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data on dil/zen exchange (PC)

westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 8,479 Arc User
(originally posted in steam forum)

My Zen-purchase order from Saturday night, finally went through overnight on Wednesday night (at roughly the same time I posted it per the exchange history). So roughly a four day backlog, and considering it was at 1.3 million when I posted, that indicates an average daily movement of somewhere around 325,000 Zen.

(Of course, the backlog is now 2.2 mil, so.... at those numbers, a new buy order might take a whole week.)

In hours.... roughly 13,550 / hour processing, but the backlog grew by an average of 9,375 during the same time (total buy orders averaging between 22,000 and 23,000 per hour).
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on

Comments

  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,501 Arc User
    Interesting, and this is without any big sales.

    When Black Friday / Thanksgiving / Xmas sales hit the backlog could grow to weeks not days.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,501 Arc User
    Silly me, thinking we'd have to wait for dilex-killing sales. 35% off bundles, 50% off Mudd's bundles: https://www.arcgames.com/en/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/11500303-35%-bundle-sale,-50%-mudd's-bundle-sale!

    This might be a trap. Better deals might arrive for Black Friday / Thanksgiving / Xmas / New Year's
  • rascally8abbit#2284 rascally8abbit Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    Well what is odd, is that the Neverwinter Online exchange has been in this "forever" fate for several years. It took me about 2 days to clear 200 zen using dil to get it. I am wondering why this problem has only recently occured. Yes the 25K on many of these grind event is responsible for putting many into too much dil and have gone looking for zen. I still feel this has been allowed as they don't want people to buy zen products with dil so they to find a way to slow it down, same as Neverwinter Of course we all remember missions where you did different things among all the games that I guess with PW. When they took it down they said it needed to be brought up to date and what not, they made on comment about working on it and nothing sense. So this is just another case to close off the flow of in game resource with in store only money purchases
  • ussvaliant2#1952 ussvaliant2 Member Posts: 402 Arc User
    I blame Federation President Okeg. He has caused inflation and disruption in the supply chain and only made it worse with a fly or no fly vaccine mandate for that outbreak of the Tarellian plague, causing a shortage of freighter pilots due to half of them refusing to have it.

    https://i.imgur.com/r6F7yxj.jpeg
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    reyan01 wrote: »

    I do think we need to stop believing that they'll take the Dilex situation seriously. There have been a relentless stream of back-to-back sales and very few attempts to address the Dilex issue, and I'd argue they've disregarded a few opportunities that might have, at the very least, eased the situation a little too.

    And yes, I've heard the excuses about how the sales are scheduled in advance. However, that's a lousy excuse that requires us to believe that their scheduling of sales is some kind of law of nature that can't be altered under any circumstances. No one is asking for them to stop these sales altogether - of course they need to make money. Sadly, there must be middle-ground here somewhere, but it seems to have buried under the queue of high-demand sales.

    The fact is, somewhere within Cryptic is a person (or persons) with the authority to make decisions pertaining to these sales. That person (or persons) allows these sales to go ahead knowing full well that it could not do anything but make the Dilex situation worse. And yes, corporate mouthpieces (who are under contractual obligation to only say good things about the company), such as the CM, might occasionally make passing comment to reassure us that they're aware of the problem and are working on solutions - but I tend to look at what they DO rather than what they say.

    Completely agreed.

    There are some that just take Cryptic at their word, sadly for me I have seen too many accounts of Cryptics actions and words being vastly different. Despite what they say, their actions have shown they have little to no interest in actually fixing the Dilithium exchange. At this point, if Cryptic tells me the sky is blue, I am going outside to confirm.

    As for the data, while it's an admittedly small sample size, it's still very interesting and big thanks to @westmetals for posting the information. Very enlightening.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,100 Arc User
    The problem is: The Cryptic Devs don't deal with the game in the same way players do. They don't need to 'buy' anything; and there grasp on what their so called metrics are 'showing' them is skewed as a result.

    Take Thomas Marrone's 'push' to get common Doffs removed as an input to Fleet Projects; and just replaced with requiring Dilithium. <--- As usual =, somehow he believes removing an option (and another type of sink) will help the Dill Exchange issue; but, no in the long term IT WON'T. All it will do is create another Fleet Dil 'project' that will stop being slotted regularly. I hope whomever is making a final decision on this realizes how BAD an idea this is for the game overall (Hint: Removing player options in an attempt to FORCE them to use something they see as 'more valuable for OTHER things' is ALWAAYS bad - especially when it's a sink for other aspects of the game and would have bad knock on effects to other parts of the game/Fleet Credit economy.)

    We ALREADY saw this when they made the daily Endeavor Reroll Tokens buyable with Dil only and no longer randomly earnable. Did players EN MASSE buy (and continue to buy) Reroll tokens with Dil? No. They now either grit their teeth to do the random endeavor they don't really like - or SKIP doing such Endeavor for that day, and hope for one they like on the next day. If anything this hurts the Endeavor system and you have LESS players engaging in possible group content others are queuing for - meaning longer queue wait times, etc. So yeas, in this one change; not only did it end up doing almost nothing for a issue it was put in for as a small fix - it HURT the overall dynamic of overall group content engagement for the game.

    Most players see Dill (for the most part) as 'free Zen'; and they save it (again for the most part) to convert to Zen. Yes, many DO buy Phoenix Packs to upgrade gear on Double Upgrade point weekends for new characters, or to just finally 'finish' upgrading a main; but those weekends are few and far between.

    Cryptic HAS to be will to put up some more things players feel are really 'worth it' FOR DIL ALONE; and not Zen<--- And that will probably NEVER happen because Dil is easily attainable, but Zen pays the actual bills and earns profit. Hell, I'm certain there are probably still some higher ups in their marketing dept. that wishes the Phoenix Packs would be changed from selling for Dil into selling for Zen.
    ^^^
    Until someone at Cryptic sees some real 'loss leader' value in putting some in game items/traits, etc. players really want for Dilithium only, and not Zen, the situation won't change.

    As for the idea of changing Dil costs across the board to some sort of logarithmic cost progression, or that Cryptic System Designer's idea that "some players will just want to dump Dilithium to 'show off' their in game wealth..."
    ^^^
    yes, you'll have a VERY few who might go for either; but overall, again, it just goes to show how OVERALL CLUELESS Cryptic is WRT to how the majority of the 'free to play' players see Dil <--- And that simply as a way to get 'free Zen' to buy a ship they really want from the Zen Store. If Cryptic messes with that to the point it gets astronomical to exchange Dil for Zen in any fashion, the majority of the current playerbase will simply consider it too much of a grind and may start MOVING ON TO other
    MMOs.

    That's what amazes me about certain Management Level Devs on Cryptic's STO team. They seem to think STO is the only MMO out there and players will just 'live with a change' and keep playing. Invested players will put up with quite a bit; but yeah there comes a point where finally even they will get fed up and quit to find something less grindy/more enjoyable <--- And yes, IMO changing the Dil exchange cost to some sort of logarithmic scale where the more you earn, the less it's worth overall, would KILL interest in doing anything in the game for Dil at some point; and again, the idea that you can simply trade X Dil for X Zen (with a top fixed rate, currently 500 Dil <-> 1 Zen) is what keeps players grinding and putting up with the glitches and the bugs.

    TLDR - You make the carrot too costly to get an occasional bit from and PLAYERS WILL LEAVE (in droves).
    ^^^
    And by the time you guys see that in your metrics; it'll be too late for the game to recover.

    So yeah, marketing has in the end got to be willing to take some loss leader and out some items/traits/things players REALLY want in game but sold via Dil only (and not Zen) to 'balance out' the current Dil<-> Zen exchange situation IF they are unhappy with how it sits now. Making Dill effectively worth way less the more you earn is a sure way to KILL player activity in STO overall.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,635 Arc User
    Solid post crypticarmsman!
    [...]
    Take Thomas Marrone's 'push' to get common Doffs removed as an input to Fleet Projects; and just replaced with requiring Dilithium. <--- As usual =, somehow he believes removing an option (and another type of sink) will help the Dill Exchange issue; but, no in the long term IT WON'T. All it will do is create another Fleet Dil 'project' that will stop being slotted regularly. I hope whomever is making a final decision on this realizes how BAD an idea this is for the game overall (Hint: Removing player options in an attempt to FORCE them to use something they see as 'more valuable for OTHER things' is ALWAAYS bad - especially when it's a sink for other aspects of the game and would have bad knock on effects to other parts of the game/Fleet Credit economy.) [...]

    Worse than that, if that even is effective for fixing the Dil Exchange in the short term, that means those fleets will finish faster and then will no longer need Dil all that much quicker afterwards. It'd just be kicking the can down the road, and end up making the problem worse in the long term, unless they somehow make their magical Dil sink somehow which they haven't had success with yet...
    TLDR - You make the carrot too costly to get an occasional bit from and PLAYERS WILL LEAVE (in droves).
    ^^^
    And by the time you guys see that in your metrics; it'll be too late for the game to recover.

    I worry about this a lot. Blizzard didn't seem to see the writing on the wall for their own issues when it came to WoW, and now there's a decent amount that left for FF14, though over mainly different issues than STO's. What chance does Cryptic have in both noticing and acting on problems before they have something similar happen here? Star Trek is very much their crutch, but that can only take so much weight before it breaks.
  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 1,588 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    All they have to do is a bit of low effort work.

    The easiest fix... would be to take one minor fleet holding every few months and add a Tier 4.
    Update the advanced fleet stuff on offer in them... with Ultra versions that are +1s... and come in MK 10 Blue. (to make sure people have to burn a bit more dil upgrading things)
    Add some Tier 4.... Space/Ground/ship trait unlock or something that is tempting enough to ensure fleets don't skip the holdings.

    No new graphics needed... nothing but some new items with copy bases but bumped states... and some missions added to the fleet.

    Every couple months roll out the next tier 4 bump.
    Start with the oldest first and move through them 5 minor holdings 2-3 months between em could easily stretch that out over a year and half.

    Dill min... Tier 4. Ultra Advanced RCS/armor console.... yep just take the ones that are there and tac on 1.2% crth or 9% crtd. Rep elite warp/sing cores. (take half the rep cores and add a ultra fleet version that can be unlocked assuming you have the rep done and the fleet holding unlocked... save the other half for the spire)

    Embassy... Tier 4. Add more Romulan bridge officers... and crazy idea a Reman for Fed/KDF (which would give people more reason to buy the cross faction cloaking ships for their fed/kdf toons win win win) Ultra treat scaling sci consoles.... add weapon dmg type buffs to them... why not uni consoles are out there for everything anyway take the existing consoles and just add a 8% phaser/disruptor ect buff to em. (again make sure they are blue mk x lol)

    Spire... add the other half of the ultra versions of rep set core... and if cryptic wants bonus points add fleet versions of mission set stuff like a fleet version of the Jem deflector ect. Spire consoles probably don't need a massive buff... but if you want to burn dil..... Add spire dmg consoles with CRTX (crth AND crtd) Who cares about the power creep anymore. Instantly people are upgrading 4-7 consoles per toon.

    I won't go through the rest... but I think you get the idea. Low effort on Cryptics part which is all they will give us at this point. However high rate of dil burn... something new every few months to do for players. Like I said with the embassy even a way to help move some ships that don't really sell. (making a reman ambush extension boff an option at the embassy would sell even if it cost 1m dil)
  • chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,606 Arc User
    Good thread, with some great ideas. This community continues to impress me, even after all these years :)

    I know the idea of interiors has been chewed over ad nauseam and we have been told that we can't have that because each ship would have to be updated in the db individually. But what if they did a poll to see which ships people most wanted interior options for, and then did 2 or 3 per month, with a whopping fee in dil to buy the unlock? There are a few cross-faction ships for which I'd really like to have a full Fed "white light" interior and bridge.

    The other obvious thought is, what if they raised the cap in the Dil Exchange to 550 or 600? I realize that would no nothing to address the lack of demand for Dil, but if Dil was cheaper, might more people buy Phoenix Boxes?

    One minor point, the Special Requisition Pack - 23rd Century tier 6 ship was removed from the T6 Phoenix ship choice thingie quite recently, like in the last few months, and the Ambassador was added. So it's not entirely true that there have been no changes.
  • aftulusaftulus Member Posts: 668 Arc User
    edited October 2021
    I have a feeling half of their development is lagged. If you look at the ideas, I keep seeing stuff I recommended months ago or more. It seems like they are just taking a long time doing stuff. With the graphics/dx11 overhaul we may be seeing small temp solutions while they are working on it. Hopefully we will see bigger changes after that is done. I'm wondering if that will be the case at least.

    I hope they don't change the cap unless there is a big reason to do so. Changing other parts of the game to fully utilize the existing one would be better. Long term ability for it to dynamically change the full length of the exchange rate would be nice. A real economy, or closer to it, would be nice. There is lots of room to make more complex things to allow that on some level. Let alone economies in parts of that game it should exist. Like in different cultures.(ferengie, cardasian, anything not fed.)

    I had a trade concept that went into more depth of the ship and could utilize the idea of using actual limits in the warp core to produce things. We have lack of representation of the base cause of much of how the ships work. There are ways to get that in lore logically like running into a sun or gas clouds and scooping to refil the warp core with certain things. Or buying it depending on where youare. The lack of money in the fed could have been interesting in this game if you put it up against the reality of a universe that does use money. It could have also change the realities of different species as they could come from a place like the klingons where you did need to use money. Basically free upgrades for fed, added with a reality of where those resources come from potentially(sort of like fleet resources now but more in depth to territory) and pay upgrades/ heals for other people. Not sure why klingons get free upgrades/heals for ships as is in the current bare minimum mechanics. You would think that would fit the hardcore play klingons are supposed to be. Unless I'm missing something about their lore.

    Either way, economy mechanics can be used to help fix dil in the long run. Depending on how the game makes them interrelate if the game gained more depth. It's part of the economy as the current game stands at least and matters a little. In the long run what dil and lobi and other things represent could be given more depth to do wonders for the game and ultimately the dil/zen problem. It could dynamically change how it works.

    Might have an exploration/realistic game world that comes down to doing more than grinding dailies.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    If they raised the cap then most likely all that would happen would be that it would cap out again in a few hours, just like it did when they raised the cap in Neverwinter. Like the statistics the OP figured out show, the pressure against the cap is too high for it to stabilize before hitting the cap again.
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