She certainly did try to crack the moon open...just because the weapon wasn't strong enough to actually do that doesn't mean she didn't have clear intentions of doing so, being she literally said as much.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Where to start with where you are wrong...
First - Did they not say something about not seeing Klingons for like 100 years prior at the very start of the show? I don't see a lot of cold war there compared to what happens later.
I didn't say she didn't last - I said suggested she didn't and that if she did she was a hypocrite for going back on everything she pretended to believe in wanting peace with the Feds. If she was in power she did a crappy job since they were in an actual shooting war prior to the Organians stopping them and I doubt the Federation would have started it.
D7 was in Enterprise as I recall...was intended to be a different ship but they used the D7 - on screen canon as I recall. As I said, it was originally to be a D5, a earlier model of the same ship, but they decided in the end to use the D7 because the other ship didn't fit their vision or something like that. So the D7 is on screen prior to Discovery, therefore if you insist that it was entirely invented by her instead of a new version of it or something then you are admitting that Disco is a retcon of the series - yes?
I don't think there's a "book of L'rell" or any great epics about her, she's a mediocre wannabe who was put in power by the Federation to stop the war. She then blackmailed the Klingon houses to her bidding. So where would they get all the detailed memories to feed into her.
Definitely sounds memorable. Besides, what you are saying is that the current chancellor of the Empire is a programmed soulless clone who was just programmed by the monks of Boreth...so really the monks are the ones in charge since they programmed her right?
J'ula DID try to crack open the moon - she *SAYS* that she will crack open the moon - I accept you may have forgotten this line amongst the very many forgettable ones so suggest you check it out before going down that line, I know because on console we have the event going and I'm playing it every night - this being the moon that had all those unpowered ships being built/repaired that we just destroyed...doesn't seem like they were unmanned to me.
She certainly did try to crack the moon open...just because the weapon wasn't strong enough to actually do that doesn't mean she didn't have clear intentions of doing so, being she literally said as much.
She certainly didn't, because that's literally not how the weapon works, and she knew that. Since when are generic threatening phrases like "I'll desotry everything here!" even if they have no plans to actually destroying everything there, taken literally again?
Or is this one of those "we are going to complain about everything Discovery, or anything Discovery related, does, even if its an incredibly common thing, simply because its Discovery, and we need to find any reason to hate the show/related content, even if its made up!" situations?
J'ula must not have completed her science doctorate at Mo'Kai College which is why she relied on A'Akar, and how he was able to pull off those clever weasel tricks you have brought up to remove her from culpability for much of the conspiracy she lead but didn't understand. Which is it?
Or is this one of those "we are going to complain about everything Discovery, or anything Discovery related, does, even if its an incredibly common thing, simply because its Discovery, and we need to find any reason to hate the show/related content, even if its made up!" situations?
That's lazy arguing - if you can argue just claim people are only arguing because they don't like the show. Seriously, don't pull that nonsense.
There are a LOT of legitimate arguments against the show - I'll never say you can't like it, or you shouldn't like it, I'm *GLAD* that there's a ST that people can enjoy but I personally think it's an awful show for a multitude of very real reasons. People just screaming "you don't like the show because you hate new!" are just being ignorant and gatekeeping against others.
D7 was in Enterprise as I recall...was intended to be a different ship but they used the D7 - on screen canon as I recall. As I said, it was originally to be a D5, a earlier model of the same ship, but they decided in the end to use the D7 because the other ship didn't fit their vision or something like that. So the D7 is on screen prior to Discovery, therefore if you insist that it was entirely invented by her instead of a new version of it or something then you are admitting that Disco is a retcon of the series - yes?
Just want to say that A: It wasn't a D5. It was supposed to be a D4.
n 2001, a new Klingon ship was called for, intended to serve as Vorok's battle cruiser in "Unexpected", season one's fifth episode of the new series, Star Trek: Enterprise. The Enterprise team, understandably exhausted after all the work they had put into the Enterprise pilot episode, were asked to do yet another design at the last minute. However, despite the work put into the design and the built of a new CGI model, it ended up not being used. The result was that a K't'inga-class CGI model was employed for Vorok's battle cruiser that was originally constructed for Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, causing a continuity error, and which had also appeared in another subsequent continuity error in the Star Trek: Voyager episode "Prophecy", as a D7-class battle cruiser.
It is a known continuity error. And it wasn't even a D7 they used, it was a K'Tinga. Does not mean that D7s (or K'Tingas) were around in the 22nd Century whatsoever.
The argument here is moot as the D7 was a new design in the 2250s. A K'Tinga being used in the 2150s was the result of someone being lazy and just drawing on an already existing asset rather than using a supplied model of a retrofied battlecruiser, which would have looked more like this.
The lazy, or lack of models/budget (I'd prefer the former the production department were awesome working with what they had) is also why there is a "K'vort" on screen. The D4/D5 story extends all the way back to an anecdote about Shatner and Nimoy trying to get Rodenberry to loosen up on set. The waters get non canon muddier when the Starfleet Battle wargame gets into it too.
On the mod bit - no one is getting heated - merely asking someone not to resort to gatekeeping or attacks in defending Disco just as you would do if someone was attacking that show.
First off - the K't'inga is a D7, just a later version of it - no need to be pissy about that, it's a silly nitpick. And yes it was meant to be a D4. Though the D5 WAS in service about this time as per DS9 and was pretty much the same design I simply got the numbers backwards.
Besides which it's pretty much irrelevant - it's on screen - Yes it's not what they wanted but they used it because the CGI model showed the windows better than the prepared model. They couldn't get the model done in time and decided to just go with it...they regretted it as it puts the D7 in service for 225 odd years (and yes that does include the D7 later models like the K't'inga.
Besides that - even if they DID use the old model that looks a lot like the D7 doesn't it? The D7 would hardly be called some new miraculous wonder ship after using this, it would simply be an upgrade ala Constitution -> Refit. So not really any great deed by the mighty (sad) L'rell there is there? It's not another great accomplishment.
Trying to blindly defend this person as some miraculous leader of the empire when she can clearly be shown to be mediocre at best is a losing position. The current season of STO was poorly written to get some VAs involved, I have nothing against them, I have nothing against their performances (mostly) but to bring this character back is just plain dumb as is making the terrorist J'ula her number 2. The whole thing is just to cram in some Disco into a storyline that really didn't need it or needed it done better.
First off - the K't'inga is a D7, just a later version of it - no need to be pissy about that, it's a silly nitpick.
While it sure is a silly nitpick, I can't even remember the name 'K't'Inga' ever being used in any movie or episode (not sure about computer-displays though). But that name was already used in the 90's ST-games like Starfleet Academy which in turn was based on the SFB-timeline.
It was also never explicitly stated if the klingon ships in TMP and onwards were D7-class or something entirely new.
In my head, they were K't'Inga-class, because I was playing the contemporary games at the time. In beta-canon, the K't'Inga is the successor to the D7 and not just a refit - just happens to be using the same basic shape of the D7.
Roddenberry apparently loved to retcon, and on the other hand might have said "no it's a D7, just assume it always looked like this", which he also would have said about the Enterprise when TMP was in the making. Which is probably why in narrative, the Refit is still the original Enterprise despite essentially being rebuilt.
Depending on the game you were playing they were all referred to as D7 class, K't'inga was a particular model of D7. There were others like K't'mara etc.
It does make sense though, they were all pretty much using the same frame just with upgrades throughout along the way, pretty much the same as the Connie's (which in the FASA game were referred to as "Enterprise" class when talking about the refits since the Enterprise was the first one to get the upgrade...I always thought that made a lot of sense).
First off - the K't'inga is a D7, just a later version of it - no need to be pissy about that, it's a silly nitpick.
While it sure is a silly nitpick, I can't even remember the name 'K't'Inga' ever being used in any movie or episode (not sure about computer-displays though). But that name was already used in the 90's ST-games like Starfleet Academy which in turn was based on the SFB-timeline.
It was also never explicitly stated if the klingon ships in TMP and onwards were D7-class or something entirely new.
In my head, they were K't'Inga-class, because I was playing the contemporary games at the time. In beta-canon, the K't'Inga is the successor to the D7 and not just a refit - just happens to be using the same basic shape of the D7.
Roddenberry apparently loved to retcon, and on the other hand might have said "no it's a D7, just assume it always looked like this", which he also would have said about the Enterprise when TMP was in the making. Which is probably why in narrative, the Refit is still the original Enterprise despite essentially being rebuilt.
Depending on the game you were playing they were all referred to as D7 class, K't'inga was a particular model of D7. There were others like K't'mara etc. But basically the ships were all of the D7 class since they all used the same basic spaceframe just with changes throughout.
It does make sense though, they were all pretty much using the same frame just with upgrades throughout along the way, pretty much the same as the Connie's (which in the FASA game were referred to as "Enterprise" class when talking about the refits since the Enterprise was the first one to get the upgrade...I always thought that made a lot of sense).
Depending on the game you were playing they were all referred to as D7 class, K't'inga was a particular model of D7.
While this makes sense, in SFA the klingon heavy cruiser was the K't'Inga, in the PC- and console-versions. I didn't get to play KA yet, but it was essentially the "sequel" to SFA, so I assume it's also the K't'Inga. SFC3 also called it the K't'Inga. SFC 1 is an oddball because it uses SFB's naming-conventions for classes. It had the K't'Inga (technically, not by name tho), which was the only D7-chassis with photon-torpedoes (as klingons technically didn't have those in SFB, but TMP came around so they added it as a special variant - yes, SFB is OLD).
ST Legacy is the only more recent game I remember having both, D7 and K't'Inga plus the romulan stormbird.
Depending on the game you were playing they were all referred to as D7 class, K't'inga was a particular model of D7.
While this makes sense, in SFA the klingon heavy cruiser was the K't'Inga, in the PC- and console-versions. I didn't get to play KA yet, but it was essentially the "sequel" to SFA, so I assume it's also the K't'Inga. SFC3 also called it the K't'Inga. SFC 1 is an oddball because it uses SFB's naming-conventions for classes. It had the K't'Inga (technically, not by name tho), which was the only D7-chassis with photon-torpedoes (as klingons technically didn't have those in SFB, but TMP came around so they added it as a special variant - yes, SFB is OLD).
ST Legacy is the only more recent game I remember having both, D7 and K't'Inga plus the romulan stormbird.
I have my original copy of both the FASA tabletop game AND SFB...thanks for the reminder I'm old ;-)
In the FASA one they didn't get torpedoes until the D7M, plus a few of the models exchanged with Romulans to get cloaking technology and some plasma torpedoes all had their own class names. It was probably my favourite of the different table top games of the time and certainly had one of the best timelines of all of them.
yeah it does seem weird since neither Mo'Kai Klingon or Elachi ships uses tetryon, I don't know any ship or faction that uses tetryon weapons, I'm coming up blank and google had been no help what so ever.
Well, I always thought Tetryon was exclusively Tholian and then Tzenkethi. I only ever use it when an Endeavor calls for space Tetryon, but it's probably my least favourite. I almost wish that weapons types were faction bound...phasers for FED, disruptors for KDF, plasma for ROM and polaron for the Dominion. Loads of different variants, but...
Actually romulans using plasma is something new and unique to STO, aside from using plasma torpedoes, romulans have canonically used disruptor weapons on their ships, the Star Navy/Tal Shiar ships still uses disruptors.
Technically, in TOS the Romulans were only shown using disruptors on the D7 design they got from the Klingons, the T'liss never fired anything but plasma torpedoes in Balance of Terror. In fact, a lot of their equipment was Klingon, like their ground weapons, and in The Enterprise Incident they make a classic noob error in transporter security which implies strongly that they were unused to the ramifications of the things and so they most likely got those from the Klingons shortly before the incident as well.
In TNG, dialog identified the beams they fired as phasers part of the time, disruptors some other times, and sometimes they never identified them at all so there is some wiggle room to include plasma beams. The plasma beam thing was fanon for a long time as a speculative beam weapon after TOS before Romulans returned in TNG.
Even previous games were a bit waffly, for instance FASA went with all three and had Romulan ships armed with a mix of phasers, disruptors, and "RBMs" (Romulan Beam Weapons) which were vaguely defined as either gamma-ray phasers or a very narrow and condensed antimatter plasma stream (or something that had some aspects of both).
Where to start with where you are wrong...
First - Did they not say something about not seeing Klingons for like 100 years prior at the very start of the show? I don't see a lot of cold war there compared to what happens later.
I didn't say she didn't last - I said suggested she didn't and that if she did she was a hypocrite for going back on everything she pretended to believe in wanting peace with the Feds. If she was in power she did a crappy job since they were in an actual shooting war prior to the Organians stopping them and I doubt the Federation would have started it.
D7 was in Enterprise as I recall...was intended to be a different ship but they used the D7 - on screen canon as I recall. As I said, it was originally to be a D5, a earlier model of the same ship, but they decided in the end to use the D7 because the other ship didn't fit their vision or something like that. So the D7 is on screen prior to Discovery, therefore if you insist that it was entirely invented by her instead of a new version of it or something then you are admitting that Disco is a retcon of the series - yes?
I don't think there's a "book of L'rell" or any great epics about her, she's a mediocre wannabe who was put in power by the Federation to stop the war. She then blackmailed the Klingon houses to her bidding. So where would they get all the detailed memories to feed into her.
Definitely sounds memorable. Besides, what you are saying is that the current chancellor of the Empire is a programmed soulless clone who was just programmed by the monks of Boreth...so really the monks are the ones in charge since they programmed her right?
J'ula DID try to crack open the moon - she *SAYS* that she will crack open the moon - I accept you may have forgotten this line amongst the very many forgettable ones so suggest you check it out before going down that line, I know because on console we have the event going and I'm playing it every night - this being the moon that had all those unpowered ships being built/repaired that we just destroyed...doesn't seem like they were unmanned to me.
The cold war part points to a severe continuity blunder in DSC, in the first TOS series bible (there were several) it was stated that the recent history of the setting was very similar to real-world 20th century history in that wars happened in about the same places and intensities (except that they were not currently embroiled in a Vietnam conflict equivalent because NBC had hissy fits over the mere suggestion of it, though they did not mention that was the reason why in the writers guide) and that both Enterprise and the cold war were products of their WWII equivalent about twenty years before the show starts.
They did that because it was quicker and easier to get writers up to speed on the setting, especially since the Iowa-class fast battleships Roddenberry apparently based the Enterprise on were in the news a lot back then (because Congress and the Pentagon arguing about sending a few in to support the "police action" war effort), and TOS was written with that "major war twenty years ago leading to the current cold war" framework in place.
DSC on the other hand assumes that there was no conflict with the Klingons twenty years before TOS which leaves all sorts of holes open.
As for the "crack the moon" thing, J'Ula has a track record of loosing her temper and saying stupid things like that, the equivalent of someone raging that they will tear a building apart with their bare hands. Sure, she says she will do it but she was frustrated by the successes of the Alliance raid and in a heated argument with that other Klingon motormouth at the time so it was undoubtedly just that frustration and annoyance talking.
The L'Rell soul thing is believable, it is supported by numerous TOS episodes like What are Little Girls Made Of, Turnabout Intruder, and Return to Tomorrow that show conclusively that humans and other species are a meld of energy creature and flesh (or android). The Klingons are rather mystically-minded so it is not too far fetched an idea that their katras would organize into a virtual Heaven/Hell araingement similar to the psi-tech Unimatrix Zero that psionically gifted victims of assimilation created for themselves to escape their drone existence for a while.
On the mod bit - no one is getting heated - merely asking someone not to resort to gatekeeping or attacks in defending Disco just as you would do if someone was attacking that show.
You two are feeding off each other and escalating. I'm putting my foot down and asking you to let it go. BOTH of you. I respect that there is a debate going on but it is starting to escalate and we've already had to deal with an escalation issue in another thread. I would rather not have another one here.
First off - the K't'inga is a D7, just a later version of it - no need to be pissy about that, it's a silly nitpick. And yes it was meant to be a D4. Though the D5 WAS in service about this time as per DS9 and was pretty much the same design I simply got the numbers backwards.
Besides which it's pretty much irrelevant - it's on screen - Yes it's not what they wanted but they used it because the CGI model showed the windows better than the prepared model. They couldn't get the model done in time and decided to just go with it...they regretted it as it puts the D7 in service for 225 odd years (and yes that does include the D7 later models like the K't'inga.
Besides that - even if they DID use the old model that looks a lot like the D7 doesn't it? The D7 would hardly be called some new miraculous wonder ship after using this, it would simply be an upgrade ala Constitution -> Refit. So not really any great deed by the mighty (sad) L'rell there is there? It's not another great accomplishment.
Again, it is an established Continuity Error. So the ship we see is not what is supposed to be there. Not only that, the ship was not identified as to what class it was. They never called it a D7. So it is an unknown class of battlecruiser, maybe even a personal house design for all we know. The fact remains that it has been established that the D7 class was from the 2250s, and used as a symbol of Klingon unity.
> @rattler2 said: > You two are feeding off each other and escalating. I'm putting my foot down and asking you to let it go. BOTH of you. I respect that there is a debate going on but it is starting to escalate and we've already had to deal with an escalation issue in another thread. I would rather not have another one here. > > > Again, it is an established Continuity Error. So the ship we see is not what is supposed to be there. Not only that, the ship was not identified as to what class it was. They never called it a D7. So it is an unknown class of battlecruiser, maybe even a personal house design for all we know. The fact remains that it has been established that the D7 class was from the 2250s, and used as a symbol of Klingon unity.
You're the mod so you make your rules, I will post no more beyond this.
Apparently gate keeping and being rude is okay in defense of ST:D, but not if you even suspect it's some sort of complaint about it? Nice.
Also you mod foot to tell us to stop discussing when they were the issue and to stop our discussion then jumping in with your own take on the issue (and is wrong) is a truly di*k move. Don't throw your own opinions - and it IS your inipinion on the matter - in the same breath as using the mod stick.
I shall post no more to this thread as per your instructions.
> @rattler2 said:
> You two are feeding off each other and escalating. I'm putting my foot down and asking you to let it go. BOTH of you. I respect that there is a debate going on but it is starting to escalate and we've already had to deal with an escalation issue in another thread. I would rather not have another one here.
>
>
> Again, it is an established Continuity Error. So the ship we see is not what is supposed to be there. Not only that, the ship was not identified as to what class it was. They never called it a D7. So it is an unknown class of battlecruiser, maybe even a personal house design for all we know. The fact remains that it has been established that the D7 class was from the 2250s, and used as a symbol of Klingon unity.
You're the mod so you make your rules, I will post no more beyond this.
Apparently gate keeping and being rude is okay in defense of ST:D, but not if you even suspect it's some sort of complaint about it? Nice.
Also you mod foot to tell us to stop discussing when they were the issue and to stop our discussion then jumping in with your own take on the issue (and is wrong) is a truly di*k move. Don't throw your own opinions - and it IS your inipinion on the matter - in the same breath as using the mod stick.
I shall post no more to this thread as per your instructions.
rattler2, when he was modding, was using a light blue color. When he is not modding, he does not use that. So he did not violate anything by doing so and was being consistent. Also, he is not the one who makes the rules, he enforces them. It is DSC not the one you use and others use which is a type of disease, not the acronym for Star Trek: Discovery and is usually used to show disdain for the show and its creators).
@ucgsquawk#5883 As mentioned above, I use a different color when I'm speaking as a mod. You're more than welcome to continue your debate. All I was asking for was that you tone it down a bit as it was escalating into a more heated or aggressive tone, and had hits of possible gatekeeping in regards to Discovery in what appeared to be an agressive take on subjects involving it, and even taking a few swipes at Som. And I wasn't just aiming it at you either. Som can get passionate about things, and sometimes ramps up too in defense, which lately seems to just make things worse. Escalation begets escalation.
So my request for people to calm down was aimed at both parties.
That is something I was disappointed by all the prequels.
In TNG, Picard said that first contact with the Klingons was DISASTEROUS and lead to war. Before ENT gave us the Augments, I always thought that it would have been terrific is just physical contact with Humans caused a biological reaction in the Klingons. It spread like a plague and they ended up looking like them! That's the reason the Klingons declared war, because it was considered to be biological warfare.
We never really have seen that first encounter, or at least, a first encounter that really was as terrible as Picard said and that lead to their rule of introduction.
In TNG, Picard said that first contact with the Klingons was DISASTEROUS and lead to war.
ENT isn't a great reference for anything but ENT, because previous continuity was ignored, forgotten or changed in more than one way.
Games and beta-canon however consistently mentioned the exact same line about klingons. Disastrous first contact, a long war after that, brittle "peace" after that.
Given what happened to the Vulcans who first encountered a Klingon ship and presuming the same thing happened to United Earth...I'd say losing a ship with all hands counts as 'disastrous' and given Humanity wasn't at that lovey-dovey peacenik hippie TRIBBLE stage yet, an unprovoked attack like that could very easily have led to war...though it was either a very short one, or the klingons backed off quickly, which isn't really something they do, since by the start of Enterprise, things were tense, but there was certainly no active war, hence how Archer could return Klaang to Qo'nos without being immediately fired on after crossing the border.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Given what happened to the Vulcans who first encountered a Klingon ship and presuming the same thing happened to United Earth...
In the end it doesn't really matter all that much in canon material. ENT had the opportunity to pick that up, but didn't. They did the war-thing in DIS S1 later, but that was way beyond a first contact.
As far as STO is concerned, the klingon civil-war-arc was fine for what it was IMO. At the very least the KDF-side of things got a little of that much needed attention.
Enterprise just felt the need to be more advanced than it should of. I would have loved their first mission to be returning Vulcans home (why they felt the need to basically make the Vulcan bad guys is beyond me) and for the ship to have no weapons whatsoever. Let Starfleet have been naïve and just on a mission of exploration...with no idea what was out there.
They should have had the disastrous first contact, the Enterprise should have been JJ'd, you could have had the excuse of them being stranded in space, because no one could help them, etc.
Polarizing the hull, Reed SINGLE-HANDEDLY creating red alert, phasers that could stop the Borg, transporters that could remove components in battle...it was all too much. A simpler and better written series would have been terrific. I will say that I've newfound appreciation for it compared to Disco and I just wish that would get cancelled. Let another series try and get it right.
Enterprise just felt the need to be more advanced than it should of. I would have loved their first mission to be returning Vulcans home (why they felt the need to basically make the Vulcan bad guys is beyond me) and for the ship to have no weapons whatsoever. Let Starfleet have been naïve and just on a mission of exploration...with no idea what was out there.
They should have had the disastrous first contact, the Enterprise should have been JJ'd, you could have had the excuse of them being stranded in space, because no one could help them, etc.
Polarizing the hull, Reed SINGLE-HANDEDLY creating red alert, phasers that could stop the Borg, transporters that could remove components in battle...it was all too much. A simpler and better written series would have been terrific. I will say that I've newfound appreciation for it compared to Disco and I just wish that would get cancelled. Let another series try and get it right.
Continuity has never been the strongsuit of Star Trek IMO. If it was, they wouldn't even have viewscreens in ENT.
It wasn't the ENT people who wanted to bring everything from various other series into the timeline before it should have, it was the Paramount executives who couldn't understand the concept of passing time and wanted it to be like Star Wars where nothing really changes much tech wise over time and you can mix and match between centuries or even millennia.
The Enterprise in ENT was originally supposed to be something like the Daedalus class but the execs would have none of that and insisted they use an Akira class from the latest movie when the series was being put together. Even normally formula-bogged and cautious Berman spoke out against that idiotic idea and between him and Drexler they just barely were able to get them to agree to adjust the Akira a bit to make it "unique", and Drexler was able to put enough P38 details in (and shrink it a bit) to give it a quaint feel.
Likewise they had intended to stick with plasma bolt weapons both on the ground and ship-mounted, along with the nuclear missiles, for the entire series but the corporate execs insisted that they had to use phasers, photons, and all the other familiar things from the other series so they had to come up with the silly sounding distortions of the names to placate them without totally destroying the already established background.
The polarized armor was always a part of Trek's past though it was presumably supposed to act more like real armor than the ersatz shields they ended up as. The structural integrity fields are the modern-trek descendent of that tech. The ship was supposed to get more beat-up looking and patched together as time went on between yard visits but every time they tried it it got nixed from above.
The creative staff got fed up with that always pristine thing and pushed back with the pair of episodes Minefield and Dead Stop which got the execs to loosen up a bit when the favorable feedback to those episodes came in, but not by much (especially since the execs also wanted to keep the show rigidly locked into the one-year-per-season thing and the ship would have taken months to reach a UESPA shipyard during most of the show for that visual damage reset).
As for general continuity, the biggest offender before DSC was Paramount movie division, most likely because movies were usually one-shot productions where continuity was not a factor. It wasn't until the Marvel movies that movie companies finally got the idea hammered home that continuity and co-ordination was a good thing. Of course for Trek that was not helped by the fact that Paramount actually wanted to do Star Wars and Star Trek was the only vehicle in position to grab some of the Star Wars viewers so they corrupted the original with Star Wars-like conventions in pursuit of it (and the weird TOS contempt that was in its early stages back then probably didn't help either).
Why wouldn't they have viewscreens in ENT? Technically they should not have even had the coverless windows they did since the ship was supposed to rely an armor and transparent aluminum would not do for that. They should have had even more viewscreens than they did so people could see out in various directions without compromising defense.
The only real question should have been were all those viewscreens the holographic-window type used in all the later-set series from TOS onwards or should they have been more mundane two-dimensional ones, but since we are so close to depth-showing screens today I personally think that the answer to that question of holographic-window style screens would be a no-brainer.
As for the OP's question about tetryon, since the Mo'kai were experimenting with weaponizing interdimensional fungus they may have tried using extra-dimensional particles like tetryon (and possibly nadion) and decided to recoup some of the (failed) research and development costs by building a few easily swapped tetryon weapons like the space and ground mines.
We never really have seen that first encounter, or at least, a first encounter that really was as terrible as Picard said and that lead to their rule of introduction.
If you think about it, First Contact with the Klingons was rather cold. Since then the Klingons had been antagonistic towards United Earth, then basically just stayed behind their own borders for a hundred years. NO ONE really knew what the Klingons were up to except for some raiding parties until T'Kuvma wanted a war to unite the Empire. So working backwards, we can safely say that Picard was technically correct.
Polarizing the hull, Reed SINGLE-HANDEDLY creating red alert, phasers that could stop the Borg, transporters that could remove components in battle...it was all too much.
Well... Starfleet didn't have shield technology yet. So it kinda makes sense that they'd have some kind of system to basically increase the hull's durability somehow.
It was shown that United Earth Starfleet didn't HAVE a system at all. Reed started coming up with ideas due to the fact that Enterprise kept ending up in more and more tactical situations and wanted to streamline the process of prepping the ship for battle as the current non system was extremely clunky. So it makes sense that the first long range explorer might pioneer a Tactical Alert System.
The Phase Pistols weren't Borg Killers. All that did was actually develop the variable settings we see in later Phaser models. Before that the Phase Pistol literally only had two settings, stun and kill. Out of necessity to deal with an unknown threat they made a modification to make settings variable.
Well... the Transporter was only recently rated for Biological Matter, and since the NX class didn't have shields it was easier to use the Transporter more often.
So working backwards, we can safely say that Picard was technically correct.
Well... Starfleet didn't have shield technology yet. So it kinda makes sense that they'd have some kind of system to basically increase the hull's durability somehow.
It was shown that United Earth Starfleet didn't HAVE a system at all. Reed started coming up with ideas due to the fact that Enterprise kept ending up in more and more tactical situations and wanted to streamline the process of prepping the ship for battle as the current non system was extremely clunky. So it makes sense that the first long range explorer might pioneer a Tactical Alert System.
The Phase Pistols weren't Borg Killers. All that did was actually develop the variable settings we see in later Phaser models. Before that the Phase Pistol literally only had two settings, stun and kill. Out of necessity to deal with an unknown threat they made a modification to make settings variable.
Well... the Transporter was only recently rated for Biological Matter, and since the NX class didn't have shields it was easier to use the Transporter more often.
If you ask me, DIS *kinda* picked up the slack from ENT with the beginning of the klingon war. ENT really downplayed what Picard would say a few hundred years later. Or he was just being dramatic, Picard did that quite often when doing his diplomacy-thing.
As for the systems, I never had a problem with Reed basically developing the "tactical alert"-procedure or having to do the final montage of the first batch of shipbased weapons on his own while the ship was in transit. That felt genuinely real IMO.
The NX-01 was rushed out of the dock because Archer wanted to prove a point to the VHC, so nothing was finalized. From equipment, to the training and ruleset for crew-behaviour (understandably so, it was the first mission of that kind).
Improvising with the transporter was one of the smartest things one could do if all else fails. They *had* the transporter, so using it in combat was an option (in SFC you could beam mines in front of a hostile too, so they can't evade).
The whole improvising and learning-by-doing stuff was actually one of the better aspects (at least early in the show, as it quickly faded).
What bothered me about ENT, personally, was the overall tech-level everyone seemed to already have; it was too close to even post-TOS rather than being super-crude, as Balance of Terror implied. And whatever the clash was between studio and writers, what matters in the end is what ended up on screen.
Honestly, Balance of Terror was kind of a dumb episode in a lot of ways.
The idea that species technologically developed enough to travel large distances of space in something shorter then years didn't have the space on a ship for prisoners, and were flinging nukes at each other, is nonsense.
Hell, the idea no one knew what a Romulan looked like was even more dumb. Like, even IF they couldn't hold prisoners, in what war wouldn't you go to a destroyed enemy ship, and like take a look around in an EV suit to see if you could recover a body to study it? That's like, basic intel gathers 101.
Yes, but the point I'm trying to make is if Trek was all about its own continuity, ENT would have been quite different - the quality of BoT itself isn't what I'm getting at. Just the information that was given. Going there I'd say BoT was one of the better TOS-episodes, but that isn't saying all that much tbh as I don't enjoy TOS all that much. When I was a kid and both TOS-reruns and the fresh TNG were on TV, I preferred TNG. Nowadays, I think they're both quite flawed.
Comments
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
First - Did they not say something about not seeing Klingons for like 100 years prior at the very start of the show? I don't see a lot of cold war there compared to what happens later.
I didn't say she didn't last - I said suggested she didn't and that if she did she was a hypocrite for going back on everything she pretended to believe in wanting peace with the Feds. If she was in power she did a crappy job since they were in an actual shooting war prior to the Organians stopping them and I doubt the Federation would have started it.
D7 was in Enterprise as I recall...was intended to be a different ship but they used the D7 - on screen canon as I recall. As I said, it was originally to be a D5, a earlier model of the same ship, but they decided in the end to use the D7 because the other ship didn't fit their vision or something like that. So the D7 is on screen prior to Discovery, therefore if you insist that it was entirely invented by her instead of a new version of it or something then you are admitting that Disco is a retcon of the series - yes?
I don't think there's a "book of L'rell" or any great epics about her, she's a mediocre wannabe who was put in power by the Federation to stop the war. She then blackmailed the Klingon houses to her bidding. So where would they get all the detailed memories to feed into her.
Definitely sounds memorable. Besides, what you are saying is that the current chancellor of the Empire is a programmed soulless clone who was just programmed by the monks of Boreth...so really the monks are the ones in charge since they programmed her right?
J'ula DID try to crack open the moon - she *SAYS* that she will crack open the moon - I accept you may have forgotten this line amongst the very many forgettable ones so suggest you check it out before going down that line, I know because on console we have the event going and I'm playing it every night - this being the moon that had all those unpowered ships being built/repaired that we just destroyed...doesn't seem like they were unmanned to me.
J'ula must not have completed her science doctorate at Mo'Kai College which is why she relied on A'Akar, and how he was able to pull off those clever weasel tricks you have brought up to remove her from culpability for much of the conspiracy she lead but didn't understand. Which is it?
That's lazy arguing - if you can argue just claim people are only arguing because they don't like the show. Seriously, don't pull that nonsense.
There are a LOT of legitimate arguments against the show - I'll never say you can't like it, or you shouldn't like it, I'm *GLAD* that there's a ST that people can enjoy but I personally think it's an awful show for a multitude of very real reasons. People just screaming "you don't like the show because you hate new!" are just being ignorant and gatekeeping against others.
Just want to say that A: It wasn't a D5. It was supposed to be a D4.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/D4_class_(concept)
It is a known continuity error. And it wasn't even a D7 they used, it was a K'Tinga. Does not mean that D7s (or K'Tingas) were around in the 22nd Century whatsoever.
The argument here is moot as the D7 was a new design in the 2250s. A K'Tinga being used in the 2150s was the result of someone being lazy and just drawing on an already existing asset rather than using a supplied model of a retrofied battlecruiser, which would have looked more like this.
The lazy, or lack of models/budget (I'd prefer the former the production department were awesome working with what they had) is also why there is a "K'vort" on screen. The D4/D5 story extends all the way back to an anecdote about Shatner and Nimoy trying to get Rodenberry to loosen up on set. The waters get non canon muddier when the Starfleet Battle wargame gets into it too.
First off - the K't'inga is a D7, just a later version of it - no need to be pissy about that, it's a silly nitpick. And yes it was meant to be a D4. Though the D5 WAS in service about this time as per DS9 and was pretty much the same design I simply got the numbers backwards.
Besides which it's pretty much irrelevant - it's on screen - Yes it's not what they wanted but they used it because the CGI model showed the windows better than the prepared model. They couldn't get the model done in time and decided to just go with it...they regretted it as it puts the D7 in service for 225 odd years (and yes that does include the D7 later models like the K't'inga.
Besides that - even if they DID use the old model that looks a lot like the D7 doesn't it? The D7 would hardly be called some new miraculous wonder ship after using this, it would simply be an upgrade ala Constitution -> Refit. So not really any great deed by the mighty (sad) L'rell there is there? It's not another great accomplishment.
Trying to blindly defend this person as some miraculous leader of the empire when she can clearly be shown to be mediocre at best is a losing position. The current season of STO was poorly written to get some VAs involved, I have nothing against them, I have nothing against their performances (mostly) but to bring this character back is just plain dumb as is making the terrorist J'ula her number 2. The whole thing is just to cram in some Disco into a storyline that really didn't need it or needed it done better.
While it sure is a silly nitpick, I can't even remember the name 'K't'Inga' ever being used in any movie or episode (not sure about computer-displays though). But that name was already used in the 90's ST-games like Starfleet Academy which in turn was based on the SFB-timeline.
It was also never explicitly stated if the klingon ships in TMP and onwards were D7-class or something entirely new.
In my head, they were K't'Inga-class, because I was playing the contemporary games at the time. In beta-canon, the K't'Inga is the successor to the D7 and not just a refit - just happens to be using the same basic shape of the D7.
Roddenberry apparently loved to retcon, and on the other hand might have said "no it's a D7, just assume it always looked like this", which he also would have said about the Enterprise when TMP was in the making. Which is probably why in narrative, the Refit is still the original Enterprise despite essentially being rebuilt.
It does make sense though, they were all pretty much using the same frame just with upgrades throughout along the way, pretty much the same as the Connie's (which in the FASA game were referred to as "Enterprise" class when talking about the refits since the Enterprise was the first one to get the upgrade...I always thought that made a lot of sense).
Depending on the game you were playing they were all referred to as D7 class, K't'inga was a particular model of D7. There were others like K't'mara etc. But basically the ships were all of the D7 class since they all used the same basic spaceframe just with changes throughout.
It does make sense though, they were all pretty much using the same frame just with upgrades throughout along the way, pretty much the same as the Connie's (which in the FASA game were referred to as "Enterprise" class when talking about the refits since the Enterprise was the first one to get the upgrade...I always thought that made a lot of sense).
While this makes sense, in SFA the klingon heavy cruiser was the K't'Inga, in the PC- and console-versions. I didn't get to play KA yet, but it was essentially the "sequel" to SFA, so I assume it's also the K't'Inga. SFC3 also called it the K't'Inga. SFC 1 is an oddball because it uses SFB's naming-conventions for classes. It had the K't'Inga (technically, not by name tho), which was the only D7-chassis with photon-torpedoes (as klingons technically didn't have those in SFB, but TMP came around so they added it as a special variant - yes, SFB is OLD).
ST Legacy is the only more recent game I remember having both, D7 and K't'Inga plus the romulan stormbird.
I have my original copy of both the FASA tabletop game AND SFB...thanks for the reminder I'm old ;-)
In the FASA one they didn't get torpedoes until the D7M, plus a few of the models exchanged with Romulans to get cloaking technology and some plasma torpedoes all had their own class names. It was probably my favourite of the different table top games of the time and certainly had one of the best timelines of all of them.
Technically, in TOS the Romulans were only shown using disruptors on the D7 design they got from the Klingons, the T'liss never fired anything but plasma torpedoes in Balance of Terror. In fact, a lot of their equipment was Klingon, like their ground weapons, and in The Enterprise Incident they make a classic noob error in transporter security which implies strongly that they were unused to the ramifications of the things and so they most likely got those from the Klingons shortly before the incident as well.
In TNG, dialog identified the beams they fired as phasers part of the time, disruptors some other times, and sometimes they never identified them at all so there is some wiggle room to include plasma beams. The plasma beam thing was fanon for a long time as a speculative beam weapon after TOS before Romulans returned in TNG.
Even previous games were a bit waffly, for instance FASA went with all three and had Romulan ships armed with a mix of phasers, disruptors, and "RBMs" (Romulan Beam Weapons) which were vaguely defined as either gamma-ray phasers or a very narrow and condensed antimatter plasma stream (or something that had some aspects of both).
The cold war part points to a severe continuity blunder in DSC, in the first TOS series bible (there were several) it was stated that the recent history of the setting was very similar to real-world 20th century history in that wars happened in about the same places and intensities (except that they were not currently embroiled in a Vietnam conflict equivalent because NBC had hissy fits over the mere suggestion of it, though they did not mention that was the reason why in the writers guide) and that both Enterprise and the cold war were products of their WWII equivalent about twenty years before the show starts.
They did that because it was quicker and easier to get writers up to speed on the setting, especially since the Iowa-class fast battleships Roddenberry apparently based the Enterprise on were in the news a lot back then (because Congress and the Pentagon arguing about sending a few in to support the "police action" war effort), and TOS was written with that "major war twenty years ago leading to the current cold war" framework in place.
DSC on the other hand assumes that there was no conflict with the Klingons twenty years before TOS which leaves all sorts of holes open.
As for the "crack the moon" thing, J'Ula has a track record of loosing her temper and saying stupid things like that, the equivalent of someone raging that they will tear a building apart with their bare hands. Sure, she says she will do it but she was frustrated by the successes of the Alliance raid and in a heated argument with that other Klingon motormouth at the time so it was undoubtedly just that frustration and annoyance talking.
The L'Rell soul thing is believable, it is supported by numerous TOS episodes like What are Little Girls Made Of, Turnabout Intruder, and Return to Tomorrow that show conclusively that humans and other species are a meld of energy creature and flesh (or android). The Klingons are rather mystically-minded so it is not too far fetched an idea that their katras would organize into a virtual Heaven/Hell araingement similar to the psi-tech Unimatrix Zero that psionically gifted victims of assimilation created for themselves to escape their drone existence for a while.
Again, it is an established Continuity Error. So the ship we see is not what is supposed to be there. Not only that, the ship was not identified as to what class it was. They never called it a D7. So it is an unknown class of battlecruiser, maybe even a personal house design for all we know. The fact remains that it has been established that the D7 class was from the 2250s, and used as a symbol of Klingon unity.
> You two are feeding off each other and escalating. I'm putting my foot down and asking you to let it go. BOTH of you. I respect that there is a debate going on but it is starting to escalate and we've already had to deal with an escalation issue in another thread. I would rather not have another one here.
>
>
> Again, it is an established Continuity Error. So the ship we see is not what is supposed to be there. Not only that, the ship was not identified as to what class it was. They never called it a D7. So it is an unknown class of battlecruiser, maybe even a personal house design for all we know. The fact remains that it has been established that the D7 class was from the 2250s, and used as a symbol of Klingon unity.
You're the mod so you make your rules, I will post no more beyond this.
Apparently gate keeping and being rude is okay in defense of ST:D, but not if you even suspect it's some sort of complaint about it? Nice.
Also you mod foot to tell us to stop discussing when they were the issue and to stop our discussion then jumping in with your own take on the issue (and is wrong) is a truly di*k move. Don't throw your own opinions - and it IS your inipinion on the matter - in the same breath as using the mod stick.
I shall post no more to this thread as per your instructions.
rattler2, when he was modding, was using a light blue color. When he is not modding, he does not use that. So he did not violate anything by doing so and was being consistent. Also, he is not the one who makes the rules, he enforces them. It is DSC not the one you use and others use which is a type of disease, not the acronym for Star Trek: Discovery and is usually used to show disdain for the show and its creators).
So my request for people to calm down was aimed at both parties.
In TNG, Picard said that first contact with the Klingons was DISASTEROUS and lead to war. Before ENT gave us the Augments, I always thought that it would have been terrific is just physical contact with Humans caused a biological reaction in the Klingons. It spread like a plague and they ended up looking like them! That's the reason the Klingons declared war, because it was considered to be biological warfare.
We never really have seen that first encounter, or at least, a first encounter that really was as terrible as Picard said and that lead to their rule of introduction.
ENT isn't a great reference for anything but ENT, because previous continuity was ignored, forgotten or changed in more than one way.
Games and beta-canon however consistently mentioned the exact same line about klingons. Disastrous first contact, a long war after that, brittle "peace" after that.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
In the end it doesn't really matter all that much in canon material. ENT had the opportunity to pick that up, but didn't. They did the war-thing in DIS S1 later, but that was way beyond a first contact.
As far as STO is concerned, the klingon civil-war-arc was fine for what it was IMO. At the very least the KDF-side of things got a little of that much needed attention.
They should have had the disastrous first contact, the Enterprise should have been JJ'd, you could have had the excuse of them being stranded in space, because no one could help them, etc.
Polarizing the hull, Reed SINGLE-HANDEDLY creating red alert, phasers that could stop the Borg, transporters that could remove components in battle...it was all too much. A simpler and better written series would have been terrific. I will say that I've newfound appreciation for it compared to Disco and I just wish that would get cancelled. Let another series try and get it right.
Continuity has never been the strongsuit of Star Trek IMO. If it was, they wouldn't even have viewscreens in ENT.
It wasn't the ENT people who wanted to bring everything from various other series into the timeline before it should have, it was the Paramount executives who couldn't understand the concept of passing time and wanted it to be like Star Wars where nothing really changes much tech wise over time and you can mix and match between centuries or even millennia.
The Enterprise in ENT was originally supposed to be something like the Daedalus class but the execs would have none of that and insisted they use an Akira class from the latest movie when the series was being put together. Even normally formula-bogged and cautious Berman spoke out against that idiotic idea and between him and Drexler they just barely were able to get them to agree to adjust the Akira a bit to make it "unique", and Drexler was able to put enough P38 details in (and shrink it a bit) to give it a quaint feel.
Likewise they had intended to stick with plasma bolt weapons both on the ground and ship-mounted, along with the nuclear missiles, for the entire series but the corporate execs insisted that they had to use phasers, photons, and all the other familiar things from the other series so they had to come up with the silly sounding distortions of the names to placate them without totally destroying the already established background.
The polarized armor was always a part of Trek's past though it was presumably supposed to act more like real armor than the ersatz shields they ended up as. The structural integrity fields are the modern-trek descendent of that tech. The ship was supposed to get more beat-up looking and patched together as time went on between yard visits but every time they tried it it got nixed from above.
The creative staff got fed up with that always pristine thing and pushed back with the pair of episodes Minefield and Dead Stop which got the execs to loosen up a bit when the favorable feedback to those episodes came in, but not by much (especially since the execs also wanted to keep the show rigidly locked into the one-year-per-season thing and the ship would have taken months to reach a UESPA shipyard during most of the show for that visual damage reset).
As for general continuity, the biggest offender before DSC was Paramount movie division, most likely because movies were usually one-shot productions where continuity was not a factor. It wasn't until the Marvel movies that movie companies finally got the idea hammered home that continuity and co-ordination was a good thing. Of course for Trek that was not helped by the fact that Paramount actually wanted to do Star Wars and Star Trek was the only vehicle in position to grab some of the Star Wars viewers so they corrupted the original with Star Wars-like conventions in pursuit of it (and the weird TOS contempt that was in its early stages back then probably didn't help either).
Why wouldn't they have viewscreens in ENT? Technically they should not have even had the coverless windows they did since the ship was supposed to rely an armor and transparent aluminum would not do for that. They should have had even more viewscreens than they did so people could see out in various directions without compromising defense.
The only real question should have been were all those viewscreens the holographic-window type used in all the later-set series from TOS onwards or should they have been more mundane two-dimensional ones, but since we are so close to depth-showing screens today I personally think that the answer to that question of holographic-window style screens would be a no-brainer.
As for the OP's question about tetryon, since the Mo'kai were experimenting with weaponizing interdimensional fungus they may have tried using extra-dimensional particles like tetryon (and possibly nadion) and decided to recoup some of the (failed) research and development costs by building a few easily swapped tetryon weapons like the space and ground mines.
If you think about it, First Contact with the Klingons was rather cold. Since then the Klingons had been antagonistic towards United Earth, then basically just stayed behind their own borders for a hundred years. NO ONE really knew what the Klingons were up to except for some raiding parties until T'Kuvma wanted a war to unite the Empire. So working backwards, we can safely say that Picard was technically correct.
If you ask me, DIS *kinda* picked up the slack from ENT with the beginning of the klingon war. ENT really downplayed what Picard would say a few hundred years later. Or he was just being dramatic, Picard did that quite often when doing his diplomacy-thing.
As for the systems, I never had a problem with Reed basically developing the "tactical alert"-procedure or having to do the final montage of the first batch of shipbased weapons on his own while the ship was in transit. That felt genuinely real IMO.
The NX-01 was rushed out of the dock because Archer wanted to prove a point to the VHC, so nothing was finalized. From equipment, to the training and ruleset for crew-behaviour (understandably so, it was the first mission of that kind).
Improvising with the transporter was one of the smartest things one could do if all else fails. They *had* the transporter, so using it in combat was an option (in SFC you could beam mines in front of a hostile too, so they can't evade).
The whole improvising and learning-by-doing stuff was actually one of the better aspects (at least early in the show, as it quickly faded).
What bothered me about ENT, personally, was the overall tech-level everyone seemed to already have; it was too close to even post-TOS rather than being super-crude, as Balance of Terror implied. And whatever the clash was between studio and writers, what matters in the end is what ended up on screen.
Yes, but the point I'm trying to make is if Trek was all about its own continuity, ENT would have been quite different - the quality of BoT itself isn't what I'm getting at. Just the information that was given. Going there I'd say BoT was one of the better TOS-episodes, but that isn't saying all that much tbh as I don't enjoy TOS all that much. When I was a kid and both TOS-reruns and the fresh TNG were on TV, I preferred TNG. Nowadays, I think they're both quite flawed.