So perhaps the more correct statement would be that the engine can't do it as it is set up for STO. In which case... the original statement is true... from a certain point of view.
So perhaps the more correct statement would be that the engine can't do it as it is set up for STO. In which case... the original statement is true... from a certain point of view.
We definitely have a misunderstanding here. These 3 things are completely different issues:
1: ability to do cell shading (globally)
2: ability to do selective cell shading (meaning: on some items and not others, at the same time)
3: whether the cell shading would actually look good/as intended
Anyone saying STO's engine cannot do #1 is simply wrong, period. However, it probably cannot do #2. And number 3 is not actually an "engine" issue, but a lighting and environmental issue. Because STO was not designed to have a cell shaded appearance, they did not design it's lighting/environment to support that look. They could certainly turn cell shading on if they wanted to, but on certain maps/environments it probably wouldn't look good(subjective) due to lighting. It's also possible that it would look better in lighting 1.0 than it would in lighting 2.0.
So perhaps the more correct statement would be that the engine can't do it as it is set up for STO. In which case... the original statement is true... from a certain point of view.
We definitely have a misunderstanding here. These 3 things are completely different issues:
1: ability to do cell shading (globally)
2: ability to do selective cell shading (meaning: on some items and not others, at the same time)
3: whether the cell shading would actually look good/as intended
Anyone saying STO's engine cannot do #1 is simply wrong, period. However, it probably cannot do #2. And number 3 is not actually an "engine" issue, but a lighting and environmental issue. Because STO was not designed to have a cell shaded appearance, they did not design it's lighting/environment to support that look. They could certainly turn cell shading on if they wanted to, but on certain maps/environments it probably wouldn't look good(subjective) due to lighting. It's also possible that it would look better in lighting 1.0 than it would in lighting 2.0.
Have you ever played Champions Online? If you have it installed and fire it up and take a very close look at it and you will see that it is not really cell shading even with the black outline running, it is standard soft shading with some subsurface tricks and the shadows turned down along with bright primary colors instead of more muted realistic ones. It looks nothing like what you see on Lower Decks and is the best the engine can do at intentionally simulating a drawn comic.
And if you listen to the livestream they segue between the question of putting the game on another engine and setting up a pseudo-cell-shaded system in the game, and the answer for both is the same since as they mention both take about the same tremendous amount of effort.
That said, we kind of need to take a reality check when it comes to just how cell-shaded Lower Decks actually is. I mean, just look at a pic of the show:
It's not like there are super thick lines on the edges of the characters. It's honestly not much different than Champions Online:
The main difference is the actual shapes of the characters. Lower Decks characters are drawn with cartoonish proportions, which has nothing to do with whether they are cell-shaded or not.
It's a completely different art style than STO and I can understand the delimma the devs are facing. It's less about cell-shading and more about how a screen accurate Lower Decks character would look completely out of place in STO's game world even if they had absolutely no cel-shading.
That said, we kind of need to take a reality check when it comes to just how cell-shaded Lower Decks actually is. I mean, just look at a pic of the show:
It's not like there are super thick lines on the edges of the characters. It's honestly not much different than Champions Online:
The main difference is the actual shapes of the characters. Lower Decks characters are drawn with cartoonish proportions, which has nothing to do with whether they are cell-shaded or not.
It's a completely different art style than STO and I can understand the delimma the devs are facing. It's less about cell-shading and more about how a screen accurate Lower Decks character would look completely out of place in STO's game world even if they had absolutely no cel-shading.
The image of Champions Online isn't using cell shading either. Cell shading refers to something very specific. Breath of the Wild uses cell shading. That's outlining, same as what you see in Borderlands, for example. The engine *can* do outlining (obviously, Champions is using it). Outlining *is* necessary to properly recreate the style of Lower Decks, but it's only one part of it. In fact, the image Lower Decks image isn't using cell shading either. That's just basic flat shading.
You're right. But getting to the heart of translating Lower Decks to STO I think the greater issue is what I mentioned above about the actual shapes and proportions of the characters themselves. It's a completely different art style, with completely different shaped characters. If you plopped Boimler into STO and he had the same shape and proportions as he does on the show he would be extremely out of place regardless of whether he was cell shaded or not.
That said, it seems only the characters really have this issue. The ships seem pretty normally shaped in comparison to the live action Trek series.
I hope they don't mess up the lower decks uniforms, there's different versions, like there's the normal LD Uniforms, Mariner's uniform variant, where it's sleeves are rolled up, and the Lab Coat variant wore by Doctor T'Ana the Caitian, as well as Rutherford's implant, plus I hope we get Fed Orions, which is a thing in canon, Tendi may not have been the first to join Starfleet but she is the most memorable of the bunch.
> @westmetals said: > One of the Romulan BOFFs comes with a lab coat, but it's not available as a costume part; you end up having to remove it if you edit that BOFF, and cannot put it on anyone else.
Wow thats interesting. If someone has that boff please share a pic.
That said, we kind of need to take a reality check when it comes to just how cell-shaded Lower Decks actually is. I mean, just look at a pic of the show:
It's not like there are super thick lines on the edges of the characters. It's honestly not much different than Champions Online:
The main difference is the actual shapes of the characters. Lower Decks characters are drawn with cartoonish proportions, which has nothing to do with whether they are cell-shaded or not.
It's a completely different art style than STO and I can understand the delimma the devs are facing. It's less about cell-shading and more about how a screen accurate Lower Decks character would look completely out of place in STO's game world even if they had absolutely no cel-shading.
The image of Champions Online isn't using cell shading either. Cell shading refers to something very specific. Breath of the Wild uses cell shading. That's outlining, same as what you see in Borderlands, for example. The engine *can* do outlining (obviously, Champions is using it). Outlining *is* necessary to properly recreate the style of Lower Decks, but it's only one part of it. In fact, the image Lower Decks image isn't using cell shading either. That's just basic flat shading.
You're right. But getting to the heart of translating Lower Decks to STO I think the greater issue is what I mentioned above about the actual shapes and proportions of the characters themselves. It's a completely different art style, with completely different shaped characters. If you plopped Boimler into STO and he had the same shape and proportions as he does on the show he would be extremely out of place regardless of whether he was cell shaded or not.
That said, it seems only the characters really have this issue. The ships seem pretty normally shaped in comparison to the live action Trek series.
The largest issue would not be the textures but rather how the lighting works in the STO engine, as far as I know the Engine cannot change the lighting based on character or object being lit so you'd have Lower Decks characters with realistic lighting or all STO characters with a flat LD style character. Even if the textures and models we 100% LD contents still wouldn't look like in the show since STO uses more realistic lighting rig.
The largest issue would not be the textures but rather how the lighting works in the STO engine, as far as I know the Engine cannot change the lighting based on character or object being lit so you'd have Lower Decks characters with realistic lighting or all STO characters with a flat LD style character. Even if the textures and models we 100% LD contents still wouldn't look like in the show since STO uses more realistic lighting rig.
We are talking about 2 completely different things now. What I am saying is that the actual shapes and proportions of the Lower Decks characters are cartoonish and do not fit in STO's game world (and yes, before anyone says it I have seen some of the alien stuff people create, but still). Boimler or Mariner are supposedly human, but if you put them next to a human in game they would look like an alien because of their cartoonish shape and proportions. That is a completely separate issue from cell shading or lighting or any texture related issue.
To celebrate the premier of season 2 of Lower Decks this week (since the Devs apprently aren't ) we have had some fun playing around with filters (outside the game in a photo program) to create a blend between STO's graphics and a somewhat animated look.
Some of these pics are fairly large so we have made a few different albums:
> @keepcalmchiveon said:
> agree. but if i recall there is a lab coat available somewhere...not sure where though.
I have yet to see one in game, but would definitely be interested in seeing it if it exists. If someone can grab a screen please share.
I think the player-available "lab coat" might be the white (or light colored anyway I forget the exact colors available) variant of one of the winter event "long coats". I have a dark one and aside from the color it looks a bit like a lab coat though it would look more like one if there was a mat finish option.
To celebrate the premier of season 2 of Lower Decks this week (since the Devs apprently aren't ) we have had some fun playing around with filters (outside the game in a photo program) to create a blend between STO's graphics and a somewhat animated look.
Some of these pics are fairly large so we have made a few different albums:
However, if any still wish to use the old files that were made using the Academy/Odyssey uniforms, these are still in the google drive directory, inside a folder named "alternate uniforms".
For anyone interested you can download these saved costume files (if you play on PC) as well as see pictures of the slider settings here. Those who play on console can use the slider settings to manually re-create these characters.
Also, as with most of our work these characters were created using the "alien" species because it offers more flexibility with facial features, so the saved files can only be loaded into alien species characters or boffs. However if you would like to convert the files to other species you can do so with the STO Academy Tool, although some level of customization will be lost.
Comments
Yes, it's either on or off. But that's not the point in dispute. Going back a few posts this was the incorrect statement:
A few people responded afterwards pointing out that was not true. The engine absolutely can do cell shading.
As far as having it on for certain missions/characters/ships and not others, I agree that is probably not something currently possible.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
We definitely have a misunderstanding here. These 3 things are completely different issues:
1: ability to do cell shading (globally)
2: ability to do selective cell shading (meaning: on some items and not others, at the same time)
3: whether the cell shading would actually look good/as intended
Anyone saying STO's engine cannot do #1 is simply wrong, period. However, it probably cannot do #2. And number 3 is not actually an "engine" issue, but a lighting and environmental issue. Because STO was not designed to have a cell shaded appearance, they did not design it's lighting/environment to support that look. They could certainly turn cell shading on if they wanted to, but on certain maps/environments it probably wouldn't look good(subjective) due to lighting. It's also possible that it would look better in lighting 1.0 than it would in lighting 2.0.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Have you ever played Champions Online? If you have it installed and fire it up and take a very close look at it and you will see that it is not really cell shading even with the black outline running, it is standard soft shading with some subsurface tricks and the shadows turned down along with bright primary colors instead of more muted realistic ones. It looks nothing like what you see on Lower Decks and is the best the engine can do at intentionally simulating a drawn comic.
And if you listen to the livestream they segue between the question of putting the game on another engine and setting up a pseudo-cell-shaded system in the game, and the answer for both is the same since as they mention both take about the same tremendous amount of effort.
Only since beta. So no, not that long.
That said, we kind of need to take a reality check when it comes to just how cell-shaded Lower Decks actually is. I mean, just look at a pic of the show:
It's not like there are super thick lines on the edges of the characters. It's honestly not much different than Champions Online:
The main difference is the actual shapes of the characters. Lower Decks characters are drawn with cartoonish proportions, which has nothing to do with whether they are cell-shaded or not.
It's a completely different art style than STO and I can understand the delimma the devs are facing. It's less about cell-shading and more about how a screen accurate Lower Decks character would look completely out of place in STO's game world even if they had absolutely no cel-shading.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
You're right. But getting to the heart of translating Lower Decks to STO I think the greater issue is what I mentioned above about the actual shapes and proportions of the characters themselves. It's a completely different art style, with completely different shaped characters. If you plopped Boimler into STO and he had the same shape and proportions as he does on the show he would be extremely out of place regardless of whether he was cell shaded or not.
That said, it seems only the characters really have this issue. The ships seem pretty normally shaped in comparison to the live action Trek series.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
> agree. but if i recall there is a lab coat available somewhere...not sure where though.
I have yet to see one in game, but would definitely be interested in seeing it if it exists. If someone can grab a screen please share.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
> One of the Romulan BOFFs comes with a lab coat, but it's not available as a costume part; you end up having to remove it if you edit that BOFF, and cannot put it on anyone else.
Wow thats interesting. If someone has that boff please share a pic.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
It's definitely not the long coat like Crusher wears in TNG, but it would still be nice to have it as an option
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
And I always tell Satra to give me her coat too. She never gives me her coat.
We are talking about 2 completely different things now. What I am saying is that the actual shapes and proportions of the Lower Decks characters are cartoonish and do not fit in STO's game world (and yes, before anyone says it I have seen some of the alien stuff people create, but still). Boimler or Mariner are supposedly human, but if you put them next to a human in game they would look like an alien because of their cartoonish shape and proportions. That is a completely separate issue from cell shading or lighting or any texture related issue.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Some of these pics are fairly large so we have made a few different albums:
(1) the ship and crew (filtered):
https://imgur.com/a/K1vBhYD
(2) character portraits (filtered):
https://imgur.com/a/XjdpmxW
(3) beauty shots of the ship (UNfiltered):
https://imgur.com/a/DFCrD4G
(4) crew away mission (UNfiltered):
https://imgur.com/a/imPt3uQ
(5) character portraits(UNfiltered):
https://imgur.com/a/v9me4Hl
Live Long and Prosper!
I think the player-available "lab coat" might be the white (or light colored anyway I forget the exact colors available) variant of one of the winter event "long coats". I have a dark one and aside from the color it looks a bit like a lab coat though it would look more like one if there was a mat finish option.
Really amazing work! I am strongly considering buying the Clarke and starting a new character to use your costumes and make a full lower decks crew!
https://imgur.com/a/l6F9JCi
However, if any still wish to use the old files that were made using the Academy/Odyssey uniforms, these are still in the google drive directory, inside a folder named "alternate uniforms".
For anyone interested you can download these saved costume files (if you play on PC) as well as see pictures of the slider settings here. Those who play on console can use the slider settings to manually re-create these characters.
Also, as with most of our work these characters were created using the "alien" species because it offers more flexibility with facial features, so the saved files can only be loaded into alien species characters or boffs. However if you would like to convert the files to other species you can do so with the STO Academy Tool, although some level of customization will be lost.
Thanks for your feedback and we hope you enjoy
Enjoy