some are just closed because of being necro'd, and some are closed by request of the OP. For this... if it was possible I'd lean more towards on a case by case basis determined by how MUCH moderation was needed. But as this stands now... that would mean you can't see the FCT thread because its closed. And its referenced a lot when it comes to certain subjects. However... since closed threads don't get updated, they tend to sink, which makes them less visible over time due to new threads pushing them down.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    So, this is another thing I was talking about. Sure, you tagged me and (I assume) Christian. The number of notifications I have on these forums is like 200 a day. And there are days where my duties don't let me have time to check the forums. So, there's two things you can do in that situation: You can assume that I am lazy, unmotivated, and that I saw your post but didn't respond; or you can think logically and empathetically, and realize that the person on the other side of the screen is a human, who's working a job and wearing at least sixteen hats.

    To another point you made: if someone's being a jerk to you, don't engage, just report. The mods do their job damn well, here, and don't get nearly the credit they deserve. Let them or me take care of it.

    Why not demand better working conditions? Are you getting paid for every different hat you're wearing? If you're doing 16 different jobs, then your salary should reflect that. Or you know, you could bring up to your bosses that 1 person working 16 roles is absolutely ridiculous, and frankly unfair worker treatment. And potentially illegal if you are not being fairly compensated or given adequate time off.​​

    he posted somewhere he makes just shy of 100k/yr.
    In the Bay Area? I'm impressed by how he's able to live on so little there. 100k/yr near Silicon Valley (not in the Valley, just near) is like 50k/yr around here, or 20k/yr in, say, Omaha. Prices there are ludicrous.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
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