to be fair, the Netflix version of Sabrina is actually true to the comics, which were very dark. The comedy version from the 90's was a complete re-imagining because it had to be appropriate for kids, which the original source material was not.
The earlier live TV series was probably based more on the early part of the comics, and the cartoon Sabrina that was part of The Archie Comedy Hour in the late 1960s. I read some of the early Sabrina comics and while they had a dryer, somewhat darker sense of humor compared to the Archie line and had a few nasty curses in the far past of the setting it was not particularly dark back in the silver age of comics.
The current heavy darkness probably didn't start until the iron or rust age of comics in the 1990s or early 2000s. In the silver age they technically could not have run anything dark without it carrying a horror genre seal according to the industry code, which it didn't at the time, or run without any code seal at all like Spiderman was starting to do (and unlike Spiderman, Sabrina carried the regular seal).
to be fair, the Netflix version of Sabrina is actually true to the comics, which were very dark. The comedy version from the 90's was a complete re-imagining because it had to be appropriate for kids, which the original source material was not.
I pined for the...not even necessarily comedy, but unique finger pointing. Chilling was too Harry Potter and a bit like how Star Trek used to be the only show to use beams, Sabrina was the only one to use finger magic...that made both different and neither are going on now. #wasteful
The word you're looking for is Somatic, and more than Sabrina used it - Charmed did too, and I'm sure tons of other magic-based shows and movies did as well.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The people who call it "woke" say that because they feel Burnham is a "Mary Sue", or because they don't like how prominent characters like Stamets, Dr Culber, Adira, and Gray are and feel that that "isn't Trek" even though Star Trek has ALWAYS celebrated diversity since the very beginning.
I cannot speak for everyone, however for me personally this statement is not only ignorant, it is utterly and completely wrong and could not be farther from the truth. I have absolutely no issue with women, women of color or LGBTQ characters on the show. I welcome them. I completely agree those who do take issue with these things are ignorant and quite frankly do not understand the history of Star Trek.
What I do take offense to is how the worst (not best) parts of these modern "woke" agendas are being integrated into Star Trek to make it more grimdark and pervert the sense of optimism and hope for a better future into something dark and dismal.
I watched a video recently that gave a few good examples of this. Compare and contrast how Reg Barclay was treated by the crew on TNG versus how Edward was treated in the short Trek "The Trouble with Edward". Despite his awkwardness, Picard encouraged his crew to get to know Barclay, find a way to help him make a positive contribution and work with him. This ultimately worked and the crew were able to bring out the best in Barclay who became one of the most valued crew members. Contrast this with how the character of Edward Larkin was treated by his Captain. He was basically shown to be useless, irredeemable and berated. He is not worth the effort and it is easier to just get rid of him than to work with him. This is a more modern take in that one character has to be torn down to elevate another.
Another is contrasting how artificial life was treated and respected in episodes like TNG in "Measure of a Man" and Voyager "Author, Author". Contrast this with how poorly androids/synths are treated in Picard. You could also look at how Seven of Nine went from wanting to preserve and protect life to mindlessly blowing people away on Picard.
These changes are not improvements nor are they Star Trek to me personally. This is not something that is unique to Star Trek either. Many of films and television programs today are affected by this.
It is truly unfortunate to see in my opinion. You are welcome to disagree.
absolutely right. I'm not sure why entertainment as a whole has gotten so freaking dark. y'all remember Sabrina the teenage witch? fun comedy.. the netflix remake is one of the darkest shows I have ever watched. just like the cw show based on archie comics.. pretty much everything from the 60s to the 80s and even 90s being remakes is some dark mirror version. creeps me out, really.
Either dark or a silly spoof. Examples of the latter are Charlie's Angels, The Green Hornet movies and others (the Charlies Angels reboot series apparently was no gem either from what I heard about it), and the reboot of Charmed while not an intentional spoof still came across as one (like instead of the original's starting buildup where they discovered what they were over several episodes, in the new one they get tied to chairs and get everything dropped in their laps in exposition by their whitelighter near the start of the pilot, the ultimate tell-don't-show gaffe).
Hollywood does not seem to want to put any thought or substance in the shows nowadays, it is almost all for the stunts, the shocks, the dark snark, or the laughs. A lot of the remake shows even feel like the only reason they are made is to sneer at the originals instead of striving to be good shows in of themselves.
The Land of the Lost movie was made to be a comedy.
The kid's show may not have been high entertainment but it was an adventure show, but when Hollywood decided to revisit it they couldn't be bothered to try and write even a mediocre adventure.
And then there were the old "Jim Carrey as Steve Austin in a Six-Million Dollar Man movie" rumors.
They are happy to use the name of the old show to try and attract attention, but they seemingly have no respect for the old shows or the fans.
to be fair, the Netflix version of Sabrina is actually true to the comics, which were very dark. The comedy version from the 90's was a complete re-imagining because it had to be appropriate for kids, which the original source material was not.
I pined for the...not even necessarily comedy, but unique finger pointing. Chilling was too Harry Potter and a bit like how Star Trek used to be the only show to use beams, Sabrina was the only one to use finger magic...that made both different and neither are going on now. #wasteful
pretty sure Samantha's mom did too in Bewitched. Sam did the nose thing but everyone else did the finger swirl thing
"Blood and Fire" should have been made and not just as a fan fiction episode.
Seven should have been allowed to be a TRIBBLE on Voyager, but it was Rick Berman who blocked everything at every turn, right?
And "The Outcast" would have been terrific and ICONIC...if only they hadn't cast so clearly a woman in the role. They could have cast an androgynous man.
Good examples of several ways Trek was not as progressive as everyone thinks with their rose colored glasses. Not everyone remembers "Turnabout Intruder" either (cannot say I blame them on that) where we find women cannot be starship captains either.
Actually, Janice Lester never said women cannot be starship captains, what she said was that they cannot be Starship captains. Roddenberry had a funny routine he would tell at conventions about the idiotic censoring and demands from the network and this gaff was one of the things that was often in it.
The significance of that is NBC's dogged resistance to naval ship classifications because of the anti-war movements of the time, they refused to allow Roddenberry to call the Enterprise a battleship because it sounded "too military" (Roddenberry barely got them to accept the word cruiser) so they avoided calling it by any classification for the most part and usually just referred to it as a "starship" in the first two seasons.
In the third season the line producer got the bright idea of taking the ship dedication plaque literally as a way to appease the network and formally call the heavy capital ships "Starship" with a capital "S" as apposed to lesser starships with a small "s", which if course is impossible to differentiate in spoken dialog.
In the original script Roddenberry wrote "Women are not allowed in your world of heavy cruiser captains" (or words to that effect) and in the usual script processing someone saw that and following Freiberger's guidelines changed "heavy cruiser" to "Starship" when making the shooting copies, and Roddenberry did not find out about it until after the scene was filmed and the budget just was not there to reshoot it for one line of dialog.
His intention when writing the story was that there was a clique of admirals who were giving all the choice ships to their (inevitably male) protégés and that for a few decades women were getting unofficially shunted off into commanding support ships, destroyers, and other less prestigious ship types.
It was an allegory to the days of tall ships, where in peacetime navies would sometimes slip into a sort of "yacht club" clique mentality, and had they gone to a fourth season (which seemed the most likely happening at the time the script was written) the incident would have been the straw that broke the camel's back and caused Starfleet to clean up its act.
Like a lot of things, Roddenberry wrote the story out of frustration with the network censorship that would not allow showing female captains or high ranking officers outside of medical (for instance Lt. Cmdr. Ann Mulhall was the highest ranked female officer shown after the first pilot and she only squeaked by the censors since she was a doctor instead of a line officer like Number One, and she was a guest star, not regular cast).
Of course, Lester was a certifiable nutcase so anything she said could be written off as delusional anyway.
Of course, Lester was a certifiable nutcase so anything she said could be written off as delusional anyway.
One of my main points when discussing the episode. This was someone whose solution to perceived prejudice was to use an ancient alien device to pull a Freaky Friday on an old adversary - I have the feeling that her psych-test results showed that it would be a disaster to let her in particular within a parsec of the center seat, and she decided it must be because she was a girl. Kirk didn't directly gainsay her because it would have been dangerous, and then later just cruel and pointless.
But I definitely take every word out of her mouth in that episode with a grain of salt large enough to attract Nancy Crater.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Actually, Janice Lester never said women cannot be starship captains, what she said was that they cannot be Starship captains.
I saw the episode thanks. Like I said, it was not always as progressive as people make it out to be. You can also add Pike saying how he could not get used to having a woman on the bridge too.
So the Federation has a few little knots of temporary backsliding like the good ol' boy clique and their misplaced chivalry in the admiralty's ship assigning group, what does that have to do with how the progressive the whole series was? That episode was written as an analogy to point out the "June Cleaver" double standard when it came to freedom of the sexes and was quite radical for 1960s Hollywood, though the effect was rather substantially damaged by the changed line causing confusion.
As for Pikes comment, that was a little humorous dig at Hollywood for being behind the times, and the humor of it was the fact that he said it when his first officer was a woman, and sitting about two feet from him on the bridge giving him the eyebrow for it (at which point he dug himself deeper trying to explain).
In a practical writing sense it was a way of cluing the audience in to the various personalities and prime the red-herring triangle situation that was coming up in the next act or so.
So the Federation has a few little knots of temporary backsliding like the good ol' boy clique and their misplaced chivalry in the admiralty's ship assigning group, what does that have to do with how the progressive the whole series was? That episode was written as an analogy to point out the "June Cleaver" double standard when it came to freedom of the sexes and was quite radical for 1960s Hollywood, though the effect was rather substantially damaged by the changed line causing confusion.
As I said, Trek was not always as progressive as some make it out to be.
The various series did vary a bit, TOS pushed the envelope the hardest despite the censorship and DSC probably the least since it is mainly passively riding the current Hollywood progressive wave while focusing on action instead of the soft sciences and the rest fall in-between.
And Turnabout Intruder served two purposes, the main one was to examine the real-world inequality issue (which was explosive at the time) allegorically, and the second was to show that the Federation was not the perfect utopia some were starting to call it and flaws would crop up from time to time, and the episode did a fairly decent job of both.
To be fair, there was gruesome violence in older Trek too. I remember Voyager episodes where the Borg Queen was having a Borg drone's head being taken apart.
Seeing a part of Seven's head including a separated eye being analysed by Kim and Chakotay (in that one episode where they went back in time to prevent a crash after using the slipstream drive) wasn't such a pleasant thing to see either when I was young.
Those are quite a bit different than Icheb's (stupid) bloody torture/death and Agnes outright murdering Maddox in Picard.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Yeah TNG NEVER did 'violent/gruesome' death scenes...oh, wait...
Oh wait.... one was a bad guy who had been taken over and corrupted by aliens looking to destroy the Federation. The other was a hero character who was strapped down, tortured and mutilated while screaming in agony. Surely you can see and understand the difference.
The 'difference' was Icheb's death was a MAJOR reason why 7 of 9 gave up on being part of/working within the policies of the Federation. It was done to give/show a main reason WHY she had changed her beliefs. It wasn't done just for the 'gore factor' (which honestly can't be said about Remick's death scene in TNG S! - "Conspiracy". One was done simply for the gore/shock factor and it WASAN'T the death scene in "Picard".
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Yeah TNG NEVER did 'violent/gruesome' death scenes...oh, wait...
Oh wait.... one was a bad guy who had been taken over and corrupted by aliens looking to destroy the Federation. The other was a hero character who was strapped down, tortured and mutilated while screaming in agony. Surely you can see and understand the difference.
The 'difference' was Icheb's death was a MAJOR reason why 7 of 9 gave up on being part of/working within the policies of the Federation. It was done to give/show a main reason WHY she had changed her beliefs. It wasn't done just for the 'gore factor' (which honestly can't be said about Remick's death scene in TNG S! - "Conspiracy". One was done simply for the gore/shock factor and it WASAN'T the death scene in "Picard".
Sure, it was the motivator for the Wolverine mode Seven but it was done in a clumsy ham-handed and easy-button-for-the-writers way. Pretty much typical melodrama fare when they could have used something a bit more sophisticated.
Conspiracy was meant as a wakeup after nearly a full season of ultra-bland space procedurals and they needed something with an extreme bang at that point to show the viewers that they heard the complaints about the unusual sleep inducing formula and were about to spice things up a bit (or at least by Berman's standards anyway).
It was rather graphic for the time but it worked and people hung in long enough for the writers to work out how to do a space procedural (which was a completely new concept for Hollywood) without putting the viewers to sleep, even when that took longer than it should since every first season writer walked out on the show by the end of the first season (due to Leonard Maizlish making the writer's environment extremely toxic, but that is a subject for another thread) so they had to bring them up to speed with no one to show them the ropes.
I was only thinking earlier...imagine if the Borg assimilated a Salt Monster. With it's psi-abilities? Ooh, that would have made for a great drone.
#missesminetrap
The Ultramatrix Zero episodes showed that it would not be possible. The collective itself apparently cannot make use of potential or active psi abilities present before they became drones. The queen does not understand psionics and considers the abilitys a "harmful mutation", going so far as to destroy a considerable number of ships to stamp it out once she discovered that ultamatrix zero existed.
Comments
The earlier live TV series was probably based more on the early part of the comics, and the cartoon Sabrina that was part of The Archie Comedy Hour in the late 1960s. I read some of the early Sabrina comics and while they had a dryer, somewhat darker sense of humor compared to the Archie line and had a few nasty curses in the far past of the setting it was not particularly dark back in the silver age of comics.
The current heavy darkness probably didn't start until the iron or rust age of comics in the 1990s or early 2000s. In the silver age they technically could not have run anything dark without it carrying a horror genre seal according to the industry code, which it didn't at the time, or run without any code seal at all like Spiderman was starting to do (and unlike Spiderman, Sabrina carried the regular seal).
I pined for the...not even necessarily comedy, but unique finger pointing. Chilling was too Harry Potter and a bit like how Star Trek used to be the only show to use beams, Sabrina was the only one to use finger magic...that made both different and neither are going on now. #wasteful
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
The Land of the Lost movie was made to be a comedy.
The kid's show may not have been high entertainment but it was an adventure show, but when Hollywood decided to revisit it they couldn't be bothered to try and write even a mediocre adventure.
And then there were the old "Jim Carrey as Steve Austin in a Six-Million Dollar Man movie" rumors.
They are happy to use the name of the old show to try and attract attention, but they seemingly have no respect for the old shows or the fans.
pretty sure Samantha's mom did too in Bewitched. Sam did the nose thing but everyone else did the finger swirl thing
Actually, Janice Lester never said women cannot be starship captains, what she said was that they cannot be Starship captains. Roddenberry had a funny routine he would tell at conventions about the idiotic censoring and demands from the network and this gaff was one of the things that was often in it.
The significance of that is NBC's dogged resistance to naval ship classifications because of the anti-war movements of the time, they refused to allow Roddenberry to call the Enterprise a battleship because it sounded "too military" (Roddenberry barely got them to accept the word cruiser) so they avoided calling it by any classification for the most part and usually just referred to it as a "starship" in the first two seasons.
In the third season the line producer got the bright idea of taking the ship dedication plaque literally as a way to appease the network and formally call the heavy capital ships "Starship" with a capital "S" as apposed to lesser starships with a small "s", which if course is impossible to differentiate in spoken dialog.
In the original script Roddenberry wrote "Women are not allowed in your world of heavy cruiser captains" (or words to that effect) and in the usual script processing someone saw that and following Freiberger's guidelines changed "heavy cruiser" to "Starship" when making the shooting copies, and Roddenberry did not find out about it until after the scene was filmed and the budget just was not there to reshoot it for one line of dialog.
His intention when writing the story was that there was a clique of admirals who were giving all the choice ships to their (inevitably male) protégés and that for a few decades women were getting unofficially shunted off into commanding support ships, destroyers, and other less prestigious ship types.
It was an allegory to the days of tall ships, where in peacetime navies would sometimes slip into a sort of "yacht club" clique mentality, and had they gone to a fourth season (which seemed the most likely happening at the time the script was written) the incident would have been the straw that broke the camel's back and caused Starfleet to clean up its act.
Like a lot of things, Roddenberry wrote the story out of frustration with the network censorship that would not allow showing female captains or high ranking officers outside of medical (for instance Lt. Cmdr. Ann Mulhall was the highest ranked female officer shown after the first pilot and she only squeaked by the censors since she was a doctor instead of a line officer like Number One, and she was a guest star, not regular cast).
Of course, Lester was a certifiable nutcase so anything she said could be written off as delusional anyway.
But I definitely take every word out of her mouth in that episode with a grain of salt large enough to attract Nancy Crater.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
So the Federation has a few little knots of temporary backsliding like the good ol' boy clique and their misplaced chivalry in the admiralty's ship assigning group, what does that have to do with how the progressive the whole series was? That episode was written as an analogy to point out the "June Cleaver" double standard when it came to freedom of the sexes and was quite radical for 1960s Hollywood, though the effect was rather substantially damaged by the changed line causing confusion.
As for Pikes comment, that was a little humorous dig at Hollywood for being behind the times, and the humor of it was the fact that he said it when his first officer was a woman, and sitting about two feet from him on the bridge giving him the eyebrow for it (at which point he dug himself deeper trying to explain).
In a practical writing sense it was a way of cluing the audience in to the various personalities and prime the red-herring triangle situation that was coming up in the next act or so.
The various series did vary a bit, TOS pushed the envelope the hardest despite the censorship and DSC probably the least since it is mainly passively riding the current Hollywood progressive wave while focusing on action instead of the soft sciences and the rest fall in-between.
And Turnabout Intruder served two purposes, the main one was to examine the real-world inequality issue (which was explosive at the time) allegorically, and the second was to show that the Federation was not the perfect utopia some were starting to call it and flaws would crop up from time to time, and the episode did a fairly decent job of both.
Yeah TNG NEVER did 'violent/gruesome' death scenes...oh, wait...
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
The 'difference' was Icheb's death was a MAJOR reason why 7 of 9 gave up on being part of/working within the policies of the Federation. It was done to give/show a main reason WHY she had changed her beliefs. It wasn't done just for the 'gore factor' (which honestly can't be said about Remick's death scene in TNG S! - "Conspiracy". One was done simply for the gore/shock factor and it WASAN'T the death scene in "Picard".
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Sure, it was the motivator for the Wolverine mode Seven but it was done in a clumsy ham-handed and easy-button-for-the-writers way. Pretty much typical melodrama fare when they could have used something a bit more sophisticated.
Conspiracy was meant as a wakeup after nearly a full season of ultra-bland space procedurals and they needed something with an extreme bang at that point to show the viewers that they heard the complaints about the unusual sleep inducing formula and were about to spice things up a bit (or at least by Berman's standards anyway).
It was rather graphic for the time but it worked and people hung in long enough for the writers to work out how to do a space procedural (which was a completely new concept for Hollywood) without putting the viewers to sleep, even when that took longer than it should since every first season writer walked out on the show by the end of the first season (due to Leonard Maizlish making the writer's environment extremely toxic, but that is a subject for another thread) so they had to bring them up to speed with no one to show them the ropes.
I was only thinking earlier...imagine if the Borg assimilated a Salt Monster. With it's psi-abilities? Ooh, that would have made for a great drone.
#missesminetrap
The Ultramatrix Zero episodes showed that it would not be possible. The collective itself apparently cannot make use of potential or active psi abilities present before they became drones. The queen does not understand psionics and considers the abilitys a "harmful mutation", going so far as to destroy a considerable number of ships to stamp it out once she discovered that ultamatrix zero existed.